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Author Topic: Do you believe that sexuality is a choice?  (Read 3353 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« on: January 11, 2013, 05:58:47 PM »

If yes, at what age did you consciously choose to be attracted to the opposite gender? I personally can't say i chose to be straight. I was born that way. And it has nothing to do with religion.
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 06:07:38 PM »

As with most activities/thoughts, I think there is a largely hereditary element at the start, but that life experiences can modify you, sometimes profoundly. To give a rather harmless example, I became interested in redheads only after dating a certain girl. The experiences I had over a several-year period literally changed who I was attracted to and why.
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 06:18:16 PM »

For as long as I can remember I have be sexually attracted to anything that i could have "sex" with, I don't know weather I was born this way or chose it, and I don't know if it's even possible to tell at this point.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 06:20:15 PM »

OP, the way you phrased this question makes me want to flee and hide under my blanket while the argument ensues.

Yes, "sexuality" is a choice.  One may chose to have lots of sex, or none at all.  Some people chose a life that is full of sex, some chose to contain sexuality in the sacrament of marriage, and some chose to deny sexuality in favor of celibacy.

If you're talking about sexual orientation, than no, it's not a choice.  Heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual people might have been born the way they are.  Their environmental might have played a major role.  I never made a conscious decision about my sexual orientation, though there are those who do in order to hide their feelings or try and make them go away.
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 06:42:02 PM »

I think this thread suffers from a leakingly fluid definition of sexuality.
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 06:45:23 PM »

Loaded question.

Anyway, I didn't have a physical sense of what any kind of attraction was until puberty. That's why they call it that.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/puberty?q=puberty
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 07:07:48 PM »

I think this thread suffers from a leakingly fluid definition of sexuality.

Ok sure up the leaks for us, what shall we use for our definition?
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 07:23:08 PM »

Loaded question.

Anyway, I didn't have a physical sense of what any kind of attraction was until puberty. That's why they call it that.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/puberty?q=puberty

Which is why I find it weird that some claim to know they were homosexual as young as 5 years old. What average child is sexually mature at that age?
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 07:41:57 PM »

Depends what you mean by "choice".  As one who is born with something (ADD), does my being distracted and opting to do something else than the essential task at hand is a choice?  As a human being I have the knowledge that I should fight through that and make a conscious effort to do the right thing.  So am I choosing to do the right thing inspite of my nature?  Or am I choosing to fight my fallen nature to conform to what is normal and right?

Same with sexuality, are you choosing the sexuality itself (being gay or straight) or is the choice lying on whether you are to give in to your passions which are genetically hardwired?
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 08:19:09 PM »

I believe it is a partial choice

Part of it has to do with genetics, part from diet at infancy (I.e. bottle-fed v. Breast fed), and part from personal choice.  How much of these parts is not for me to answer.

Regardless, we have all felt like we wanted to do something like punch someone in the face or gossip, but, as Orthodox Christians, we try not to act on these desires but rather, we do what we can to reject satan, with the help of prayer and meekness.
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 09:35:02 PM »

I never chose to be attracted to women. It just happened. I don't know why anyone would believe that having same sex attraction is a choice. Would someone choose a path that would make them feel not only alienated from their religion, but also from the vast majority of society that is heterosexual? I don't think so.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 11:32:59 PM »

I love vague questions.  Ok, not really.
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2013, 12:04:51 AM »

Neither the Bible nor the ancient Near East had any vocabulary of *orientation* to describe sexuality; sexuality consisted in sexual *acts* (cf. Dictionary of Paul and His Letters: A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship article on Sexual Ethics for a discussion).

In ancient Eastern terms sexuality is a choice even if orientation is not if you have to take off your clothes together with another person to do it.

In Western academic terms we have been told behavior of all kinds is wholly determined by genetics (E. O. Wilson's Sociobiology), wholly determined by environment/conditioning (B. F. Skinner's Behaviorism, i.e. NO genetics!), totally free and determined by absolutely nothing (Jean Paul Sarte's Existentialism, from an analysis of the phenomenology of conscious existence -cf. Sartre, Being and Nothingness) [note how these three categorical oppositions are in formal contradiction in their extreme forms] and/or (variously) combinations thereof, or something else entirely depending on what academic departments one tunes out as much as what academic departments one tunes in. There is also the question of biological ambiguity in the case of outliers, e.g. phenotypic females with both ovaries and testes, phenotypic males with ovaries, various complex genotypes other than simple XY vs. xx like Klinefelter syndrome and so on, which is a subject in and of itself (to which I might return). But biological outliers aside, speaking just in terms of the "normal" genotypes/phenotypes, it's typically framed as a nature vs. nurture question as much as a cause vs. correlation question (on the latter cf. David Hume's classical critique of causality as demonstrable via empirical data alone -which is to say it's as much metaphysical as physical question/answer no matter how you slice it "scientifically," which is to say statistically, which let us be frank enough to observe only has two options from the start *methodologically*: i.e. (A) stochastic or (B) determined (there is no C or D -methodologically! Yet even here ALWAYS within a standard margin of error -inescapable in the praxis biological statistics of any kind).  Does a given neurobiologist believe, for example, that all mental behavior is causally determined *per se*? Answers and mileage will vary, but obviously if someone says all choice is an illusion he/she will not say behavior or temperament X is a choice. But then do they arrive at their scientific conclusions by a chain of causal determinations, only believing what they "must"? For this reason Sir Karl Popper concluded that determinism of this sort is tenuous as a scientific conclusion ipso facto and would be even if it was actually true.There is always a scientist of the day to say something in the area of behavior and causal determinism that is unsupportable from the perspective of the philosophy of science. It is one thing to say what one believes in this regard; it is quite another to show a particular conclusion is epistemologically inescapable; the latter is quite out of the question from the perspective of probabilism and/or the philosophy of science per se IMO That many practicing scientists due to the need for specialization in their training do not study the latter to a degree of even minimal adequacy is immaterial.

