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Author Topic: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?  (Read 3869 times) Average Rating: 0
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cossack 316
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« on: January 14, 2013, 11:52:50 AM »

video is in English. About 13 minutes long from the BRUOC (Brotherhood for the Revitalization of Ukrainian Orthodoxy in Canada) Seems there is growing sentiment in Canada against EP control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NKvXPYhkAs
- Bishop Yurij; 7th Ukrainian World Congress, in 1998
- Canada and new dreams for Ukrainain pioneers and settlers 0:40
- Without an understanding of our history, who we are, and where we are from, there is no today or tomorrow; Why are we making such colossal mistakes? The celebration of our past, present and future appears as a memorial service (panakhyda) instead of a celebration of joy 0:58
- Our Ukrainian grandparents felt the Ukrainian church was an integral part of their (Ukrainian Canadian) identity 1:19
- Crisis of faith for Ukrainian churches in Canada 3:43
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ting ting ting


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »

I saw these last night. I had heard mention of issues when visiting a seminary a year or so ago. I was looking for more information last night, as well. Seems these folk support the Kyivan Patriarchate. I'm trying to figure out more because I really don't understand, but I find this relevant to my interests.
Here is the website for The Brotherhood for the Revitalization of Ukrainian Orthodoxy in Canada
http://www.bruoc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=29
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »

Schismatics being schismatics.
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 01:34:44 PM »


Here we go, again.

The KP crowd are always looking to make trouble....or should I say "start" trouble where there is none to begin with.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 01:43:52 PM »

Their real problem is they are using religion for their nationalist agendas.  Why don't Moscow just grant them autocephally and be done with it?
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »

So its trouble that a growing number of Ukrainian Canadians in Canada dislike being under the EP?
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 01:45:14 PM »

What nationalistic agenda might that be?
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 01:46:08 PM »

Their real problem is they are using religion for their nationalist agendas.  Why don't Moscow just grant them autocephally and be done with it?

Ha!  Because Moscow is also playing the nationalist game.
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »

I think the only "nationalistic agenda" that Ukrainian Orthodox have is the desire for a free and independent Ukrainian Church, free of Moscow, free of Constantinople. The group in Canada are not Schismatics as they have not left the UOCC but are peaceful voicing their grievances and exchanging dialogue and ideas on how to unite and recognize the KP. The BRUOC is not KP but rather UOCC parishioners
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 02:12:11 PM »

Well, the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America should be working towards the North American Church, not on the Church back "home".  Their home is now here.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »

I think I am the only one who can speak for the UOCC here.  I am a member and my family came to Canada in the 1890's.
Our church is canonical and is in communion with the EP.  There is no demand to change that.  This "brotherhood" has only a few members and does not represent our church.  There is no demand to change anything.
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 04:19:31 PM »


Thanks Orest for the clarification.

I was hoping someone from the UOCC would jump in.

Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 09:50:37 AM »

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for watching the Brotherhood videos. Below you'll find the latest clips to a series of forthcoming educational videos and interviews.

William

Canonicity and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, by Wasyl Sydorenko
http://youtu.be/v3I5NKrCXMI

Ethnicity, Symbolism and Orthodox Christianity, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://youtu.be/x1jJ6yB2A4Y

Religious Spheres and Ukraine, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzTxad_jIc

Canonical Territories & the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQhVJrxGbpw

BRUOC Information Series
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFDKv3_cxFEe2-cDtmwq5D5d3giAhCIG_
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 09:56:11 AM »

Cross-posting (ie. posting same messages multiple times) is not accepted by the forum rules. Next time you do it, you will receive an official warning.

Michał Kalina
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 11:52:41 AM »


These types of posts are always a "hit and run"....they never hang around to discuss the subject with folks who disagree with their point of view.

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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 12:23:39 PM »

I am always open for discussion, the only argument I ever hear is because Patriarch Filaret was expelled by the Russian church for wanting to join the Ukrainian church, he is a bad man and therefore no point in recognizing the UOCKP yet Pat Mstyslav and Pat Volodymyr were not excommunicated and they started and grew the UOCKP. Seems that the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in the form of a national church is evil, yet a national Russian or Greek church is ok? Explain to me that logic.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 01:02:32 PM »

I am always open for discussion, the only argument I ever hear is because Patriarch Filaret was expelled by the Russian church for wanting to join the Ukrainian church, he is a bad man and therefore no point in recognizing the UOCKP yet Pat Mstyslav and Pat Volodymyr were not excommunicated and they started and grew the UOCKP.

How could they be excommunicated as they had never been in the Church?
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 01:06:29 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2013, 01:19:13 PM »

Well, the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America should be working towards the North American Church, not on the Church back "home".  Their home is now here.

Best advice ever!! (where's the applause smiley?)
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2013, 01:27:01 PM »

Katherine,

There are many Orthodox that strive for an American Orthodox Church. God Bless them in their quest. However, all Orthodox here in the US should not have to strive for only an American church as there are descendents of Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, etc. Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2013, 01:30:29 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?

Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Yes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 01:39:16 PM »

Well Michal, no point arguing with you, you clearly are against the notion of an independent Ukrainian church, and apparently all of the Ukrainians in North America in the US prior to 1995 and Canada in 1990, all of their sacraments are invalid. I guess my baptism in 1980 was invalid since I was a member of the UOCUSA prior to them joining the EP. I guess his Beautide Met Antony is an invalid Bishop seeing he was consecrated a priest and bishop by his Holiness Pat Mstyslav who to you is Roman Catholic. What a croch of baloney.
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 01:40:01 PM »


Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Yes.

No.
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 01:42:37 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?


The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html

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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 01:45:57 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?


which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918.[/b] The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



Liza, I'm guessing Michal views Lypkivskyj and Archbishop John as "schismatics" as well and are invalid as Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 01:50:09 PM »


Yes, I am well aware of Michal's opinions concerning things Ukrainian.  Smiley  I still care for him, though!
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 02:42:55 PM »

Katherine,

There are many Orthodox that strive for an American Orthodox Church. God Bless them in their quest. However, all Orthodox here in the US should not have to strive for only an American church as there are descendents of Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, etc. Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Do they live in America? Or in Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece?
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 02:46:34 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:56:18 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 02:51:16 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:52:13 PM by TheMathematician » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 02:52:23 PM »


These types of posts are always a "hit and run"....they never hang around to discuss the subject with folks who disagree with their point of view.



Liza,

The videos are not "hit and run".  Furthermore, UkeTube videos are not UkeTube's point of view. 

Rather, each video is 100% about the person(s) in each video.  Thus, the clips on Canonicity and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, etc. are the thoughts and views of Wasyl Sydorenko.  The clip on Met. Yurij urging for the split of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada to Walter Chewchuk is 100% of Walter Chewchuk's conversation with Metropolitan Yurij.  And so forth...

Basically, this is content that I - and most anyone else - would never know of.  Naturally, it is up to each person to evaluate the video content and to decide for themselves whether it has merit or should be dismissed.  And that's is good. But without the knowledge to begin with in the first place, folks can't make the choice to decide for themselves.

In fact, Wasyl Sydorenko talks about a conversation he had with folks who did not want to know Orthodox church "facts" in the following video:

Chambésy & the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (i 22-ий СOБОР УПЦК)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPFTxR4lCy4

So instead of rambling online, I often prefer absorbing video content. If the person require 50 mins to discuss a subject, no problem, UkeTube will tape and post it for everyone to share.

William
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 02:55:18 PM »


Did you post any videos explaining Metropolitan Yurij's thoughts or those of anyone who agreed with him?

I don't have time to go and watch them, so, I am genuinely curious, not being facetious.
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 02:56:35 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:13 PM »


Did you post any videos explaining Metropolitan Yurij's thoughts or those of anyone who agreed with him?

I don't have time to go and watch them, so, I am genuinely curious, not being facetious.

I haven't taped Metropolitan Yurij, not because I don't want to, but because he is in Winnipeg (actually, off to Turkey today) while I am in Toronto.  So I can't afford the trip.

Also, Met. Yurij refuses to answer letters from BRUOC members (see 3:00 mark at the link below), so I doubt he'd let UkeTube tape his thoughts: 

BRUOC Information Seminar #2 - Preview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNAjPmDUFgM

But yeah, if Met. Yurij were ever in town and granted an audience with UkeTube, I'd tape as much of him talking about the UOCC as he wishes, the concerns BRUOC has, and post all of it unedited for everyone (minus burps, throat clearings, etc..
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Liza, these are all very, very good questions, ones that I am in no way qualified to answer, and pray that the responsibility never becomes mine to decide, for most assuredly I will make severe errors.

I am not saying they should all join the OCA( I think im not, at least)

This I full disagree with. Heck, even now, no parish even within the same jurisdiction is the same, each has their own particular differences.

What I think I am getting at is, on a day to day level, nothing would, or should, change. Keep all the local customs, traditions, and languages that make you unique. From chant, to everything youve said.

Languages should be as they are now, a parish decision(or whomever makes those rules)

All the bishops should be able to serve until they die or retire, and where mergers are needed, make them.

You are right, it is not so easy to do, but is something that we should strive for, and I think the assembly could serve and does serve as a good model
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 03:13:08 PM »

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



Ukrainian Orthodox Church is Non-Chalcedonian...  angel police Cool Wink


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?



Yes.


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Come to Poland.
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Based on the common history and experiences of all immigrant churches (Catholic and Lutheran come to mind), this is a moot point. Realistically, most second and third generation immigrants do not speak or are not fluent in the language of their parents and grandparents. This is the common pattern here in America. First generation and sometimes second generation keep their language, history, customs and traditions alive, like it was in the "old country." Each succeeding generation assimilates a little more.
Seemingly, based on historical patterns, attempts to re-create "the old country" or keep the language going, eventually have little to limited success. Even among the Greeks, with their afternoon Greek schools, how many third generation Greek-Americans actually can speak the language, beyond an elementary level?
I'm not saying it's good or bad (actually, in my opinion, more is lost than gained) but it happens. That's just the way it is.
Within a generation or two, pretty much all the services in the churches you name will be in English anyway. Why? Because that will be the language that the parishioners speak and understand on a daily basis.
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 03:19:47 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 03:43:06 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 04:06:44 PM »



I will leave this rather complicated subject for the bishops to figure out.

