Topic: Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

[Nephi]

1054 priests signed it. How does that compare to the number of Catholics who coming forward with accounts of being sexually abused by priests?

Is that relevant for the soundness of their claims? If not, leave your mud-slinging elsewhere.

I'll give you a hint: it's not relevant.

[Monk Vasyl]

1054 priests signed it. How does that compare to the number of Catholics who coming forward with accounts of being sexually abused by priests?

Is that relevant for the soundness of their claims? If not, leave your mud-slinging elsewhere.

I'll give you a hint: it's not relevant.

Glad I'm not the only one to feel that its NOT relevant.

[Santagranddad]

Amen

[orthonorm]

I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.

The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

There's apparently a trend of Orthodox Christians becoming gay Jews. I know at least three.

In this economy, what else can you do?

[mike]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

[vamrat]

The main thing with gay marriage that concerns me is, will freedom of religion be maintained?  I will vote 'no' on any law that does not have specific clauses guaranteeing that a church is not required to marry anyone and that marriage services can be denied at the discretion of the church. 

If Catholic orphanages are indeed being persecuted for refusing adoptions to homosexual than I also find this disturbing, as long as the church is not receiving state funds for operation.


Personally, I disagree with the concept of civil marriage in general as it is nothing more than a lopsided financial contract.  But as it is, if divorce is legal than I really don't care if gays get civil marriages.  What do you expect from marriage in Babylon?

[orthonorm]

The main thing with gay marriage that concerns me is, will freedom of religion be maintained?  I will vote 'no' on any law that does not have specific clauses guaranteeing that a church is not required to marry anyone and that marriage services can be denied at the discretion of the church. 

If Catholic orphanages are indeed being persecuted for refusing adoptions to homosexual than I also find this disturbing, as long as the church is not receiving state funds for operation.


Personally, I disagree with the concept of civil marriage in general as it is nothing more than a lopsided financial contract.  But as it is, if divorce is legal than I really don't care if gays get civil marriages.  What do you expect from marriage in Babylon?

Two things:

[redacted. darn news.]

[genesisone]

The main thing with gay marriage that concerns me is, will freedom of religion be maintained?  I will vote 'no' on any law that does not have specific clauses guaranteeing that a church is not required to marry anyone and that marriage services can be denied at the discretion of the church. 

The solution is very simple. Churches should play no role in the civil aspects of marriage (however defined by the state). An Orthodox wedding is a blessing of a union between a man and a woman. We need change nothing - other than omitting the signing of legal documents in connection with the service. In fact, I believe it would make the service an even more sacred event than it is likely often treated.

How heterodox churches deal with it is their problem, though it wouldn't surprise me that they take our lead as a model.

Priests (and other clergymen) would simply refuse all weddings in which they act as agents of the civil authority.

Couples can easily get required legal documents at a city hall, courthouse, or whatever the local system provides.

[vamrat]

The main thing with gay marriage that concerns me is, will freedom of religion be maintained?  I will vote 'no' on any law that does not have specific clauses guaranteeing that a church is not required to marry anyone and that marriage services can be denied at the discretion of the church. 

The solution is very simple. Churches should play no role in the civil aspects of marriage (however defined by the state). An Orthodox wedding is a blessing of a union between a man and a woman. We need change nothing - other than omitting the signing of legal documents in connection with the service. In fact, I believe it would make the service an even more sacred event than it is likely often treated.

How heterodox churches deal with it is their problem, though it wouldn't surprise me that they take our lead as a model.

Priests (and other clergymen) would simply refuse all weddings in which they act as agents of the civil authority.

Couples can easily get required legal documents at a city hall, courthouse, or whatever the local system provides.

That would solve the problem pretty quickly.

[Jetavan]

If Catholic orphanages are indeed being persecuted for refusing adoptions to homosexual than I also find this disturbing, as long as the church is not receiving state funds for operation.

"The conservative Irish religious group, the Iona Institute, has come out in favor of adoption by gay couples, over “Romanian-style” orphanages.

David Quinn, the director of the group, that promotes marriage and religion in society, made these comments after a High Court judge ruled that banning single people and gay couple from adopting children, in Northern Ireland, was discriminatory.
....
David Quinn said: 'If the choice is between being left in an orphanage and being raised by a loving single parent, a loving same-sex couple, or a loving unmarried couple, then absolutely the child has to be adopted.

