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Author Topic: Do you want to share your thoughts?  (Read 2370 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« on: January 09, 2013, 08:08:47 PM »

Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 08:22:52 PM »

Well my family's religious background is VERY odd and diverse. My maternal grandparents are lapsed Roman Catholics with strong Pentecostal undertones, my paternal grandfather was a Mormon from Utah--now an atheist, and my paternal grandmother is a lapsed Roman Catholic, somewhat irreligious now. Both of my parents were Roman Catholics at first--as are most Mexican-Americans--and I have a couple of really early memories of attending Mass when I was like 2 or 3 with my mother, maternal grandmother and sometimes father. Anyhoo, both my parents then lapsed and got caught up in the whole Evangelical "Jesus Freaks" hyper-emotional thing of the 1990s and became "non-denominational" Evangelical Protestants. That was pretty much my religious upbringing for about the next decade. When I hit about 11-13, I started highly questioning it--which, for some reason highly angered my parents who would force me to attend Church with them, take away any philosophical book I had and told me I would go to western Hell unless I stopped--this--along with the inconsistencies in Evangelical Protestantism--kinda turned me off to all Christianity in general, and I sorta became an atheist-pseudo Buddhist for the next year or two. My life was also getting pretty lousy at this time, my dad had lost his job and might have relapsed, my mom miscarried, my dog ran away, and the worst of all, we were going to be moving out of town and I was going to be separated from all of my friends.

When the phase finally ended due to my miserable situation, I started reading the Bible and praying to the Christian God with all my might--probably literally like hours every single day in tears, asking that He would move me back with all of my friends. Everyone doubted me and said I should get used to my new situation. Well, after about a year, my miracle came and my mother announced we were moving back. I went to open my Bible afterward and the first passage that came up was Matthew 15:28 which said "...Great is your faith! Let it be done as you desire!" and at that moment I officially decided to convert to Orthodoxy--due to the prompting and teachings that William on here--who was my friend from another forum at the time--had been giving me. Upon moving back to my hometown, I attended my first Orthodox Vespers the first Saturday I was back and just started attending the Church as much as possible until I was finally made a catechumen and was Baptised and received about a year or two later.
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 08:31:08 PM »

Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?

I believed everything Catholicism teaches until I learned more.
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »

Ironically, my paternal grandfather has the most sense out of everyone in my family and he's the godless heathen.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 09:00:47 PM »

I was baptized as an infant in the orthodox church. But when I start to become a believer (18 years), I practiced it more in a protestant denomination and in a protestant way. It was especailly the lack of repentance, contrition of heart  and the "hidden man of the heart" in everyday life of a Protestant and this sort of pride, which arises out of it, which made my change much easier. I'm convinced, that when the true light of Christ shines in your heart, it shows the deepness of your sinfulness and it doesn't lead you that you may often think Christ and you're the best friends, so that you often enjoy to bask in the "spiritual" emotions. To see such a behaviour in many protestant denominations pushed me off, so it was more a change in my heart than a change in my mind.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:28:41 PM by Nathanael » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 10:18:14 PM »

I was brought up in a Greek Orthodox family who never knew anything else about other religions.

MY feelings since were from reading the gospels and listening with my heart to Jesus teachings, He said to convert the gentiles and the Greeks to his teachings, and go out and multiply , but if you go to a church that already believes in Jesus as your saviour you do not nee to be converted,IMHO.

This one upmanship among churches of Christians is not what Christ taught when he said love your nieghbor as yourself.

We need to love all christians as one Church.
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 10:43:25 PM »

I used to not know the difference between denominations. Once I started asking what the differences were and finding real differences, I came to the conclusion that someone had to be right. That led me to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 11:02:30 PM »

My thoughts are already "thinking out loud" ...What I'm really thinking is private.
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2013, 11:46:10 PM »

I'm gonna skip out on this one guys!

Christ is born!

We all rejoice in this.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 11:47:08 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 06:14:45 AM »

Why do you care so much?
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 01:14:26 PM »


We need to love all christians as one Church.

Agreed.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »

I'm gonna skip out on this one guys!

Christ is born!

