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Author Topic: Old Testament rules in various OO Churches  (Read 1287 times) Average Rating: 0
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vasnTearn
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« on: January 12, 2013, 06:26:04 PM »

I'm interested in Old Testament (or Judaic) rules and customs preserved in different ancient Churches. As far as I can understand, they are (or were in the past) more preserved in OO Churches, maybe because of being centred mainly in the Middle East.

I'll mention some that I myself know and am waiting for others to add more examples.
I kindly request the members of this community to not make this thread another place for dogmatic debates.

As far as I know (if I'm wrong, correct me, please), the Ethiopian Church maintains the law of circumcision and some others too, but I don't know which ones.

In the Coptic Church, deacons are not allowed to incense, and only priests are allowed to do this because it's prohibited in the Old Testament for non-priests to incense. If not all the Copts, at least their monks and nuns shun mixing different fabrics according to the Old Testament rule about this.

In my mother Church, the Armenian Church, the dietary rules of the Old Testament were preserved but since I don't know when they have simply fallen into disuse. And most of Armenians even don't know that officially or traditionally their Church follows the Old Testament food rules and it's prohibited to eat the unclean animals, meat with blood or of strangled animals. According to the Armenian Church rules, also a food into which mice or other such animals have fallen is considered defiled and uneatable.

The consecration of church buildings and vessels, icons, and also the ordination of priests and other ecclesiastical orders, including the patriarch, are done using the holy oil, as it was in the Old Testament. Moreover, in case of priests the oil is put in their palms, while in case of the patriarch it is poured on his head, just like what was done to Aaron and his sons, and what is prescribed in the Old Testament about this.

The Armenians also mourn their reposed 7 days, instead of 9 days of the Eastern Orthodox. Well, this is not an Old Testament regulation, but is a Judaic custom.

Now, I'd like you to continue with the examples. Especially I'm interested in Old Testament customs of the other Oriental sister Churches and, why not, also, of the Assyrian Church of the East, if there are people here from it.
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 10:12:07 PM »

That's interesting about the dietary rules in the Armenian Church.  I always wondered why there were no pork dishes in traditional Armenian cuisine.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 10:59:35 PM »

I'm interested in Old Testament (or Judaic) rules and customs preserved in different ancient Churches. As far as I can understand, they are (or were in the past) more preserved in OO Churches, maybe because of being centred mainly in the Middle East.

I'll mention some that I myself know and am waiting for others to add more examples.
I kindly request the members of this community to not make this thread another place for dogmatic debates.

As far as I know (if I'm wrong, correct me, please), the Ethiopian Church maintains the law of circumcision and some others too, but I don't know which ones.

In the Coptic Church, deacons are not allowed to incense, and only priests are allowed to do this because it's prohibited in the Old Testament for non-priests to incense. If not all the Copts, at least their monks and nuns shun mixing different fabrics according to the Old Testament rule about this.

In my mother Church, the Armenian Church, the dietary rules of the Old Testament were preserved but since I don't know when they have simply fallen into disuse. And most of Armenians even don't know that officially or traditionally their Church follows the Old Testament food rules and it's prohibited to eat the unclean animals, meat with blood or of strangled animals. According to the Armenian Church rules, also a food into which mice or other such animals have fallen is considered defiled and uneatable.

The consecration of church buildings and vessels, icons, and also the ordination of priests and other ecclesiastical orders, including the patriarch, are done using the holy oil, as it was in the Old Testament. Moreover, in case of priests the oil is put in their palms, while in case of the patriarch it is poured on his head, just like what was done to Aaron and his sons, and what is prescribed in the Old Testament about this.

The Armenians also mourn their reposed 7 days, instead of 9 days of the Eastern Orthodox. Well, this is not an Old Testament regulation, but is a Judaic custom.

Now, I'd like you to continue with the examples. Especially I'm interested in Old Testament customs of the other Oriental sister Churches and, why not, also, of the Assyrian Church of the East, if there are people here from it.


Interestingly, I was reading recently that the Ethiopian custom of circumcision was one which the Copts unsuccessfully attempted to suppress in the middle ages (when the Abuna was still a position assigned by the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria).
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 11:10:52 PM »

See this thread about the Ethiopians keeping the Saturday Sabbath:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26662.0.html#top
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Also menstruating women do not partake of the Eucharist, also originating in some sense from the purification laws of menstruating women in the OT not being allowed in the temple.
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 05:43:01 AM »

That's interesting about the dietary rules in the Armenian Church.  I always wondered why there were no pork dishes in traditional Armenian cuisine.


