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Author Topic: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?  (Read 3018 times) Average Rating: 0
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cossack 316
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« on: January 14, 2013, 11:52:50 AM »

video is in English. About 13 minutes long from the BRUOC (Brotherhood for the Revitalization of Ukrainian Orthodoxy in Canada) Seems there is growing sentiment in Canada against EP control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NKvXPYhkAs
- Bishop Yurij; 7th Ukrainian World Congress, in 1998
- Canada and new dreams for Ukrainain pioneers and settlers 0:40
- Without an understanding of our history, who we are, and where we are from, there is no today or tomorrow; Why are we making such colossal mistakes? The celebration of our past, present and future appears as a memorial service (panakhyda) instead of a celebration of joy 0:58
- Our Ukrainian grandparents felt the Ukrainian church was an integral part of their (Ukrainian Canadian) identity 1:19
- Crisis of faith for Ukrainian churches in Canada 3:43
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »

I saw these last night. I had heard mention of issues when visiting a seminary a year or so ago. I was looking for more information last night, as well. Seems these folk support the Kyivan Patriarchate. I'm trying to figure out more because I really don't understand, but I find this relevant to my interests.
Here is the website for The Brotherhood for the Revitalization of Ukrainian Orthodoxy in Canada
http://www.bruoc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=29
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »

Schismatics being schismatics.
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 01:34:44 PM »


Here we go, again.

The KP crowd are always looking to make trouble....or should I say "start" trouble where there is none to begin with.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 01:43:52 PM »

Their real problem is they are using religion for their nationalist agendas.  Why don't Moscow just grant them autocephally and be done with it?
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »

So its trouble that a growing number of Ukrainian Canadians in Canada dislike being under the EP?
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 01:45:14 PM »

What nationalistic agenda might that be?
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 01:46:08 PM »

Their real problem is they are using religion for their nationalist agendas.  Why don't Moscow just grant them autocephally and be done with it?

Ha!  Because Moscow is also playing the nationalist game.
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »

I think the only "nationalistic agenda" that Ukrainian Orthodox have is the desire for a free and independent Ukrainian Church, free of Moscow, free of Constantinople. The group in Canada are not Schismatics as they have not left the UOCC but are peaceful voicing their grievances and exchanging dialogue and ideas on how to unite and recognize the KP. The BRUOC is not KP but rather UOCC parishioners
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 02:12:11 PM »

Well, the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America should be working towards the North American Church, not on the Church back "home".  Their home is now here.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »

I think I am the only one who can speak for the UOCC here.  I am a member and my family came to Canada in the 1890's.
Our church is canonical and is in communion with the EP.  There is no demand to change that.  This "brotherhood" has only a few members and does not represent our church.  There is no demand to change anything.
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 04:19:31 PM »


Thanks Orest for the clarification.

I was hoping someone from the UOCC would jump in.

Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 09:50:37 AM »

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for watching the Brotherhood videos. Below you'll find the latest clips to a series of forthcoming educational videos and interviews.

William

Canonicity and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, by Wasyl Sydorenko
http://youtu.be/v3I5NKrCXMI

Ethnicity, Symbolism and Orthodox Christianity, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://youtu.be/x1jJ6yB2A4Y

Religious Spheres and Ukraine, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzTxad_jIc

Canonical Territories & the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Wasyl Sydorenko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQhVJrxGbpw

BRUOC Information Series
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFDKv3_cxFEe2-cDtmwq5D5d3giAhCIG_
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 09:56:11 AM »

Cross-posting (ie. posting same messages multiple times) is not accepted by the forum rules. Next time you do it, you will receive an official warning.

Michał Kalina
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 11:52:41 AM »


These types of posts are always a "hit and run"....they never hang around to discuss the subject with folks who disagree with their point of view.

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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 12:23:39 PM »

I am always open for discussion, the only argument I ever hear is because Patriarch Filaret was expelled by the Russian church for wanting to join the Ukrainian church, he is a bad man and therefore no point in recognizing the UOCKP yet Pat Mstyslav and Pat Volodymyr were not excommunicated and they started and grew the UOCKP. Seems that the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in the form of a national church is evil, yet a national Russian or Greek church is ok? Explain to me that logic.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 01:02:32 PM »

I am always open for discussion, the only argument I ever hear is because Patriarch Filaret was expelled by the Russian church for wanting to join the Ukrainian church, he is a bad man and therefore no point in recognizing the UOCKP yet Pat Mstyslav and Pat Volodymyr were not excommunicated and they started and grew the UOCKP.

How could they be excommunicated as they had never been in the Church?
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 01:06:29 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2013, 01:19:13 PM »

Well, the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America should be working towards the North American Church, not on the Church back "home".  Their home is now here.

Best advice ever!! (where's the applause smiley?)
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2013, 01:27:01 PM »

Katherine,

There are many Orthodox that strive for an American Orthodox Church. God Bless them in their quest. However, all Orthodox here in the US should not have to strive for only an American church as there are descendents of Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, etc. Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2013, 01:30:29 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?

Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Yes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 01:39:16 PM »

Well Michal, no point arguing with you, you clearly are against the notion of an independent Ukrainian church, and apparently all of the Ukrainians in North America in the US prior to 1995 and Canada in 1990, all of their sacraments are invalid. I guess my baptism in 1980 was invalid since I was a member of the UOCUSA prior to them joining the EP. I guess his Beautide Met Antony is an invalid Bishop seeing he was consecrated a priest and bishop by his Holiness Pat Mstyslav who to you is Roman Catholic. What a croch of baloney.
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 01:40:01 PM »


Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Yes.

No.
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 01:42:37 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?


The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html

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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 01:45:57 PM »

Ah Michael, here we come to the root of the issue. Am I wrong to assume that you don't consider his holiness Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory or His Holiness Patriarch Volodymyr (Romaniuk) of blessed memory to be non clergy and in your thought process, Schismatics and heretical? If that is the case is every sacrament conducted by the UOCUSA prior to 1995 and the UOCC in 1990 to be invalid?

Are Roman Catholic sacraments valid?


which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918.[/b] The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



Liza, I'm guessing Michal views Lypkivskyj and Archbishop John as "schismatics" as well and are invalid as Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 01:50:09 PM »


Yes, I am well aware of Michal's opinions concerning things Ukrainian.  Smiley  I still care for him, though!
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 02:42:55 PM »

Katherine,

There are many Orthodox that strive for an American Orthodox Church. God Bless them in their quest. However, all Orthodox here in the US should not have to strive for only an American church as there are descendents of Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, etc. Should all of those that belong to those churches abandon them and rather aim for an American church instead?

Do they live in America? Or in Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece?
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 02:46:34 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:56:18 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 02:51:16 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 02:52:23 PM »


These types of posts are always a "hit and run"....they never hang around to discuss the subject with folks who disagree with their point of view.



Liza,

The videos are not "hit and run".  Furthermore, UkeTube videos are not UkeTube's point of view. 

Rather, each video is 100% about the person(s) in each video.  Thus, the clips on Canonicity and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, etc. are the thoughts and views of Wasyl Sydorenko.  The clip on Met. Yurij urging for the split of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada to Walter Chewchuk is 100% of Walter Chewchuk's conversation with Metropolitan Yurij.  And so forth...

Basically, this is content that I - and most anyone else - would never know of.  Naturally, it is up to each person to evaluate the video content and to decide for themselves whether it has merit or should be dismissed.  And that's is good. But without the knowledge to begin with in the first place, folks can't make the choice to decide for themselves.

In fact, Wasyl Sydorenko talks about a conversation he had with folks who did not want to know Orthodox church "facts" in the following video:

Chambésy & the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (i 22-ий СOБОР УПЦК)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPFTxR4lCy4

So instead of rambling online, I often prefer absorbing video content. If the person require 50 mins to discuss a subject, no problem, UkeTube will tape and post it for everyone to share.

William
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 02:55:18 PM »


Did you post any videos explaining Metropolitan Yurij's thoughts or those of anyone who agreed with him?

I don't have time to go and watch them, so, I am genuinely curious, not being facetious.
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 02:56:35 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:13 PM »


Did you post any videos explaining Metropolitan Yurij's thoughts or those of anyone who agreed with him?

I don't have time to go and watch them, so, I am genuinely curious, not being facetious.

