OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 03:27:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: To Oriental or Eastern Orthodoxy?  (Read 4057 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« on: January 14, 2013, 10:19:31 AM »

If communion with Rome is not the guarantee of orthodoxy, I find myself at a loss. There are schisms within Orthodoxy. Why should one convert to Orthodoxy as opposed to Oriental Orthodoxy? Do the Oriental Orthodox consider the other Orthodox Churches schismatic?

Please, enlighten me.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:19:47 AM by gueranger » Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,852


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 10:27:26 AM »

If the Oriental Orthodox Churches were named "Non-Chalcedonian Churches of the East", would it still bother you?

Be honest. It bothers you because both have the name Orthodox in them, doesn't it? Isn't that a little goofy?

You have no problem with the Anglicans or Lutherans being different churches because they don't have the name Orthodox in them.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 10:31:45 AM »

If the Oriental Orthodox Churches were named "Non-Chalcedonian Churches of the East", would it still bother you?

Be honest. It bothers you because both have the name Orthodox in them, doesn't it? Isn't that a little goofy?

You have no problem with the Anglicans or Lutherans being different churches because they don't have the name Orthodox in them.

I think you might be misunderstanding my intention. I'm seriously contemplating converting to Orthodoxy. I live near both an Eastern Orthodox and a Coptic Orthodox Church. If I convert I want to make the right decision... doctrine wise.

Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,852


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:36:11 AM »

Don't you also live near an Anglican or Lutheran church? Would they also pull you toward them if they were called the Anglican Orthodox Church and Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:37:00 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 10:40:51 AM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.
Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 11:00:16 AM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.

Then I think there's no alternative but to look into Chalcedon. Do you agree with the Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian position? If like some of us (myself for instance) you think that both sides are effectively saying the same thing, then I think you still have to work out who you think is in schism from whom. It's messy, it's ugly and it's tragic, but if you really are in a quandary, I can't see any way of avoiding taking a good hard look at it.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 11:11:54 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?
Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,078


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 11:16:16 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?

Acts of the Council of Chalcedon by Richard Price and Michael Gaddis. The whole Chalcedon-issue is disturbing, you'd better just visit both parishes instead of reading up on Chalcedon.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:28:17 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 11:18:21 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?

Actsof the Council of Chalcedon by Richard Price and Michael Gaddis. The whole Chalcedon-issue is disturbing, you'd better just visit both parishes instead of reading up on Chalcedon.

Interesting. I think I'll have to read and visit.
Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 11:20:12 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?

For an OO perspective, I highly recommend Fr. V.C. Samuel's book: The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined. Though I'm not sure how easy it will be to procure nowadays.
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 11:45:52 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?

For an OO perspective, I highly recommend Fr. V.C. Samuel's book: The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined. Though I'm not sure how easy it will be to procure nowadays.

Its available for $33.
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/father-vc-samuel/the-council-of-chalcedon-re-examined/paperback/product-194480.html
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:46:13 AM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 12:19:37 PM »

Interesting. I think I'll have to read and visit.
I am cradle OO. I visit OO and EO Churches and feel at home at both. I usually don't partake of communion at EO Churches. But I have taken communion from EO Churches when I was at locations without OO churches, ofcourse with the blessings of my OO priest and the EO priest. When I asked the EO priest if I could approach for communion; he lovingly told me "where else would you go ?"

Reading upon Chalcedon is not going to be easy. I tried and gave up. I am still confused about the differences between hypostasis (qnuma), essense (ousia), nature (physis/ kyana), and essense. I am hoping that you have a better mind to be able to comprehend that.

Quote
we must confess the two natures from which the one Christ is, and avoid the cutting into two, and extol one Son and Christ, and one incarnate nature of God the Word...

It is blasphemous to call the one Christ, two natures use the name 'nature' in place of 'individual designation', saying that the ‘Word of God’ is one nature, and the man from Mary another
St Severus of Antioch
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:49:31 PM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,182



« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 01:57:38 AM »

Do you have any good sources to recommend?

Acts of the Council of Chalcedon by Richard Price and Michael Gaddis. The whole Chalcedon-issue is disturbing, you'd better just visit both parishes instead of reading up on Chalcedon.
Or both.
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ruthenian Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Pheonix
Posts: 2,362



« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 02:09:26 AM »

If communion with Rome is not the guarantee of orthodoxy, I find myself at a loss. There are schisms within Orthodoxy. Why should one convert to Orthodoxy as opposed to Oriental Orthodoxy? Do the Oriental Orthodox consider the other Orthodox Churches schismatic?

Please, enlighten me.
Dear OP,

Look up the differences between chalcedonian and non-chalcedonian Orthodoxy.  Which do you like better?  Pick that one.

I'm sorry that I can't offer a complex answer with theology, teaching, and this-is-why-they're-wrong words. 

If I were you, I would chose chalcedonian Orthodoxy, or "Orthodoxy" as you've called it.  The simple reason being that there are more EOs in the USA than OOs, and that you're more likely to find an EO Church if you were to move or whatever.

If you want to get into the nitty-gritty of who's right and who's wrong, do that, but I'm not getting into it.  If that type of stuff matters so much to you, I don't know if you'll ever be happy with simply attending Church and taking from it what you can.
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 191



« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 09:39:07 AM »


Dear OP,


OP? Are you assuming that I'm a Dominican? lol

If you want to get into the nitty-gritty of who's right and who's wrong, do that, but I'm not getting into it.  If that type of stuff matters so much to you, I don't know if you'll ever be happy with simply attending Church and taking from it what you can.

 I'm just trying to investigate everything I can right now. If it's a fault to be concerned about what is true, then I guess I'm at fault. I'll read some books, visit some churches, talk to some priests. See where the Holy Spirit leads me. Pray for me.

Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 01:44:45 PM »

gueranger, don't feel like you need to take the "make an arbitrary decision" approach some here are recommending. Do what you can to study the issue.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 03:16:54 PM »

If you study Chalcedon, make sure to:

1) Study the following EO councils as well
2) Study Pope St. Leo's Christology in general, and not just his Tome (which apparently, may or may not have even been written by him) to understand what he means and doesn't mean
3) Read what each of the various sides teach before taking anathemas at face-value - they are almost always inaccurate to some degree
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 03:36:59 PM »

Pray for God's guidance on the matter.  I think its hard and to a certain extent silly for us to make a decision on a matter that seasoned theologians for centuries haven't been able to resolve.  God will lead you where He wants you to be, pray for it.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,078


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 03:48:29 PM »

Quote

OP? Are you assuming that I'm a Dominican? lol

Original Post[er]
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2013, 03:53:29 PM »

I would recommend also Price and Gaddis on the 5th Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II).  It hammers down St. Cyril's view of the whole matter, and affirms the Alexandrian tradition of sometimes calling hypostasis physis, and that this is legitimate so long as one is not confusing hypostasis with ousia.  It demonstrates the continuity of the Fathers, both Alexandrian and otherwise, with the horos of Chalcedon.      

