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Author Topic: Does Holy Communion affect Celiac Disease?  (Read 1569 times) Average Rating: 0
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SolEX01
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« on: January 14, 2013, 01:30:38 AM »

It was said many years ago in the Convert Issues board before the thread was resurrected due to one poster's personal circumstances:

If Holy Communion can kill a person with Celiac Disease, perhaps they ought not get in line regardless of faith.  If partaking the Body and Blood of Christ can kill a person; Gee, there's only a handful of evil people who died in the Epistles - none by receiving Communion.

I find this response pretty abrasive and heartless.

Holy Communion has no effect on celiac disease.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:45:20 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 01:35:30 AM »

What?
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:04 AM »

The lamb is made with wheat flour, yes? Does the lamb physically change so that it is no longer bread in any way, shape or form?

Would you purposefully give your infant something that is slowly killing them, and causing them not to grow? Your attitude seems rather fatalistic. Well, if you die you die. It isn't about killing a person on the spot. It is about eating something that completely prevents that person from being capable of digesting any food they consume for weeks/months afterward. So no, my son wouldn't die on the spot from Celiac by consuming gluten. But if I chose to give him gluten, and my son doesn't gain weight, the state will take him away because I would be knowingly killing him slowly via malnutrition.

If this were about me personally having celiac disease, it would be different. If Taz was capable of making this decision on his own, it would be different. This is not about me, nor is Taz capable at 11 months to understand either his disease, or why he feels like he does. I have to decide as a parent what to do. I don't take this role as his parent lightly. I do believe communion is invaluable. But it is also triggering misery and verified weight loss in my son. He was over 14 lbs a few days before he had communion, he was below 14 after he had communion.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:52:05 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 01:48:00 AM »

Context:

Yes, I am resurrecting this thread. It has a lot of bearing on our son's life at the moment.

It seems our son Tazzy has a very significant celiac reaction to communion. Considering the fact that at almost 11 months he is 26 inches long (not on the charts) and not quite 14 lbs (not even close to the bottom of the chart), every gluten reaction he has sets him back considerably.

So does anyone that has celiac have any opinions on what I should do? This is not a fad GF diet for us. There are fad GF people at our parish, and of course they do not have a gluten reaction from communion.

To put things into perspective; Taz should be close to 20 lbs, and 30 inches in length. So the fact that he is less than 14 lbs, and 26 inches in length is significant, and attributable to his celiac. His is the most dramatic case his doctor has ever seen.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 01:54:17 AM »

The lamb is made with wheat flour, yes? Does the lamb physically change so that it is no longer bread in any way, shape or form?

It's bread before becoming the body and blood of Jesus Christ.  Does Taz receive the Blessed Bread which may contain gluten?   Huh

Would you purposefully give your infant something that is slowly killing them, and causing them not to grow? Your attitude seems rather fatalistic. Well, if you die you die. It isn't about killing a person on the spot. It is about eating something that completely prevents that person from being capable of digesting any food they consume for weeks/months afterward. So no, my son wouldn't die on the spot from Celiac by consuming gluten. But if I chose to give him gluten, and my son doesn't gain weight, the state will take him away because I would be knowingly killing him slowly via malnutrition.

They diagnosed celiac disease in an infant?   Huh  Giving Holy Communion to an infant equates to starvation and child abuse?   Huh
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 01:57:13 AM »

Holy Communion has no effect on celiac disease.

Please provide sources and evidence for this assertion.

The medical evidence can't be related to communicable diseases (i.e rabies, flu, HIV) since one doesn't catch Celiac disease. Allergy would be the closest related reaction. But that isn't equivalent since one can take medications to counteract an allergic reaction. You can't take something to counteract an autoimmune reaction.
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 01:58:52 AM »

Taz does not receive antidoran, simply communion from the common cup without bread on the spoon. So he doesn't get a crumb of bread, just the contamination from the bread in the wine. And yes, he has been diagnosed Failure to Thrive as well as Celiac. And the Blessed Bread is made from wheat flour, so it does contain gluten.

As soon as a child is diagnosed Failure to Thrive the parents are suspected to have malnourished the child. Since I know what the cause of his FTT is, if I give him gluten on purpose it is akin to child abuse.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:03:57 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 02:00:55 AM »

The lamb is made with wheat flour, yes? Does the lamb physically change so that it is no longer bread in any way, shape or form?

