Author Topic: After the death of animails  (Read 3085 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2013, 11:45:26 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2013, 11:50:46 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.

You seem to be adding conditions.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2013, 11:54:11 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

No one is suggesting that all animals are "saints" or anything. But they certainly aren't just emotionless commodities.
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.

You seem to be adding conditions.

I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2013, 12:01:02 PM »
It is true. The more we learn about animals and animal behaviour, the more we understand that they feel emotions, sometimes deeply, build friendship bonds, demonstrate altruism and self-sacrifice, mourn the dead, and so on.

How do we know they feel emotions in the way we define emotions?

There is no way that we can know that exactly. But I don't think it takes a very thorough examination of recent books and studies on zoology or animal behaviour to see that some of them are capable of experiencing emotions that appear to be very much like those we experience.

Maybe try exploring some of these titles if you are interested:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Emotional-Lives-Animals-Scientist/dp/1577316290/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
http://www.amazon.com/When-Elephants-Weep-Emotional-Animals/dp/0385314280/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357919947&sr=1-1&keywords=when+elephants+weep+the+emotional+lives+of+animals

EDIT: Decided not to open different can of worms here...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:03:43 PM by stavros_388 »
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2013, 12:03:19 PM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2013, 12:06:21 PM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death. After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2013, 12:28:44 PM »
Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death.

They do actually.  I've seen it many times.  Among my pets even.  Cats and dogs.  As I mentioned above, cats commit infanticide (or kittenicide, if you wish) to protect their alpha status.  Territorial disputes can and do turn ugly.  We've had dogs once that when the other one came as a puppy, the older one was really mean to him.  The puppy grew up to be a bigger dog (they were mongrels so we don't know if what breed they are and how big they will get) and every opportunity he had he would viciously attack the other dog.  These are well fed house dogs, not feral, fighting for survival dogs.  The only reason the other dog didn't die was because we intervened.  But he was never the same, obviously physical trauma from the numerous attacks.  We literally had to create a wall between our front and back yards to keep them apart until we found someone to take the other dog.

After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.

As noted above, that is completely not true.  Stop watching animal planet which is run by the PETA types who try to convince us that animals are better than us.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2013, 12:44:20 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2013, 12:52:26 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2013, 12:57:58 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.

I've never had the privilege of enjoying an elephant's company. Perhaps one day! Every elephant I've met has seemed really nice, though.  ;D
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2013, 12:59:30 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.

I've never had the privilege of enjoying an elephant's company. Perhaps one day! Every elephant I've met has seemed really nice, though.  ;D

Haha! Well, I've never met an elephant in the wild, but I got to pet an elephant at the zoo once.  :D They are awesome and one day I shall ride one! hehe.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2013, 01:15:53 PM »
Choy, I'm not sure you understand what an emotion is.
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Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2013, 02:26:21 PM »
Choy, I'm not sure you understand what an emotion is.

Of course I do.

Do you know that if you separate mother cats from their kittens for about a week, they completely forget about their kittens and lose their maternal instinct?  So much for "emotional attachment".  Even if they walk past their kittens after that week, they won't even acknowledge them.  So much for intellect.

Online Cyrillic

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2013, 02:48:51 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

Even pugs? My pug wouldn't hate you. She is incapable of hate.  :angel:
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2013, 03:01:32 PM »
exotic shorthairs and persians are the coolest cats ever! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzyObWRHSrw
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 03:02:24 PM by Eastern Mind »

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2013, 03:07:09 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

Same here.  We've owned dogs but they were never "mine".

Offline biro

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2013, 07:58:31 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

I'm sorry.

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2013, 08:25:55 PM »
There is this park I like to go to ever so often, to walk and act like I'm being healthy. Near it is this cemetary with a path that some people like to walk up, because it has windy paths and steep hills...deer like to hang out up there, behind the hills, so I avoid that part when I am walking through it. But this day, I guess the deer decided to chill on the other side. I didn't even see them...well, until...you'll see...

One day I was taking a walk on the path through the city cemetery.  I'm walking along, and I hear this grunt. "What is that?" So I turn around, and...this doe is walking menacingly towards me, snorting at me. "Oh crap, her babies must be nearby and she thinks I will hurt them."


Anyhow, I'm about ready to wet my pants when suddenly, this goose...and I swear I'm not making this up...this goose just flies between us and starts honking at the doe, and flapping its wings! I'm just standing there dumbfounded at the whole thing, and the doe backs up and trots away. After a few seconds, the goose waddles away, before flying off back to the park (there is a fishing pond at the park that geese and ducks hang out in).

Aaaaaannnnnd that's how a random goose saved my butt from being trampled.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2013, 08:48:47 PM »
I hope there'll be hot dogs and cataphatic theology in heaven.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2013, 11:16:57 PM »
Attention Animal Lovers:

Here's a nice little spread I discovered today with 14 examples of animals exhibiting human-like emotions...........

"Animals are capable of so much more compassion, love, bravery, and ingenuity than most people realize. Here are 14 incredible stories that reveal their hidden depths."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/stories-that-prove-animals-have-souls


*Please disregard the title of the article if you wish, as I am not trying to make that argument here.
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline alanscott

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2013, 11:55:15 AM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death. After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.

While it does not indicate animals don’t have emotions it happens constantly in the animal kingdom. Some species kill their young as form of natural selection, some times an animal will kill off a rival alpha male, and at times there are territorial killings. Usually though as you mentioned supremacy fights and territorial fights are not till death.  Chimps can become insanely violent. It is well documented they will kill for no other apparent reason than what appears to be an anger management issue. There have been other cases of chimpanzee tribes that basically perform a premeditated organized commando type attack on neighboring tribes. This has happened in areas where there is not an apparent territorial or food source issue. There seems to be no other reasoning other than a tendency toward violence and ‘murder’. In some cases the killings are down right horrid including apparent torture prior to death and genital dismemberment. Most humans killed by animals seem to be motivated by protecting their young, defense, or see humans as a food source. Chimps are the exception to that rule as well. NOT a good idea for a pet! Going 'ape #%#@' is a phrase that has been coined for a reason!  

Again, none of this is evidence that animals do not have emotion, and perhaps in the case of chimpanzees it very well might indicate they do.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:56:52 AM by alanscott »
There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.