Logged
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ruthenian Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Pheonix
Posts: 2,362



« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2013, 04:03:01 PM »

Quote

OP? Are you assuming that I'm a Dominican? lol

Original Post[er]

Exactly.   Wink
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 800


WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2013, 10:41:21 AM »

Another good book on the topic: http://www.lulu.com/shop/father-peter-farrington/orthodox-christology/paperback/product-10969273.html
or in pdf: http://www.lulu.com/shop/father-peter-farrington/orthodox-christology/ebook/product-17565035.html
Logged
sheep100
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 10


« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 01:07:36 AM »

I don't know if this helps or not, but for me one of the reasons
I decided for EO over OO is the distribution and numbers of both churches.
It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population. As Christ said:
"by their fruits you shall know them".Catholics.  I am not saying that the OO are bad fruit
just that they are not as fertile(in the sense of growing in church membership) as the EO or RC churches. The lack of diversity and stagnation of church membership growth is a
evidence(not a proof) that the church is not catholic.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:25:06 AM by sheep100 » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,537


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 02:36:10 AM »

I don't know if this helps or not, but for me one of the reasons
I decided for EO over OO is the distribution and numbers of both churches.
It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population. As Christ said:
"by their fruits you shall know them".Catholics.  I am not saying that the OO are bad fruit
just that they are not as fertile(in the sense of growing in church membership) as the EO or RC churches. The lack of diversity and stagnation of church membership growth is a
evidence(not a proof) that the church is not catholic.



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 

I think those posters who have emphasized the need for studying the Christological issues, becoming familiar with concrete communities, and praying for God's guidance in determining where he wants one to be are on the right track. 

The "numbers" approach described above surely cannot be correct, else Western Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism trump all forms of Christian Orthodoxy.  Is it "numbers plus distribution"?  Even so, the problem remains.  Israel, from which came Christ, has always been a small bit of humanity compared to the rest of the planet, yet we don't discount their "correctness" regarding matters of faith relative to the other nations just because they were not as numerous or well represented across the globe.  They were "right" because they were "right", because God revealed his Word--his truth--to them in a way he didn't to the other nations.  And the Church is the Church because it, too, is "right": what God has revealed and handed down she has kept and passed on without change.  That's what you have to look for, not simply a few vital statistics.   

Is the numerically limited membership and distribution of the OO Churches, whether at present or throughout history, simply an "infertility" issue, or are there other historical factors at play?  Might it, in some way, be an element of divine providence, a "faithful remnant" whom God has seen fit to keep small for whatever reason?  We could ask the same, obviously, regarding the EO Churches, larger than us but smaller than others.  After all, from an Orthodox perspective, the larger numbers and distribution of the Roman Catholic Church have nothing to do with the fact that their beliefs on certain key issues are just plain heretodox (leaving aside for now other factors, like reproduction, wars, relative freedom or oppression, forced conversions and other bad missionary methods, etc.).             

The Church was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic when it was just a hundred and twenty people coming out of their "upper room" hide-out in a city on the borders of the Roman Empire on the Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.  If it maintains that same Orthodox faith, it still remains all of those things two thousand years later, even if it is just forty million or so Egyptians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Indians in their "homelands" or scattered "abroad".  It's about the faith; don't get distracted by math.       

 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,647



« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 02:54:38 AM »

IIRC we have an (EO) poster here who translates medieval Arabic OO texts about Christology in his blog. I wonder what was the address? That could interest the OP.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:55:01 AM by Alpo » Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 03:03:04 AM »

WELCOME BACK, MOR EPHREM!!!


Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 03:03:31 AM »

People can tell I'm happy he's back, right?
Logged

dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,102


« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2013, 03:07:53 AM »

I find it hard to stomach the idea that the EO are somehow "more catholic" than the OO just because there are more of them in different places. Maybe it's because I'm an ex-RC, but that kind of reasoning leaves a bad taste in my mouth (and betrays a lack of knowledge as to the history of the OO, too; just as the Romans had churches in North Africa or the EO at one time in Christian Sudan, there used to be Syriac Orthodox dioceses in Herat, Afghanistan and other now seemingly-unlikely places). There is also the historical reality of liturgical Byzantinization, which hardly seems like a point in favor of the diversity of the EO. Note that I am not saying that the EO are not diverse, but I don't think the idea that they are somehow more diverse than the OO stands up to scrutiny. Trying to look at it dispassionately, we can say that both churches include European and non-European native churches. The major difference that might broach the question of culture or universality is in their relative distribution: EO is generally more European (in that the majority of its native churches are the national churches of European people), while OO is more non-European (" " non-European people). But so what? Both have also expanded greatly in the world relative to where they were just 100 years ago, and don't show any signs of tempering their commitment to the missionary imperative. There are OO and EO churches in many, many parts of the world now. 400+ native Bolivians now attend weekly at the Coptic cathedral in La Paz, up from 1 Copt (yes, one person, and he wasn't even a Bolivian) who was there to greet Fr. Youssef when he arrived in the country on December 14, 2000. I am sure there are similar stories that the EO can tell.
Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2013, 03:08:35 AM »

IIRC we have an (EO) poster here who translates medieval Arabic OO texts about Christology in his blog. I wonder what was the address? That could interest the OP.

If I recall correctly, that poster had some rather inaccurate notions about what the OO's believe.  I think this was the topic of at least one thread in the private forum.  

My advice to the OP is to read sources written by OO's about what the OO's believe, and read sources written by EO's about what EO's believe.

Stay away from polemics, especially about Chalcedon.  That can be poisonous to one's faith.

And if numbers were important, we should all be Roman Catholic.
Logged

Suryoyutho
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Suryoyo (Syriac)
Posts: 188



« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2013, 03:18:18 AM »

sheep100, there are a few in Armenia as well, and I wonder how many OO there would've been "relative to the rest of the population" if it wasn't for persecution, since I believe Syriacs and Copts have been persecuted more than any other Christians through history, easy. Just if the genocide in Ottoman Turkey didn't take place us Syriacs would've been a much larger number today. Let's not even mention Timur Lane and the Mongols in the 14th century...