I haven't taped Metropolitan Yurij, not because I don't want to, but because he is in Winnipeg (actually, off to Turkey today) while I am in Toronto.  So I can't afford the trip.

Also, Met. Yurij refuses to answer letters from BRUOC members (see 3:00 mark at the link below), so I doubt he'd let UkeTube tape his thoughts: 

BRUOC Information Seminar #2 - Preview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNAjPmDUFgM

But yeah, if Met. Yurij were ever in town and granted an audience with UkeTube, I'd tape as much of him talking about the UOCC as he wishes, the concerns BRUOC has, and post all of it unedited for everyone (minus burps, throat clearings, etc..
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Liza, these are all very, very good questions, ones that I am in no way qualified to answer, and pray that the responsibility never becomes mine to decide, for most assuredly I will make severe errors.

I am not saying they should all join the OCA( I think im not, at least)

This I full disagree with. Heck, even now, no parish even within the same jurisdiction is the same, each has their own particular differences.

What I think I am getting at is, on a day to day level, nothing would, or should, change. Keep all the local customs, traditions, and languages that make you unique. From chant, to everything youve said.

Languages should be as they are now, a parish decision(or whomever makes those rules)

All the bishops should be able to serve until they die or retire, and where mergers are needed, make them.

You are right, it is not so easy to do, but is something that we should strive for, and I think the assembly could serve and does serve as a good model
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 03:13:08 PM »

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



Ukrainian Orthodox Church is Non-Chalcedonian...  angel police Cool Wink


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?



Yes.


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Come to Poland.
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »


Do you feel the same way about the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox?

the question was not addressed to me, but I do agree with what katherine posted, and do believe that all US jurisdictions should merge into one American jurisdiction.

Yes, this includes the Serbs, the Greeks, and all that you have mentioned.

EDIT: And, just because of one jurisdiction in america does not mean that you need to adbanon the ethnic flavor of the parish, just be united under one Bishop and hierarchy

..and are you suggesting they all join the OCA?

Once they are "one" (even though they already are ONE, with separate administrative bodies) do you feel all services should be in English?

What about their "cultural" differences?  Should they be a stamp of each other? ....like a Walmart....when you walk in to any store, you know exactly where to find the eggs, because they are all the same?

What about the little nuances that make each jurisdiction unique?  Not wrong, simply unique.  Embroidered clothes, types of chants sung, various ethnic nuances to services (ie. the Romanians raise the kolach (baked break), and everyone holds on to each other's shoulders, during a panakhyda), etc.  What about even the words used such as panakhyda, moleben, etc.  Will all these be banned and replaced with memorial service, etc?  What about the language used in the services?  All should be English?  

Just wondering how this should all work.

It's VERY easy to say they should all come together, forget their individual roots and become "one"....but, how exactly are you going to accomplish this seemingly easy task?

What of the bishops who are the pastors of their flock?  Will they no longer minister to the "sheep" who know them and follow them as their shepherds?  

It's easy to say....not so easy to do.

I don't believe the system is broken today.  


Based on the common history and experiences of all immigrant churches (Catholic and Lutheran come to mind), this is a moot point. Realistically, most second and third generation immigrants do not speak or are not fluent in the language of their parents and grandparents. This is the common pattern here in America. First generation and sometimes second generation keep their language, history, customs and traditions alive, like it was in the "old country." Each succeeding generation assimilates a little more.
Seemingly, based on historical patterns, attempts to re-create "the old country" or keep the language going, eventually have little to limited success. Even among the Greeks, with their afternoon Greek schools, how many third generation Greek-Americans actually can speak the language, beyond an elementary level?
I'm not saying it's good or bad (actually, in my opinion, more is lost than gained) but it happens. That's just the way it is.
Within a generation or two, pretty much all the services in the churches you name will be in English anyway. Why? Because that will be the language that the parishioners speak and understand on a daily basis.
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 03:19:47 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 03:43:06 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 04:06:44 PM »



I will leave this rather complicated subject for the bishops to figure out.

I trust their judgment.  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 04:29:37 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 

I've made the same point in the past. This discussion does go to the very heart of the future of our faith outside of its traditional homelands and how one may retain some as part of residual ethnic identity in a polyglot culture as in the USA or Canada.

By now most of us here identify ourselves as Americans or Canadians rather than as a Russian, a Ukrainian, a Greek , Serb or whatever. Yet many, if not most identify our faith with an ethnic pronoun, like Russian,Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox etc...

So to me,a second generation American, the arguments raised in the videos strike me as anachronistic - they remind me of the written post-war polemics which were regular features in our church and fraternal publications of the 50's and 60' s.

Today we need to argue for an Orthodox identity.

So - I agree that Ukraine should have a self- governing, truly independent Orthodox church. So should the United States and Canada as well.
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century. 

I've made the same point in the past. This discussion does go to the very heart of the future of our faith outside of its traditional homelands and how one may retain some as part of residual ethnic identity in a polyglot culture as in the USA or Canada.

By now most of us here identify ourselves as Americans or Canadians rather than as a Russian, a Ukrainian, a Greek , Serb or whatever. Yet many, if not most identify our faith with an ethnic pronoun, like Russian,Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox etc...

So to me,a second generation American, the arguments raised in the videos strike me as anachronistic - they remind me of the written post-war polemics which were regular features in our church and fraternal publications of the 50's and 60' s.

Today we need to argue for an Orthodox identity.

So - I agree that Ukraine should have a self- governing, truly independent Orthodox church. So should the United States and Canada as well.

Nobody identifies as Canadian unless you're of Anglo Saxxon decent whose family has been in Canada for centuries.  That is the thing, the US is a melting pot, everyone is a something-American.  In Canada you are what your ethnicity is.  People here can live in ethnic bubbles and pretend to be back in their mother land.  I can go around Richmond, BC and go to a Chinese restaurant with no English signboard, no English menu, and the servers don't speak English at all.  And the banks here and the other stores, etc. all have staff who'd speak Mandarin or Cantonese.  So there is no incentive for them to integrate and become Canadian, they can live their entire lives in Canada as Chinese.  And that is a lot for many ethnicities.  That is why these ethnic parishes are in trouble in Canada.  Not only are they losing their immigrant parishioners to old age, if a certain generation starts identifying to be "Canadian", they disassociate themselves with the church.  Especially these Churches that refuse to adapt to the culture to the land where it is.
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2013, 04:54:48 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2013, 05:40:25 PM »


I was replying to your observation, that eventually families lose their attachment to their heritage and simply become American, Canadian, etc.

At present, there are way too many individuals who still speak their native languages, and wish to hold on to their roots, to make this so simple, and cut and dry.

The U.S. is a bit different than most Orthodox nations, in that it is the home for peoples from all over the world, with varied ethnicities, cultures, languages, etc.  Most people have come and built churches relying on the support of their various Patriarchs, to which they feel a connection.

Again, I love all the jurisdictions, and have freely visited and prayed in all of the ones in my area....however, I absolutely love my Ukrainian Church....and if someone were tell me I would have to give up anything from that Church, I would not be happy....from the language, services....right down to the bishops who lead us. 

Personally, I can't wait for the Pan-Orthodox Lenten Vespers because it gives me a chance to visit all the various churches, witness all their traditions, and participate in their services.  I think it's great that there is such variety.

....but, that's just me.  Smiley

I don't think the system is broken.  We are One in Christ and the Eucharist.  There's no division.  I can go to any canonical Orthodox Church in the U.S. and receive the Holy Sacraments.  We ARE one.

Yes, it's against canon law to have multiple bishops, etc.  However, tell me one person, or even one Church, that adheres to each and every canonical law.  We break them all the time...and hardly skip a beat....in the name of Economia.

Again...I leave this up to the Assembly of Bishops to figure out.  I'm certainly not versed well enough in these matters, nor am I able (or willing) to separate myself from my familial heritage to be completely unbiased.  Smiley


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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2013, 06:43:24 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?

I have. I've about had it up to here with the notion that everything is a happy wonderland and there aren't problems, or, that the only way around these issues is to tell the nekulturny pasty-faced converts to stop complaining. After all, the duty of the Orthodox Church is to make sure that it is always new-immigrants-only, no one should ever have to learn anything, and by golly no two different groups should have to work together.

Wait a second. Aren't we all one human race?

This is starting to remind me of the stories of how my grandparents on Mom's side didn't want my Mom and Dad to get married, because good Lord, Dad was Irish (Mom's Italian) and you know what they say about them!