I would say if you're a Christian the wise course is keep your pants/dress/whatever on and your body out of another naked person's bed unless you're married in the traditional manner as the historically/spiritually more recommended course and leave questions of "necessity" of "orientation" to the philosophers and scientists who seem to lack the tools to make epistemologically *certain* (i.e. verificationalist ala classical foundationalism) pronouncements apart from something like a propensity interpolation of probabilistic induction in the first place and simply deal with your own temptations -sexual or otherwise!- under the guidance of your priest, spiritual father or mother etc. and with prayer as best as with God's help you can.
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2013, 12:41:54 AM »

The cultural climate helps to determine what the person is willing to explore. All the late inundation of sexy cool gay sex has made many men wonder a time or two if they might not enjoy a nice gentleman for a night. Once the behavior becomes normalized and a legitimate option in the culture, then the numbers will rise.

If we raise children with an equal-opportunity ethic regarding their sexuality, then every reference to love and marriage to them will be carefully worded as the gender neutered modern verbiage is. A "fireperson" instead of fireman or "personhole" instead of a manhole will creep into romantic imaginings with the children. "Whenever you meet the right guy or girl that is meant for you", "whenever you have your first boyfriend or girlfriend", etc. As the kids are developing sexually they will explore the possibility that they might be attracted to either one. Most of us never experienced anything like that. I think it's naive to ignore the correlation between attraction and the normalization of said attraction.

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 12:50:02 AM »

By your reasoning then, Alveus, there must have been no homosexual attraction at all when and where homosexuality was socially ostracized.
Or, otherwise you are merely saying-mutatis mutantis- something rather banal like this: "There weren't many living  openly as  Christians before Christianity became a licit religion."
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 12:50:29 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 03:00:21 AM »

Sex is a choice, so I guess in the end, whether or not sexuality is a choice is meaningless.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 04:01:32 AM »

Sexuality is like  a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 04:30:27 AM »

Sorta-kinda. Sexuality is VERY fluidic--contrary to what people on both sides of the spectrum say. I do not know if people necessarily "choose" who or what they are sexually attracted too--I think that a variety of factors determine that including prenatal development, hormones and early psychology--but as to whether we act upon it or not, that is a choice. Then again, I openly admit that my extreme sexual perversion and carnal desires are precisely rooted in certain decisions I have made. Maybe if I hadn't looked at so much porn or masturbated so much then I wouldn't have become so engulfed in passion. So in a sense, maybe choice is involved.
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 11:30:55 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 11:54:53 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

Expand on careful and harm, if you could, in what you just said?
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

Expand on careful and harm, if you could, in what you just said?


Careful: Monogamous relationship and use of condoms just in case.
Harm: diseases, emotional and psychological scars.









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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 02:10:33 PM »

By your reasoning then, Alveus, there must have been no homosexual attraction at all when and where homosexuality was socially ostracized.

No, I don't think that follows. While some certainly have more of a personal proclivity or impulse toward homosexuality, the more society supports and even fosters it the more it will increase. Kind of like Christianity. When it became sexy cool in the public eye and there was no risk of death associated, the numbers skyrocketed.

you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

They are comparable because they both violate Christian sexual morality, and are both still contentious social issues. I see the main difference usually being rape and consent involving children vs. adult homosexual relationships.

You train a child to consent the same way you train an adult to: social pressure.

Careful: Monogamous relationship and use of condoms just in case.

At this point, why the hell is monogamy even a factor? What makes any sexual relationship "ennobled" by its monogamy after you abandon the Christian standard? There's nothing left to appeal to other than preference.
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 02:29:33 PM »

alevus, is that what consent is? a mere societal training of its sociocultural mores?
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 03:14:22 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

The comparison between homosexuality and paedophilia is not one of what one does with the 'orientation', but simply the question of whether the 'orientation' itself is simply in the person, a fact of their 'being' as that word is tossed about now.  Irrespective of whether the attraction to same-sex adults or to children (or specifically to teenagers, ephebophilia or just preteens, hebephilia - I don't have them, looked on Wikipedia to clarify) is acted on, and irrespective of the question of "consent"... only asking here to clarify the perspective of the presumably adult individual suffering the affliction, especially in a case where initially, the attraction would not be desired by a 'normal' or 'respectable' person.  Lots of loaded terms here, sorry, but you get the point of it?

I think the question of 'sexual orientation' only of the person having the supposed attraction (since I don't really know whether paedo-, ephebo-, or hebephiles experience sexual attraction in the same ways as a homo- or heterosexual) is one of the better defences against the otherwise inevitable normalization of homosexuality - at least from the standpoint of the Christian church(es).  If you can categorically say that a person suffering attraction to minors must never act on it, must absolutely never try to construe 'consent' from a minor for sexual or other romantic acts - then, to my mind, Christianity can certainly and in good conscience maintain the teaching that homosexuality, more specifically any and all same-sex sexual acts, is intrinsically wrong.

Edit to add:
Seeing if I can wrap up with a reference back to tweety's quote - harm would be to the person having and then acting on the attraction in both cases, spiritually if not 'wordly' (as from consequences in secular law, like a pedophile sent to prison.)
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2013, 03:50:16 PM »

alevus, is that what consent is? a mere societal training of its sociocultural mores?

I'm not being so reductionistic. It's just the component that I'm focusing on because it's the one that's changing.

Everyone seems to be reducing the components that I'm focusing on to some kind of sole-cause or only option. I never said that.
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2013, 03:52:39 PM »

Quote from: Alveus Lacuna

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.

C'mon now, really.

Really?

 Huh

Do you just not know any gay people at all?
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2013, 04:08:30 PM »

alevus, is that what consent is? a mere societal training of its sociocultural mores?