Quote
The 14th century AD massacres of Timur in particular, devastated the Assyrian people. Timur’s massacres and pillages of all that was Christian drastically reduced their existence. At the end of the reign of Timur, the Assyrian population had almost been eradicated in many places. Toward the end of the thirteenth century, Bar Hebraeus (or Bar-Abraya), the noted Assyrian scholar and hierarch, found “much quietness” in his diocese in Mesopotamia. Syria’s diocese, he wrote, was “wasted.”

The Syriac Orthodox is the largest Orthodox Church here in Sweden as well, and non-ethnic Syrics are converting (just the other day one was baptised).

To the OP, I say read, visit, pray, etc. Even something like listening to hymns, which sounds the "best" to you?
Logged

The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2013, 03:23:43 AM »

It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population.


Not that it matters for purposes of this thread, but OO's in Egypt make up about ten percent of the population, whereas OO's in Armenia make up more than 90 percent of the population.

I like to say that percentage-wise we may have small numbers in the world, but our faithful make up a large percentage of the martyrs in heaven.  The experience of the OO's has been one of almost constant persecution and martyrdom in the name of Christ.  We are the Church of Martyrs, which would be one reason why we are not so numerous or powerful in the world.
Logged

dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,102


« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2013, 03:43:16 AM »

And also, in the case of the Syriacs and the Copts in particular, OOs could not count on government patronage to protect them or aid the spread of the faith. I mean, reading Coptic history...sheesh...never a moment's peace, it seems! From Diocletian, the aftermath of Chalcedon, the raids of the Berbers, the invasion and permanent occupation of the Arabs, etc. Even if the Copts are somehow doctrinally wrong (which obviously I do not believe they are  Smiley), it would seem that God sure wants them to survive, seeing as He has preserved them through 2,000 years of intense persecution. Not only that, at least according to some sources I have read (e.g., Attwater), as recently as the WWII period there were less than 1 million Coptic faithful in Egypt. Today there are about 8-12 million (depending on whose figure you believe).
Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2013, 03:59:53 AM »

This is a good article about the Genocide mentioned earlier by Suryoyutho:

http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

It unfortunately doesn't go into as much detail about the Syriac Orthodox Christians who were decimated during that time, but it gives a good idea about the persecution suffered by Orthodox Christians (both OO and EO) during the 20th century.

Logged

Suryoyutho
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Suryoyo (Syriac)
Posts: 188



« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2013, 04:12:43 AM »

Yes, the total for "Syrians and Nestorians" in that event should probably be more like 250,000 to 750,000.

We also have around 25,000 just before, in the late 1800's, in the Massacres of Diyarbakir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Diyarbakir_(1895)

etc.
Logged

The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2013, 04:28:50 AM »

Why should one convert to Orthodoxy as opposed to Oriental Orthodoxy?
Oriental Orthodoxy *is* Orthodoxy.

Anyway, I'd suggest you earnestly seek God and ask Him to guide you to the truth. I don't think it's right for us to try and guide you either way.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
sheep100
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 10


« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2013, 04:29:29 AM »

I don't know if this helps or not, but for me one of the reasons
I decided for EO over OO is the distribution and numbers of both churches.
It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population. As Christ said:
"by their fruits you shall know them".Catholics.  I am not saying that the OO are bad fruit
just that they are not as fertile(in the sense of growing in church membership) as the EO or RC churches. The lack of diversity and stagnation of church membership growth is a
evidence(not a proof) that the church is not catholic.



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 

I think those posters who have emphasized the need for studying the Christological issues, becoming familiar with concrete communities, and praying for God's guidance in determining where he wants one to be are on the right track. 

The "numbers" approach described above surely cannot be correct, else Western Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism trump all forms of Christian Orthodoxy.  Is it "numbers plus distribution"?  Even so, the problem remains.  Israel, from which came Christ, has always been a small bit of humanity compared to the rest of the planet, yet we don't discount their "correctness" regarding matters of faith relative to the other nations just because they were not as numerous or well represented across the globe.  They were "right" because they were "right", because God revealed his Word--his truth--to them in a way he didn't to the other nations.  And the Church is the Church because it, too, is "right": what God has revealed and handed down she has kept and passed on without change.  That's what you have to look for, not simply a few vital statistics.   

Is the numerically limited membership and distribution of the OO Churches, whether at present or throughout history, simply an "infertility" issue, or are there other historical factors at play?  Might it, in some way, be an element of divine providence, a "faithful remnant" whom God has seen fit to keep small for whatever reason?  We could ask the same, obviously, regarding the EO Churches, larger than us but smaller than others.  After all, from an Orthodox perspective, the larger numbers and distribution of the Roman Catholic Church have nothing to do with the fact that their beliefs on certain key issues are just plain heretodox (leaving aside for now other factors, like reproduction, wars, relative freedom or oppression, forced conversions and other bad missionary methods, etc.).             

The Church was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic when it was just a hundred and twenty people coming out of their "upper room" hide-out in a city on the borders of the Roman Empire on the Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.  If it maintains that same Orthodox faith, it still remains all of those things two thousand years later, even if it is just forty million or so Egyptians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Indians in their "homelands" or scattered "abroad".  It's about the faith; don't get distracted by math.       

 
Thank you for your reply. I do not intend to demean in any way the Oriental Orthodox. My post only has bearing for a person who has narrowed down their decision to OO or EO as the true Church of Christ after careful study of the Scriptures and Church history and the testimony of the Fathers.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2013, 09:33:03 AM »

a person who has narrowed down their decision to OO or EO as the true Church of Christ
I think it's acceptable to say both-and instead of either-or regarding the EO and OO being the Church of Christ. Many people do on both sides, and I'm one of those people. Wink
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2013, 10:14:09 AM »

I will also add one more point:

It is important to understand that there are two ambiguities in the dogmatic traditions and not to stumble because of this.   

In the Alexandrian tradition, sometimes "physis" is used to mean hypostasis and sometimes to mean ousia.  Both are fine, but need to be read in context.  In the Roman and Asia Minor traditions, "physis" always means "ousia."

Similarly, (but with a different word) In the Roman and Asia Minor tradition, "Word" (Logos) is sometimes used to refer to the hypostasis of the Son, and at other times is used with reference to the divine essence of the Son.  Again, each is ok, so long as read correctly and in context.  In the Alexandrian tradition, "Word" (Logos) almost always exclusively refers to the hypostasis (person) of the Son. 
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,647



« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2013, 10:59:13 AM »

If I recall correctly, that poster had some rather inaccurate notions about what the OO's believe.  I think this was the topic of at least one thread in the private forum.  