Well, on Saturday, it'll be my Mom and Dad's 44th anniversary. So, who knows?

Yes, we are all strangers somewhere. And we should allow one another to enjoy our cultures. The trouble comes if you try to build a wall around it.

My great-grandparents went through some horrible things when they got off the boat. They didn't do it for nothing.

It is not 1908 anymore.
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« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2013, 06:53:34 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?

I have. I've about had it up to here with the notion that everything is a happy wonderland and there aren't problems, or, that the only way around these issues is to tell the nekulturny pasty-faced converts to stop complaining. After all, the duty of the Orthodox Church is to make sure that it is always new-immigrants-only, no one should ever have to learn anything, and by golly no two different groups should have to work together.

Wait a second. Aren't we all one human race?

This is starting to remind me of the stories of how my grandparents on Mom's side didn't want my Mom and Dad to get married, because good Lord, Dad was Irish (Mom's Italian) and you know what they say about them!

Well, on Saturday, it'll be my Mom and Dad's 44th anniversary. So, who knows?

Yes, we are all strangers somewhere. And we should allow one another to enjoy our cultures. The trouble comes if you try to build a wall around it.

My great-grandparents went through some horrible things when they got off the boat. They didn't do it for nothing.

It is not 1908 anymore.

A lot of people has been asking me if I was going to become a priest.  At first I thought it was God calling.  Later on I realize that to some the only reason why a non-Ukrainian would be going to their church was because he wanted to become a priest.
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2013, 07:22:14 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?



Yes, yes, and yes!  But, that's not because I was of a different ethnicity because of them....it just because.  This has happened to me among people of my own ethnicity, as well.

This has nothing to do with a parish's ethnicity, but, with the people involved in each situation.

Not everyone, everywhere is going to love every other person.  That's just the way it is.

It used to really bother me, but, I'm quickly getting used to not having everyone like me.  It's their choice....and their loss.  Wink 

Seriously, don't let it get to you.  It happens to everyone.

I know that I am on edge when I visit another parish...even English speakers.....because I'm not one of their "family"...and because I am soooo stressed, I often see negative reactions, when the people never really meant them to be that way.  Just because someone didn't answer, or wave back to me, doesn't mean they hate me, forgot who I am, or are angry with me....it just means they are preoccupied and I am not the center of their universe at that moment.

Instead of getting upset, just smile the wider and try again.

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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2013, 07:26:16 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?



Yes, yes, and yes!  But, that's not because I was of a different ethnicity because of them....it just because.  This has happened to me among people of my own ethnicity, as well.

This has nothing to do with a parish's ethnicity, but, with the people involved in each situation.

Not everyone, everywhere is going to love every other person.  That's just the way it is.

It used to really bother me, but, I'm quickly getting used to not having everyone like me.  It's their choice....and their loss.  Wink 

Seriously, don't let it get to you.  It happens to everyone.

I know that I am on edge when I visit another parish...even English speakers.....because I'm not one of their "family"...and because I am soooo stressed, I often see negative reactions, when the people never really meant them to be that way.  Just because someone didn't answer, or wave back to me, doesn't mean they hate me, forgot who I am, or are angry with me....it just means they are preoccupied and I am not the center of their universe at that moment.

Instead of getting upset, just smile the wider and try again.



The differences are magnified by the ethnic divide.  Every Filipino I have worked with here in Canada there is always that "brotherhood" between us that we're not really great friends (some of them do become close friends of mine) but that there is that connection that is not present with the other people at work who are non-Filipinos.  So if you are in church and people aren't talking to you and they are talking in their own language and doing their own cultural thing, it's a bigger deal than if someone who is of the same culture is ignoring you.
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2013, 07:28:42 PM »

I'm sorry. I get very hot under the collar. A lot.

I don't know what to say. There are some very good people there, and some, I don't know...

And of course, I'm an imperfect bag of wind too. So, what do I know?

All I know is, it's sad that people get divided and argue so much. Everyone struggles with sin. Shame on me for not being able to have sympathy for others.

I just don't know. It's been lonely.

Again, I'll shut up, it's about time for me to book that boat back home and hope my great-grandparents can forgive me. I don't belong. Maybe, no one does.
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2013, 07:32:18 PM »

This is true....however, there's a Romanian Cathedral just down the road from my parish.  I go to their events all the time.  

I don't speak Romanian...not a word....and I had that clammy palm, stressful experience of being in unfamiliar territory....but, eventually....I broke the ice barrier....and have become close friends with many people of that parish, their priest, and even got the honor of getting a blessing from their bishop.

You have to put yourself out there....swallow your pride, or inhibition, or whatever it is that is holding you back...and just keep chiseling away....IF you want to have relations with the other people.

Same is true in the Serbian church, near my home....Don't speak a word of it.  People even dress different than those at my parish.  I was certain they were all staring at me, and I felt uncomfortable the whole Liturgy....after a few visits....they all smile warmly when I show up, we shake hands....and speak in broken English with each other.  

You have to show a genuine interest in them....

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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2013, 07:33:15 PM »


Again, I'll shut up, it's about time for me to book that boat back home and hope my great-grandparents can forgive me. I don't belong. Maybe, no one does.

Killarney looks like a lovely place to call home.
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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2013, 07:47:06 PM »

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

When I was at school, I went to the nearest Greek Orthodox church two or three times.  No one ever talked to me during coffee hour.  I may have been upset for a few minutes until I realized that I was just passing through.  Still in college, on Easter, I was riding my bike in a suburb when I smelled lamb and heard Greek music.  I wanted to find that location and my shyness prevented me from doing so.

Have you ever been to a church where your only friends are five elderly women on the staff?

No.

Have you ever been to a church where you have been asked, repeatedly since you got there three years ago, why you don't go to the church down the road, because "they speak English there"?

I tried to join the Hellenic Students Association at the college I was attending.  There were 6 people in the room, including me.  In Greek, they said 5 people were present.  I figured that I was the odd man out and I walked out.  I didn't miss them.
 
Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?

Some people are bad with names.

I have. I've about had it up to here with the notion that everything is a happy wonderland and there aren't problems, or, that the only way around these issues is to tell the nekulturny pasty-faced converts to stop complaining. After all, the duty of the Orthodox Church is to make sure that it is always new-immigrants-only, no one should ever have to learn anything, and by golly no two different groups should have to work together.

Wait a second. Aren't we all one human race?

We are and some people are ignorant of that fact.

This is starting to remind me of the stories of how my grandparents on Mom's side didn't want my Mom and Dad to get married, because good Lord, Dad was Irish (Mom's Italian) and you know what they say about them!

Well, on Saturday, it'll be my Mom and Dad's 44th anniversary. So, who knows?

Many Years!!

Yes, we are all strangers somewhere. And we should allow one another to enjoy our cultures. The trouble comes if you try to build a wall around it.

My great-grandparents went through some horrible things when they got off the boat. They didn't do it for nothing.

It is not 1908 anymore.

You can't teach new ideas to those stuck in their old ways.  You have to improvise and assert yourself without your temper getting the best of you when things don't go as planned.  In college, I was just passing through and had no contact with the Greek-American community.  Perhaps people in your Greek Orthodox church view you in the same way - just passing through.  You have to convince them that you're serious about the faith independent of the culture.  As in Liza's examples, the community will warm to you once you assert yourself appropriately unless the damage is already done.    Huh Smiley  Huh
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2013, 07:48:54 PM »

I've been to two or three services a week for three years. Yes, I was serious. When was that door ever going to open?

But I guess I've repeated myself enough. Sorry.
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« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2013, 04:12:36 AM »

I was replying to your observation, that eventually families lose their attachment to their heritage and simply become American, Canadian, etc.

Closing yourselves in ghettos won't stop that. It may can give a dozen of years but nothing more.

Quote
At present, there are way too many individuals who still speak their native languages, and wish to hold on to their roots, to make this so simple, and cut and dry.

Everyone will have died out in 20 years.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I only say you need to find solutions that actually work to stop it.

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The U.S. is a bit different than most Orthodox nations, in that it is the home for peoples from all over the world, with varied ethnicities, cultures, languages, etc.  Most people have come and built churches relying on the support of their various Patriarchs, to which they feel a connection.

American exceptionalism again...