'Institutions, even when they are well run, are awful places for a child to grow up in. I've seen this and there's no question about it.'"

[Santagranddad]

British Government assurances of a quadruple lock protecting religious groups exercising their conscience in respect of same sex marriage are all very well but in an increasingly secular Europe will those assurances stand up. There are always those who will push at any boundaries, as history has demonstrated.

So I do not believe Christians and others can sit back and say, that's alright then. On the other hand 'over the top' reactions as have seen on the part of the Roman Catholic Church do those with reservations about same sex marriage no favours.

[Andrew Crook]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

LOL this sounds like something a person such as Pat Robertson would say.  It's all those danged gays and atheists fault, they're ruining our society haha.   I don't see why anyone would seek to limit them practicing their faith, however they should not be in positions of power to enforce their idea of morality upon the rest of us who disagree with it.

[Antonis]

I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.

The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism

Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Of course, modern Judaism itself is just fake since Orthodoxy is the true successor to Israel but that's beside the point. I'm sure pretend Jews like the Reformed and Conservatives are just going to destroy the Jewish faith and turn more of them to atheism, it's already been happening.

Do you have a point other than spreading your misinformation-fueled absurdities?

He's supporting his opinion just as much as you are. He could say the same about you, and frankly, the scriptures are clearly on his side. Any disagreement with that is a "misinformation-fueled absurdity."

[Sakeneko]

The solution is very simple. Churches should play no role in the civil aspects of marriage (however defined by the state). An Orthodox wedding is a blessing of a union between a man and a woman. We need change nothing - other than omitting the signing of legal documents in connection with the service. In fact, I believe it would make the service an even more sacred event than it is likely often treated.

How heterodox churches deal with it is their problem, though it wouldn't surprise me that they take our lead as a model.

Priests (and other clergymen) would simply refuse all weddings in which they act as agents of the civil authority.

Couples can easily get required legal documents at a city hall, courthouse, or whatever the local system provides.

Too simple.  Too easy.  Too logical.   And it just might work. 

There are other issues in the UK, but the first amendment appears to protect us in the U.S. from the worst of them. 

[primuspilus]

1054 priests signed it. How does that compare to the number of Catholics who coming forward with accounts of being sexually abused by priests?

It doesn't compare. They are 2 completely separate issues.

PP

[vamrat]

1054 priests signed it. How does that compare to the number of Catholics who coming forward with accounts of being sexually abused by priests?

It doesn't compare. They are 2 completely separate issues.

PP

Indeed, the 1,054 Priests are doing something that doesn't grant cash and prizes.  I always suspect the accuser when settlements are involved.

[88Devin12]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

[Andrew Crook]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Thanks for helping us realize some of us were never really Orthodox.......... lol

[biro]

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Lots of modern Jews actually did die horrible deaths, not too long ago.

Do you think at all before you set fingers to keyboard?

If half of the people who post here are as angry in real life as they are on this board, we're all lost.

[Charles Martel]

In a way this circles back to us.  Christians have maltreated gays for centuries, instead of being charitable to them and helping them with their struggle, they were maligned and abused.  Now they have "rights" on their side, this is going back to bite us.  Because of our track record for handling this issue, no one is taking our side.

What? What are you talking about? What "christians" might that be?

If anything, the followers of Christ have went out of their way to placate these sodmites. Why don't they go take their chances with the Moslems or pagans and come back and tell Christians how awful we "treated them.

This whole "gay bashing" by the Church and Christians is really getting old and one of the biggest lies perpetuated out there.

Enough already.

[Charles Martel]

1054 priests, lol it seems fate is not without a sense of irony

Hmmm..... Why should that specific number mean something to me?

I don't know, I guess it doesn't. 

[Charles Martel]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

What? Not to call sin and error for what it is? And how is that some way considered "compassion?

What in God's holy name is wrong with "christians" today, especially on the Internet?

I swear half the Christian Internet is choke full of homosexuals or homosexual-sympathizers.

If that's the attitude you have, then yes, good thing you're not RC indeed.

[mike]

[Andrew Crook]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

What? Not to call sin and error for what it is? And how is that some way considered "compassion?

What in God's holy name is wrong with "christians" today, especially on the Internet?

I swear half the Christian Internet is choke full of homosexuals or homosexual-sympathizers.