See this thread about the Ethiopians keeping the Saturday Sabbath:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26662.0.html#top

Yes, pork wasn't used in Armenia. However, in Cilicia and Mesopotamia, perhaps because of the habitation of the Armenians with Greeks and Syriac Orthodox Christians, pork was allowed, as we can see from a letter of St Nerses the Grace-filled. He criticizes there those Syriac Christians who had criticized the Armenians for keeping the dietary rules of the Old Testament, and says that those rules were not eliminated for Christians. He says the only exception is pork that the Apostles allowed to Christians. However, other Armenian Fathers whose words on this matter I have read, don't make an exclusion to this law.

Thanks, Salpy, for the thread about the Sabbath observance by the Ethiopians. Someone there, but not an Ethiopian himself, wrote that the Ethiopians too observe the dietary rules of the Old Testament. Is this true? Can anyone from our Ethiopian brothers confirm this?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:00:24 AM by vasnTearn » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 05:49:52 AM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Also menstruating women do not partake of the Eucharist, also originating in some sense from the purification laws of menstruating women in the OT not being allowed in the temple.

Thanks for your contribution, Minasoliman. As far as I can understand, this law of purification of women is kept in other Churches too, even in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I forgot to mention that the Armenians too have this rule for purification of women. But in our Church there are only 40 days for both male and female children.

Also the other rule concerning menstruating women that you have mentioned exists in the Armenian Church.
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 07:37:59 AM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Also menstruating women do not partake of the Eucharist, also originating in some sense from the purification laws of menstruating women in the OT not being allowed in the temple.

Both of these practices are still practiced in the Chanlcedonian Eastern Orthodox Churches too.
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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 09:48:41 AM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Why is there a difference in days between giving birth to a boy or girl?
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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 10:25:30 AM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Why is there a difference in days between giving birth to a boy or girl?

As far as I know, the numbers 40 and 80 refer to the days during which, according to ancient or medieval science, the male and female children are fully formed as humans in the womb.
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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 11:17:34 AM »

VasnTearn, I posted on this topic a few years ago. The thread is here.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22570.0.html

Gebre Menfes Kidus indicated that Ethiopian Orthodox abstain from pork at all times, among other things.

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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 11:49:59 AM »

VasnTearn, I posted on this topic a few years ago. The thread is here.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22570.0.html

Gebre Menfes Kidus indicated that Ethiopian Orthodox abstain from pork at all times, among other things.


Thanks, fleur-de-lys! But the thread speaks ONLY about pork. I'd like to know if also the OTHER unclean animals mentioned in the Mosaic Law are or were prohibited in the Ethiopian Church. In the Armenian Church, as I mentioned, generally all unclean animals were forbidden in the past. Well, to be frank, we don't have any new rule by Church authorities that eliminates those OT dietary rules which were zealously defended by the Armenian Church Fathers of old times. They have just been eliminated in practice and I don't know since when exactly. Today no Armenian follows those rules at all or even knows about this specific aspect of our Church.

I wonder what could be the reason of this phenomenon among my people, of giving so much importance to OT rules, if the Armenians were pagans too, like the Greeks, Syrians etc, before accepting Christianity. There were Jews in Armenia, and many in Armenian cities (if we believe the historian Buzand from the 4th-5th centuries), until 370s when the Persians destroyed the Armenian cities and took both the Armenians and Jews of those cities captive, sending them to Iran.

I was thinking lately that the fact the Armenian Church is the only one that rejected to change the old custom of celebrating the Nativity and Theophany on Jan. 6 and adopt Christmas holiday on Dec. 25 could also be connected with OT prohibition of not adopting other nations' customs, because Christmas on Dec. 25 is celebrated on a pagan holiday. And the Armenians explained that they were following the Church of Jerusalem in not changing the date of Nativity. And in other cases too, the Armenians would claim to follow the Church of Jerusalem.

I'm just thinking aloud...
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 11:57:45 AM »

I am concerned that these practices are being called laws.
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 12:07:36 PM »

I am concerned that these practices are being called laws.