Churches of Romania, Poland, Czech Lands and Slovakia also have multiple calendars, liturgical traditions, and customs. They magically manage to do it despite being united. Are you saying Americans are too dumb for that?

Have you ever been at a post-church luncheon where you say "Hello!" to someone, and they mumble, "Uhhh," to you, and then turn to someone else and start talking in a language you can't speak, for ten minutes? And they never so much at look at you again, even though you are two feet away?

First world Orthodox problems.

Didn't your parent teach you it's impolite to interrupt a talk between others?

And why should they speak English anyway? To make you eavesdrop easier?

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Do you get forgotten by name, again and again, by someone with whom you have attended the same Bible class for four months?

That might have been me. I have a problem with rememberring names.
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« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2013, 04:34:26 AM »

American exceptionalism again...

Churches of Romania, Poland, Czech Lands and Slovakia also have multiple calendars, liturgical traditions, and customs. They magically manage to do it despite being united. Are you saying Americans are too dumb for that?

It's not about being dumb.  At least in those countries you mentioned, there is a place for the people who are the majority culture/ethnicity of the land to go to.  Most Americans (even Canadians) won't be able to find an Orthodox parish they can relate to in their own city.  Its easy to be Ukrainian if you're not in Ukrainian but you are in Ukraine.  In my case, I am an immigrant in Canada and I go to a Church filled by other immigrants of a different culture.  Their culture is neither my culture or the culture of the land where I am in right now.  So there is a total disconnect.  My current Orthodox parish at least is ethnic neutral.  We have Russians, Greeks, Romanians, etc., then there are the WASP converts.  We all come together as Canadians.  At least we all can identify in some way as being Canadian, that is where we live.  As immigrants we absorb the local culture to a certain extent.  That doesn't happen in a Ukrainian parish.  Why would I pretend to be Ukrainian?  I have totally no connection with their culture.
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« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2013, 09:59:45 AM »

As much as I cherish the time honored traditions of my heritage, I know that in the western hemisphere, the handwriting is on the wall. We have to address the reality of where we are today.I was looking through my photo files the other day and I was struck by the impact of demographics and economics over the past fifteen years on my parish. We still count over 500 souls but....median age makes the future look very different than the past. The other local Slavic parishes here face the same trends. This pattern repeats itself in countless communities. At a nearby parish it seems there are more readers, subdeacons and assorted clerical or monastic wannabes on a Sunday than families and children. We have been so wrapped up in culture for decades that when kids or families relocate they fall away when they "can't find a church like home." This is heard even when a church from the same jurisdiction is nearby, let alone an Orthodox parish from another diocese!  This refrain resonates regardless of ethnicity among most parish priests - just ask your pastor!  In my home parish the number of non English speakers is zero and those who can still speak "po nasemu" fluently, if at all, can be counted on one hand! This is not unique. The local Ukrainian churches still have Ukrainian school and dance class but most of the kids are evangelical immigrants who are there for culture not faith. I wish things were as they were when I was younger but wishing won't make it so. All of us have to find the way to address these challenges lest we find ourselves in history's dustbin.
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« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2013, 10:20:04 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.
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« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 10:29:55 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.
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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2013, 10:34:03 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

This wasn't in the church. It took place in the events hall, after the liturgy. It was coffee and snack time.

I admit I have a lot to learn, though.
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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 10:37:56 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

The value of fellowship ought not to be discounted. We are not all hermetically inclined.
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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 10:49:11 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

The value of fellowship ought not to be discounted. We are not all hermetically inclined.

Does that mean American converts should force Protestant parish behavoiur model on people who are not used to it and have no desire for it?
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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 11:01:03 AM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.
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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 11:03:39 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

The value of fellowship ought not to be discounted. We are not all hermetically inclined.

Does that mean American converts should force Protestant parish behavoiur model on people who are not used to it and have no desire for it?

1. I've never been a Protestant. Irrelevant, anyway.

2. Has it officially been declared a heresy for people to say Hi to each other at coffee time?

Yipes. Sad
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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 11:09:42 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

The value of fellowship ought not to be discounted. We are not all hermetically inclined.

Does that mean American converts should force Protestant parish behavoiur model on people who are not used to it and have no desire for it?

What? Being friendly and polite is "Protestant parish behavior"? Seriously?
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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2013, 11:14:20 AM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.

Can't you realise how awkwardly they feel? Do you really have to magnify that awkwardness? Do you really have to impose on them that always-happy American mentality? Imagine, in the "old country" there is not normal to make "friends" with everyone, to behave like Stepford wives.

Why do you behave so selfishly? "I'm lonely", "No one makes friends with me", "I'm being ignored", "They do not talk in English", "They do not behave like me"... Deal with it or join some support group where you will be able to whine with people with similar "problems".

Maybe the reason you can't make friends lies in you, not in the "others".
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2013, 11:30:18 AM »

Jeez, you sound like a jerk.

Go ahead, bring out the yellow dot. I'm ready.
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2013, 11:32:44 AM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.

Kind of like how the first Christians would get together and have the agape meal after worshipping?  How dare they?! IS OUTRAGE!

Quote
Can't you realise how awkwardly they feel? Do you really have to magnify that awkwardness? Do you really have to impose on them that always-happy American mentality? Imagine, in the "old country" there is not normal to make "friends" with everyone, to behave like Stepford wives.

Now this I can get behind, but the way you're expressing this is making you sound like a jerk.

Quote
Why do you behave so selfishly? "I'm lonely", "No one makes friends with me", "I'm being ignored", "They do not talk in English", "They do not behave like me"... Deal with it or join some support group where you will be able to whine with people with similar "problems".

Okay, I take that back.  You do sound like a jerk.
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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 11:38:35 AM »


While folks "back home" might not congregate in the church hall for coffee and donuts,why are you stating that they don't make friends?

The older ladies arrive at church way before the doors are even open.  They sit on the grassy knolls, rest and catch up with their babushka friends, until the clergy arrive to open the doors.  

Besides, even so, this doesn't hold true in this particular case, as the people are gathered in the church hall after Liturgy and talking with each other.  It's not likes she's grabbing them and holding them from leaving.  They are already there....and she wants to make friends.

On the other hand.....I had no idea that "back home" folks simply rushed home after Liturgy....and that as you said, sticking around was almost sacrilegious.  Why is that?

I'm truly curious....because at my church it was really, really hard to get the new immigrants to come downstairs and join us for lunch.  They would all simply walk out and then congregate in the parking lot and talk with each other.  We thought the "new" immigrants simply didn't want anything to do with the "old" immigrants.  So, I find this rather interesting.  Most come and join the rest for lunch now, but, it took literally months of continuous smiles and invitations to join us, before they did.  Now they are regulars!

Why would it be considered sacrilegious?


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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 11:43:20 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

The value of fellowship ought not to be discounted. We are not all hermetically inclined.

Does that mean American converts should force Protestant parish behavoiur model on people who are not used to it and have no desire for it?

? Fellowship, community, fraternal organizations etc have been essential in the creation and maintenance of Orthodox communities in America for well over a century. What do you mean? That model has nothing to do with converts.
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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2013, 11:48:51 AM »

The older ladies arrive at church way before the doors are even open.  They sit on the grassy knolls, rest and catch up with their babushka friends, until the clergy arrive to open the doors.

With people that already are their friends.

Quote
I'm truly curious....because at my church it was really, really hard to get the new immigrants to come downstairs and join us for lunch.  They would all simply walk out and then congregate in the parking lot and talk with each other.  We thought the "new" immigrants simply didn't want anything to do with the "old" immigrants.  So, I find this rather interesting.  Most come and join the rest for lunch now, but, it took literally months of continuous smiles and invitations to join us, before they did.  Now they are regulars!

Why don't you eat insects? You don't have such tradition.

I also think it'd be quite difficult to organise such events for parishes with several k (or even more) of parishioners.

The conclusion is that despite your embroidered shirts, funny food, and folk songs you are Americanised already and your attitutude is American deeply to bones. So what's the deal with the OP?

Quote
Why would it be considered sacrilegious?

"Church is for prayer, not for fun".

? Fellowship, community, fraternal organizations etc have been essential in the creation and maintenance of Orthodox communities in America for well over a century. What do you mean? That model has nothing to do with converts.

Orthodox communities or national communities?