My advice to the OP is to read sources written by OO's about what the OO's believe

IIRC the idea of that blog was exactly that. Just translations from medieval Arab OO Fathers without his/her interpretation
Logged
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2013, 11:50:42 AM »

I don't know if this helps or not, but for me one of the reasons
I decided for EO over OO is the distribution and numbers of both churches.
It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population. As Christ said:
"by their fruits you shall know them".Catholics.  I am not saying that the OO are bad fruit
just that they are not as fertile(in the sense of growing in church membership) as the EO or RC churches. The lack of diversity and stagnation of church membership growth is a
evidence(not a proof) that the church is not catholic.



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 

I think those posters who have emphasized the need for studying the Christological issues, becoming familiar with concrete communities, and praying for God's guidance in determining where he wants one to be are on the right track. 

The "numbers" approach described above surely cannot be correct, else Western Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism trump all forms of Christian Orthodoxy.  Is it "numbers plus distribution"?  Even so, the problem remains.  Israel, from which came Christ, has always been a small bit of humanity compared to the rest of the planet, yet we don't discount their "correctness" regarding matters of faith relative to the other nations just because they were not as numerous or well represented across the globe.  They were "right" because they were "right", because God revealed his Word--his truth--to them in a way he didn't to the other nations.  And the Church is the Church because it, too, is "right": what God has revealed and handed down she has kept and passed on without change.  That's what you have to look for, not simply a few vital statistics.   

Is the numerically limited membership and distribution of the OO Churches, whether at present or throughout history, simply an "infertility" issue, or are there other historical factors at play?  Might it, in some way, be an element of divine providence, a "faithful remnant" whom God has seen fit to keep small for whatever reason?  We could ask the same, obviously, regarding the EO Churches, larger than us but smaller than others.  After all, from an Orthodox perspective, the larger numbers and distribution of the Roman Catholic Church have nothing to do with the fact that their beliefs on certain key issues are just plain heretodox (leaving aside for now other factors, like reproduction, wars, relative freedom or oppression, forced conversions and other bad missionary methods, etc.).             

The Church was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic when it was just a hundred and twenty people coming out of their "upper room" hide-out in a city on the borders of the Roman Empire on the Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.  If it maintains that same Orthodox faith, it still remains all of those things two thousand years later, even if it is just forty million or so Egyptians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Indians in their "homelands" or scattered "abroad".  It's about the faith; don't get distracted by math.       

 
Thank you for your reply. I do not intend to demean in any way the Oriental Orthodox. My post only has bearing for a person who has narrowed down their decision to OO or EO as the true Church of Christ after careful study of the Scriptures and Church history and the testimony of the Fathers.

Dear Sheep, I think as a christian it is imperative that you understand that when Christ spoke about fruits  he was not talking about numbers. and if you understand the depth of what He meant when he spoke of fruits, then you understand that numbers, bank accounts, political influence mean nothing to the Son of God Son of Mary, as much as the heart of the one that has found Union with the Holy Spirit and bears His Fruit. The Holy Spirit is the Treasure and the Treasurer of All Gifts, and He dwells in, measures and judges  not in number of heads but the heart. neither smallness nor being plenty is not by itself an evidence of Truth.so if the whole world was to apostasies and you alone were to stand in The Faith, in that very moment you are the Church of Christ The Victorious! I am not speaking this in regards to being OO or EO, but to emphasizes one important point to your spiritual life as a Christian my friend your perception of Truth should never rely on Numbers, besides In Seeking the Way the Truth  and the Life ,you should know you are seeking the Narrow Gate and the Strait Way. and the encounter is very Personal.

In Christ,
Hiwot.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2013, 11:56:04 AM »



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 


Welcome back my dear brother!!!  Grin  how good it is to see you post again! I have been reading your previous posts and have been much edified by them.May God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,470


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2013, 12:16:40 PM »

some good points, esp. by father h and salpy.
i would add one more;
as we are all a bit wrong (even some of our church fathers!), then read, visit, pray and ask God Himself to guide you. He will do that.

i spent most of my free time for 3 or 4 years (before and just after i became orthodox 4 years ago) reading up on these subjects from all angles, and i also have been to several EO and many OO liturgies (and catholics too; once i decided to become orthodox, i spent lots of time in catholic churches just to be sure!)
i (and i am not a priest or teacher) realised that the most important thing God needed to do with me was to teach me humility, and that the coptic (OO) church i had found contained many humble people (some are really like angles, but don't tell them, they may become proud!) who could help me massively on my spiritual journey.
of course, on the way, i learnt a lot of good theology.

so, if i was in a place where the only OO church contained many proud people who just liked having fun, and the EO church contained humble monks and married people and people who had left behind many things to follow Jesus Christ, then i would feel like joining the EO church. of course, there would then be a risk that i could spoil it!
(don't look for the 'perfect' church, you may spoil it!)
what i am trying to say, is that theology is very important, but it is not 100% important, and you should ask God to guide you (and your family / friends who may follow you) to the right place (very likely it will be EO or OO church) on your spiritual journey.

may God give u peace and direction.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2013, 12:46:21 PM »

If I recall correctly, that poster had some rather inaccurate notions about what the OO's believe.  I think this was the topic of at least one thread in the private forum.  

My advice to the OP is to read sources written by OO's about what the OO's believe

IIRC the idea of that blog was exactly that. Just translations from medieval Arab OO Fathers without his/her interpretation

You're right, the blog was only translations. Here it is: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/
Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 800


WWW
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2013, 12:50:10 PM »

I agree with Mabsoota's sentiment.

I personally think that it is more important the find a good priest who is well rooted in Orthodox spirituality, who is saintly, and who is able to raise up others in Orthodoxy, who is surrounded by people who are following Christ with him, in obedience to him, growing in virtue (whether there are many other people in the parish there for cultural reasons or not), and to strive to become integrated into that community, and learn and grow towards Christ with them, than to find a parish that is part of the Eastern Communion or part of the Oriental Communion. If you find an island of Orthodoxy among the ethnic and pseudoprotestant parishes, that's the main thing, in my opinion. I know many people will disagree strongly with that opinion, but that is what I feel.