I'm not being so reductionistic. It's just the component that I'm focusing on because it's the one that's changing.

Everyone seems to be reducing the components that I'm focusing on to some kind of sole-cause or only option. I never said that.

forgive me, meant no offense just inquiring over what your statement meant regarding the concept of 'consent' anyways, no further question. got to go and do some chores I've been postponing, good day to you Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2013, 04:23:56 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

Harms no one? No. It harms the people who engage in it.
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2013, 06:58:55 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

Harms no one? No. It harms the people who engage in it.

how exactly?
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2013, 07:14:33 PM »

Quote from: Alveus Lacuna

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.

C'mon now, really.

Really?

 Huh

Do you just not know any gay people at all?

I work with two gay people. Reach for an actual response; you just might find one inside.
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2013, 07:52:28 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.

I'm not sure an attraction to animals should be classified as an orientation for a variety of reasons, but not having studied the topic at any given length I shouldn't say more. Regarding a sexual attraction to children, I certainly believe it can be an orientation.  To say otherwise has more to do with politics than anything else.  I won't go into the arguments why, I'm sure they're readily available on the internet.  That said, I hate the way we currently discuss human sexuality in general.  I think Western society, including the academic disciplines, approach the whole issue in the wrong way.  I'd write a book about it if I had a better handle on the English language. 
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2013, 08:54:27 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2013, 11:05:19 PM »

It doesn't really matter either way.
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2013, 11:15:35 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 
You can also say religion is the opiate of the masses, but it sure doesn't have to be that way Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2013, 02:43:38 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 
You can also say religion is the opiate of the masses, but it sure doesn't have to be that way Roll Eyes
I can say a lot of this which are not relevant to the discussion, but I prefer to stay on topic.  Would you please do the same?  Thanks!
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2013, 03:07:42 AM »

If yes, at what age did you consciously choose to be attracted to the opposite gender? I personally can't say i chose to be straight. I was born that way. And it has nothing to do with religion.

No, your orientation is not a choice. 
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2013, 03:12:08 AM »

The cultural climate helps to determine what the person is willing to explore. All the late inundation of sexy cool gay sex has made many men wonder a time or two if they might not enjoy a nice gentleman for a night. Once the behavior becomes normalized and a legitimate option in the culture, then the numbers will rise.

If we raise children with an equal-opportunity ethic regarding their sexuality, then every reference to love and marriage to them will be carefully worded as the gender neutered modern verbiage is. A "fireperson" instead of fireman or "personhole" instead of a manhole will creep into romantic imaginings with the children. "Whenever you meet the right guy or girl that is meant for you", "whenever you have your first boyfriend or girlfriend", etc. As the kids are developing sexually they will explore the possibility that they might be attracted to either one. Most of us never experienced anything like that. I think it's naive to ignore the correlation between attraction and the normalization of said attraction.

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.

No sexual attraction to children or animals would not constitute a legitimate orientation, although I have seen some people try to argue it that way.  But these are also the people who try to tell us that there's a "gene" that causes us to cheat on our spouse.

I guess you don't hear a thoughtful response, because many see it as not being a very serious question -- even to the point of being offensive.  Beastiality and paedophilia is against the law in most states, and it's understandable as to why.  Children and animals are not capable of consent, nor do they have the intellect or reason to understand those sorts of things.
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2013, 03:16:17 AM »

By your reasoning then, Alveus, there must have been no homosexual attraction at all when and where homosexuality was socially ostracized.

No, I don't think that follows. While some certainly have more of a personal proclivity or impulse toward homosexuality, the more society supports and even fosters it the more it will increase. Kind of like Christianity. When it became sexy cool in the public eye and there was no risk of death associated, the numbers skyrocketed.

you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.

They are comparable because they both violate Christian sexual morality, and are both still contentious social issues. I see the main difference usually being rape and consent involving children vs. adult homosexual relationships.

You train a child to consent the same way you train an adult to: social pressure.

Careful: Monogamous relationship and use of condoms just in case.

At this point, why the hell is monogamy even a factor? What makes any sexual relationship "ennobled" by its monogamy after you abandon the Christian standard? There's nothing left to appeal to other than preference.

I agree that with the acceptance of homosexuality being normal, more people will want to "experiment" to see if they also are inclined in that way.  However I do NOT think that merely because you experiment for a certain amount of time, that it will make you "gay".  I have seen no evidence for me to be inclined to believe that..

"You train a child to consent the same way you train an adult to: social pressure" 

False analogy which leads to your next comment -- "What makes any sexual relationship ennobled by its monogamy after you abandon the Christian standard" 

People have had morality before the Christian Church ever came about.  There have been plenty of people who have never even heard of the Judeo-Christian god, and have led very decent lives.  The great majority of cultures and world religions teach a standard of morality, that doesn't necessarily include Christianity... 

Also morality can be reasoned into by using logic, without religion.  This is why even atheists can be very moral people and still not believe in "Christianity", etc..
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2013, 03:17:47 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 

How can homosexuality be harmful to other people?  Explain more, please...
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2013, 05:29:00 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people.  
You can also say religion is the opiate of the masses, but it sure doesn't have to be that way Roll Eyes
I can say a lot of this which are is not relevant to the discussion, but I prefer to stay on topic.  Would you please do the same?  Thanks!

Whenever I post from my phone and I come back to look at that post later, it always has something wrong.  Maybe it's because I am in a hurry. Embarrassed
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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2013, 05:36:50 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 

How can homosexuality be harmful to other people?  Explain more, please...

Anything sinful is always harmful.

Any sexual deviant behavior consistently brings with it all the medical problems associated with that behavior.

Anything not natural also brings problems.  Just because someone says it is natural does not mean it is natural.  It just means that person believes it should be natural.