It's bread before becoming the body and blood of Jesus Christ.  Does Taz receive the Blessed Bread which may contain gluten?   Huh

Would you purposefully give your infant something that is slowly killing them, and causing them not to grow? Your attitude seems rather fatalistic. Well, if you die you die. It isn't about killing a person on the spot. It is about eating something that completely prevents that person from being capable of digesting any food they consume for weeks/months afterward. So no, my son wouldn't die on the spot from Celiac by consuming gluten. But if I chose to give him gluten, and my son doesn't gain weight, the state will take him away because I would be knowingly killing him slowly via malnutrition.

They diagnosed celiac disease in an infant?   Huh  Giving Holy Communion to an infant equates to starvation and child abuse?   Huh

Do you know anything at all about celiac disease? Huh Isn't it proper for a parent to try to keep her infant from harm? Huh  And what's with all the questions? Huh
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:03:09 AM by theistgal » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 02:07:41 AM »

Holy Communion has no effect on celiac disease.

Please provide sources and evidence for this assertion.

It's part of the Orthodox faith; It's what I believe and I believe that Holy Communion does not harm the recipient.  It's almost the same argument with alcoholics having fear of relapse for receiving Holy Communion.
 
The medical evidence can't be related to communicable diseases (i.e rabies, flu, HIV) since one doesn't catch Celiac disease. Allergy would be the closest related reaction. But that isn't equivalent since one can take medications to counteract an allergic reaction. You can't take something to counteract an autoimmune reaction.

Churches have made accommodations for people with celiac disease.  Has your parish made an accommodation?
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 02:10:53 AM »

Alcoholism isn't a parallel since to fall back into alcoholism one would have to actively choose to relapse. That is an issue of personal accountability and self control. You can't choose to not have an autoimmune reaction.

I am debating asking for an accommodation. I know that to have my son receive in a safe manner a chalice of the wine before the addition of the bread would be required. Our priest prepares the lamb before Matins, and our parish already uses 2 chalices, so to ask for some to be set aside the priest would have to have 3 vessels for the wine, as well as get permission from the bishop. Since I have never known anyone that asked for this accommodation, I wanted to ask what other celiacs have done.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:14:15 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 02:11:57 AM »

The lamb is made with wheat flour, yes? Does the lamb physically change so that it is no longer bread in any way, shape or form?

It's bread before becoming the body and blood of Jesus Christ.  Does Taz receive the Blessed Bread which may contain gluten?   Huh

Would you purposefully give your infant something that is slowly killing them, and causing them not to grow? Your attitude seems rather fatalistic. Well, if you die you die. It isn't about killing a person on the spot. It is about eating something that completely prevents that person from being capable of digesting any food they consume for weeks/months afterward. So no, my son wouldn't die on the spot from Celiac by consuming gluten. But if I chose to give him gluten, and my son doesn't gain weight, the state will take him away because I would be knowingly killing him slowly via malnutrition.

They diagnosed celiac disease in an infant?   Huh  Giving Holy Communion to an infant equates to starvation and child abuse?   Huh

Do you know anything at all about celiac disease? Huh

Yes.

Isn't it proper for a parent to try to keep her infant from harm? Huh

Of course except when Jesus Christ is allegedly the source of harm.

And what's with all the questions? Huh

I don't like being called abrasive and heartless, almost 5 years after making the initial statement and before Quinault's son was born.
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 02:14:50 AM »

Alcoholism isn't a parallel since to fall back into alcoholism one would have to actively choose to relapse. That is an issue of personal accountability and self control. You can't choose to not have an autoimmune reaction.

You were saying that Taz was failing to thrive before he even touched solid foods (e.g. he wasn't a normal baby in the beginning).

Quote
The celiac, but otherwise normal baby, thrives until gluten is introduced into the diet and then begins to refuse feedings and fails to gain weight.  The child may gradually become irritable or listless and develop a large abdomen.  The stools will typically become abnormal, perhaps large, pale and offensive, or representative of a loose-like diarrhea.  Stools generally float because of the high content of air and fat.  The child may also vomit from time-to-time or in some cases exhibit forceful projectile vomiting with the consumption of selected gluten-containing foods.  Many children lose weight or have a failure to gain weight and the buttocks become flattened.  Some few children may become quite ill with acute diarrhea and dehydration.  Symptoms vary and are different from one celiac child to the next with no two being alike in how the condition “acts out” for them and in their bodies.

http://www.e-celiacs.org/2-Celiac_Disease_in_Children.htm
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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 02:18:40 AM »

He had documented weight gain over the course of 4 weeks before he had communion. We are having him weighed every 10 days or less currently. The only gluten he was exposed to between weight checks was communion. Due to family illnesses (not Taz) and other appointments, commitments, he didn't have communion for about a month. After communion he lost weight. You may question if it is related, his doctor and the specialists do not. I think I trust their medical judgement more than yours Wink

His health was not great before the introduction of solids, but he was gaining weight. His health issues were related to his breathing difficulties, not weight gain. There is zero doubt he is Celiac, so don't attempt to tell me he is not. He was not diagnosed FTT until December after 3 months of zero weight gain. Since his case is so severe, there is evidence to say that because he is breast-fed he was being exposed to gluten before he was ever introduced to solids. Some celiac babies are OK with mom having gluten, Taz can not tolerate any gluten exposure at all.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:29:47 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 02:30:13 AM »

You're certain that Taz didn't receive gluten from other sources (e.g. breastfeeding) besides Holy Communion?  So many foods have gluten.