That said, I believe that my being in the Coptic tradition was not my choosing, and it would take a sever lack of options with that communion and rite for me to consider going elsewhere in Orthodoxy. If you pray and seek God's will, He will reveal to you the place He's chosen for you. That doesn't mean we don't need to work to understand and learn to overcome whatever obstacles are stumbling blocks to our feeling comfortable, home, and secure in a final parish, but have trust that if you do that work the choice of location (whether pleasant or not) is His and not ours...
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,097


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2013, 01:18:06 PM »

I don't know if this helps or not, but for me one of the reasons
I decided for EO over OO is the distribution and numbers of both churches.
It seems likely to me that Christ's church would have expanded  
beyond Egypt and Ethiopia which are the only two countries where there
are large numbers of OO relative to the rest of the population. As Christ said:
"by their fruits you shall know them".Catholics.  I am not saying that the OO are bad fruit
just that they are not as fertile(in the sense of growing in church membership) as the EO or RC churches. The lack of diversity and stagnation of church membership growth is a
evidence(not a proof) that the church is not catholic.



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 

I think those posters who have emphasized the need for studying the Christological issues, becoming familiar with concrete communities, and praying for God's guidance in determining where he wants one to be are on the right track. 

The "numbers" approach described above surely cannot be correct, else Western Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism trump all forms of Christian Orthodoxy.  Is it "numbers plus distribution"?  Even so, the problem remains.  Israel, from which came Christ, has always been a small bit of humanity compared to the rest of the planet, yet we don't discount their "correctness" regarding matters of faith relative to the other nations just because they were not as numerous or well represented across the globe.  They were "right" because they were "right", because God revealed his Word--his truth--to them in a way he didn't to the other nations.  And the Church is the Church because it, too, is "right": what God has revealed and handed down she has kept and passed on without change.  That's what you have to look for, not simply a few vital statistics.   

Is the numerically limited membership and distribution of the OO Churches, whether at present or throughout history, simply an "infertility" issue, or are there other historical factors at play?  Might it, in some way, be an element of divine providence, a "faithful remnant" whom God has seen fit to keep small for whatever reason?  We could ask the same, obviously, regarding the EO Churches, larger than us but smaller than others.  After all, from an Orthodox perspective, the larger numbers and distribution of the Roman Catholic Church have nothing to do with the fact that their beliefs on certain key issues are just plain heretodox (leaving aside for now other factors, like reproduction, wars, relative freedom or oppression, forced conversions and other bad missionary methods, etc.).             

The Church was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic when it was just a hundred and twenty people coming out of their "upper room" hide-out in a city on the borders of the Roman Empire on the Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.  If it maintains that same Orthodox faith, it still remains all of those things two thousand years later, even if it is just forty million or so Egyptians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Indians in their "homelands" or scattered "abroad".  It's about the faith; don't get distracted by math.       

 

Semmasen!  Welcome back, hopefully for a more frequent manner Smiley
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2013, 01:30:04 PM »



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 


Welcome back my dear brother!!!  Grin  how good it is to see you post again! I have been reading your previous posts and have been much edified by them.May God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot.

May I Join you in your welcoming back of our too-long silent brother?  Smiley Smiley Smiley

Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,097


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2013, 01:44:21 PM »

If communion with Rome is not the guarantee of orthodoxy, I find myself at a loss. There are schisms within Orthodoxy. Why should one convert to Orthodoxy as opposed to Oriental Orthodoxy? Do the Oriental Orthodox consider the other Orthodox Churches schismatic?

Please, enlighten me.

I don't think there is much to add on my part after what has been written here.  I just want you to be mindful of the fact that there are those of us who don't not see it as "either EO or OO" but that wherever you go in either the EO or the OO Church, there exists the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Whereas there are those of us who will adamantly say that the other is not of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Therefore, while you will probably want to do the research of the differences, and visit parishes for your own personal investigation, consider the option of whether you want to consider both EOs and OOs as one Church, where it won't make a difference for you, or whether you really do personally feel that you have to choose one or the other.

I've recently read a chapter of ecclesiology by Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck.  I think reading his ecclesiological theology will help you understand why it's not so difficult for some to think that the EOs and OOs are one church.  The book he wrote is "His Broken Body", and you can also read a reply he made to a Catholic priest here, outlining his errors in ecclesiological thought:

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/an-orthodox-reply-to-why-i-didnt-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy/
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:52:40 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2013, 01:46:56 PM »



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 


Welcome back my dear brother!!!  Grin  how good it is to see you post again! I have been reading your previous posts and have been much edified by them.May God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot.

May I Join you in your welcoming back of our too-long silent brother?  Smiley Smiley Smiley



Indeed you may dear Aristoklis Grin its my joy to have you with me in welcoming him Smiley
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,852


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2013, 02:32:52 PM »

I find it hard to stomach the idea that the EO are somehow "more catholic" than the OO just because there are more of them in different places.
That's because it's silly.

If communion with Rome is not the guarantee of orthodoxy
It's important to remember that communion with a centralized organization, and external unity, are things that you have been taught and conditioned to desire above almost all else. There are historical reasons why the church of rome has this mindset: The Donatist, Novatianist, and other major schismatic movements, the lack of any major "competing" sees in the West, and the progression of documents like Dictatus Papae and Pastor Aeternus.

So ask yourself when you feel these emotions, are they coming from that church's conditioning, or something else, or what? And then ask yourself, should you listen or not?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:37:18 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,417



« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2013, 02:35:19 PM »



Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 


Welcome back my dear brother!!!  Grin  how good it is to see you post again! I have been reading your previous posts and have been much edified by them.May God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot.

May I Join you in your welcoming back of our too-long silent brother?  Smiley Smiley Smiley



Indeed you may dear Aristoklis Grin its my joy to have you with me in welcoming him Smiley


Ditto! Maybe if we all beg of him, Mor Ephrem won't be such a stranger anymore.
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
Samn!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 302


« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2013, 02:43:31 PM »

No, the blog in question is-- http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com


quote author=Nephi link=topic=49228.msg866376#msg866376 date=1358441181]
If I recall correctly, that poster had some rather inaccurate notions about what the OO's believe.  I think this was the topic of at least one thread in the private forum.  

My advice to the OP is to read sources written by OO's about what the OO's believe

IIRC the idea of that blog was exactly that. Just translations from medieval Arab OO Fathers without his/her interpretation

You're right, the blog was only translations. Here it is: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/
[/quote]
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2013, 02:48:30 PM »

No, the blog in question is-- http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com


IIRC the idea of that blog was exactly that. Just translations from medieval Arab OO Fathers without his/her interpretation

You're right, the blog was only translations. Here it is: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/

Oops, sorry about that.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,537


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2013, 02:47:54 AM »

Thanks for the welcome back, guys, I've missed many of you!
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2013, 03:15:32 AM »

Belated, but welcome back from me as well! though you probably remember me as Paradosis Smiley
Logged

Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,228


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2013, 03:34:50 AM »

I am Ethiopian Orthodox (Non-Chalcedonian), and I will always defend our Christological language as the purest linguistic expression of Our Lord's hypostatic nature. But I also firmly believe that there is no fundamental, actual difference in the Christology of the Non-Chalcedonian and Chalcedonian Churches. We all affirm St. Cyril's Christological definition of "fully God and fully man, without separation division, or confusion." I have great hope that all Orthodox Churches will be formally united in God's due time. If you are close to a Non-Chalcedonian Church, then of course I would encourage you to enter into our ancient Faith. But if there are only Eastern Orthodox Churches close to you, then I would encourage you to enter into the Faith there. That is only my humble opinion. May God grant you wisdom and peace.