I could go into a long, long, long list of harmful things associated with homosexuality, or more specifically, deviant sexual behavior in general.  The problem is, few people want to look at that directly and most attempt to side track and associate those problems with a laundry list of other activities, thinking it somehow nullifies the problems which come with homosexuality...so I don’t bother wasting my time anymore.  I also don’t engage is circular (i.e., ridiculous) arguments if I can help myself.
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2013, 05:39:29 AM »

Quote
Also morality can be reasoned into by using logic, without religion God.
This is the old fable anyway; however, it is terribly wrong.  There is no true decency or goodness (morality) without God.
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2013, 05:44:34 AM »

People have had morality before the Christian Church ever came about. 
Very true, they were called Gods Chosen People.  Of course we know the Christian Church didn’t begin until Christ arrived, so the people of God absolutely had morals prior to Christianity.

There have been plenty of people who have never even heard of the Judeo-Christian god, and have led very decent lives. 

By whose standards?  Certainly not Gods.  The world perhaps, which is where the problem really rests.

The great majority of cultures and world religions teach a standard of morality, that doesn't necessarily include Christianity... 

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 11:17:43 AM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 

How can homosexuality be harmful to other people?  Explain more, please...

Anything sinful is always harmful.

Any sexual deviant behavior consistently brings with it all the medical problems associated with that behavior.

Anything not natural also brings problems.  Just because someone says it is natural does not mean it is natural.  It just means that person believes it should be natural.

I could go into a long, long, long list of harmful things associated with homosexuality, or more specifically, deviant sexual behavior in general.  The problem is, few people want to look at that directly and most attempt to side track and associate those problems with a laundry list of other activities, thinking it somehow nullifies the problems which come with homosexuality...so I don’t bother wasting my time anymore.  I also don’t engage is circular (i.e., ridiculous) arguments if I can help myself.

Ah by "sexual behavior" you are differentiating between homosexuality, and certain homosexual acts aren't you?   The same arguments could be made for heterosexual sex, could they not?  It is harmful and dangerous to have sex with just anyone regardless of gender...   Your version of "sinfulness" is solely based off of Christianity, BTW.  You are entitled to those beliefs, just do not expect everyone to agree with that.   Also many have a hard time telling the difference between who they are and what they're attracted to, so they might feel you were calling them "deviants" because of their inclinations. 
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2013, 11:22:08 AM »

People have had morality before the Christian Church ever came about. 
Very true, they were called Gods Chosen People.  Of course we know the Christian Church didn’t begin until Christ arrived, so the people of God absolutely had morals prior to Christianity.

There have been plenty of people who have never even heard of the Judeo-Christian god, and have led very decent lives. 

By whose standards?  Certainly not Gods.  The world perhaps, which is where the problem really rests.

The great majority of cultures and world religions teach a standard of morality, that doesn't necessarily include Christianity... 

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.


God's chosen people? No, not just the Jews.  The Hindus, Buddhists, and Zoroastrians of the East have also always had in mind the concept of "good deeds, good thoughts, good words".  It is implanted in most people to realize when something is harmful, and causes suffering.  Hence the Buddhist preaching against cravings...  and therefore if it causes suffering, it's not moral.

LOL@missing out on the splenders of God in the afterlife.  Yes that's always been a pleasant discussion... "Believe in me, and follow my religion or end up in eternal suffering."  I have never believed if there is a god, that just because they're not Christians or more specifically Orthodox Christians -- that they're going to a place where they can suffer, and feel nothing but pain.  But that's for another thread.

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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2013, 11:33:14 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2013, 05:57:34 PM »

Just out of curiosity, would a sexual attraction to children or animals constitute a legitimate "orientation"? I know it's a tired argument, but I have yet to hear a thoughtful response.
Is it natural or choice? Wink

That is something that I take issue with regarding many people's arguments in favor of accepting homosexuality as moral behavior. Most such people, with few exceptions, would not likewise apply the same arguments to other "sexual orientations."

E.g.:

"Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"

"Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occurring in human beings, which they have no control over. After all, if it were a choice, why would they choose to be ostracized by society?"


you can't really compare Homosexuality and paedophilia. Homesexuality if you are careful harms none. Paedophilia harms children. Not comparable.
Why can't they be comparable.  The same defense can be made for both.  You want to distinguish the difference in a legal sense, otherwise one can say homosexuality is harmful to other people. 

How can homosexuality be harmful to other people?  Explain more, please...

Anything sinful is always harmful.

Any sexual deviant behavior consistently brings with it all the medical problems associated with that behavior.

Anything not natural also brings problems.  Just because someone says it is natural does not mean it is natural.  It just means that person believes it should be natural.

I could go into a long, long, long list of harmful things associated with homosexuality, or more specifically, deviant sexual behavior in general.  The problem is, few people want to look at that directly and most attempt to side track and associate those problems with a laundry list of other activities, thinking it somehow nullifies the problems which come with homosexuality...so I don’t bother wasting my time anymore.  I also don’t engage is circular (i.e., ridiculous) arguments if I can help myself.

Ah by "sexual behavior" you are differentiating between homosexuality, and certain homosexual acts aren't you?   The same arguments could be made for heterosexual sex, could they not?  It is harmful and dangerous to have sex with just anyone regardless of gender...   Your version of "sinfulness" is solely based off of Christianity, BTW.  You are entitled to those beliefs, just do not expect everyone to agree with that.   Also many have a hard time telling the difference between who they are and what they're attracted to, so they might feel you were calling them "deviants" because of their inclinations. 
Yes, there is a difference between attraction and action.  I'm attracted to an embarrassing number of women; however, that's all I allow it to be, an attraction...nothing more.

 Yes, Christian belief in origin.  Does any other matter?  Either it's right or it's wrong and if it is right, all others are wrong, so this is an useless point, in truth.  It makes no difference what someone believes if its wrong.