Since how old has Taz been receiving Communion?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:32:17 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 02:33:05 AM »

Yes. I am positive he did not have any exposure to gluten outside of communion. I take his gluten issues seriously enough that his siblings aren't allowed to feed him unless they wash the surfaces and their hands first. I don't use the same toaster for his bread as regular bread. I am very, very careful. Believe me, I wish that his reaction wasn't attributable to communion. I don't consume *any* gluten. I know about all the hidden sources of gluten, and all the "code words" for gluten. He did not have any gluten outside of communion.

Taz was baptized at 6 weeks. He has been communed since then. He was baptized/communed about a week after being released from hospitalization for RSV. He has been ill with the effects of celiac ever since the RSV. Only recently have we realized that communion has had such an impact. It worsened after the introduction of solids. But his symptoms (i.e diaper issues) have been there since his hospitalization/baptism and before. His diaper signs so to speak have been there since birth, those worsened after baptism.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:40:28 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 02:45:40 AM »

From the NIH website, there are other medical causes for failure to thrive.  The celiac issue could be related to one or more of the following:

Quote
There are many medical causes of failure to thrive. These include:

    Chromosome problems such as Down syndrome and Turner syndrome

    Organ problems

    Thyroid hormone deficiency, growth hormone deficiency, or other hormone deficiencies

    Damage to the brain or central nervous system, which may cause feeding difficulties in an infant

    Heart or lung problems, which can affect how nutrients move through the body

    Anemia or other blood disorders

    Gastrointestinal problems that make it hard to absorbe nurtients or cause the body to have a lack of digestive enzymes

    Long-term gastroenteritis and gastroesophageal reflux (usually temporary)

    Cerebral palsy

    Long-term (chronic) infections

    Metabolic disorders

    Complications of pregnancy and low birth weight

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001986/

You're dealing with a child that has a gluten issue.  My point of view is that Holy Communion is harmless and if I stop believing in the harmlessness of Holy Communion, I don't know what will happen to my faith.  Your son has been very sick from the day he was born.  To hear that he was gaining weight until receiving communion and regressing is something that you (and I) find disconcerting.  When I made those comments in '08, I wasn't trying to be abrasive and heartless - just expressing my belief that Holy Communion was harmless.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:54:47 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 02:48:43 AM »

Do you seriously think that all the other reasons for his FTT have not been investigated? Do you think I *want* him to be Celiac? That little guy has been tested for every other possible reason for FTT. He is Celiac period. I have taken him in for countless blood tests, ultrasounds, and other various tests.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:50:36 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 02:53:38 AM »

Do you seriously think that all the other reasons for his FTT have not been investigated? Do you think I *want* him to be Celiac? That little guy has been tested for every other possible reason for FTT. He is Celiac period. I have taken him in for countless blood tests, ultrasounds, and other various tests.

I read that Cystic Fibrosis and Celiac Disease go hand in hand.  Has Cystic Fibrosis been excluded given that Taz was hospitalized for RSV.
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 02:53:59 AM »

He's been tested 3 times for CF (blood and sweat tests) he does not have CF. I have been tested for carrier status as well. I am not a CF carrier.

He has also been tested for a wheat allergy. He is not allergic to wheat. He has an autoimmune reaction. If it was an allergy, I could give him benedryl to counteract the initial reaction. Also if it was an allergy/intolerance, it wouldn't cause him to be incapable of digesting any food whatsoever. On gluten everything comes out looking like it did going in, including white rice. Off gluten everything comes out fully digested, including white rice.
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 02:56:23 AM »

Sol,

We encounter the Body and Blood as bread and wine and through that Symbol (prenominalistic sense).

Do you really believe that if you ate only at communion, your body would produce no solid waste?
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 03:02:28 AM »

Sol,

We encounter the Body and Blood as bread and wine and through that Symbol (prenominalistic sense).

The Body and Blood is encountered as bread and wine except I don't believe it's bread and wine any longer.

Do you really believe that if you ate only at communion, your body would produce no solid waste?

