Author Topic: Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests  (Read 17588 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Tallitot

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Good grief.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Shlomlokh

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.
Absolutely a possibility.  :(

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Good grief.

This should definitely be the post of the month.
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Offline choy

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In a way this circles back to us.  Christians have maltreated gays for centuries, instead of being charitable to them and helping them with their struggle, they were maligned and abused.  Now they have "rights" on their side, this is going back to bite us.  Because of our track record for handling this issue, no one is taking our side.

Offline augustin717

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get a grip ye priests!

Offline biro

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I didn't realize the church had faced centuries of persecution by Anglican gay married guys.

Who do they mean, Elton John?
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Offline Ashman618

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1054 priests, lol it seems fate is not without a sense of irony

Offline Hiwot

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however can we be Christians without the state guaranteeing our say on other people's lives? how many parish members's donations are we going to lose if being christian does not translate as being a noble child of the state?wa :'( wa  :'( wa.  :'( what if these gay people did what we Christians did when we came to the power of the state?huh? what if they also start to round us up and imprison us, burn us on a stake, declare a law against us freely practicing what we believe to be right, strip us of our civil rights what if what if they too decide to do what we have done with those who oppose us?

if they are anything like us,or have learnt how to behave while in power from us, then the sky will fall!

back to the pre-Constantine era folks, you decide whether its good or bad judging by the state of christian affairs in the world today.

if we had preached and practiced the Gospel all this panic would have been unnecessary as we would have lived with all our neighbors in peace and love, even while we tell the Truth of our Faith to them and live it out daily. but we have wielded the weapon of the state, and we have chosen to run to it for shelter. let us see if this serves Christianity. or make another history of shame for us by our very own standards and ideals.

but there is even worse, we talk this way expect the worst of them judging by what we are used to do , and yet they show mercy, justice, love , towards us and what will we say then? are we not setting ourselves to disgrace of our own making of epic proportion?

yeah you disagree, and I disagree with you, so there.
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Offline William

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Why is everyone acting like this is so absurd? Catholic institutions have already been closed down because of this.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Santagranddad

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It might be said that the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales reaction is a bit 'over the top'. However here we have seen ever increasing pressures for change. Seven years ago Civil Partnerships were created for those same sex couples that wished take that option. Now same marriages suddenly appear out of Prime Minister David Cameron's head, despite the concept appeared in no political parties manifesto at the last general election. The implementation date set for this appears to allow little time for in depth exploration of all possible implications of such a move. Religious bodies other than the Church of England would have to opt in if they wished to carry out such 'marriages'. Anglican would be forbidden by law from doing so.

Potential problems might include a legal challenge by a same sex couple to any of the supposed safeguards for religious groups that have grounds for not accepting 'same sex' marriage on European equal rights laws. Lynne Featherstone, Minister for Equalities pooh poohs this, but is not the intellectually brightest minister on the front bench, and ministerial assurances have not always lived up to expectations in the past.

What concerns me is the change the government is seeking in terms of what constitutes marriage. Since the 1800s marriage here has in law been defined as being between a man and woman. The change does not even appear to be universally wanted by members of the Gay community.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.
Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs
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Offline 88Devin12

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To pin the return of persecution on gay marriage is a bit wrong, gay marriage is just one symptom of a much larger problem.

Offline Tallitot

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Proverbs 22:7

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

Offline 88Devin12

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:28:47 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

I agree with this. In the United States, a similar manifesto, the Manhattan Declaration, was initially signed by Orthodox, Catholic and Evangelical leaders. Later, ordinary citizens, like yours truly, have also signed it.

Offline 88Devin12

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.

I agree with this. In the United States, a similar manifesto, the Manhattan Declaration, was initially signed by Orthodox, Catholic and Evangelical leaders. Later, ordinary citizens, like yours truly, have also signed it.

and myself...

Offline biro

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Why is everyone acting like this is so absurd? Catholic institutions have already been closed down because of this.