If that's the attitude you have, then yes, good thing you're not RC indeed.

The internet never fails to be a source of entertainment.   I think I came from a very different planet...  

[Andrew Crook]

LOLOLOL    The fear that people have over this, is beyond me..

[biro]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

What? Not to call sin and error for what it is? And how is that some way considered "compassion?

What in God's holy name is wrong with "christians" today, especially on the Internet?

I swear half the Christian Internet is choke full of homosexuals or homosexual-sympathizers.

If that's the attitude you have, then yes, good thing you're not RC indeed.

Charles, what is your obsession?

And why do you talk like a maiden aunt who grew up in the 1930s?

[Antonis]

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Lots of modern Jews actually did die horrible deaths, not too long ago.

Do you think at all before you set fingers to keyboard?

If half of the people who post here are as angry in real life as they are on this board, we're all lost.

That is clearly not what he meant at all. Nice try at guilting him though.

[Nicene]

I wouldn't put it impossible any european government to force churches to marry gay couples some time in the future.

To my knowledge no Orthodox churches in Britain conduct legal marriages (certainly I was told that the Ecumenical Patriarchate priests here need to see a marriage certificate first) and the same is actually true back in Romania. You have to bring your civil wedding certificate to the the priest before he will marry you. As long as that's the case, I fail to see how any government could force the Orthodox Church to 'marry' people of the same sex. Unfortunately for those churches, such as the Anglicans, that do conduct legal as well as religious marriage, I suspect you may be correct.

James

That hte church would discriminate and not hold equal certain people may be thought of as unfair or violating the rights of people. I suspect this attitutude will only grow in europe, even here in New Zealand and I would not be surprised by it.

[jmbejdl]

I wouldn't put it impossible any european government to force churches to marry gay couples some time in the future.

To my knowledge no Orthodox churches in Britain conduct legal marriages (certainly I was told that the Ecumenical Patriarchate priests here need to see a marriage certificate first) and the same is actually true back in Romania. You have to bring your civil wedding certificate to the the priest before he will marry you. As long as that's the case, I fail to see how any government could force the Orthodox Church to 'marry' people of the same sex. Unfortunately for those churches, such as the Anglicans, that do conduct legal as well as religious marriage, I suspect you may be correct.

James

That hte church would discriminate and not hold equal certain people may be thought of as unfair or violating the rights of people. I suspect this attitutude will only grow in europe, even here in New Zealand and I would not be surprised by it.

I don't doubt that people will think it so - a lot of them already do - but if the Church is not involved in anyway in the legal aspects of marriage and is not acting as a business (for some reason here the state seems to think that if you offer services for sale you have to offer them to everyone impartially), which it isn't, I fail to see how the government could ever force the Church to marry same sex couples. Private organisations are allowed to discriminate and set entry requirements whether they are secular or religious. If a Church offers legally binding marriages, then I think that, eventually, they will be compelled by the state to offer them to all. However, until such time as the state starts intervening in churches to force them to offer all their sacraments to all - something I can't see ever happening - then I'm sure Orthodox weddings will be free from interference. If they did start interfering in such a way they would definitely drive the Church underground and we'd surely be facing an age of persecution, but we'd have a lot more to worry about than the occasional request for a same sex marriage - being forced to offer the Eucharist generally to heterodox or non-Christians, for example.

James

[Nephi]

I don't doubt that people will think it so - a lot of them already do - but if the Church is not involved in anyway in the legal aspects of marriage and is not acting as a business (for some reason here the state seems to think that if you offer services for sale you have to offer them to everyone impartially), which it isn't, I fail to see how the government could ever force the Church to marry same sex couples. Private organisations are allowed to discriminate and set entry requirements whether they are secular or religious. If a Church offers legally binding marriages, then I think that, eventually, they will be compelled by the state to offer them to all. However, until such time as the state starts intervening in churches to force them to offer all their sacraments to all - something I can't see ever happening - then I'm sure Orthodox weddings will be free from interference. If they did start interfering in such a way they would definitely drive the Church underground and we'd surely be facing an age of persecution, but we'd have a lot more to worry about than the occasional request for a same sex marriage - being forced to offer the Eucharist generally to heterodox or non-Christians, for example.