Don't be concerned. Because these "practices" WERE and ARE part of the Mosaic Law but which are not "laws" for Christians any more but practices.
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 12:33:58 PM »

Churching is still practiced in the Coptic Church, which supposedly has its origins in the OT laws of purification of women after giving birth.  The law in the Coptic Church is 40 days after giving birth to a boy, 80 days after giving birth to a girl.

Why is there a difference in days between giving birth to a boy or girl?

Because that's what the law of Moses had, and it was just preserved in that manner.  Leviticus 12:

Quote
The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.

“‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

So if male, 7+33=40.  If female, 14+66=80.  As for why, perhaps according to OT understanding, the because it was Eve that lead Adam to sin, the longer female period is that you gave birth to someone who has the propensity to lead others to sin.

What this translates to into Christian practice, I don't know, and frankly, I would abolish such laws, but that's just me.
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 12:13:57 AM »

Don't the Ethiopians have the same 40/80 day waiting periods for baptizing boys and girls as the Copts do?

I am thinking this because our brother Gebre, in a remarkable act of faith, waited 80 days to baptize his sweet little angel Hosanna Maryam:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28719.msg471397.html#msg471397

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30449.msg499301.html#msg499301
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 01:20:08 AM »

Don't the Ethiopians have the same 40/80 day waiting periods for baptizing boys and girls as the Copts do?

I am thinking this because our brother Gebre, in a remarkable act of faith, waited 80 days to baptize his sweet little angel Hosanna Maryam:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28719.msg471397.html#msg471397

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30449.msg499301.html#msg499301

I read of Ethiopians having the same number of days for churching, but not sure about baptism.

Do other OO churches keep the same number of days for churcing boys and girls--specifically 80 days for girls?

EO churches have 40 days for boys and girls.
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 01:32:01 AM »

In the Armenian Church it is 40 days for both boys and girls.
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 02:42:35 AM »

Regarding dietary restrictions, I read the lives of St. Simeon Stylites some years ago and I had a vague memory that he told people not to eat camel meat.

I did a google search and found this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JwGZTQunH00C&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=stylites+%22camel+meat%22&source=bl&ots=3I5WVxMPEw&sig=XKyMhpKBMjw5tefHM5qsmWykBe8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0ejyULL3D8etigLXoIDwDw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stylites%20%22camel%20meat%22&f=false
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 12:58:24 PM »

That's interesting about the dietary rules in the Armenian Church.  I always wondered why there were no pork dishes in traditional Armenian cuisine.


See this thread about the Ethiopians keeping the Saturday Sabbath:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26662.0.html#top

Yes, pork wasn't used in Armenia. However, in Cilicia and Mesopotamia, perhaps because of the habitation of the Armenians with Greeks and Syriac Orthodox Christians, pork was allowed, as we can see from a letter of St Nerses the Grace-filled. He criticizes there those Syriac Christians who had criticized the Armenians for keeping the dietary rules of the Old Testament, and says that those rules were not eliminated for Christians. He says the only exception is pork that the Apostles allowed to Christians. However, other Armenian Fathers whose words on this matter I have read, don't make an exclusion to this law.

Thanks, Salpy, for the thread about the Sabbath observance by the Ethiopians. Someone there, but not an Ethiopian himself, wrote that the Ethiopians too observe the dietary rules of the Old Testament. Is this true? Can anyone from our Ethiopian brothers confirm this?


Selam to you  my dear vasnTearn Smiley

the dietary custom follows the OT ones, and modified to fit the Christian custom. all those things forbidden in the OT are not eaten, pork, frogs,rats,lobster, snake etc.. those that have died without being slaughtered say another animal kills them  are not eaten, when killed by hunting( it has to be directly shooting or spearing ) the blood is drained either via the wound or by slaughtering, those that are found dead by traps laid for them are not eaten. those that are slaughtered by a none Christian are not eaten.

the fasting season and the feast season cooking utensils are separate in most pious homes.

 baptism for babies under normal circumstances is in 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls.

Edit:
One more thing, in the Orthodox country sides there is still a Muslim way of dressing and a christian way of dressing, the mixed color fabric is for Muslims the Christians wear a one colored fabric with or without embroidery .
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:08:08 PM by Hiwot » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 01:15:43 PM »

That's interesting about the dietary rules in the Armenian Church.  I always wondered why there were no pork dishes in traditional Armenian cuisine.