Yet in a wide range they are absent in the "old country". What do you think the reason is?
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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2013, 11:55:36 AM »

Michal, all I wanted to do was make friends and say something interesting to them. I know not everybody speaks English and maybe I was a stranger to them. I just wanted to get to know people.

I was lonely. I'm sorry.

Some people come to church to pray not to make friends.

Isn't that counter to the point of the gathering?
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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2013, 12:00:58 PM »

The older ladies arrive at church way before the doors are even open.  They sit on the grassy knolls, rest and catch up with their babushka friends, until the clergy arrive to open the doors.

With people that already are their friends.


I'll bet they weren't friends from birth...and at some point one or the other had to take the step to reach out and get acquainted.  


Quote
I'm truly curious....because at my church it was really, really hard to get the new immigrants to come downstairs and join us for lunch.  They would all simply walk out and then congregate in the parking lot and talk with each other.  We thought the "new" immigrants simply didn't want anything to do with the "old" immigrants.  So, I find this rather interesting.  Most come and join the rest for lunch now, but, it took literally months of continuous smiles and invitations to join us, before they did.  Now they are regulars!

Why don't you eat insects? You don't have such tradition.


WHAT?!?  Why don't YOU eat insects!  

We have a tradition of eating rather tasty food....and we invite others to join us.


I also think it'd be quite difficult to organise such events for parishes with several k (or even more) of parishioners.


This may be difficult if you have thousands of people.....however, lets get real....most parishes in the U.S. DON'T have a thousand people in attendance on any given Sunday....so, that's really not a hurdle.  

We may have hundreds....and that's really NOT that difficult to organize.


The conclusion is that despite your embroidered shirts, funny food, and folk songs you are Americanised already and your attitutude is American deeply to bones. So what's the deal with the OP?


Why so offensive?  Believe it or not, Ukrainian don't wear embroidered shirts every day....not even on Sundays.

Funny food?  I believe that what you eat, is very similar to what Ukrainians eat.  So, I hope you enjoy the funny food.

What's the deal with the OP?  Be more specific, please.


Quote
Why would it be considered sacrilegious?

"Church is for prayer, not for fun".


It's not fun.  It's food.  People have to eat.  Do you eat alone, locked up in your room?  Or do you eat with your family?  The parish is a family.  We started the lunch after services, because many folks were old, widows, widowers, singles, etc....and had nobody to go home to.  So, this was our little attempt at bringing some joy and camaraderie into their lives.  After all, we are all family.

Besides, this directly correlates with "church".  Most people prepare for Holy Communion, and as such haven't eaten for a while.  Old folks, diabetics, etc....need food.  Why send them home on an empty stomach?


? Fellowship, community, fraternal organizations etc have been essential in the creation and maintenance of Orthodox communities in America for well over a century. What do you mean? That model has nothing to do with converts.

Orthodox communities or national communities?

Yet in a wide range they are absent in the "old country". What do you think the reason is?

They are both national, and Orthodox.  The food served is usually ethnic, but, the people eating are simply Orthodox.  Many non-Ukrainian come to our church and thoroughly enjoy spending time with us....eating our funny food.

You tell me why this doesn't happen in your "old country".  Perhaps they are all anti-social.

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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2013, 12:15:24 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

I still can't get the implication "unified Church => unified traditions".

Me, neither.  Within walking distance of where I am sitting at the moment:

1) A Polish RC church that's VERY Polish.
2) An Italian RC church that's very Italian-American.
3) A Lithuanian RC church that not only retains its Lithuanian character but also hosts the Traditional Latin Mass in Baltimore.
4) At least one RC church that has a strong Mexican community attached to it and a number of other churches sprinkled with congregants from various South American immigrants.

And that's just off the top of my head.  One church, all sorts of varied ethnic traditions.  I understand that in the past there was a very strong, justifiable fear of, say, Ukrainian traditions being ignored in favor of Russian ones if a parish joined the Metropolia.  I just don't think those fears are justifiable in the 21st century.  

Yes, if we ever get our act together and unite in an autocephalous Church of North America (or two, USA and Canada), after a generation, I'm sure you will still be able to tell whether a Church was founded by Greeks or Russians or Arabs, etc. even if the DL is all in English (or French/Spanish, as the case may be).  As it should be.

I have no problem with Orthodox being concerned with helping the Church in the Mother Country, as long as it does not come at the expense of serving the Home Country.  The Ukrainians in Canada are Canadian.  They should be under a primate in Toronto/Ottawa, or New York/Washington.  Not Kiev. That doesn't mean that they have to do everything like the Greeks in Toronto do.  They can do it à la Kiev in Saskatchawa.

My understanding is that out in the provinces the Ukrainians were like the Pennsylvania Dutch as far as culture goes, and now, like the Pennsylvania Dutch (which isn't limited to the Amish-they just remained isolated) coming into assimilation.  A revival can be made, much like the Cajun's in LA.  But the idea of locking the doors of the ghetto from inside, that's not going to work.
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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2013, 12:17:41 PM »


You tell me why this doesn't happen in your "old country".  Perhaps they are all anti-social.



Or rude, perhaps?

On behalf of the US, I apologize to all ethnic Orthodox for offending them by being friendly and polite. It won't happen again, trust me.
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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2013, 12:21:54 PM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.
In the Middle East, the Churches resemble those of the USA more than they do not in this.
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« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2013, 12:23:35 PM »

WHAT?!?  Why don't YOU eat insects!  
We have a tradition of eating rather tasty food....and we invite others to join us.

You didn't get it. I mean in the "old country" there is not customary to socialise after church services as a parish just as there is no tradition of eating insects or walking with leeks stuck into ears. It's alien for them.

Quote
Why so offensive?  Believe it or not, Ukrainian don't wear embroidered shirts every day....not even on Sundays.

Funny food?  I believe that what you eat, is very similar to what Ukrainians eat.  So, I hope you enjoy the funny food.

What's the deal with the OP?  Be more specific, please.

The OP's point was that churches in America loose their national identity and traditions. The problem (or it's not a problem) is that you've lost "old country" type of church already (if you ever had it in the first place).

If in the "old country" a group of people appeared and said:

- they want to discuss with the bishop how wrong he rules the diocese
- they want the priest to consult with them all parish expenses and his activities
- they want to organise parish festival, dance group, whatever
- they want to talk with a priest because they own the parish
- they want to choose their priest / bishop

they would be looked at as some extraterrestrials. No such things are "traditional" or present in the "old country".

You may still keep all that national decoration (not long, though) but there is nothing traditional in the way those "traditional old country churches" operate.

I have been attending typical "old country" parishes, typical diaspora parishes and everything in between. I see pros and cons of both types of management. I've heard arguments that ethic ghettos would prevent assimilation of minorities and seen it does not work.

Quote
It's not fun.  It's food.  People have to eat.  Do you eat alone, locked up in your room?  Or do you eat with your family?  The parish is a family.  We started the lunch after services, because many folks were old, widows, widowers, singles, etc....and had nobody to go home to.  So, this was our little attempt at bringing some joy and camaraderie into their lives.  After all, we are all family.

I'm not saying it's bad. It's only not an "old country" way.

Quote
You tell me why this doesn't happen in your "old country".  Perhaps they are all anti-social.

Yeah. "Everyone that does not share my opinion is bad".
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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2013, 12:26:11 PM »


I have no problem with Orthodox being concerned with helping the Church in the Mother Country, as long as it does not come at the expense of serving the Home Country.  The Ukrainians in Canada are Canadian.  They should be under a primate in Toronto/Ottawa, or New York/Washington.  Not Kiev. That doesn't mean that they have to do everything like the Greeks in Toronto do, and do it à la Kiev in Saskatchawa.


This is exactly the issue that the OP was having with Metropolitan Yurij and the UOCC.  The UOCC insists on being strictly a Canada based entity...with no ties to the homeland.  This fact, seems to upset a number of folks....who would like it to become part of the KP.

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« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2013, 12:43:23 PM »



This is exactly the issue that the OP was having with Metropolitan Yurij and the UOCC.  The UOCC insists on being strictly a Canada based entity...with no ties to the homeland.  This fact, seems to upset a number of folks....who would like it to become part of the KP.


This also includes no contact in Canada with certain Ukrainians and banning them from any Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada property. 

For those of you who do not understand Ukrainian, the English version of the letter is at 0:45.

