Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

[Kerdy]

Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.

I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.

That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.

No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.

The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.

[Shanghaiski]

I love homosexuals so much.

I am consistently amazed at how people so easily miss the point.  One would think I would get used to this, but I never do.

Could remake it. Change "gay people" to Nazis and watch people squirm.

It’s as if they believe one liner quips make doctrine.

It works for relativists.

[Shanghaiski]

Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.

I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.

That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.

No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.

The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.

Largely. However, we've been centuries in getting to this point.

[Shiny]

Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.

I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.

That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.

No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.

The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.

Yeah if Christians actually did praxis the world would change overnight.

[88Devin12]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

[Shiny]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

That's refreshing coming from you, Devin.

[JamesRottnek]

Homosexual:ho·mo·sex·u·al/ˌhoʊ məˈsɛk ʃu əl or, esp. British, -ˈsɛks yu-/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-uh l or, esp. British, -seks-yoo-] Show IPA
adjective 
1. of, pertaining to, or exhibiting homosexuality.
2. of, pertaining to, or noting the same sex.

This is the problem definition. I think he's making the distinction between "homosexual (the person)" and "homosexual behavior/activities," which are very different meanings meant by "homosexual" in this context. So if one says "anti-homosexual" it could mean "anti-homosexual (the person)" or "anti-homosexual behavior/activities."

Let me ask you this.......would he make the same distinction between pedophile and pedophilia?

One is activity and one is a person.

Can you separate one from the other?

If I murder someone am I not a murderer?

If I fornicate with someone am I not a fornicator?

If I blaspheme the name of God am I not a blasphemer?

You can not do one thing and say you have nothing to do with it.

So you hate all men, yes?

Could you elaborate?  I am not clear how you came to this conclusion.

Romans 12:9, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."  Is sin evil?  If it is, then Martel says we are to hate all men.

Yes, sin is evil and those in the act of sinning are evil. what do you want to hear? Do you take sin that lightly? Do you believe the Lord does? You are a fool if you take God for granted and depend soley on his mercy and love. We will all one day be held accountable for every sin, every thought, every slight in the eyes of God. True, God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a Righteous and Just one as well and we are all under his judgment at the appointed time. Don't think for a second that you can trivialize a sin because   God said we must be "sincere" in our love, acutally if that's the case, then we should speak out even more to the homosexual for the error in his ways and the corruption he sows to others, especially children who are easily decieved with this culture and it's stamp of approval on sodomy and fornication and a host of other sins.

But yes, we are to despise the homosexual if he is not repentant and actively engages in his debased "lifestyle". Seems many on here as well as everywhere else want some special rules for homosexuals, like in the secular world, we have to treat them and their sin like it's something special with special considerations and watch how we address them or we are to be taken as "haters" and "bigots" well you can count me out. I will call them out and name their sin, they are no better than anyone else regardless of how much browbeating and shaming we get from the immoral secularists and the powers that be from the well financed "gay" mafia that threaten and intimidate anyone in their way in getting what they want and what they want is simple; acceptance and legitimacy. We seem to be just about there, here in the "real world" where they call evil "good" and good "evil" or what they now label the "new normal".

So that's where we're at now, that even in the church we can't even call men bedding down with other men something that's "evil" and a sin which God said he hates without being called "haters" ourselves. The New Church of Sodom, open acceptance for one and all, no matter what deviancy you cling to becaue after all, God will still "wuv" you very much. Good luck with that.

Your attitude sucks. And is un-Christian. We are not to "despise the homosexual", or any human being for that matter. I suggest that you go back to the basics and re-read the Gospels.

I said when they are "unrepentant" and choose to engage in their "lifestyle" regardless when they have been convicted in their sin. God has even pointedly states that he considers homosexuality an "abomination" in the O.T. and St. Paul fiercly condemns it in almost the whole chapter of !st Romans in the N.T. God even destroyed two cities over the Sin of Sodom, a sin which the Church declares that "cries out to heaven for vengeance"

So don't worry about me, I've read and re-read scipture and Church teaching on this and it is very clear.

I'm sorry if it offends you. take it up with God.

Actually God never calls anything an abomination in the Old Testament.  Rather, God calls it to’ebah.  That word has a meaning closer to "unclean," than to the English "abomination."  Other examples of things called to'ebah are wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, eating shellfish, as is sacrificing a blemished or defective animal to God.  The first use of the term actually comes in Genesis where it is said that the Egyptians wouldn't dine with Joseph's brother, for it was to'ebah to them.  