James

I'm afraid that walling-off to the secular world will only work for so long, if we grant that culture at large turns down the road being talked about;

For example:

The decision gave only limited guidance about how courts should decide who counts as a minister, saying the court was “reluctant to adopt a rigid formula.” Two concurring opinions offered contrasting proposals.
[...]
In addition to ministers, priests, rabbis and other religious leaders, the decision appears to encompass, for instance, at least those teachers in religious schools with formal religious training who are charged with instructing students about religious matters.
[...]
Ms. Perich was a “called” teacher who had completed religious training and whom the school considered a minister. She was fired, the school said, for violating religious doctrine by pursuing litigation rather than trying to resolve her dispute within the church.
[...]
The administration had told the justices that their analysis of Ms. Perich’s case should be essentially the same whether she had been employed by a church, a labor union, a social club or any other group with free-association rights under the First Amendment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/us/supreme-court-recognizes-religious-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html

While the SCOTUS shot the case down 9-0, it shows that there is at least the presence of a position (the Obama administration in this instance) interested in controlling internal elements of church life. If the SCOTUS had decided differently on the issue, even ministers would have been able to sue for "job discrimination."

[Charles Martel]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

What? Not to call sin and error for what it is? And how is that some way considered "compassion?
"
What in God's holy name is wrong with "christians" today, especially on the Internet?

I swear half the Christian Internet is choke full of homosexuals or homosexual-sympathizers.

If that's the attitude you have, then yes, good thing you're not RC indeed.

Charles, what is your obsession?

And why do you talk like a maiden aunt who grew up in the 1930s?

Seems the "obsession here is the constant attack on RC clergy for one reason or another when it comes to the homosexual platform especially on the issue of" same-sex" marriage (Which is a joke if I ever heard one).

I've never seen so much pro-homosexual babble on a christian forum, I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

And what, has the truth changed since the 1930's?

[Nephi]

I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

I'd say most don't.

[Father H]

Good grief.

This should definitely be the post of the month.

New category:  "Charlie Brown's post of the month"

[JamesRottnek]

More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

What? Not to call sin and error for what it is? And how is that some way considered "compassion?
"
What in God's holy name is wrong with "christians" today, especially on the Internet?

I swear half the Christian Internet is choke full of homosexuals or homosexual-sympathizers.

If that's the attitude you have, then yes, good thing you're not RC indeed.

Charles, what is your obsession?

And why do you talk like a maiden aunt who grew up in the 1930s?

Seems the "obsession here is the constant attack on RC clergy for one reason or another when it comes to the homosexual platform especially on the issue of" same-sex" marriage (Which is a joke if I ever heard one).

I've never seen so much pro-homosexual babble on a christian forum, I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

And what, has the truth changed since the 1930's?

I can't believe you think this forum is particularly "pro-homosexual."

[Father H]

I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

I'd say most don't.

Correct.  One would be foolish to judge a whole religious body based on a single thread on a single forum. 

[Charles Martel]

I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

I'd say most don't.

Correct.  One would be foolish to judge a whole religious body based on a single thread on a single forum. 

Right Father, that's why I said "I can't believe".

There's no way most Orthodox are pro-homosexual.

[mike]

Define "pro-homosexual".

[augustin717]

Define "pro-homosexual".

In this context it probably means not foaming at the mouth and not writing all manner of psycho-analysable babble.

[Kerdy]

I can't believe that most Orthodox really believe this way.

I'd say most don't.

At least, not the ones I have met in person.

[Kerdy]

Define "pro-homosexual".

Define "define".

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Having participated in both of these traditions, I can report that they do seem to be dying out.

I believe that everyone should practice as they want (but if they see the light of Orthodox Christianity, hooray!)  "Pretend" Christianity and Judaism (which is the best term ever,) are ridiculous.  I support people who want to practice them, but I do not support the practices themselves.  It's silliness.

[Charles Martel]

Define "pro-homosexual".

Anything not definitively anti-homosexual.

Or at least how the Church defines it.

And charity does not equal acceptance.

[Charles Martel]

Define "pro-homosexual".

Define "define".

[mike]

Define "pro-homosexual".

Anything not definitively anti-homosexual.

Or at least how the Church defines it.

How does the Church (what Church?) define it?

Define "anti-homosexual".

[Santagranddad]

I was taught to hate the sin NOT the sinner, bearing in mind we are all sinners.