If a deviant (sexual or otherwise) is a deviant, it's due to their actions, not what they would like to do.  Everyone has something they would like to do, but we control ourselves.  If a person can't control their self, they should not complain about the proper usage of a title when applies to them.  Speaking of which, "orientation" is improperly used when applied to a sexual desire.
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2013, 06:42:25 PM »

We do not choose our temptations.  We can only choose our response to them.  A homosexual orientation is not a choice.  A homosexual lifestyle is.
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2013, 07:00:51 PM »

Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

I highly disagree with this. While maybe people who are consciously aware of the existence of the Orthodox Church and God might be missing out on the spledors of God in the afterlife and have to worry--since they are consciously rejecting the Truth--but even that is debatable because there are several factors that could be responsible for their rejection--ie, maybe they had a bad experience with Churches in the past (like they were molested by clergy or something as a child) and thus they don't like Churches--but either way, that judgment is up to God because He is the only one who knows the condition of these people and all of the events in their life that need to be taken into consideration. And I'm sure that He works with them in His own way to come into their lives given their condition--whether or not they accept it, that's a different matter and God will judge them by it appropriately.

But as for those who have never heard of the Church, I think that the same thing applies--even to a greater extent. I think instead of blaming them and worrying about their judgment, we should be more worried about our own judgment and guilt. We are the stewards of God's Truth and God entrusted us with the duty to spread it to people who don't know it. If many people in the world aren't aware of it, then that's our fault for not spreading it and we'll be the ones judged for it. As for them, God will judge them based on His own personal standard for them based upon the little bit of Truth that they did know--resulting from God working with them in His own unique way. I don't think that God just abandons people to be untreated just because we haven't spread the message to them properly. I would think that He is working with them to some extent, and their judgment will depend upon how they reacted to whatever way God worked with them. And that being said, I think that basic morality like respecting others and caring for one another might be one of the standards that God is going to judge them by, since morality is indeed at least some reflection of God's Truth--even if it is small.
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2013, 07:26:17 PM »

Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

I highly disagree with this. While maybe people who are consciously aware of the existence of the Orthodox Church and God might be missing out on the spledors of God in the afterlife and have to worry--since they are consciously rejecting the Truth--but even that is debatable because there are several factors that could be responsible for their rejection--ie, maybe they had a bad experience with Churches in the past (like they were molested by clergy or something as a child) and thus they don't like Churches--but either way, that judgment is up to God because He is the only one who knows the condition of these people and all of the events in their life that need to be taken into consideration. And I'm sure that He works with them in His own way to come into their lives given their condition--whether or not they accept it, that's a different matter and God will judge them by it appropriately.

But as for those who have never heard of the Church, I think that the same thing applies--even to a greater extent. I think instead of blaming them and worrying about their judgment, we should be more worried about our own judgment and guilt. We are the stewards of God's Truth and God entrusted us with the duty to spread it to people who don't know it. If many people in the world aren't aware of it, then that's our fault for not spreading it and we'll be the ones judged for it. As for them, God will judge them based on His own personal standard for them based upon the little bit of Truth that they did know--resulting from God working with them in His own unique way. I don't think that God just abandons people to be untreated just because we haven't spread the message to them properly. I would think that He is working with them to some extent, and their judgment will depend upon how they reacted to whatever way God worked with them. And that being said, I think that basic morality like respecting others and caring for one another might be one of the standards that God is going to judge them by, since morality is indeed at least some reflection of God's Truth--even if it is small.
Very few people alive today have not heard of Jesus in some fashion.
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2013, 07:40:50 PM »

Very few people alive today have not heard of Jesus in some fashion.

Tell that to North Korea, large portions of India and South America, large sections of the Middle East where Christianity has been eradicated, certain tribes in Africa, the Pacific Islands...
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »

large sections of the Middle East where Christianity has been eradicated
Muslims have heard of Jesus...
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2013, 08:18:27 PM »

Children and animals are not capable of consent, nor do they have the intellect or reason to understand those sorts of things.

So consent is the standard? Then what of consensual incest among adults or consensual homicide?

You can speak of currently existing laws, but since laws are changeable (as with the recently stricken sodomy laws), one obviously cannot appeal to current law as a means unto itself or as being sacrosanct.
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2013, 08:19:37 PM »

People have had morality before the Christian Church ever came about. 
Very true, they were called Gods Chosen People.  Of course we know the Christian Church didn’t begin until Christ arrived, so the people of God absolutely had morals prior to Christianity.

There have been plenty of people who have never even heard of the Judeo-Christian god, and have led very decent lives. 

By whose standards?  Certainly not Gods.  The world perhaps, which is where the problem really rests.

The great majority of cultures and world religions teach a standard of morality, that doesn't necessarily include Christianity... 

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.


God's chosen people? No, not just the Jews.  The Hindus, Buddhists, and Zoroastrians of the East have also always had in mind the concept of "good deeds, good thoughts, good words".  It is implanted in most people to realize when something is harmful, and causes suffering.  Hence the Buddhist preaching against cravings...  and therefore if it causes suffering, it's not moral.

LOL@missing out on the splenders of God in the afterlife.  Yes that's always been a pleasant discussion... "Believe in me, and follow my religion or end up in eternal suffering."  I have never believed if there is a god, that just because they're not Christians or more specifically Orthodox Christians -- that they're going to a place where they can suffer, and feel nothing but pain.  But that's for another thread.



off topic:
yes it is for another thread. Please let me know when you  make that thread. via pm with the link. I would like to read your thoughts.

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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2013, 08:22:16 PM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?

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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2013, 08:26:20 PM »

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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2013, 08:33:49 PM »

JamesR is the only poster who has come close to the correct answer.
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2013, 10:20:23 PM »

large sections of the Middle East where Christianity has been eradicated
Muslims have heard of Jesus...

Not in the Christian context though in certain radical regions of the Middle East
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« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2013, 10:54:48 PM »

We do not choose our temptations.  We can only choose our response to them.  A homosexual orientation is not a choice.  A homosexual lifestyle is.