I don't know; I haven't tried making Communion my only meal of the day.  I like to believe that the Body and Blood are absorbed resulting in no increase in solid waste.
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 03:04:14 AM »

On gluten everything comes out looking like it did going in, including white rice. Off gluten everything comes out fully digested, including white rice.

Including communion?
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 03:05:10 AM »

I don't know; I haven't tried making Communion my only meal of the day.   I like to believe that the Body and Blood are absorbed resulting in no increase in solid waste.

Is this a personal belief, or do you have a basis for it?
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 03:06:02 AM »

On gluten everything comes out looking like it did going in, including white rice. Off gluten everything comes out fully digested, including white rice.

Including communion?

He receives wine with gluten contamination, so obviously he doesn't urinate wine. After communion everything he eats passes thru his system undigested for about a week or so based upon his last exposure. His digestive abilities start out horrible and gradually get better thru the week.
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2013, 03:07:22 AM »

On gluten everything comes out looking like it did going in, including white rice. Off gluten everything comes out fully digested, including white rice.

Including communion?

He receives wine with gluten contamination, so obviously he doesn't urinate wine.

I was referring to the bread or bread particles.  Sorry that I wasn't clear.   angel
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2013, 03:09:11 AM »

To get to the nitty gritty; he has to eliminate very soon after communion. He also screams in pain off/on for about 24 hours as well.
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2013, 03:11:09 AM »

I don't know; I haven't tried making Communion my only meal of the day.   I like to believe that the Body and Blood are absorbed resulting in no increase in solid waste.

Is this a personal belief, or do you have a basis for it?

After I receive Communion, my stomach feels light (even after I gorge at coffee hour) and I feel uplifted - so that would be a personal belief of mine.  I can't prove the non-underlined part.
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2013, 03:13:42 AM »

Other than your personal belief, is there a basis for this belief in the writings of the Fathers of the Church? (not an accusation or challenge, just curious)

It would be difficult to prove if there was an increase in bodily waste since we don't produce waste simply from what we eat. You also don't eliminate everything you consume each day. It could take quite awhile to clean out the entire system enough to know what the waste is from.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2013, 03:15:09 AM »

To get to the nitty gritty; he has to eliminate very soon after communion. He also screams in pain off/on for about 24 hours as well.

The gluten in the breastmilk doesn't bother him; yet, the gluten in everything else bothers him.  He has an autoimmune reaction with non-breastmilk gluten.  I'm curious and maybe you mentioned this already - has Taz tried Ensure or Pedialyte?   Huh
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2013, 03:15:26 AM »

The Body and Blood is encountered as bread and wine except I don't believe it's bread and wine any longer.
Okay, but if they didn't have any of the properties of bread and wine, the Gifts wouldn't look, smell, taste and feel like bread and wine, because looking, tasting, smelling and feeling like bread and wine are some of the properties of bread and wine.
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 03:19:16 AM »

To get to the nitty gritty; he has to eliminate very soon after communion. He also screams in pain off/on for about 24 hours as well.

The gluten in the breastmilk doesn't bother him; yet, the gluten in everything else bothers him.  He has an autoimmune reaction with non-breastmilk gluten.  I'm curious and maybe you mentioned this already - has Taz tried Ensure or Pedialyte?   Huh

He doesn't get gluten in breastmilk. I don't consume gluten. Ensure has ingredients he is intolerant to (soy/dairy and an intolerant reaction is not one that can be mistaken for an autoimmune response) which would cause him to lose weight rapidly even if he is GF. Pedialyte is empty calories which would also cause him to lose weight rapidly. If we were to give him formula, he can have ONE formula called Neocate. It is amino acid based. But that formula is about 1k a month. He can drink Almond Milk in addition to breast-milk, so there is no need to give him Neocate. But that has nothing to do with the discussion about communion Huh
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 03:23:07 AM »

Why are you questioning his Celiac? Do you think his medical care team and I are idiots?
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 03:27:42 AM »

Other than your personal belief, is there a basis for this belief in the writings of the Fathers of the Church? (not an accusation or challenge, just curious)

It would be difficult to prove if there was an increase in bodily waste since we don't produce waste simply from what we eat. You also don't eliminate everything you consume each day. It could take quite awhile to clean out the entire system enough to know what the waste is from.

Here's one item from a Father of the Church supporting my personal belief in Holy Communion.