Please get educated.

I have learned there is always more than one definition to ancient words and context is how we figure out which one to use.

Thank you for not actually addressing anything I said.

[Jetavan]

Homosexuals already had a legal and binding civil union.  On paper, it’s the same thing as marriage. 

Are you sure about that?

In Illinois, a civil union is a legal relationship between two people — either of the same or different sex — providing all of the legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits that the law of Illinois grants to married couples. But a civil union is not a marriage; a civil union does not provide federal protections or responsibilities to couples who enter into one, and a civil union will be recognized only in certain other states, not by all states.

Yes, very sure.  The states which provided this ensured it was legally equivalent.  Of course, each state has its own provisions, but it's the same.  In what you cited, you seem to forget marriage is controlled by state entities, not federal, as described multiple times by SCOTUS.  I have never seen a federal marriage certificate.  They are issued by each state.

Unlike in the case of marriage, neither the federal government nor any state need honor another state's civil union laws. So, civil unions are not "the same" as marriage, even on paper.

[Kerdy]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

[Kerdy]

Homosexual:ho·mo·sex·u·al/ˌhoʊ məˈsɛk ʃu əl or, esp. British, -ˈsɛks yu-/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-uh l or, esp. British, -seks-yoo-] Show IPA
adjective 
1. of, pertaining to, or exhibiting homosexuality.
2. of, pertaining to, or noting the same sex.

This is the problem definition. I think he's making the distinction between "homosexual (the person)" and "homosexual behavior/activities," which are very different meanings meant by "homosexual" in this context. So if one says "anti-homosexual" it could mean "anti-homosexual (the person)" or "anti-homosexual behavior/activities."

Let me ask you this.......would he make the same distinction between pedophile and pedophilia?

One is activity and one is a person.

Can you separate one from the other?

If I murder someone am I not a murderer?

If I fornicate with someone am I not a fornicator?

If I blaspheme the name of God am I not a blasphemer?

You can not do one thing and say you have nothing to do with it.

So you hate all men, yes?

Could you elaborate?  I am not clear how you came to this conclusion.

Romans 12:9, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."  Is sin evil?  If it is, then Martel says we are to hate all men.

Yes, sin is evil and those in the act of sinning are evil. what do you want to hear? Do you take sin that lightly? Do you believe the Lord does? You are a fool if you take God for granted and depend soley on his mercy and love. We will all one day be held accountable for every sin, every thought, every slight in the eyes of God. True, God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a Righteous and Just one as well and we are all under his judgment at the appointed time. Don't think for a second that you can trivialize a sin because   God said we must be "sincere" in our love, acutally if that's the case, then we should speak out even more to the homosexual for the error in his ways and the corruption he sows to others, especially children who are easily decieved with this culture and it's stamp of approval on sodomy and fornication and a host of other sins.

But yes, we are to despise the homosexual if he is not repentant and actively engages in his debased "lifestyle". Seems many on here as well as everywhere else want some special rules for homosexuals, like in the secular world, we have to treat them and their sin like it's something special with special considerations and watch how we address them or we are to be taken as "haters" and "bigots" well you can count me out. I will call them out and name their sin, they are no better than anyone else regardless of how much browbeating and shaming we get from the immoral secularists and the powers that be from the well financed "gay" mafia that threaten and intimidate anyone in their way in getting what they want and what they want is simple; acceptance and legitimacy. We seem to be just about there, here in the "real world" where they call evil "good" and good "evil" or what they now label the "new normal".

So that's where we're at now, that even in the church we can't even call men bedding down with other men something that's "evil" and a sin which God said he hates without being called "haters" ourselves. The New Church of Sodom, open acceptance for one and all, no matter what deviancy you cling to becaue after all, God will still "wuv" you very much. Good luck with that.

Your attitude sucks. And is un-Christian. We are not to "despise the homosexual", or any human being for that matter. I suggest that you go back to the basics and re-read the Gospels.

I said when they are "unrepentant" and choose to engage in their "lifestyle" regardless when they have been convicted in their sin. God has even pointedly states that he considers homosexuality an "abomination" in the O.T. and St. Paul fiercly condemns it in almost the whole chapter of !st Romans in the N.T. God even destroyed two cities over the Sin of Sodom, a sin which the Church declares that "cries out to heaven for vengeance"

So don't worry about me, I've read and re-read scipture and Church teaching on this and it is very clear.

I'm sorry if it offends you. take it up with God.