Behold the answer!

Yet I think the thread has strangely moved on to a completely different topci. Nothing like that has ever happened on this forum before.
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« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2013, 11:36:55 PM »

We do not choose our temptations.  We can only choose our response to them.  A homosexual orientation is not a choice.  A homosexual lifestyle is.

Behold the answer!

Yet I think the thread has strangely moved on to a completely different topci. Nothing like that has ever happened on this forum before.
Grin

Yes, he pretty much hit the nail on the head.  So, like I said before, one can choose how they respond and act, so the first part really isn't a point at all, rather a distraction and attempt to justify poor choices.
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« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2013, 12:52:11 AM »

We do not choose our temptations.  We can only choose our response to them.  A homosexual orientation is not a choice.  A homosexual lifestyle is.

Behold the answer!

Yet I think the thread has strangely moved on to a completely different topci. Nothing like that has ever happened on this forum before.
Grin

Yes, he pretty much hit the nail on the head.  So, like I said before, one can choose how they respond and act, so the first part really isn't a point at all, rather a distraction and attempt to justify poor choices.

First part of what?
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« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2013, 12:59:54 AM »

Children and animals are not capable of consent, nor do they have the intellect or reason to understand those sorts of things.

So consent is the standard? Then what of consensual incest among adults or consensual homicide?

You can speak of currently existing laws, but since laws are changeable (as with the recently stricken sodomy laws), one obviously cannot appeal to current law as a means unto itself or as being sacrosanct.
Well it's quite easy. Consensual incest should be legal and it's actually legal in many places; consensual homocide because of the irrevocable ultimate harm done to one of the parties shouldn't be totally outside of the scope of the law. Its rare anyway and iirc in more known cases the laws were applied with more leniency there when there was proof of consensus.
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« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2013, 01:09:36 AM »

If yes, at what age did you consciously choose to be attracted to the opposite gender? I personally can't say i chose to be straight. I was born that way. And it has nothing to do with religion.

I believe that one can choose their sexuality, but I also believe one can be born with a tendency towards a certain sexuality.

However, being born homosexual, bisexual or asexual doesn't mean that it is a natural and God-given state, it is in fact, the very opposite. It's a result of our fallen state. One isn't sinful just by being attracted to the opposite sex, but the actions and thoughts that are entertained can be and are.
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« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2013, 09:04:35 AM »

We do not choose our temptations.  We can only choose our response to them.  A homosexual orientation is not a choice.  A homosexual lifestyle is.

Behold the answer!

Yet I think the thread has strangely moved on to a completely different topci. Nothing like that has ever happened on this forum before.
Grin

Yes, he pretty much hit the nail on the head.  So, like I said before, one can choose how they respond and act, so the first part really isn't a point at all, rather a distraction and attempt to justify poor choices.

First part of what?

Our temptations being a choice.

Our response to them is what is important.  I feel people focus on the wrong half of the coin.  It really doesn’t matter if it is a choice; in this case its sexuality, rather what we do in response to that temptation.  Choice, result of social environment, natural occurrence, what we want it to be, it doesn’t make any difference.  What we do with that is what makes the difference.

Too many people use the temptation (choice or not) as a crutch, an excuse for what they do instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. 
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« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2013, 09:10:25 AM »

Tell that to North Korea,
Missionaries

Tell that to … large portions of India and South America
Missionaries and Christians are there

Tell that to…large sections of the Middle East where Christianity has been eradicated,
Christians are there all over the place


Tell that to … certain tribes in Africa, the Pacific Islands...
Missionaries and Christians are there all over the place

James, this isn’t the 1700’s.  Has every ear on the planet heard the message?  No, most have, thus my saying very few people have not.  If the soul yearns for the truth, do you not believe God will provide a way?
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« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2013, 09:11:27 AM »


I believe you made a mistake on your quotation.
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« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2013, 09:16:24 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.
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« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2013, 10:37:28 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2013, 11:01:55 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is a meaningless argument because there is no such thing as "good people".  Christ tells us this Himself. 
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« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2013, 11:04:15 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is a meaningless argument because there is no such thing as "good people".  Christ tells us this Himself.  

Okay. People who do good to others, then.
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« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2013, 11:24:35 AM »

Quote
Not in the Christian context though in certain radical regions of the Middle East
Islam knows exactly how Christianity views Jesus. Muslims have always known how Christians view Jesus. So much so that the issue of "the Son of God" was addressed in the Koran directly (somewhere in 18 I believe). Also, read some of the early texts on the subject from either point of view. It becomes very obvious that Mohammed and his direct followers knew precisely and rejected it for one reason or another.

Wasn't Mohammed's uncle a monk at one point?

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« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2013, 05:38:48 PM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is a meaningless argument because there is no such thing as "good people".  Christ tells us this Himself.  

Okay. People who do good to others, then.


I believe (and I may be wrong) that there is "doing good" and "doing good unto Salvation".  Faith is the primary requirement for Salvation.  Faith will spawn good works, and these works will help us toward Salvation.  However, without Faith, Salvation is not possible, so good works done without Faith are to no avail.  It is not that God does not see them, but He cannot act on those that do not accept Him.  However, that does NOT mean that He will not bless them in this life.
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« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2013, 05:47:47 PM »

This thread has made me realize, I sincerely disagree with a lot of you.  

I cannot believe that morality is derived from Christianity, and that if the Church is true -- then all others are false.  I cannot believe sexuality is a choice, and there were a few other points that I highly disagree with.  All of this black and white reasoning is beyond me, and goes against a lot of what I have believed to be true in my core..

Oh well it's been a fun chat, at least I know what I don't believe.  Trying to argue it is meaningless
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« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2013, 05:52:11 PM »

This thread has made me realize, I sincerely disagree with a lot of you. 