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,852


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2013, 05:48:43 PM »

I also firmly believe that there is no fundamental, actual difference in the Christology of the Non-Chalcedonian and Chalcedonian Churches.

What about:


"I now realize that the source of denominational church division in the West resulted from the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., which divided the nature of Our Lord into two. As soon as I learned the meaning of the Ethiopic word "Tewahedo" ("Unity," "Oneness"), I recognized its significance. Satan knew that if he could deceive men into separating and dividing the nature of Our Lord, then the Christian Church would subsequently be separated, divided, and fractured into a thousand pieces."

http://mysteryandmeaning.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-spiritual-journey.html

Wink
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2013, 07:45:30 PM »

There are many who have gone at least temporarily spiritually insane spending too much time comtemplating the EO/OO differences. They strain out gnats only to be trampled by camels. If you happen to have both near you, investigate both. Get to know EOs and OOs and their priests. Find out what actual spiritual life is like for each. If your soul is not spiritually hungry but merely wants to be right, then you are probably not proceeding from a good position. But, perhaps in one or the other or both you will find that for which your soul hungers. If so, then you will have further, more practical questions.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,228


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2013, 08:06:42 PM »

I also firmly believe that there is no fundamental, actual difference in the Christology of the Non-Chalcedonian and Chalcedonian Churches.

What about:


"I now realize that the source of denominational church division in the West resulted from the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., which divided the nature of Our Lord into two. As soon as I learned the meaning of the Ethiopic word "Tewahedo" ("Unity," "Oneness"), I recognized its significance. Satan knew that if he could deceive men into separating and dividing the nature of Our Lord, then the Christian Church would subsequently be separated, divided, and fractured into a thousand pieces."

http://mysteryandmeaning.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-spiritual-journey.html

Wink


Yes, I still believe that the erroneous Christological language at Chalcedon did indeed sow foul seeds of subsequent division. That seems pretty clear. However, as I said, I really believe that the division resulted from the language rather than any actual substantive difference. Just my opinion. I pray for unity.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2013, 08:23:10 PM »

I will also add one more point:

It is important to understand that there are two ambiguities in the dogmatic traditions and not to stumble because of this.   

In the Alexandrian tradition, sometimes "physis" is used to mean hypostasis and sometimes to mean ousia.  Both are fine, but need to be read in context.  In the Roman and Asia Minor traditions, "physis" always means "ousia."

Similarly, (but with a different word) In the Roman and Asia Minor tradition, "Word" (Logos) is sometimes used to refer to the hypostasis of the Son, and at other times is used with reference to the divine essence of the Son.  Again, each is ok, so long as read correctly and in context.  In the Alexandrian tradition, "Word" (Logos) almost always exclusively refers to the hypostasis (person) of the Son. 

Thank you, Father. It's nice to have a good synthesis.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2013, 04:37:04 AM »

A post with a polemical allegation about the OO's has been moved to the private forum.  It has been merged with a thread that has already discussed the assertion:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47807.msg867033.html#msg867033

I'm going to ask that people keep to the topic here and restrict polemical allegations about other Churches to the private forum.  

Anyone who wants to join the private forum can pm Fr. George and ask him for admission.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 04:40:57 AM by Salpy » Logged

Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2013, 08:39:41 AM »

Quote
I just want you to be mindful of the fact that there are those of us who don't not see it as "either EO or OO" but that wherever you go in either the EO or the OO Church, there exists the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Very wise words, and I completely agree!
Logged
Jules_Grant
Anglo-Catholic with Byzantine theology turned Western-rite Orthodox Catholic
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Western-rite Orthodox Catholicism (Anglo-Catholicism with Byzantine theology)
Posts: 21


Virgin of virgins, pray for us.


« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2013, 09:28:48 AM »

If you find an island of Orthodoxy among the ethnic and pseudoprotestant parishes, that's the main thing, in my opinion. I know many people will disagree strongly with that opinion, but that is what I feel.

That's a big thing I suffer from. I love the Greek Church in Orthodoxy and in Eastern Catholicism, but when I attend, I feel I'm a non-Greek who's out of place, though I believe either the same or close to the same thing they do. It's really uncomfortable, so I do hope you consider finding a (no offense) mixed parish with a variety of ethnicities and even families which show exactly what Orthdoxy should be, everyone's faith, not the cradle Orthodox of ethnic Romanian's faith.

No offense, again. I know that's a major bump, but I wanted to share how exactly it makes me feel. I'm new here, so I'm trying to feel my way into the forum and discussions, sorry.
Logged

"Those who fear the Lord do not disobey his words, and those who love him keep his ways."
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,470


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2013, 10:09:57 AM »

welcome, and feel free to make your point.
as 'one who seeks God', you will find that He may be found.
 Smiley
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2013, 11:42:41 AM »

Forgive me, brethren, but I had to come out of my extreme, intergalactic hibernation when I read this.  Greetings to all, whether I know you from the past or not.  :-) 

Mor!  Great to read you again.  I was just wondering how you were doing a couple of weeks ago when I went by the Indian Orth. Church that's a couple-three miles down the way.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Andrew Crook
formerly known as AveChriste11
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 523



« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2013, 01:58:11 PM »

If you find an island of Orthodoxy among the ethnic and pseudoprotestant parishes, that's the main thing, in my opinion. I know many people will disagree strongly with that opinion, but that is what I feel.

That's a big thing I suffer from. I love the Greek Church in Orthodoxy and in Eastern Catholicism, but when I attend, I feel I'm a non-Greek who's out of place, though I believe either the same or close to the same thing they do. It's really uncomfortable, so I do hope you consider finding a (no offense) mixed parish with a variety of ethnicities and even families which show exactly what Orthdoxy should be, everyone's faith, not the cradle Orthodox of ethnic Romanian's faith.

No offense, again. I know that's a major bump, but I wanted to share how exactly it makes me feel. I'm new here, so I'm trying to feel my way into the forum and discussions, sorry.