See this thread about the Ethiopians keeping the Saturday Sabbath:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26662.0.html#top

Yes, pork wasn't used in Armenia. However, in Cilicia and Mesopotamia, perhaps because of the habitation of the Armenians with Greeks and Syriac Orthodox Christians, pork was allowed, as we can see from a letter of St Nerses the Grace-filled. He criticizes there those Syriac Christians who had criticized the Armenians for keeping the dietary rules of the Old Testament, and says that those rules were not eliminated for Christians. He says the only exception is pork that the Apostles allowed to Christians. However, other Armenian Fathers whose words on this matter I have read, don't make an exclusion to this law.

Thanks, Salpy, for the thread about the Sabbath observance by the Ethiopians. Someone there, but not an Ethiopian himself, wrote that the Ethiopians too observe the dietary rules of the Old Testament. Is this true? Can anyone from our Ethiopian brothers confirm this?


Selam to you  my dear vasnTearn Smiley

the dietary custom follows the OT ones, and modified to fit the Christian custom. all those things forbidden in the OT are not eaten, pork, frogs,rats,lobster, snake etc.. those that have died without being slaughtered say another animal kills them  are not eaten, when killed by hunting( it has to be directly shooting or spearing ) the blood is drained either via the wound or by slaughtering, those that are found dead by traps laid for them are not eaten. those that are slaughtered by a none Christian are not eaten.

the fasting season and the feast season cooking utensils are separate in most pious homes.

 baptism for babies under normal circumstances is in 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls.



Many thanks, dear Hiwot! I'm glad to know that the Ethiopian and Armenian Churches had a similar understanding about this matter. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 01:25:01 PM »

That's interesting about the dietary rules in the Armenian Church.  I always wondered why there were no pork dishes in traditional Armenian cuisine.


See this thread about the Ethiopians keeping the Saturday Sabbath:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26662.0.html#top

Yes, pork wasn't used in Armenia. However, in Cilicia and Mesopotamia, perhaps because of the habitation of the Armenians with Greeks and Syriac Orthodox Christians, pork was allowed, as we can see from a letter of St Nerses the Grace-filled. He criticizes there those Syriac Christians who had criticized the Armenians for keeping the dietary rules of the Old Testament, and says that those rules were not eliminated for Christians. He says the only exception is pork that the Apostles allowed to Christians. However, other Armenian Fathers whose words on this matter I have read, don't make an exclusion to this law.

Thanks, Salpy, for the thread about the Sabbath observance by the Ethiopians. Someone there, but not an Ethiopian himself, wrote that the Ethiopians too observe the dietary rules of the Old Testament. Is this true? Can anyone from our Ethiopian brothers confirm this?


Selam to you  my dear vasnTearn Smiley

the dietary custom follows the OT ones, and modified to fit the Christian custom. all those things forbidden in the OT are not eaten, pork, frogs,rats,lobster, snake etc.. those that have died without being slaughtered say another animal kills them  are not eaten, when killed by hunting( it has to be directly shooting or spearing ) the blood is drained either via the wound or by slaughtering, those that are found dead by traps laid for them are not eaten. those that are slaughtered by a none Christian are not eaten.

the fasting season and the feast season cooking utensils are separate in most pious homes.

 baptism for babies under normal circumstances is in 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls.



Many thanks, dear Hiwot! I'm glad to know that the Ethiopian and Armenian Churches had a similar understanding about this matter. Smiley

It is my pleasure! and Thank you as well for the information you provided here for us, its really great that we share this as well.  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:35 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 01:54:20 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam

Surely, those rules or customs are not laws. Let the usage of the word "law" here and there in this thread not confuse anyone.
You're saying that censing is not allowed to deacons also in the Ethiopian Church, as in the Coptic Church? did I understand you correctly?
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2013, 02:22:23 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam

Surely, those rules or customs are not laws. Let the usage of the word "law" here and there in this thread not confuse anyone.
You're saying that censing is not allowed to deacons also in the Ethiopian Church, as in the Coptic Church? did I understand you correctly?

Actually, I confess that I don't know. Hiwot, can you answer this?