Letter from Metropolitan Yurij to the Clergy and Parish Councils of the Eastern Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQk0ubup0hQ

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« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2013, 12:49:21 PM »


You are too vague in your answer.

It's not "certain" Ukrainians that are banned....it was a request that the clergy of the UOCC not be in the same vicinity as P. Filaret,....in case a photo be taken and misrepresented as that UOCC clergy supporting the KP.

Now, if photos could be taken, and nobody would attach gossip to them....then it would be fine.

However, everyone looks for an opportunity to make something out of nothing....and then the pot boils over.

In other words, there would be no problem if a priest from a UOCC parish came to listen to the speach.  In truth, there's no problem.  It might have been interesting.  However, having seen him there, the next morning, gossip would spread that this priest supports the KP....and a mess would ensue.

If people stopped all the gossip and would mind their own business.....everything would be better. 


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« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2013, 01:22:46 PM »

To fairly discuss the establishment, history and organizational modalities of North American Orthodoxy would no doubt exhaust available bandwidth.

However, for the benefit of non North Americans, the role of community, family, fellowship, fraternal and insurance organizations, sporting federations etc in the establishment of ethnic parishes in the early 20th century can not be understated. (Nor can assistance in many towns from mill-owners, factory owners,local bankers be overlooked either.) Unlike the Habsburg, Russian or any other European state of the era, here there was, and is, no state financial support of churches, payment for clergy and so on. In the absence of an active, local hierarchy in those formative decades, property rights, never an issue in 19th century Europe, were critical in North America to obtain legal status and to obtain bank loans for the construction of church buildings. Revenue became and remains a critical component of our ability to exist - initially through donations and dues, later and still today fundraising and now increasingly through stewardship.. So if the new immigrants emulated parts of a "protestant" mindset, so be it - that was, and to a lesser extent remains, the predominant ethos here.

I can't speak as to  Poland, Belarus or Russia, but in my experience we share a sense of community with our brothers and as sisters from and in Slovakia, west Ukraine, Greece and the Arab lands - along with our fellow North Americans - including converts.

(As an aside, auto correct on Kindle Fire is driving me nuts.....)
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« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2013, 01:28:14 PM »

To fairly discuss the establishment, history and organizational modalities of North American Orthodoxy would no doubt exhaust available bandwidth.

However, for the benefit of non North Americans, the role of community, family, fellowship, fraternal and insurance organizations, sporting federations etc in the establishment of ethnic parishes in the early 20th century can not be understated. (Nor can assistance in many towns from mill-owners, factory owners,local bankers be overlooked either.) Unlike the Habsburg, Russian or any other European state of the era, here there was, and is, no state financial support of churches, payment for clergy and so on. In the absence of an active, local hierarchy in those formative decades, property rights, never an issue in 19th century Europe, were critical in North America to obtain legal status and to obtain bank loans for the construction of church buildings. Revenue became and remains a critical component of our ability to exist - initially through donations and dues, later and still today fundraising and now increasingly through stewardship.. So if the new immigrants emulated parts of a "protestant" mindset, so be it - that was, and to a lesser extent remains, the predominant ethos here.

I can't speak as to  Poland, Belarus or Russia, but in my experience we share a sense of community with our brothers and as sisters from and in Slovakia, west Ukraine, Greece and the Arab lands - along with our fellow North Americans - including converts.


Which is why there needs to be an American Orthodox Church, however it would be structured, administrated, and whatever it would look like.
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« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2013, 01:59:17 PM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.

Can't you realise how awkwardly they feel? Do you really have to magnify that awkwardness? Do you really have to impose on them that always-happy American mentality? Imagine, in the "old country" there is not normal to make "friends" with everyone, to behave like Stepford wives.

Why do you behave so selfishly? "I'm lonely", "No one makes friends with me", "I'm being ignored", "They do not talk in English", "They do not behave like me"... Deal with it or join some support group where you will be able to whine with people with similar "problems".

Maybe the reason you can't make friends lies in you, not in the "others".

It is a completely different culture in other places.  In the Philippines I do not have to stay in Church to hang out with other Catholics.  I go to school, most people are Catholics.  I go to work, most people are Catholics.  Here in North America, not so much.  Even Catholics who are greater in number than Orthodox are hard to come by, what more the Orthodox?  I think there are a handful at work, we have a bunch of Russians and other slavic folks here.  But like an ethnic parish, they gather among themselves and they probably don't talk about church anyway.  So it is good to be with like minded people in a place where you hardly find anyone of that mold.
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« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2013, 02:02:20 PM »


I agree.

I love hanging out with Orthodox folks!

Nobody at work is Orthodox....and it's nice to hang out with folks who have the same interests and beliefs.
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« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2013, 02:11:46 PM »

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.
I didn't realize that people held liturgies in fellowship halls.

But aren't parishes supposed to be a community, rather than just a bunch of individual families that come for Liturgy on Sunday and then go home and never speak to, much less know, one another?
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« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2013, 02:28:05 PM »

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.
I didn't realize that people held liturgies in fellowship halls.

But aren't parishes supposed to be a community, rather than just a bunch of individual families that come for Liturgy on Sunday and then go home and never speak to, much less know, one another?

I agree with you, but that is the sad reality in most places.  In the Philippines which is mostly Catholic and there is a parish 10 minutes from each other in every direction (including the horrendously bad traffic), people usually parish hop to whatever is their convenience.  So like if one Sunday I want to go to the Mall, I go to church that is close to the mall (and most malls would even have their own chapels that has Masses throughout the day).  My home has 2 parishes within 2kms, and if I drive out a little further, there is another parish that has Masses 'round the clock from 5am to 9pm on Sundays.  So we never stick to the same parish enough to know the people there.  I can imagine in places like Ukraine that it is the same thing.  There are just options on where to go so people never really form bonds with people from the parish.  Also most of their friends and family are of the same faith anyway, so celebrating the Feasts is not a problem.  Invite your extended family and you have 50-100 people over at your home for Pascha.
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« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2013, 02:30:51 PM »

But aren't parishes supposed to be a community, rather than just a bunch of individual families that come for Liturgy on Sunday and then go home and never speak to, much less know, one another?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it depends on members' mentality and there is not one proper answer?
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« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2013, 03:13:38 PM »

There absolutely should be an American Orthodox Church, that's undeniable, but if there really were to be one eventually, it shouldn't be a veil for another ethnically-rooted Church.

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

I'll take another example from the Ruthenian Catholic Church. In the last thirty years or so, they have rebranded themselves as the "Byzantine Catholic Church," for fear of alienating non-ethnic Ruthenians, yet they continue to sing in Carpatho-Rusyn Chant and Prostopinije, they bless fruit during the feast of the Transfiguration, use embroidered towels in their services, pariwinkle wreaths during weddings, et cetera. If they were truly THE Byzantine Catholic Church, wouldn't logic deduce that they would use Byzantine Chant, Stefana wedding crowns, and the Greek language in their icons?

People need to understand that just because a church is Russian, Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, or Ukrainian doesn’t mean that only people from Ukraine or of Ukrainian descent can go to it. That has nothing to do with nationalism. The base of Churches also has nothing to do with nation-states because states and governments are temporary. How many ethnic groups don’t have their own states and countries? Does that mean that they are any less deserving of an independent Church? The Ukrainian (Kyivan) Church existed long before 1991. Just because there is a United States and a Russia, doesn’t mean that those countries need an independent Church.

Look at the Roman Catholic Church. Is every member Italian? Absolutely not. Do non-Italians feel alienated? Not usually. But their structure, Tradition, and rites are rooted in the politics and culture of Rome.

It’s inevitable that some people would not feel comfortable in a labeled Greek Church or a Ukrainian Church and would rather belong to a Church named “American.” But that Church would need to be original, with American chants, American customs, emphasis on American saints, and other American influences. Until Orthodoxy is strong enough in North America, however, ethnically rooted Churches shouldn’t try to half-heartedly fake being American because that’s how we find ourselves in these situations.

Also, before I post this, let’s be honest and admit that this isn’t only a problem in Ukrainian Churches. How many Greek churches in America have Greek flags hanging out front or on the solea? Would they be merged into this “American Orthodox Church?”
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« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2013, 03:16:20 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...
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« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2013, 03:22:15 PM »

There absolutely should be an American Orthodox Church, that's undeniable, but if there really were to be one eventually, it shouldn't be a veil for another ethnically-rooted Church.