We all rejoice in this.  Wink

indeed. Everything else is just details.
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tweety234
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 01:16:35 PM »

Why do you care so much?

I don't care much. I am curious.
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2013, 07:15:23 PM »

I used to not know the difference between denominations. Once I started asking what the differences were and finding real differences, I came to the conclusion that someone had to be right. That led me to Orthodoxy.

The righteous do not need Christ, he warned the pharisees , now we want to say our way.

◄  Matthew 9:13  ►

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2013, 08:26:33 PM »

I used to not know the difference between denominations. Once I started asking what the differences were and finding real differences, I came to the conclusion that someone had to be right. That led me to Orthodoxy.
The righteous do not need Christ, he warned the pharisees , now we want to say our way.

◄  Matthew 9:13  ►

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

What does that have do with what I wrote?
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 08:33:40 PM »

You put yourself above the other denominations.
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

You want to go to your church why?What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.

You claim to have the right one.

I will go to any that are open and willing to pray to Jesus for salvation, although I am a baptized Greek orthodox.
 I try love my neighbors church as my own if I am welcomed.

Christ told the disciples thus
Matthew 10
40“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”

We have to try is all I am saying to be loving to all Christians, and convert non-Christians,IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:04:01 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 09:17:07 PM »

You put yourself above the other denominations.

I don't put myself above anyone or anything.

Quote
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

Christ instituted a Church, not just a philosophy about being nice to each other.

Quote
You want to go to your church why?

Because it is the one Christ established and has best maintained His truth.

Quote
What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.

My reasons for becoming Orthodox had nothing to do with judging the character of anyone else.

Quote
You claim to have the right one.

Everyone claims to have the right one.

Quote
I will go to any that are open and willing to pray to Jesus for salvation, although I am a baptized Greek orthodox.
 I try love my neighbors church as my own if I am welcomed.

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean accepting wrong beliefs as being true or pretending that denominational divisions don't exist.

Quote
Christ told the disciples thus
Matthew 10
40“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”

He also said to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 09:35:25 PM »

You put yourself above the other denominations.
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

You want to go to your church why?What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.

You claim to have the right one.

I will go to any that are open and willing to pray to Jesus for salvation, although I am a baptized Greek orthodox.
 I try love my neighbors church as my own if I am welcomed.

Christ told the disciples thus
Matthew 10
40“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”

We have to try is all I am saying to be loving to all Christians, and convert non-Christians,IMHO.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
That is what I think too. I thought I was the only one, and I got despaired because I didn't have any company into this. Why are people so close minded.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2013, 09:06:46 PM »

You put yourself above the other denominations.

I don't put myself above anyone or anything.

Quote
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

Christ instituted a Church, not just a philosophy about being nice to each other.

Quote
You want to go to your church why?

Because it is the one Christ established and has best maintained His truth.

Quote
What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.

My reasons for becoming Orthodox had nothing to do with judging the character of anyone else.

Quote
You claim to have the right one.

Everyone claims to have the right one.

Quote
I will go to any that are open and willing to pray to Jesus for salvation, although I am a baptized Greek orthodox.
 I try love my neighbors church as my own if I am welcomed.

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean accepting wrong beliefs as being true or pretending that denominational divisions don't exist.

Quote
Christ told the disciples thus
Matthew 10
40“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”

He also said to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

You said yours is best , because you are good enough to know that,Jesus said no one is good but God, and yet you claim judgement, go to your church but also remember salvation is a gift not from your church, But from God and Jesus said the one who claimed to be worthless was redeemed, not the one who said he knew best from worst.He who humbles himself. I would not tell anyone I have the best church, Here is why.

Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

You said everyone says his is the right one, the man in the parable did not and neither do I , also Tweety agrees he knows not the right one.

I will forgive you as I hope I am forgiven my trespasses.

JESUS CHRIST ,SON OF GOD HAVE MERCY ON US .
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:22:40 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2013, 11:52:05 PM »

You said everyone says his is the right one, the man in the parable did not and neither do I , also Tweety agrees he knows not the right one.