Selam
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2013, 02:40:46 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam

Surely, those rules or customs are not laws. Let the usage of the word "law" here and there in this thread not confuse anyone.
You're saying that censing is not allowed to deacons also in the Ethiopian Church, as in the Coptic Church? did I understand you correctly?

Actually, I confess that I don't know. Hiwot, can you answer this?


Selam

deacons can not censer, they can not hold the censor at the top where the cross is, they can however use it to open the censer and put charcoal in it and swing it by the chains to ignite the coal it might have incense in it too if the priest has added the incense but they swing it only to ignite not to censer,  then hand it to the priest holding it by the chains not by the cross on the top like the priests would do.
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2013, 03:25:45 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam

Surely, those rules or customs are not laws. Let the usage of the word "law" here and there in this thread not confuse anyone.
You're saying that censing is not allowed to deacons also in the Ethiopian Church, as in the Coptic Church? did I understand you correctly?

Actually, I confess that I don't know. Hiwot, can you answer this?


Selam

deacons can not censer, they can not hold the censor at the top where the cross is, they can however use it to open the censer and put charcoal in it and swing it by the chains to ignite the coal it might have incense in it too if the priest has added the incense but they swing it only to ignite not to censer,  then hand it to the priest holding it by the chains not by the cross on the top like the priests would do.


Thank you Hiwot.



Selam
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2013, 03:28:54 PM »

One other point I will mention, and Hiwot or others can correct me if I am mistaken. But the dietary rules and circumcision custom are not to be seen as "laws." The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does not teach that we are saved by what we eat or do not eat, nor does it teach that circumcision is mandatory for salvation or for entrance into the Church. In fact, in our Divine Liturgy, it specifically says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come." But we adhere to many Judaic customs as a reminder of the roots of our faith. Each Judaic custom points to the fulfillment we now experience in Christ. But the dietary guidelines do have practical benefits for our health. As for the ecclesiatical rules about Deacons not censing, these guidelines are modeled after the pattern of worship that we find throughout the Bible. Everything has a spiritual significance and a biblical precedent, but these things are not matters of salvation like Baptism and the Eucharist. I hope I have explained it right.


Selam

Surely, those rules or customs are not laws. Let the usage of the word "law" here and there in this thread not confuse anyone.
You're saying that censing is not allowed to deacons also in the Ethiopian Church, as in the Coptic Church? did I understand you correctly?

Actually, I confess that I don't know. Hiwot, can you answer this?


Selam

deacons can not censer, they can not hold the censor at the top where the cross is, they can however use it to open the censer and put charcoal in it and swing it by the chains to ignite the coal it might have incense in it too if the priest has added the incense but they swing it only to ignite not to censer,  then hand it to the priest holding it by the chains not by the cross on the top like the priests would do.


Thank you Hiwot.



Selam

my pleasure, Gebre.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2013, 04:27:09 PM »

If I remember correctly, my priest told me that in the Syrian tradition, priests too are only allowed to offer incense. Though in our case, offering incense refers to the act of putting incense into the censer. What the deacons do is regarded simply as the distribution of the incense.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2013, 05:13:35 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 05:18:50 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes laugh
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 05:20:33 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes

Aren't they a bunch of Protestants?
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 05:22:38 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes

Aren't they a bunch of Protestants?

No, they are a bunch of Jews... Messianic Jews...
Even if they were Protestants, they would not be considered Judaizers solely because they obey the dietary laws of the Torah.  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 05:24:16 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes

Aren't they a bunch of Protestants?

No, they are a bunch of Jews... Messianic Jews...
Even if they were Protestants, they would not be considered Judaizers solely because they obey the dietary laws of the Torah.  Wink

He-he. The Apostles too were a bunch of Jews, "Messianic" Jews  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 05:28:32 PM »

This thread proves that Messianic Jews cannot be considered Judaizers.  Roll Eyes

Aren't they a bunch of Protestants?

No, they are a bunch of Jews... Messianic Jews...
Even if they were Protestants, they would not be considered Judaizers solely because they obey the dietary laws of the Torah.  Wink
yes that would be correct:)
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 06:25:40 PM »

rats . . . babies . . . Muslims . . .  Christians

Redacted to reflect what I haven't eaten in this post.