I am not aware of one church that has closed because the church didn't like gay marriage. I have heard of many that were closed because they had to be sold to pay settlements from the child abuse scandal.
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Offline Nephi

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I agree with this. In the United States, a similar manifesto, the Manhattan Declaration, was initially signed by Orthodox, Catholic and Evangelical leaders. Later, ordinary citizens, like yours truly, have also signed it.
+1

Didn't realize we could sign it until you mentioned it.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:42:35 PM by Nephi »

Offline Shlomlokh

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Why is everyone acting like this is so absurd? Catholic institutions have already been closed down because of this.

I am not aware of one church that has closed because the church didn't like gay marriage. I have heard of many that were closed because they had to be sold to pay settlements from the child abuse scandal.
Biro, do you honestly think that the powers that be will tolerate any "intolerance" from the RCs whether real or supposed? I'm with William on this.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline William

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Why is everyone acting like this is so absurd? Catholic institutions have already been closed down because of this.

I am not aware of one church that has closed because the church didn't like gay marriage. I have heard of many that were closed because they had to be sold to pay settlements from the child abuse scandal.

Catholic orphanages have been forced to close for refusing to allow gay couples to adopt.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Tallitot

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
No, Conservative:
http://uscj.org/
Proverbs 22:7

Offline 88Devin12

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
No, Conservative:
http://uscj.org/

You realize Judaism strongly condemns homosexuality and homosexual marriage right? It's only the pretend Jews of the Reformed Judaism movement that accept it.

Offline Tallitot

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
No, Conservative:
http://uscj.org/

You realize Judaism strongly condemns homosexuality and homosexual marriage right? It's only the pretend Jews of the Reformed Judaism movement that accept it.
Are you Jewish? If not then perhaps you don't know what you're talking about.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Nephi

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You realize Judaism strongly condemns homosexuality and homosexual marriage right? It's only the pretend Jews of the Reformed Judaism movement that accept it.
Conservative Judaism, while not being part of Reform Judaism, seems to vary between being closer to Orthodox or Reform.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
No, Conservative:
http://uscj.org/

You realize Judaism strongly condemns homosexuality and homosexual marriage right? It's only the pretend Jews of the Reformed Judaism movement that accept it.
Are you Jewish? If not then perhaps you don't know what you're talking about.

I think this would have sufficed.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Let me guess Tallitot, you're in pretend-Jew "Reformed Judaism"?
No, Conservative:
http://uscj.org/

You realize Judaism strongly condemns homosexuality and homosexual marriage right? It's only the pretend Jews of the Reformed Judaism movement that accept it.
Are you Jewish? If not then perhaps you don't know what you're talking about.

I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:17:45 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Nephi

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Offline 88Devin12

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism

Offline Tallitot

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism
Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline 88Devin12

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism
Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Of course, modern Judaism itself is just fake since Orthodoxy is the true successor to Israel but that's beside the point. I'm sure pretend Jews like the Reformed and Conservatives are just going to destroy the Jewish faith and turn more of them to atheism, it's already been happening.

Offline JamesRottnek

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism
Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Of course, modern Judaism itself is just fake since Orthodoxy is the true successor to Israel but that's beside the point. I'm sure pretend Jews like the Reformed and Conservatives are just going to destroy the Jewish faith and turn more of them to atheism, it's already been happening.

Do you have a point other than spreading your misinformation-fueled absurdities?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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In a way this circles back to us.  Christians have maltreated gays for centuries, instead of being charitable to them and helping them with their struggle, they were maligned and abused.  Now they have "rights" on their side, this is going back to bite us.  Because of our track record for handling this issue, no one is taking our side.

Christians who weren't being Christian at the time...
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Offline Shanghaiski

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I didn't realize the church had faced centuries of persecution by Anglican gay married guys.

Who do they mean, Elton John?

I feel persecuted every time I hear him sing.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Why is everyone acting like this is so absurd? Catholic institutions have already been closed down because of this.

Indeed.