I cannot believe that morality is derived from Christianity, and that if the Church is true -- then all others are false.  I cannot believe sexuality is a choice, and there were a few other points that I highly disagree with.  All of this black and white reasoning is beyond me, and goes against a lot of what I have known in my core..

Oh well it's been a fun chat, at least I know what I don't believe.  Trying to argue it is meaningless

Too bad Ionnis can't write that book. No irony.

Don't worry Andrew you're right in knowing most of the people above are wrong (I only read Ionnis' post I think and this one, I stalk the guy.)

Knowing others are almost always wrong is the beginning of wisdom.
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« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2013, 05:59:29 PM »

This thread has made me realize, I sincerely disagree with a lot of you. 

I cannot believe that morality is derived from Christianity, and that if the Church is true -- then all others are false.  I cannot believe sexuality is a choice, and there were a few other points that I highly disagree with.  All of this black and white reasoning is beyond me, and goes against a lot of what I have known in my core..

Oh well it's been a fun chat, at least I know what I don't believe.  Trying to argue it is meaningless

Too bad Ionnis can't write that book. No irony.

Don't worry Andrew you're right in knowing most of the people above are wrong (I only read Ionnis' post I think and this one, I stalk the guy.)

Knowing others are almost always wrong is the beginning of wisdom.

^^LOL  laugh laugh
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« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2013, 06:07:28 PM »

This thread has made me realize, I sincerely disagree with a lot of you. 

I cannot believe that morality is derived from Christianity, and that if the Church is true -- then all others are false.  I cannot believe sexuality is a choice, and there were a few other points that I highly disagree with.  All of this black and white reasoning is beyond me, and goes against a lot of what I have known in my core..

Oh well it's been a fun chat, at least I know what I don't believe.  Trying to argue it is meaningless

Arguing on the Internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics.  The rest is politically incorrect.  In any case, most of us "believe".  Those that say they "know" anything are fools.
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« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2013, 06:10:09 PM »

Good point, fixed that..
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« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2013, 06:15:18 PM »

Good point, fixed that..

Believing is a mode of being more obsessive and blind and violent than knowing.

And unfortunately, most people know a lot and believe little.
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« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2013, 06:26:56 PM »

Good point, fixed that..

Believing is a mode of being more obsessive and blind and violent than knowing.

And unfortunately, most people know a lot and believe little.

Unfortunately, you are wrong.  Belief is simply passing inputs through a filter and drawing conclusions.  Knowledge involves certainty, and there is little that is certain.  Death is probably one of the few things that is certain, and even then not everyone is dead that appears that way.  If someone believes something, they can change that belief based on new inputs.  Someone who thinks they know is usually locked in that belief, regardless of inputs to the contrary.
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« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »

Good point, fixed that..

Believing is a mode of being more obsessive and blind and violent than knowing.

And unfortunately, most people know a lot and believe little.

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

Wanna bet? And do you believe, think, or know the above?
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« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2013, 08:06:22 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is not a yes.  It is an acceptance of what we know to be true.  There is but one path to God and that is not through some great effort on our behalf.  What does being a nice person really mean?  How is this going to help any more than not being a nice person or randomly being a nice person, or even being a mean person?  This is all subjective to what you or I think a nice person is or what a nice person should be doing.  These are our earthly standards, which have little or nothing to do with God.  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
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« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2013, 12:14:55 PM »

Wanna bet? And do you believe, think, or know the above?

Well, I try not to think because the heat put off by my enormous brain power tends to overheat those around me (surely you understand, based on most of what you write).  Now, as to the other two, I believe that you are wrong.  I do not KNOW that you are wrong because I always leave open the possibility that I could be wrong.  It does happen on occasion.  As to the present matter, I believe the way I do because you have not provided me with enough contrary data to change that belief.  But I am sure that if you really put your mind to it (and did not burn up all those around you), you could make a more convincing attempt at it.  You see, I do not mind being proven wrong since that is one of the many ways to learn.  And to top it off, the other guy does all the work.
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« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2013, 01:05:01 PM »


  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"


you are very right. But "Nice" is a whole lot better than pure wickedness and cruelty. Wicked and cruel people aren't nice at all. Therefore, who is closer to God?
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« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2013, 01:54:14 PM »

But I am sure that if you really put your mind to it (and did not burn up all those around you), you could make a more convincing attempt at it.  You see, I do not mind being proven wrong since that is one of the many ways to learn.  And to top it off, the other guy does all the work.

I already have alluded to this problem previously in more than a few posts around here. A German speaker would certainly understand the meaning of belief and think outside the cheap manner in which we use it today. And a student of the German language would understand know in the same manner, as it was part and parcel of Germanic languages before disappearing I think in all of them except English. Or if you have Greek of some sort (and I don't think you are allowed to be Orthodox otherwise) then you should have know all wrapped up.

In short, you already understand what I have to say.

How could it ever be otherwise? How can anyone ever learn anything that they didn't already understand?

No one learns anything new. This means no one has to work, especially "teachers".