EDIT: After reading the FDA guidelines on allowable rat, baby, Muslim, and Christian parts per million in food stuffs, I've eaten everything in the post by consuming a single hot dog.

Sorry.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 06:47:35 PM »

rats . . . babies . . . Muslims . . .  Christians

Redacted to reflect what I haven't eaten in this post.

EDIT: After reading the FDA guidelines on allowable rat, baby, Muslim, and Christian parts per million in food stuffs, I've eaten everything in the post by consuming a single hot dog.

Sorry.
rats! shudder hehehe those things just scare the heck out of me. my grandpa told me one battle hardened Ethiopian guy fainted seeing folks slaughter a horse to eat it. he not only have never seen such a thing but he also loved horses. 

the first thing one deacon told me about living in america is that pepperoni is pork hehehe
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 11:33:41 PM »

rats . . . babies . . . Muslims . . .  Christians

Redacted to reflect what I haven't eaten in this post.

EDIT: After reading the FDA guidelines on allowable rat, baby, Muslim, and Christian parts per million in food stuffs, I've eaten everything in the post by consuming a single hot dog.

Sorry.

The FDA states that rats, babies, Muslims, and Christians must be fully cooked to an appropriate internal temperature to be considered safe for consumption.
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2013, 02:11:24 AM »

I read that something like this with food existed in the Armenian church back in the day at least. What about meat and milk? The Messianic and I believe Karaite interpretations is that it is ok to eat these together because the law was originally against eating food prepared like that because it was too similar to and would appear to be eating food prepared for idol worship that the pagans in the area did. Since regular (if I may use that term) Jews have a more broad interpretation of not eating a calf in it's mother's milk, what are the traditions on this?

With the cross thing, what is a censor?
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2013, 08:51:38 AM »

I read that something like this with food existed in the Armenian church back in the day at least. What about meat and milk? The Messianic and I believe Karaite interpretations is that it is ok to eat these together because the law was originally against eating food prepared like that because it was too similar to and would appear to be eating food prepared for idol worship that the pagans in the area did. Since regular (if I may use that term) Jews have a more broad interpretation of not eating a calf in it's mother's milk, what are the traditions on this?

With the cross thing, what is a censor?

Frankly speaking, I don't know about that rule concerning milk in the Armenian Church. But I can guess that if other dietary rules were kept, then most probably that one too could be kept. However, I'm not sure.

As for today, we're allowed to eat all kinds of meats and food types. Just during fasts it is not the Armenian Church's custom to use fish. I mean ANY of the fasts, not only Lent. But again, today not everyone follows the rules of our Church, so the customs depend on the place, priest and believer.

Sorry, I didn't understand your question about the "cross thing".
The censer is the "boorvar" (բուրվառ):



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« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 01:53:47 PM »

I read that something like this with food existed in the Armenian church back in the day at least. What about meat and milk? The Messianic and I believe Karaite interpretations is that it is ok to eat these together because the law was originally against eating food prepared like that because it was too similar to and would appear to be eating food prepared for idol worship that the pagans in the area did. Since regular (if I may use that term) Jews have a more broad interpretation of not eating a calf in it's mother's milk, what are the traditions on this?

With the cross thing, what is a censor?

Anastasia, except for what the Apostles commanded Acts 15 :29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. the rest of the stuff is one practiced out of Judaistic roots and culture, All is permitted if eaten with thanksgiving as scripture says, however one must care for the weak of mind and faith that whatever one does out of spiritual freedom should not be a cause of scandal and error to the young. if we keep that in mind and care for even the one soul among us when it comes to the question of whether to eat or not to eat something, the fathers advise us its best to decide in favor of abstinence, not because it is forbidden but out of charity towards our young brethren.

VasnTearn has answered well in regards to the Armenian Church. however generally speaking even in Ethiopia, no one cooks meat of the calf with milk of its mother, in the same manner they will not make a pet of the animal they know they are going to slaughter, there are certain customs that are tide with the sentiments of honor and compassion those are some among many. however, milk products such as butter, cheese and yogurt are eaten with meat.

the cross thing I was referring to is usually found on the top of the censer, it is connected to the three chains that hold the  base of the censer and the one that is attached to lid of the censer you can pull it to open the lid of the censer, anyways it is this top small cross that will sit between the fingers of the priest when he censes. I hope I have clarified a wee bit better Smiley

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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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