I don't see how believing that one's church teaches the truth somehow automatically means that person thinks they are a better person than everyone else. Just because I believe my Church teaches the truth does not mean that I claim to be better at following its teachings (which are Christ's teachings that were entrusted to it that it has faithfully passed down) and it does not mean that I deny my own personal sinfulness or need for repentance. Keep in mind both individuals in the parable went to the same place to pray to the same God and held the same religious beliefs (they were of the same "denomination"). If you're going to quote scripture, please keep it in context.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 03:21:40 AM »

You know when different parties present different and mutually exclusive theories they can't all be right. Eventually we have to choose. I believe the Fathers were not at all reluctant to make these kinds of judgments. Saint Nicholas even punched Arius in the face over such an issue.

Now I am certainly no equal to the Church Fathers and may be too ecumenical, but when I left my church, I didn't leave the church or the denomination I left Protestantism. Further, for my part I didn't and don't hate anyone, nor am I better than anyone. I have many Protestant friends and family members who I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are very sincere in their beliefs and desire to serve God. No, I am no better than them and certainly in some ways worse. But it is possible to be sincere and also be sincerely wrong. Not in all matters, but definitely in some major ones.

For my part I was a Charismatic Minister, and was in charge of outreach in my church. I believe God spoke to me through the agency of the songs we were singing. First, I came to a point where I could no longer sing songs like “I surrender all” without being willing to truly surrender all, which at the time I though meant going to a third world country without electricity as a missionary. I will mention I also felt spoken to in a song, the lyrics of which included words to the effect that I needed to be willing to surrender even what I believed. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. Anyway, I began a season of fasting and prayer seeking to be totally surrendered to God's will. During that time my wife asked me to look into rather her Roman Catholic parents were “saved” or not. I started researching salvation and realized that various Protestant denominations had different and conflicting views of salvation all supposedly based on the same Bible. This is when I realized that these different beliefs were not based on the Bible but on the Bible and their respective traditions. This occurring in many churches that denied having tradition, or at least denied that their tradition was just as important to them as their Bible. I knew at that point, in the middle of my prayer and fasting to be totally surrendered, that I couldn't just ignore this. I had to make a choice and the other song lyric began to make sense. I chose, therefore, not one of the 500 year old or less traditions that claims to believe only the Bible, but the 2000 year old tradition that determined what the Christian Bible is.  I left my church in peace, saying goodbye in the Sunday morning service with the leadership's permission. I still love and pray for them and while I believe their tradition is wrong about some things and the Orthodox Church right I don't believe I am better.
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 08:14:04 AM »

Are you asaking whether I think some churches are better than others, you're damn straight I do. Don't you?
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 08:26:44 PM »

You know when different parties present different and mutually exclusive theories they can't all be right. Eventually we have to choose. I believe the Fathers were not at all reluctant to make these kinds of judgments. Saint Nicholas even punched Arius in the face over such an issue.

Now I am certainly no equal to the Church Fathers and may be too ecumenical, but when I left my church, I didn't leave the church or the denomination I left Protestantism. Further, for my part I didn't and don't hate anyone, nor am I better than anyone. I have many Protestant friends and family members who I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are very sincere in their beliefs and desire to serve God. No, I am no better than them and certainly in some ways worse. But it is possible to be sincere and also be sincerely wrong. Not in all matters, but definitely in some major ones.

For my part I was a Charismatic Minister, and was in charge of outreach in my church. I believe God spoke to me through the agency of the songs we were singing. First, I came to a point where I could no longer sing songs like “I surrender all” without being willing to truly surrender all, which at the time I though meant going to a third world country without electricity as a missionary. I will mention I also felt spoken to in a song, the lyrics of which included words to the effect that I needed to be willing to surrender even what I believed. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. Anyway, I began a season of fasting and prayer seeking to be totally surrendered to God's will. During that time my wife asked me to look into rather her Roman Catholic parents were “saved” or not. I started researching salvation and realized that various Protestant denominations had different and conflicting views of salvation all supposedly based on the same Bible. This is when I realized that these different beliefs were not based on the Bible but on the Bible and their respective traditions. This occurring in many churches that denied having tradition, or at least denied that their tradition was just as important to them as their Bible. I knew at that point, in the middle of my prayer and fasting to be totally surrendered, that I couldn't just ignore this. I had to make a choice and the other song lyric began to make sense. I chose, therefore, not one of the 500 year old or less traditions that claims to believe only the Bible, but the 2000 year old tradition that determined what the Christian Bible is.  I left my church in peace, saying goodbye in the Sunday morning service with the leadership's permission. I still love and pray for them and while I believe their tradition is wrong about some things and the Orthodox Church right I don't believe I am better.