I understand what you mean Jules, it was difficult for me to get past that "cultural" aspect as well when I started going to my first Greek church.  When I do go there, I still don't stay around for coffee hour -- but that's just me and my social anxiety, heheh...
Logged

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,102


« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2013, 02:06:35 PM »

Am I the only one who goes to a not-like-me church (culturally) and figures there is a give and take to be participated in? They already do 80% of the liturgy in English, and the non-English parts are generally repeated in English (even though they don't really need to be; translations are always provided). The Agape meal is a different story, of course, but if I want to know what is going on and I can't catch all the Arabic, I'll ask. Just like when they want to know a word in English, they'll ask me.

It's a pretty good system, I think. I'm happy where I am, even if the arguing is not my style. Smiley

Logged

Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 800


WWW
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2013, 02:57:03 PM »

Am I the only one who goes to a not-like-me church (culturally) and figures there is a give and take to be participated in? They already do 80% of the liturgy in English, and the non-English parts are generally repeated in English (even though they don't really need to be; translations are always provided). The Agape meal is a different story, of course, but if I want to know what is going on and I can't catch all the Arabic, I'll ask. Just like when they want to know a word in English, they'll ask me.

It's a pretty good system, I think. I'm happy where I am, even if the arguing is not my style. Smiley



I don't think that's the kind of issue people have meant here Smiley Demographically, there's going to be a lot of culture clash in Orthodoxy right now, that's to be expected... the issue is whether you're going to a church with a strong ethnic tie, or a culture club that has a church... if they're asking you what english words mean and you're conversing with them, that sounds like a great, health interaction. If they're asking you "why would you want to be here, this is for [insert ethnicity]", and the little church beside the big [insert ethnicity] center/reception hall is used mostly for baptisms, weddings, and funerals, then it might not be an ideal place to pursue entering into the depth of Orthodoxy if alternatives exist Smiley
Logged
Pharaoh714
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Rite
Posts: 147


Lord Have Mercy! Christ Save me.


« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2013, 05:12:58 PM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.

Then I think there's no alternative but to look into Chalcedon. Do you agree with the Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian position? If like some of us (myself for instance) you think that both sides are effectively saying the same thing, then I think you still have to work out who you think is in schism from whom. It's messy, it's ugly and it's tragic, but if you really are in a quandary, I can't see any way of avoiding taking a good hard look at it.

James

Why do all Catholics ( by that I mean E.O , R.C and O.O) See that the church cannot exist as One in faith no matter the internal divisions?

For instance when St. Mark had his differences with St. Paul did the Christians say Are you part of the True Church of St. Mark or are you with Pauls Church??
The same thing when St. Peter and Paul differed. Did not St. Paul say that we should not make the Church based on people.

Is our Faith the same or not?

I know a lot of E.O who make up stuff about the Copts and it really bothers me. They keep inventing things that we believe in which we Don't. It's time to accept that the Apostolic Church can exist despite our internal human differences.

When Joseph (the son of Jacob) was abandoned in Egypt by his brother did he stop being (Orthodox?) in his faith with God?? He was separated from his brothers... But God still saw him as Israel too. (Aka the Church).

Being Orthodox is about the Correct Apostolic Faith not just being connected to Greece, Alexandria, or Rome.. Yes the Church has its differences because man err.  

To the OP - As a Coptic Orthodox I will not tell you what to Chose but I would be happy if you go either way because deep down I know both the O.O and the E.O have the same believes about the Son of God; and hold the True Apostolic Faith.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 05:14:47 PM by Pharaoh714 » Logged

"If I say, "My foot slips," Your mercy, O LORD, will hold me up. In the multitude of my anxieties within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Psalm 94:18-19
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2013, 06:41:29 PM »

Mor Ephrem has seemingly left us again Sad Oh well, a few more years and he'll come back again I bet!
Logged

Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2013, 08:53:27 PM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.

Then I think there's no alternative but to look into Chalcedon. Do you agree with the Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian position? If like some of us (myself for instance) you think that both sides are effectively saying the same thing, then I think you still have to work out who you think is in schism from whom. It's messy, it's ugly and it's tragic, but if you really are in a quandary, I can't see any way of avoiding taking a good hard look at it.

James

Why do all Catholics ( by that I mean E.O , R.C and O.O) See that the church cannot exist as One in faith no matter the internal divisions?

For instance when St. Mark had his differences with St. Paul did the Christians say Are you part of the True Church of St. Mark or are you with Pauls Church??
The same thing when St. Peter and Paul differed. Did not St. Paul say that we should not make the Church based on people.

Is our Faith the same or not?

I know a lot of E.O who make up stuff about the Copts and it really bothers me. They keep inventing things that we believe in which we Don't. It's time to accept that the Apostolic Church can exist despite our internal human differences.

When Joseph (the son of Jacob) was abandoned in Egypt by his brother did he stop being (Orthodox?) in his faith with God?? He was separated from his brothers... But God still saw him as Israel too. (Aka the Church).

Being Orthodox is about the Correct Apostolic Faith not just being connected to Greece, Alexandria, or Rome.. Yes the Church has its differences because man err.  

To the OP - As a Coptic Orthodox I will not tell you what to Chose but I would be happy if you go either way because deep down I know both the O.O and the E.O have the same believes about the Son of God; and hold the True Apostolic Faith.


You're not honestly saying the Latins are a part of the Church, are you?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,102


« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2013, 09:12:46 PM »

Yeah, as someone who left the Latin Church to join Orthodoxy, I have a real problem with that. With all due respect to my Latin friends, the Latin Church is in no way a part of the Orthodox Church. Would that it were (as it once was), but that's not reality as we've been living it for the past...many centuries.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 09:13:09 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2013, 09:21:16 PM »

Mor Ephrem has seemingly left us again Sad Oh well, a few more years and he'll come back again I bet!



COME BACK!!!
Logged

Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 800


WWW
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2013, 11:19:58 PM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.

Then I think there's no alternative but to look into Chalcedon. Do you agree with the Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian position? If like some of us (myself for instance) you think that both sides are effectively saying the same thing, then I think you still have to work out who you think is in schism from whom. It's messy, it's ugly and it's tragic, but if you really are in a quandary, I can't see any way of avoiding taking a good hard look at it.

James

Why do all Catholics ( by that I mean E.O , R.C and O.O) See that the church cannot exist as One in faith no matter the internal divisions?

For instance when St. Mark had his differences with St. Paul did the Christians say Are you part of the True Church of St. Mark or are you with Pauls Church??
The same thing when St. Peter and Paul differed. Did not St. Paul say that we should not make the Church based on people.

Is our Faith the same or not?