Quote
Having...been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sang of old, saying, 'And bread strengthens man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil' (Ps. 104:15), 'strengthen then your heart,' by partaking thereof as spiritual, and 'make the face of your soul to shine.' And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, may you 'reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord' (II Cor. 3:18), and proceed from 'glory to glory', in Christ Jesus our Lord: - To Whom be honor, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures: Lecture 22 no. 9)

http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/holy_communion.html
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 03:29:57 AM »

The Body and Blood is encountered as bread and wine except I don't believe it's bread and wine any longer.
Okay, but if they didn't have any of the properties of bread and wine, the Gifts wouldn't look, smell, taste and feel like bread and wine, because looking, tasting, smelling and feeling like bread and wine are some of the properties of bread and wine.

The bread and wine remain in the form that can affect people?   Huh
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 03:30:20 AM »

OK, I can see that relating to you believing that it isn't bread/wine, but not that it is absorbed rather than digested.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 03:34:46 AM »

Why are you questioning his Celiac? Do you think his medical care team and I are idiots?

I don't want to think that Holy Communion can cause great harm to an infant.  NicholasofMyra is trying to convince me that bread and wine retain the characteristics of bread and wine (including gluten) and that the Holy Communion can cause harm.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 03:36:26 AM »

In terms of celiac disease the distinction between digestion and absorption is the clincher. If we do simply absorb the bread/wine bypassing the digestive tract entirely, there would be no concern. But if the gluten has to be digested, it will destroy the villi in the digestive tract of the very sensitive Celiac.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 03:41:01 AM »

Quite honestly my *hope* is that the longer Taz is GF the less serious his gluten reaction will be. So then once he is older he will be capable of having communion with a crumb of bread without any issue whatsoever. Currently the little guy has been exposed to gluten his entire life up until diagnosis. His villi never had the chance to be healthy before they were destroyed by gluten.

Why are you questioning his Celiac? Do you think his medical care team and I are idiots?

I don't want to think that Holy Communion can cause great harm to an infant.  NicholasofMyra is trying to convince me that bread and wine retain the characteristics of bread and wine (including gluten) and that the Holy Communion can cause harm.

Your hopes don't give you the ability to make medical diagnosis countering those of medical professionals. I hope my friend doesn't have cancer, I wouldn't tell them they don't have cancer because I don't like it.
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 03:51:13 AM »

OK, I can see that relating to you believing that it isn't bread/wine, but not that it is absorbed rather than digested.

The Jews digested manna in the desert.  Apparently, Holy Communion is also digested rather than absorbed.  No Holy Father talks about what happens to Holy Communion in the body; unless it's a mystery that no one has bothered to discuss.   Undecided
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 05:06:19 AM »

Sol,

Unless you are a medical professional or have personal experience of celiac disease, neither of which appears to be the case, bombarding Quinault with your interpretation of what you personally 'believe' and effectively questioning, on the basis of your opinion, both how she parents her infant son and how she reconciles the circumstances of his health and well-being with her Faith, is the absolute height of an arrogant and holier-than-though attitude.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2013, 09:13:30 AM »

Dear Quinault,

I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. 

I think you should discuss this issue with your priest.  I'm sure he will be understanding and try to help.  There should already be a small chalice that is used for communing the home-bound and hospitalized.  Maybe that could be used for your child? 

I know someone who would not receive due to the wine.  Now this person receives several times a year from the Communion that is dried and saved for the home-bound and hospitalized.
The priest could have argued that the wine in Communion couldn't hurt, but he wisely chose to unite his parishoner with the Body of Christ. 

Love, elephant



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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2013, 10:31:00 AM »

NicholasofMyra is trying to convince me that bread and wine retain the characteristics of bread and wine
Sol...

if they didn't retain any of the characteristics of bread and wine, they wouldn't look like bread and wine! What is there to be convinced of?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:31:27 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2013, 11:38:24 AM »

[statement of what is actually happening to her child]

[assertion that this can't possibly be happening because, well, I just don't believe it can, so you must be wrong.]

This seems a bit ridiculous to me.  Roll Eyes

Quinault, you do not have to convince SolEX01 or get his approval, unless he is somehow in direct authority over you. The others are right: speak about this with your priest - AND your baby's  doctor - and do what is right for your baby. You certainly do NOT need to worry about placating some guy on an Internet discussion board who has only anecdotal evidence and is NOT a part of your life.  Angry
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2013, 11:52:44 AM »

NicholasofMyra is trying to convince me that bread and wine retain the characteristics of bread and wine
Sol...

if they didn't retain any of the characteristics of bread and wine, they wouldn't look like bread and wine! What is there to be convinced of?

Or taste like it either...
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2013, 12:07:07 PM »

It's my understanding that the bread and wine do not stop being bread and wine when they become the Body and Blood. It's a "both...and..." situation; not "either...or..." Truly sacramental.
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