Yes we can choose, but we also can be humble and not puffed up about it.

Saints and church fathers are or were also sinners subject to being wrong, Just as the Pope,bishops, or any man or woman is subject to God and his judgement of what is best.

We are to humble ourselves, there was only one sinless blameless man, and we crucified him, now you are all of a sudden righteous?

He ridiculed the leaders then for being righteous ,and told them he came for the sinners. You are now acting as the righteous who need no savior because you know what is best, unlike your neighbor who goes to that other christian church.

 I say I will go to both your churches and together we can ask Jesus to help us all.

Matthew 18
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus Christ, Son of God ,Lord have mercy on us as we have mercy on others.
 
Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 
Jesus went to the Temples to help them , even knowing beforehand that the leaders would reject him, he kept going to all of them.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 08:48:16 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2013, 02:39:05 AM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2013, 04:14:06 AM »

Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?

Not really.  I was brought up as a Southern Baptist, and I slowly started to fade away from believing in that as I began feeble attempts at evangelizing others online and listening to their counter arguments.  I had seriously considered Islam off and on, and had said the shahadah and prayers before.. and I even filled out a declaration card, to declare myself as a Baha'i in 2010... 

I converted to Orthodoxy in January of 2011 because, there was nothing like it.  I saw the incense, the images, and experiencing the Divine Liturgy was like "Heaven on Earth".  At the time I had been feeling very spiritually and emotionally malnourished by my experience among the Baha'i's and so it was truly a breath of fresh air.  I had been searching into historical Christianity at the time, and it was also in that same year that my mother converted to Roman Catholicism.   I just happened to agree with the Orthodox more...
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2013, 08:43:42 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2013, 10:04:22 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  Huh
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2013, 10:06:08 PM »

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

Every church has sinners. Not every church has historical continuity with Christ and teaches the correct doctrine.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2013, 10:13:43 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  Huh

Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

 I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2013, 10:50:35 PM »

People in the Church are not always correct, and no one is infallible; nonetheless, Christ did found a Church, and it exists today, and it is exclusivistic just like it was in NT times. Be a Berean!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:50:52 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 11:03:22 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  Huh

Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

 I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.

My reply to your post was not one of judgement and I in no way claim to disagree with you and I don't declare myself of my church to never have made a mistake. Its just uncommon to hear that not even one church somewhere has been able to keep the correct faith and it caught me off guard. I apologize for any harm my words have caused you.
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 11:13:15 PM »

I was raised in an immediate family that was pretty non religious (one might even say anti religious.)  My grandparents were all Catholic, coming from immigrant families from Poland, Germany, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  My Polish grandmother took me to mass as a youngin' and I absolutely loved it, so I do consider myself to be coming from a Roman Catholic background, even though I was a baptized Presbyterian.

I find the Orthodox Church to be wonderful.  It is the ancient Church.  The Orthodox Church has monasteries, holy fathers and mothers, so many saints, and many other things.

I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that I also love my Church because it makes me feel in touch with my Slavic roots.
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2013, 02:37:33 AM »

You put yourself above the other denominations.
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

You want to go to your church why?What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.

Well, I am curious as to how you will respond to the Apostle Paul

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

and some other words:

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

and

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."

and

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2013, 03:42:18 AM »

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2013, 10:29:32 AM »

Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?

I believed everything Catholicism teaches until I learned more.


Somewhat like choy, I was born and raised Lutheran and except for the stereotypical college drift, I believed the theology and teachings of the Lutheran church until I learned more. I wasn't looking (consciously, anyway) for Orthodoxy when I found it - nothing could have been further from my mind. Actually I had been accepted to seminary, and was in the formal discernment process for the ordained ministry. I prayed for God to show me His will. Boy, was that ever a mistake! Be careful what you pray for...
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2013, 01:08:24 PM »

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.