I trust their judgment.  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 04:29:37 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 

I've made the same point in the past. This discussion does go to the very heart of the future of our faith outside of its traditional homelands and how one may retain some as part of residual ethnic identity in a polyglot culture as in the USA or Canada.

By now most of us here identify ourselves as Americans or Canadians rather than as a Russian, a Ukrainian, a Greek , Serb or whatever. Yet many, if not most identify our faith with an ethnic pronoun, like Russian,Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox etc...

So to me,a second generation American, the arguments raised in the videos strike me as anachronistic - they remind me of the written post-war polemics which were regular features in our church and fraternal publications of the 50's and 60' s.

Today we need to argue for an Orthodox identity.

So - I agree that Ukraine should have a self- governing, truly independent Orthodox church. So should the United States and Canada as well.
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 

I've made the same point in the past. This discussion does go to the very heart of the future of our faith outside of its traditional homelands and how one may retain some as part of residual ethnic identity in a polyglot culture as in the USA or Canada.

By now most of us here identify ourselves as Americans or Canadians rather than as a Russian, a Ukrainian, a Greek , Serb or whatever. Yet many, if not most identify our faith with an ethnic pronoun, like Russian,Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox etc...

So to me,a second generation American, the arguments raised in the videos strike me as anachronistic - they remind me of the written post-war polemics which were regular features in our church and fraternal publications of the 50's and 60' s.

Today we need to argue for an Orthodox identity.

So - I agree that Ukraine should have a self- governing, truly independent Orthodox church. So should the United States and Canada as well.

Nobody identifies as Canadian unless you're of Anglo Saxxon decent whose family has been in Canada for centuries.  That is the thing, the US is a melting pot, everyone is a something-American.  In Canada you are what your ethnicity is.  People here can live in ethnic bubbles and pretend to be back in their mother land.  I can go around Richmond, BC and go to a Chinese restaurant with no English signboard, no English menu, and the servers don't speak English at all.  And the banks here and the other stores, etc. all have staff who'd speak Mandarin or Cantonese.  So there is no incentive for them to integrate and become Canadian, they can live their entire lives in Canada as Chinese.  And that is a lot for many ethnicities.  That is why these ethnic parishes are in trouble in Canada.  Not only are they losing their immigrant parishioners to old age, if a certain generation starts identifying to be "Canadian", they disassociate themselves with the church.  Especially these Churches that refuse to adapt to the culture to the land where it is.
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2013, 04:54:48 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2013, 05:40:25 PM »


I was replying to your observation, that eventually families lose their attachment to their heritage and simply become American, Canadian, etc.

At present, there are way too many individuals who still speak their native languages, and wish to hold on to their roots, to make this so simple, and cut and dry.

The U.S. is a bit different than most Orthodox nations, in that it is the home for peoples from all over the world, with varied ethnicities, cultures, languages, etc.  Most people have come and built churches relying on the support of their various Patriarchs, to which they feel a connection.

Again, I love all the jurisdictions, and have freely visited and prayed in all of the ones in my area....however, I absolutely love my Ukrainian Church....and if someone were tell me I would have to give up anything from that Church, I would not be happy....from the language, services....right down to the bishops who lead us. 

Personally, I can't wait for the Pan-Orthodox Lenten Vespers because it gives me a chance to visit all the various churches, witness all their traditions, and participate in their services.  I think it's great that there is such variety.

....but, that's just me.  Smiley

I don't think the system is broken.  We are One in Christ and the Eucharist.  There's no division.  I can go to any canonical Orthodox Church in the U.S. and receive the Holy Sacraments.  We ARE one.

Yes, it's against canon law to have multiple bishops, etc.  However, tell me one person, or even one Church, that adheres to each and every canonical law.  We break them all the time...and hardly skip a beat....in the name of Economia.

Again...I leave this up to the Assembly of Bishops to figure out.  I'm certainly not versed well enough in these matters, nor am I able (or willing) to separate myself from my familial heritage to be completely unbiased.  Smiley


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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2013, 06:43:24 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?

I have. I've about had it up to here with the notion that everything is a happy wonderland and there aren't problems, or, that the only way around these issues is to tell the nekulturny pasty-faced converts to stop complaining. After all, the duty of the Orthodox Church is to make sure that it is always new-immigrants-only, no one should ever have to learn anything, and by golly no two different groups should have to work together.

Wait a second. Aren't we all one human race?

This is starting to remind me of the stories of how my grandparents on Mom's side didn't want my Mom and Dad to get married, because good Lord, Dad was Irish (Mom's Italian) and you know what they say about them!

Well, on Saturday, it'll be my Mom and Dad's 44th anniversary. So, who knows?

Yes, we are all strangers somewhere. And we should allow one another to enjoy our cultures. The trouble comes if you try to build a wall around it.

My great-grandparents went through some horrible things when they got off the boat. They didn't do it for nothing.

It is not 1908 anymore.
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