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

I'll take another example from the Ruthenian Catholic Church. In the last thirty years or so, they have rebranded themselves as the "Byzantine Catholic Church," for fear of alienating non-ethnic Ruthenians, yet they continue to sing in Carpatho-Rusyn Chant and Prostopinije, they bless fruit during the feast of the Transfiguration, use embroidered towels in their services, pariwinkle wreaths during weddings, et cetera. If they were truly THE Byzantine Catholic Church, wouldn't logic deduce that they would use Byzantine Chant, Stefana wedding crowns, and the Greek language in their icons?

People need to understand that just because a church is Russian, Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, or Ukrainian doesn’t mean that only people from Ukraine or of Ukrainian descent can go to it. That has nothing to do with nationalism. The base of Churches also has nothing to do with nation-states because states and governments are temporary. How many ethnic groups don’t have their own states and countries? Does that mean that they are any less deserving of an independent Church? The Ukrainian (Kyivan) Church existed long before 1991. Just because there is a United States and a Russia, doesn’t mean that those countries need an independent Church.

Look at the Roman Catholic Church. Is every member Italian? Absolutely not. Do non-Italians feel alienated? Not usually. But their structure, Tradition, and rites are rooted in the politics and culture of Rome.

It’s inevitable that some people would not feel comfortable in a labeled Greek Church or a Ukrainian Church and would rather belong to a Church named “American.” But that Church would need to be original, with American chants, American customs, emphasis on American saints, and other American influences. Until Orthodoxy is strong enough in North America, however, ethnically rooted Churches shouldn’t try to half-heartedly fake being American because that’s how we find ourselves in these situations.

Also, before I post this, let’s be honest and admit that this isn’t only a problem in Ukrainian Churches. How many Greek churches in America have Greek flags hanging out front or on the solea? Would they be merged into this “American Orthodox Church?”


Great post, Julian.

Welcome to the Forum.
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« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2013, 03:26:24 PM »

We've never used Slavonic at my OCA parish.  Mind you that some OCA parishes are ethnic parishes.  It is not true that all are "American" or "North American".  Also we have a lot of "American" saints though admittedly they are mostly Russian saints who have come to North America.  But there aren't as much North American Orthodox Saints to fill up the calendar just yet and admittedly the Church was born from the Russian Church, so there are many hold-overs.  Do you think Sts. Cyrill and Methodius started from scratch and did everything Slavic for their mission?
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« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 03:32:48 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.
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« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2013, 03:40:14 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.

That means you should not say OCA is Russian.
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« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2013, 03:44:36 PM »

We've never used Slavonic at my OCA parish.  Mind you that some OCA parishes are ethnic parishes.  It is not true that all are "American" or "North American".  Also we have a lot of "American" saints though admittedly they are mostly Russian saints who have come to North America.  But there aren't as much North American Orthodox Saints to fill up the calendar just yet and admittedly the Church was born from the Russian Church, so there are many hold-overs.  Do you think Sts. Cyrill and Methodius started from scratch and did everything Slavic for their mission?

I find it odd that an American church is rooted in a Russian church which is rooted in a Greek Church. It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine not as immigrants struggling to hold on to their identities, rather they came as missionaries who adopted countless Slavic pagan customs into legitimate Christian worship. Of course they didn't start from scratch, but their mission from Byzantium didn't have a Miscovite middleman with a potentially ulterior motive.

Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta. Sure, parishes have different degrees of ethnic identity, but I'm generalizing here for same of argument, time, and clarity. Your parish sounds like its on the right track for greater inclusion of ethnic Americans in the broader Orthodox fold in America.
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« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.

That means you should not say OCA is Russian.

Michal, call me when you find any church anywhere that doesn't have influences from other Traditions. Please..
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« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2013, 03:56:38 PM »

It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine

Did they?

Michal, call me when you find any church anywhere that doesn't have influences from other Traditions. Please..

You are arguing that OCA follows Russian tradition and therefore cannot represent the "fullness of Orthodoxy". Yet in these pictures half of the clergy have Greek, not Russian phelonions. You can also see in quite few pictures people capturing the cross which is also not a Russian tradition, some churches have pews - also not Russian. It looks that, contrary to your words, OCA somehow manage to have multiple liturgical traditions and despite being in one jurisdiction these churches manage to keep their uniqueness.







Nice Ukrainian vestments, don't you think? Notice the boy who accordingly to Balkan tradition caught the cross.



Nice Ukrainian towel.
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« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2013, 03:57:27 PM »

Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta.

Never heard it, and I've been to several of both.
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« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2013, 04:16:32 PM »

Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Perhaps I see the OCA as more Russian than Greek or whatnot because I am an outsider looking in and my experience isn't as intimate as yours. But for the moment, I'd like to not clog this thread with unrelated banter.
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« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2013, 04:19:34 PM »

Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Your broader point consists of such novel details. If the rest of them is as corresponding to reality as that one your broader point makes no sense.
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« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2013, 04:36:23 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

When I was a member of the OCA, it was during the time of Metropolitan Theodosius, that the Greek style phelonion was allowed to be used.
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« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2013, 05:48:57 PM »

Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Your broader point consists of such novel details. If the rest of them is as corresponding to reality as that one your broader point makes no sense.

Thank you. This is the point, you see. You make assertions - that's fine. It's what we do here. But you support them with anecdotal details which are not necessarily true, broadly speaking. If the supporting details are faulty, can the conclusions be sound? Perhaps, but then more evidence is needed, so to speak.
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« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »

Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

When I was a member of the OCA, it was during the time of Metropolitan Theodosius, that the Greek style phelonion was allowed to be used.

Maybe they just got a good deal on the Greek style vestments?
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« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2013, 05:52:07 PM »


In my area....when a Pan-Orthodox Vespers is held in an OCA church....many clergy do not show up. 

I can't say about the faithful, as I don't know who is from which parish....but, the clergy are blatantly missing.
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« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2013, 05:55:44 PM »

We've never used Slavonic at my OCA parish.  Mind you that some OCA parishes are ethnic parishes.  It is not true that all are "American" or "North American".  Also we have a lot of "American" saints though admittedly they are mostly Russian saints who have come to North America.  But there aren't as much North American Orthodox Saints to fill up the calendar just yet and admittedly the Church was born from the Russian Church, so there are many hold-overs.  Do you think Sts. Cyrill and Methodius started from scratch and did everything Slavic for their mission?

I find it odd that an American church is rooted in a Russian church which is rooted in a Greek Church. It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine not as immigrants struggling to hold on to their identities, rather they came as missionaries who adopted countless Slavic pagan customs into legitimate Christian worship. Of course they didn't start from scratch, but their mission from Byzantium didn't have a Miscovite middleman with a potentially ulterior motive.

Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta. Sure, parishes have different degrees of ethnic identity, but I'm generalizing here for same of argument, time, and clarity. Your parish sounds like its on the right track for greater inclusion of ethnic Americans in the broader Orthodox fold in America.

The first Orthodox missionaries were Russian and they came to Alaska.  And yes, some of the problems we have today is because it was immigrants who came to North America who wanted a church where they can continue their way of life.  For the most part it was not missionaries who had the goal of Christianizing the local populace.  And despite the efforts to "localize" the faith for the Slavs, the ethnic foundation of the faith that Sts. Cyril and Methodius came with was Greek.  I'm pretty sure whatever they taught and establish then is, if viewed by today's standards, Greek instead of Slavic.
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« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2013, 10:51:06 AM »


In my area....when a Pan-Orthodox Vespers is held in an OCA church....many clergy do not show up. 

I can't say about the faithful, as I don't know who is from which parish....but, the clergy are blatantly missing.

Part of that may be due to the perception by some clergy of a kind of "problematic" status of the OCA. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
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« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.
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« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2013, 11:31:27 AM »

By the way I don't see signs of "death" in the UOCC.  I do see a very successful mission church in Bradford Ontario and another successful mission 3 Sundays a month at our chapel in Oakville: and yes the people who come are Ukrainian-speaking.  We have to build new churches where the people live or else we will loose them.
And talk about Famous Ukrainian-Canadian Orthodox: Roberta Bondar for one who was very active in her church in Sault Ste. Marie and the former Governor General Ray Hnatishchin.  When he died CBC TV broadcasted his funeral service with our Metropolitan and priests and a choir of the Ukrainian Orthodox CHurch.  All on national TV
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« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2013, 12:09:29 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

Thank you Irene for reminding us of the real differences regarding multi-capitalism between our countries. I recall discovering that year's ago when I lived in the Buffalo area and crossed the border often.  Here in the states the only comparable area is probably metro NYC. Although in recent decades this is changing among newer immigrants, our Ukrainians, Lemkos and Rusyns in the USA are different culturally than those in Canada. So, please take my comments as to the USA - not Canada.