I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?
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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2013, 02:58:37 PM »

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.

I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?

Because the Church is not simply a community of mortal sinners - it is the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2013, 03:17:54 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  Huh

Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

 I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.

You elevate yourself above the fray and proclaim Solomonic impartiality. That is an an Orthodox mindset that I am not familiar with. Please help me understand. I am having a really hard time figuring out how a poster who advises all to be humble is so puffed up and self-righteous.
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2013, 03:41:21 PM »

Perhaps someone could explain how believing that the Orthodox Church is the historic one true Church demonstrate that one does not love one's neighbors?
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2013, 03:55:41 PM »

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.

I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?

WE don't heal others.

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« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »

Well, others can be healed through us, but that's different...
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« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2013, 07:06:30 PM »

Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.

I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.

i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  Huh

Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

 I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.

You elevate yourself above the fray and proclaim Solomonic impartiality. That is an an Orthodox mindset that I am not familiar with. Please help me understand. I am having a really hard time figuring out how a poster who advises all to be humble is so puffed up and self-righteous.
A wise man once said

There are two kinds of men, hypocrites and dead ones.

Did you see my name?
I did not mean to sound above any fray, if I did then it was unintentional.I have quoted the scriptures that I think convey my point.
Jesus plainly said there he is with any 2 or three who pray in his name, I have been told by some clergy that Christ will not step inside a Catholic church ,and vice versa. I say we should be forgiving one another.

I have said I will go to any ones church and pray with them.I am only saying I love my church until that means I am better than someone else. I have discussed this with Bishops, my cousin is head in the Greek islands.I have reasons that I argue why we have not humbled ourselves and rejoin our Brothers after a thousand years of silly bickering, many Greek Orthodox concur many do not.

I will pray with any Christians. And I will not tell them  I am from the better church. How can I explain, I think there is no righteous church ,just as there is no righteous man, I am not putting myself above , I am asking why most others do.

 I think God wants us all together, and this is my only Goal.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 07:20:22 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2013, 07:15:50 PM »

Quote
I have discussed this with Bishops, my cousin is head in the Greek islands.I have reasons that I argue why we have not humbled ourselves and rejoin our Brothers after a thousand years of silly bickering, many Greek Orthodox concur many do not.

From the Divine Liturgy:

Quote
Among the first, remember, O Lord, (names of ruling bishops) Grant them for Thy holy churches in peace, safety, honor, health, and length of days, to rightly proclaim the word of Thy truth.
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Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2013, 02:05:09 AM »

Did you see my name?

Yes, I saw your name, probably in about the same fashion that you saw me explain that I don't think I'm any better than you or anyone else.

I am not putting myself above , I am asking why most others do.

Could it be that in seeming to look into our heads and our hearts to come to a conclusion about what we think ie. that we're better than someone else, that this is where you seem to be putting your self above?

I think God wants us all together, and this is my only Goal.

And hey it's a worthwhile goal, I think He would prefer us all together too. But does He not also desire truth? There are real theological differences in the way of some of those reunions. To be sure in my own opinion, which can fly just past the end of my nose, I think there are some separations that are little more than semantics, but not all of them. Are you going to reunite with the Jehovah's Witnesses? They believe in God, they believe in Jesus, just not the Trinity, right? Do you reunite with Judaism? Do you reunite with the earth goddess people? Where do you draw the line? By the standard you seem to be putting out if we draw any lines we're being self-righteous. I don't think that's what your saying, but if your not a line has to be drawn somewhere.
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Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.
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Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2013, 10:39:18 PM »

Let God Judge them.

I do not want that job Grin
◄  Matthew 18:20  ►


For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

I am not suggesting we accept any doctrine, But that we quit trying to be picky rather than forgive.
He said mercy above all else, and who are we to judge others.

And most of what has occurred in the past , such as the differences over the Pope, I agree with both sides somewhat, but my preferences are not more Important than Love and faith, God will not judge you wrongly based on what church you were brought up in.Or what church you converted to. do you think he should condemn those others who did not convert with you, or do you think he will condemn those for the mistakes of their churches doctrine?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 10:57:40 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
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