Actually God never calls anything an abomination in the Old Testament.  Rather, God calls it to’ebah.  That word has a meaning closer to "unclean," than to the English "abomination."  Other examples of things called to'ebah are wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, eating shellfish, as is sacrificing a blemished or defective animal to God.  The first use of the term actually comes in Genesis where it is said that the Egyptians wouldn't dine with Joseph's brother, for it was to'ebah to them.  

Please get educated.

I have learned there is always more than one definition to ancient words and context is how we figure out which one to use.

Thank you for not actually addressing anything I said.

I did, but it seems you missed it.

[88Devin12]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

[Kerdy]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

[88Devin12]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore. I recall him offering her love and forgiveness and the Gospel first.

This is how the Orthodox Christians and Priests I know are like. However, as I said, many of the Evangelicals and others I've known are as you describe. Many of those Fundamentalists and Evangelicals proselytize. We evangelize. We offer the Gospel, not threats of hellfire and brimstone.

[Kerdy]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

[88Devin12]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

[Kerdy]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.

[William]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.

[88Devin12]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.

Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.

[Shanghaiski]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

The sinful woman weeping at His feet in the house of the Pharisee? "Her sins, which were many, are forgiven her because she loved much." That is, she repented and showed her great love for God, whereas the Pharisee neither believed in Him as God nor showed even elementary hospitality for the time in washing His feet and anointing His head.

The Lord was not above harshly reproving sinners in Scripture, but in the Gospels, He reproves those who think they are righteous.

But, there's also "Go and sin no more" and "See, now you are better. Sin no more, lest something worse happen to you."

Love does not mean we ignore sin. However, there is not a one-size-fits-all application. For some people, a reproof is needed. For others, it would crush them.

It is a difficult road to travel, to support the person even while not supporting some of his choices. But the way to do it depends on one's own circumstances and those of the other.

There was a story I read in an Orthodox publication written by a man whose brother and sister, after being abused as children, came out as homosexuals. The writer was married with small children. His siblings were, according to him, very involved in their lifestyle and its defense, and his parents and other family was accepting it as normal. The writer said because of this climate, he has had to separate himself from his siblings, for the sake of his children.

That's got to be a difficult situation. The writer seemed to tout his way of doing things as the only way. I do not at all agree. However, each situation is unique. Sometimes it is necessary to suspend or end a relationship. But even if the reason for this is good, it's still a tragedy. But I think it would be incorrect to place all the blame on one person.

[Kerdy]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.

Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.

Are we then to let them live a lie and stand by supporting them in that lie, knowing they are destroying themselves?  That doesn’t sound right.  Appeasing their sinful acts is in no way, that I can see, beneficial to them or the message of God.  Perhaps if you explain in detail your understanding of what we should, how we should do it, and why, I will be able to see if from your point of view.  As of now, it makes no sense to me.  Let me explain.

Let’s say I have a friend I know sleeps with hookers.  He is married and has small children.  I know hookers aren’t cheap, so he is taking money from his family.  He is also committing adultery, and we know all of the pain and suffering this brings to a family.  Let’s not ignore the fact he most likely is going to catch a nasty little gift and pass it on to his unsuspecting wife, which potentially could orphan his children.  Am I to say nothing?  Am I to do as you suggest and provide my opinions only when he asks, because chances are he isn’t going to ask?  Or, should I confront him in the hopes he will think about his actions and potentially stop them?

I could provide a variety of other scenarios, but the point remains, it is our duty and responsibility to provide instruction to the world and provide them a means to escape their damnation.  Unless I don’t understand the Great Commission, which coincidentally, is paired with the other commandment Jesus gave us.  I believe the two are intertwined and inseparable.

[augustin717]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.

Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

[Shanghaiski]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.

That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.

Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.

Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.

Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.

Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.

[Shanghaiski]

Here is what one Orthodox fool for Christ, Crazy John, did for a transvestite:

http://www.oodegr.com/english/psyxotherap/crazy_john2.htm

[Kerdy]

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?

[88Devin12]

There are some good lectures/talks given on Ancient Faith Radio on this whole topic by Fr. Thomas Hopko, Frederica Mathewes-Green and Steve Robinson.

First comes Christ, the Gospel and the Church, then you can talk about sin. When you go to an Orthodox Church as an inquirer, you don't immediately have confession, catechism comes first, learning the Gospel comes first, and then confession, baptism and chrismation.