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« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

First off, I do not advocate schism. What I want and pray for is for the hierarchs of the other Orthodox Churches to eventually recognize the UOCKP. It seems that an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (nationalism) is a sin to most of you. You are missing the point that the fact that all of the decision making by the Ecumenical Patriarch and Moscow Patriarch are based on their "nationalism" and or growing (increased money, power and influence). They are not concerned with spiritual matters, if they were what is the issue? Let everyone pray in their own ethnic church, in their own language while keeping their local ethnic customs etc. Why does it bother them so much? Because, it divides up the MONEY and POWER. Two sinful things as I remember. Ukrainians have already wasted 22 years of independence (besides the hundreds before that) waiting for some one to give them permission to exist or to be "recognized". Guess what I recognize all of my ukrainian orthodox brothers and sisters... not just the ones who pay dues to foreign entities, be it Moscow or Constantinople. With that I'm done, God Bless you all and SLAVA UKRAINA
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« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2013, 04:49:36 PM »

Slava Bohu!!!

(Glory to God)

Slava Ukraini!
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« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2013, 04:59:13 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

First off, I do not advocate schism. What I want and pray for is for the hierarchs of the other Orthodox Churches to eventually recognize the UOCKP. It seems that an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (nationalism) is a sin to most of you. You are missing the point that the fact that all of the decision making by the Ecumenical Patriarch and Moscow Patriarch are based on their "nationalism" and or growing (increased money, power and influence). They are not concerned with spiritual matters, if they were what is the issue? Let everyone pray in their own ethnic church, in their own language while keeping their local ethnic customs etc. Why does it bother them so much? Because, it divides up the MONEY and POWER. Two sinful things as I remember. Ukrainians have already wasted 22 years of independence (besides the hundreds before that) waiting for some one to give them permission to exist or to be "recognized". Guess what I recognize all of my ukrainian orthodox brothers and sisters... not just the ones who pay dues to foreign entities, be it Moscow or Constantinople. With that I'm done, God Bless you all and SLAVA UKRAINA


I agree with you right here.  So many issues in the Ukrainian Church will be resolved if they just have an autocephalous canonical Orthodox Church whose head is in Kyiv.  Even the ROC is getting into the Vatican's business by pressuing the Pope not to elevate the UGCC into a Patriarchal Church.  What is it to them really?  It's not even an Orthodox Church, what is their concern?  Ultimately its politics.  Russia wants Ukraine to be part of her political territory.  And right now they are starting by doing that ecclesiastically.

That is one thing I didn't like in the Ukrainian Church.  They'd play something as if it is something spiritual, but really there is an underlying political reason.
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« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2013, 06:23:20 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

Since I never claimed to have any knowledge of the Ukrainian Church, in Canada or America, your scolding is somewhat unjustified.
If you wish only Canadians of Ukrainian origin to discuss this issue, you have only to say so.
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« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2013, 06:46:17 PM »


In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America.
Your Church might be "part" of the EP, but he has no jurisdiction on North America.

On that:
1903
CHAPTER 42
An Ordinance to incorporate the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church [i.e. the Russian Archdiocese of North America and the Aleutian Islands], and the Parishes and Missions of the said Church. [Assented to June 19, 1903.]

WHEREAS the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and tne Aleutian Islands, has petitioned that he, his successors in office having jurisdiction over the said church in Canada, and each of the duly authorised parishes and missions in the Territories be incorporated ; and it is expedient to grant the prayer of the said petition;

THEREFORE the Lieutenant Governor by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Territories enacts as follows :

1. The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and the Aleutian Islands and his successors Incorporatlon in office, having jurisdiction in Canada, is hereby incorporated for the purposes mentioned in this Ordinance, under the name of " The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church," (hereinafter called the corporation sole) with all powers and privileges contained in paragraph 38 of section 8 of chapter 1 of The Consolidated Ordinances 1898....
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=northwest+territories+first+orthodox+church&sig=faH2t_YmTDgfUj0H0s4qkKmIROQ&ei=4GudSubXAY3iMNLJ9JAC&ct=result&id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&ots=PNecwbNsxP#v=onepage&q&f=false


I got no problem fighting off Yankee designs on Canada, but not at the expense of furthering the Phanar's.
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« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2013, 04:25:18 PM »


No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.
In the Middle East, the Churches resemble those of the USA more than they do not in this.

I just want to comment on this specific point without going into a debate...

I know at least some parishes in Serbia have "coffee hour" where such a thing is needed and where a priest/monk wishes to do so.  I have seen it happen in the monasteries as well.  In other places there is no need for such gatherings or they are organizes in a different manner such as a "spiritual gathering" where a priest in a semi-casual manner talks to parishioners...or they are more structured such as lecturing on a certain topic...options are unlimited.  I am talking from firsthand experience.
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« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2013, 04:30:09 PM »

In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.
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« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2013, 10:28:26 PM »

In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.

It can be done. When I was young we had two liturgies attended by several hundreds each. We have a large social center, common in older American parishes where people held wedding receptions, funeral luncheons, baptismal parties etc...sports programs, meeting rooms... The coffee hour was organized by mothers of the church school children.
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« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2013, 01:09:28 PM »

There is something else that should be considered...prior to concluding whether coffee hour in needed or not



In countries where majority of population is Orthodox, Orthodoxy is present in all level of society.

Orthodox RE classes at school and in the church, celebration of St. (school patron in Serbia)
Pretty much every single organization (from sports teams to fire stations and cities) have their patron saints
Orthodox material at public libraries, lectures by Orthodox clergy and/or Orthodox topics
TV shows and documentaries about Orthodox topics, as well as media in general informs about all major feasts...I don't think

Anyway the point being is that Orthodoxy is present in everyday life in (let's say) Serbia, while that is not the case in countries where Orthodox people are minority. In such parishes coffee hour and other activities which could bring parishioners closer are very much needed.  Parish in such places is not "just" a parish ;its actul name is "church-school congregation."

Leadership of each church-school congregation (priest, church council) is therefore responsible is providing an alternative in order to fill out the gap...that is why coffe hours, catechument classes, RE classes at parish for kids and adults, mini library, story time for kids, Serbian/Russian/Greek/etc classes for kids and adults should be offered as well...People need to be explained the significance of Orthodoxy for that one day a week they spend in the church and to be able to preserve their heritage.  That won't make them worse citizens of a country in which they live.  It is quite contrary. 

I agree with the need to have a pan-Orthodox feeling, but by abolishing all other jurisdictions except the "American" ones is not the way to go due to the uniquness of a situation. Perhaps the best way of doing so is by encouraging parishioners of different juristictions which live in the same or neighbouring cities to once a year visit each other not individually but as a parish, to have summer camps for kids together and other similar events. Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month. Reverse rule should apply for the English speaking parishes (one month, Slavonic, Greek, Serbian, Russian, Romanian, etc)...Anyway those are my two cents.





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« Reply #116 on: February 27, 2013, 01:10:09 PM »

In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.

It can be done. When I was young we had two liturgies attended by several hundreds each. We have a large social center, common in older American parishes where people held wedding receptions, funeral luncheons, baptismal parties etc...sports programs, meeting rooms... The coffee hour was organized by mothers of the church school children.


Yes, it doesn't seem to be a problem for the large GOA cathedral in our area - two liturgies and a parish of over 1000.
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« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2013, 01:11:40 PM »

Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month.

Huh
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« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2013, 01:16:20 PM »


Michal, are there any English speaking people in your area (besides yourself, of course)?
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« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2013, 01:18:16 PM »


Michal, are there any English speaking people in your area (besides yourself, of course)?


Yes...
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« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2013, 02:30:39 PM »

Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month.

Huh

I am not sure what you mean by this smiley...I was referring to North America...I have seen it happen and it is useful for parishioner who do not speak the language of that parish...
I just realized I meant to say non-English speaking parishes not countries...
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