Catholic adoption agencies ceased work in Massachusetts after gay marriage became legal there, I remember reading.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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More than 1,000 priests have signed a letter voicing alarm that same-sex marriage could threaten religious freedom in a way last seen during “centuries of persecution” of Roman Catholics in England.

In one of the biggest joint letters of its type ever written, they raise fears that their freedom to practise and speak about their faith will be “severely” limited and dismiss Government reassurances as "meaningless".

They even liken David Cameron’s moves to redefine marriage to those of Henry VIII, whose efforts to secure a divorce from Katherine of Aragon triggered centuries of bloody upheaval between church and state.

They claim that, taken in combination with equalities laws and other legal restraints, the Coalition's plans will prevent Catholics and other Christians who work in schools, charities and other public bodies speaking freely about their beliefs on the meaning of marriage.
Disgusting how religious leaders care about legislation

Even more so how uncharitable these statements are

We should love and pray for the sinners, if gay marriage is somehow a cause for Christian persecution then it is our own fault for not showing love and compassion and doing what we can to make them want to seek repentance from their promiscuous and homosexual behavior

Good thing we're not RCs

We can and do show love and compassion, but some people want an endorsement and blessing for their behavior, and that we cannot give.

How is the position of the Orthodox Church with regard to homosexual activity any different than that of the Roman Catholic Church?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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To pin the return of persecution on gay marriage is a bit wrong, gay marriage is just one symptom of a much larger problem.

Indeed.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

There's apparently a trend of Orthodox Christians becoming gay Jews. I know at least three.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism
Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Of course, modern Judaism itself is just fake since Orthodoxy is the true successor to Israel but that's beside the point. I'm sure pretend Jews like the Reformed and Conservatives are just going to destroy the Jewish faith and turn more of them to atheism, it's already been happening.

Do you have a point other than spreading your misinformation-fueled absurdities?

What would the Patron of Cigarette Manufacturers say?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline JamesRottnek

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I think the Hebrew Scriptures, Talmud and Midrash speak pretty plainly. Pretend Jews just try to re-interpret them, or ignore them. They're no better than the Jews who worshiped the golden calf. They are the exact same as Pretend Christians.
The point was that he is Conservative, and much of Conservative Judaism accepts it like Reform Judaism does.

That's why I said that Conservative Judaism varies between being closer to Orthodox (minority I think) and closer to Reform (majority), particularly on issues like these.

Then Conservative Judaism is just a fake and pretend as Reformed Judaism
Whatever...but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Of course, modern Judaism itself is just fake since Orthodoxy is the true successor to Israel but that's beside the point. I'm sure pretend Jews like the Reformed and Conservatives are just going to destroy the Jewish faith and turn more of them to atheism, it's already been happening.

Do you have a point other than spreading your misinformation-fueled absurdities?

What would the Patron of Cigarette Manufacturers say?

Well he certainly wouldn't restrict his attacks to Reform Jews.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Nicene

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I wouldn't put it impossible any european government to force churches to marry gay couples some time in the future.
Thank you.

Offline jmbejdl

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I wouldn't put it impossible any european government to force churches to marry gay couples some time in the future.

To my knowledge no Orthodox churches in Britain conduct legal marriages (certainly I was told that the Ecumenical Patriarchate priests here need to see a marriage certificate first) and the same is actually true back in Romania. You have to bring your civil wedding certificate to the the priest before he will marry you. As long as that's the case, I fail to see how any government could force the Orthodox Church to 'marry' people of the same sex. Unfortunately for those churches, such as the Anglicans, that do conduct legal as well as religious marriage, I suspect you may be correct.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Tallitot

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1054 priests signed it. How does that compare to the number of Catholics who coming forward with accounts of being sexually abused by priests?
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Kerdy

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To pin the return of persecution on gay marriage is a bit wrong, gay marriage is just one symptom of a much larger problem.

I agree completely; however, the social acceptance of homosexuality as normal is the chosen battle front from both sides and it appears strategy may not be the strongest quality of Christians.