Also, you aren't going to turn gays into straight people. They will live with the struggle as much as us straight people have to live in our struggle of unhealthy sexual attraction. Upon inquiring we aren't told that we are sinful, lustful people, we talk about Christ's Gospel first, and the Church, and the Orthodox faith, then we start working out our repentance.

Protestants, especially the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals put the former before the latter, they practice what is called proselytism, which is basically the same as Muslims using a sword to convert people. Whereas we use the Gospel, we evangelize people.

[orthonorm]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

Formatting mine.

[Kerdy]

Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.

I don’t want to dismiss his point of view prematurely.  I am genuinely interested in what he has to say, but I do want him to explain it in enough detail for a meat head like myself to understand.  However, you make an excellent point!

[augustin717]

My opinion is that the official discourse of the church -insofar as it can be called official- with regards to homosexuality and a few other things is really left behind . Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that. Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.
 It's like you know "scientific creationism" vs scientific approaches. So talking about the position of the church it's like beating a dead horse, mostly. Who wants to change it will have to patiently work from the inside or else if it affects them personally either heroically submit to all the rules or find a modus vivendi where they'll just do whatever they think it's right without causing a ruckus; and there are sympathetic clergy that will do what they can to help you. But things will have to be done in a low-key "pastoral" way.
Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.

[Shanghaiski]

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?

I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.

[Kerdy]

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?

I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.

I see.  In that case, I withdraw my previous statement.

[Maria]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

I agree.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.

[Shanghaiski]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.

[Maria]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.

Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.

Give an example then. Notice that it does take courage and faith to speak the truth in love.

[Maria]

Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, is damning when these satanic lies lead to damnation.

[Shanghaiski]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.

Give an example then.

Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.

[Shanghaiski]

Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.

God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.

[Maria]

Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.

God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.

For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.

[Shanghaiski]

Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.

God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.

For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.

Keep your shame. I think it does. But whatever.

[Maria]

One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.

My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.

We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.

Give an example then.

Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.

Okay. Those examples all fail because you have taken them out of context.

In some cases, when a sinner fails, speaking to him will be in vain because the sinner has hardened his heart.
Thus, if a homosexual comes to me and says that his love for his partner will purify him, he is so convinced in his lies that nothing I could say would be of benefit.
Then we should walk away as the scriptures say and dust our feet.

In the other case, if someone with a proud and unrepentant heart (like the Westboro BC) were to try to correct a homosexual and that homosexual became hardened as a result of that prideful action of the preacher, then yes, it would have been better for the preacher to remain silent.

[Maria]

However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.

[augustin717]

However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.


What do you experience I. California? Centuries of persecution? Autos da  with Paul's books on pyres?

What do you experience I. California? Centuries of persecution? Autos da  fe with Paul's books on pyres?

[88Devin12]

I do find it interesting who is involved with the dissenting opinions here, those defending the method of proselytism and confrontation are either people who have recently come from a Protestant background or who have left for a more fundamentalist/extreme conservative Orthodox group. This is simply a curious observation and not an insult.

Kerdy, I'll be honest, I pray to God the same doesn't happen to you that's happened to other like-minded Orthodox folk, who often end up jumping ship to a break off sect.

One such man I know from Greece did just this. He confessed his sins to a Priest who told him to come take communion and they'll deal with it. He decided his sins were too great and he shouldn't be allowed to commune immediately and so he ended up joining a breakoff group in Greece. This particular group was so extreme and zealous in their sort of fundamentalism that they actually beat the local Bishop with a belt for being an "ecumenist". Needless to say, not all the groups are like that, but still, I hope you don't end up jumping ship to a breakoff sect.

[PeterTheAleut]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

[Kerdy]

I do find it interesting who is involved with the dissenting opinions here, those defending the method of proselytism and confrontation are either people who have recently come from a Protestant background or who have left for a more fundamentalist/extreme conservative Orthodox group. This is simply a curious observation and not an insult.

Kerdy, I'll be honest, I pray to God the same doesn't happen to you that's happened to other like-minded Orthodox folk, who often end up jumping ship to a break off sect.

One such man I know from Greece did just this. He confessed his sins to a Priest who told him to come take communion and they'll deal with it. He decided his sins were too great and he shouldn't be allowed to commune immediately and so he ended up joining a breakoff group in Greece. This particular group was so extreme and zealous in their sort of fundamentalism that they actually beat the local Bishop with a belt for being an "ecumenist". Needless to say, not all the groups are like that, but still, I hope you don't end up jumping ship to a breakoff sect.

I appreciate the concern, but it is a little over reactive.  I would settle for a response to my inquiry.

[mike]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.

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