I doubt you care based on your post, but when I return to real life (use the internet 20 hours a day), I might do more to help you remember.
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« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2013, 03:10:25 PM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is not a yes.  It is an acceptance of what we know to be true.  There is but one path to God and that is not through some great effort on our behalf.  What does being a nice person really mean?  How is this going to help any more than not being a nice person or randomly being a nice person, or even being a mean person?  This is all subjective to what you or I think a nice person is or what a nice person should be doing.  These are our earthly standards, which have little or nothing to do with God.  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Spoken like a true Southern Baptist.
Lest you think I persecute you without cause, in my experience I only heard this sort of phrases from the  more theologically aware baptist-types; the orthodox just don't talk like that and do not frame the thing like that. There is no Orthodox aversion and scorn to the concept of "being good/nice"  whatever that is, at least never came across with something like that.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:17:48 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2013, 03:24:44 PM »

Spoken like a true Southern Baptist.
Lest you think I persecute you without cause, in my experience I only heard this sort of phrases from the  more theologically aware baptist-types; the orthodox just don't talk like that and do not frame the thing like that. There is no Orthodox aversion and scorn to the concept of "being good/nice"  whatever that is, at least never came across with something like that.
It seems like the Orthodox position to me.
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« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2013, 04:25:42 PM »

Having spoken German through my childhood, I am well aware of how glauben, denken, and wissen were used in conversation.  Pretty much exactly the way I use believe, think and know today in English.  Of course my mother and her relatives (from whom I learned the language) were rather simple people who said what they meant and did not tend to play useless word games.  As to Greek, I don't trust those innovators and tend to avoid them.  So, I never learned to speak their language. 




I already have alluded to this problem previously in more than a few posts around here. A German speaker would certainly understand the meaning of belief and think outside the cheap manner in which we use it today. And a student of the German language would understand know in the same manner, as it was part and parcel of Germanic languages before disappearing I think in all of them except English. Or if you have Greek of some sort (and I don't think you are allowed to be Orthodox otherwise) then you should have know all wrapped up.

In short, you already understand what I have to say.

How could it ever be otherwise? How can anyone ever learn anything that they didn't already understand?

No one learns anything new. This means no one has to work, especially "teachers".

I doubt you care based on your post, but when I return to real life (use the internet 20 hours a day), I might do more to help you remember.
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« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2013, 05:14:58 PM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is not a yes.  It is an acceptance of what we know to be true.  There is but one path to God and that is not through some great effort on our behalf.  What does being a nice person really mean?  How is this going to help any more than not being a nice person or randomly being a nice person, or even being a mean person?  This is all subjective to what you or I think a nice person is or what a nice person should be doing.  These are our earthly standards, which have little or nothing to do with God.  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I guess by "nice" I am thinking of genuine kindness. The Golden Rule is not unique to Christ's teachings, and frankly, many non-Christians exhibit true kindness better and more regularly than many Christians.

This makes me think of the Parable of the Good Samaritan in St. Luke's Gospel.

"Who is my neighbour?", the expert in the Law asked Jesus...


30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”


I was thinking of those "nice" people that help and love their neighbours, whether subscribing to any particular religion or not.
I guess what really bothers me is when people casually and matter-of-factly claim that good people cannot be saved because, for one reason or another, they do not call themselves Christians. This would of course include many good people that I know and love.

But perhaps I've misconstrued what you wrote. I do that sometimes.


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« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2013, 05:21:56 PM »

BTW, sorry about the thread detour. What were we talking about, again?  Tongue
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »

Yes, I believe sexuality is a choice.

People are born prone to struggle with some sins and not others.

Some may be prone to be heavily tempted to steal.
Some may be prone to be heavily pride filled
Some may be prone to homosexual lusts
Some may be prone to lying
Some may be prone to idolizing stuff

We all have weaknesses... We can all choose the right way too.
That is called freewill.

Even if a man is attracted to men, he should fight his sin.
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2013, 10:21:46 PM »

Yes.
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« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2013, 01:39:34 AM »

@ Tweety (because the quotes were all messed up)

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here.
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« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2013, 01:45:06 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is not a yes.  It is an acceptance of what we know to be true.  There is but one path to God and that is not through some great effort on our behalf.  What does being a nice person really mean?  How is this going to help any more than not being a nice person or randomly being a nice person, or even being a mean person?  This is all subjective to what you or I think a nice person is or what a nice person should be doing.  These are our earthly standards, which have little or nothing to do with God.  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Spoken like a true Southern Baptist.
Lest you think I persecute you without cause, in my experience I only heard this sort of phrases from the  more theologically aware baptist-types; the orthodox just don't talk like that and do not frame the thing like that. There is no Orthodox aversion and scorn to the concept of "being good/nice"  whatever that is, at least never came across with something like that.
You are very welcome.
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« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2013, 02:35:57 AM »

See my above statement.  Being a nice person means nothing.  I hope you realize this.  There are going to be a lot of nice people missing out on the splendors of God in the afterlife.

And are you okay with this? Is it all about being on God's "team" (and the correct team, at that)? Or can someone be somewhere doing the work of a Christian (service, charity, self-sacrifice, love of neighbor) without really knowing it or labeling it as such? Will God judge your heart and your actions in life, or just your Certificate of Baptism?


It makes little difference what I am ok with.  I don't make the rules.

And that would be a 'yes'.
Good people going to hell is okay with you because you believe those are "the rules".
Sorry, it's just that this kind of attitude has never made any sense to me.  Tongue

It is not a yes.  It is an acceptance of what we know to be true.  There is but one path to God and that is not through some great effort on our behalf.  What does being a nice person really mean?  How is this going to help any more than not being a nice person or randomly being a nice person, or even being a mean person?  This is all subjective to what you or I think a nice person is or what a nice person should be doing.  These are our earthly standards, which have little or nothing to do with God.  Nice is good, but it is not enough.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I guess by "nice" I am thinking of genuine kindness. The Golden Rule is not unique to Christ's teachings, and frankly, many non-Christians exhibit true kindness better and more regularly than many Christians.

This makes me think of the Parable of the Good Samaritan in St. Luke's Gospel.

"Who is my neighbour?", the expert in the Law asked Jesus...


30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”


I was thinking of those "nice" people that help and love their neighbours, whether subscribing to any particular religion or not.
I guess what really bothers me is when people casually and matter-of-factly claim that good people cannot be saved because, for one reason or another, they do not call themselves Christians. This would of course include many good people that I know and love.

But perhaps I've misconstrued what you wrote. I do that sometimes.




I'm uncomfortable ruling on anyone's salvation, good or evil. That's for God to do.
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