I know a lot of E.O who make up stuff about the Copts and it really bothers me. They keep inventing things that we believe in which we Don't. It's time to accept that the Apostolic Church can exist despite our internal human differences.

When Joseph (the son of Jacob) was abandoned in Egypt by his brother did he stop being (Orthodox?) in his faith with God?? He was separated from his brothers... But God still saw him as Israel too. (Aka the Church).

Being Orthodox is about the Correct Apostolic Faith not just being connected to Greece, Alexandria, or Rome.. Yes the Church has its differences because man err.  

To the OP - As a Coptic Orthodox I will not tell you what to Chose but I would be happy if you go either way because deep down I know both the O.O and the E.O have the same believes about the Son of God; and hold the True Apostolic Faith.

But what about the person in church who knows deep down in their heart that the Protestants have the same true Christian faith as us?

It is not for us to decide these things, when we do, we place ourself above the Church, rather than in obedient submission to her. This is a spiritually dangerous place to be.

St. Paul and St. Mark did not anathematize each other. This is the difference with the scenario you present. There are many disagreements between hierarchs in each Communion, but they are still in Communion. The EO and the OO are not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that position (and I, like you, think it needs to change) if we place ourselves above the Church and say that the declarations of the Church don't matter, then we are trusting in our own judgement instead of the judgement of the fathers. Who are you or I by ourselves to decide where to draw the line? EO, Catholics, Nestorians, Protestants, Mormons, Buddhists? You may say I'm being ridiculous because you know the line you're drawing after EO is right... but what about others in our Churches who know just as well that Protestants are the same too? It is not for you or I alone to draw this line, but the the Church, that is, all of us together, under the leadership of the bishops, to draw the lines together.
Logged
Pharaoh714
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Rite
Posts: 147


Lord Have Mercy! Christ Save me.


« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2013, 02:13:18 AM »

Not at all. Whatever you call them, they are the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. I want to be part of the true Church... I used to be certain that was the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. I'm looking East... but not sure where to go.

Then I think there's no alternative but to look into Chalcedon. Do you agree with the Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian position? If like some of us (myself for instance) you think that both sides are effectively saying the same thing, then I think you still have to work out who you think is in schism from whom. It's messy, it's ugly and it's tragic, but if you really are in a quandary, I can't see any way of avoiding taking a good hard look at it.

James

Why do all Catholics ( by that I mean E.O , R.C and O.O) See that the church cannot exist as One in faith no matter the internal divisions?

For instance when St. Mark had his differences with St. Paul did the Christians say Are you part of the True Church of St. Mark or are you with Pauls Church??
The same thing when St. Peter and Paul differed. Did not St. Paul say that we should not make the Church based on people.

Is our Faith the same or not?

I know a lot of E.O who make up stuff about the Copts and it really bothers me. They keep inventing things that we believe in which we Don't. It's time to accept that the Apostolic Church can exist despite our internal human differences.

When Joseph (the son of Jacob) was abandoned in Egypt by his brother did he stop being (Orthodox?) in his faith with God?? He was separated from his brothers... But God still saw him as Israel too. (Aka the Church).

Being Orthodox is about the Correct Apostolic Faith not just being connected to Greece, Alexandria, or Rome.. Yes the Church has its differences because man err.  

To the OP - As a Coptic Orthodox I will not tell you what to Chose but I would be happy if you go either way because deep down I know both the O.O and the E.O have the same believes about the Son of God; and hold the True Apostolic Faith.


You're not honestly saying the Latins are a part of the Church, are you?


No - I told the OP to choose from E.O or O.O. But I said the  (E.O, O.O and Catholics) have that mindset of the Church being as I described above. Unity of dialogue and communion and not Unity of Faith.  It should be the other way around. Unity should be based on Faith first then the others.
Logged

"If I say, "My foot slips," Your mercy, O LORD, will hold me up. In the multitude of my anxieties within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Psalm 94:18-19
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,417



« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »

"If one says 'one nature' in the sense of unmixable and indivisible union and not in the sense of confusion, and if one says 'two natures' as being without confusion and without alteration and not meaning 'division' [then] both are within the orbit of Orthodoxy."

-St. Nerses the Gracious

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/article08.html
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,852


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2013, 12:16:05 PM »

"Anathema to whoever says 'one nature' in such a way as to abolish Christ's flesh that is con-substantial with us, and anathema to whoever says 'two natures' in such a way as to divide the Son of God."

-Eustathius of Berytus
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 12:17:08 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,228


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2013, 02:01:54 AM »

Two great quotes in the posts above. Thanks for sharing these!



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,537


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2013, 03:05:46 PM »

Mor Ephrem has seemingly left us again Sad Oh well, a few more years and he'll come back again I bet!



COME BACK!!!

I came back...not only am I nursing my bruised ego over not qualifying for Pope, but I can't resist cute babies and kitty cats.  :-P 

Hi Ebor!  Hope you and the family are well!  Is the Indian parish near you the one in Silver Spring?  If so, my classmate is the priest there.  His name is Fr Andrew...if you visit, tell him Dn Phil sent you.  You might get a second free doughnut at coffee hour.  ;-)
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,417



« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2013, 03:39:45 PM »

Yeah, he's back...for now. Someone needs to start a "best of Mor Ephrem" thread.

The "Laying Claim" thread is definitely a classic

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,8/action,display/threadid,2430.html

But my favorite of all is on a certain cafe site. It's linked here

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=3324.0
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2013, 03:47:37 PM »


But my favorite of all is on a certain cafe site. It's linked here

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=3324.0

Quote from: Mor Ephrem
If Greek is for Orthodox only, then why does the EP use Greek?

Oh man, this was probably the hardest I've laughed in a while. Thanks for the link.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2013, 09:53:47 PM »

Mor Ephrem has seemingly left us again Sad Oh well, a few more years and he'll come back again I bet!



COME BACK!!!

I came back...not only am I nursing my bruised ego over not qualifying for Pope, but I can't resist cute babies and kitty cats.  :-P 


Well, I'm glad it worked.   Smiley
Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2013, 12:49:44 AM »

A tangent in which someone called the OO's heretics was split off and put into the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49953.msg881260.html#msg881260

People who want access to the private forum need to contact Fr. George and ask him for admission.

Just a reminder about the rules here:  People are free to disagree with the OO's here as long as they are polite about it.  You don't have to call us Orthodox, but polemics and name calling are for the private forum.
Logged

CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,417



« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2013, 09:59:21 AM »




COME BACK!!!

Well, I'm glad it worked.   Smiley

I still laugh every time I see that picture, Salpy.  Well done!
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.262 seconds with 110 queries.