Author Topic: After the death of animails  (Read 3206 times)

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Offline walter1234

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After the death of animails
« on: January 08, 2013, 11:14:53 AM »
From the view of Orthodoxy, will the animals totally disappear after they die?
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 11:17:56 AM by walter1234 »

Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 11:19:14 AM »
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?

Even if there is such possibility, my cat won't manage to do it.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 11:25:08 AM »
From the view of Orthodoxy, will the animals totally disappear after they die?
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?
If God created animals in the beginning, then animals probably will be in the Kingdom.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 11:44:34 AM »
We know there will be at least 4 horses.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 11:46:29 AM »
From the view of Orthodoxy, will the animals totally disappear after they die?
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?
If God created animals in the beginning, then animals probably will be in the Kingdom.

I hope so
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 12:25:21 PM »
We know there will be at least 4 horses.

I always wondered why they'd be riding horses.  Giant cassowaries would be much more apocalyptic. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 12:32:55 PM »
Or T-Rex's. Now those would be fun.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 12:54:29 PM »
Or T-Rex's. Now those would be fun.

When you think about it, T-Rexes could be considered giant cassowaries, in an evolutionary way of thinking...
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 12:57:21 PM »
From the view of Orthodoxy, will the animals totally disappear after they die?
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?
If God created animals in the beginning, then animals probably will be in the Kingdom.

God created slime. Animals were just the middle part while God was waiting for us!  :angel:
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 11:02:19 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals. Since God is love that extends as far as possible, He will have to re-created the animals, as well, at His Second Coming. I've heard this view expressed in The Church, but I can't point you to any sources, except maybe Fr. Thomas Hopko, if you can find where he said this.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:02:48 PM by IoanC »

Offline Nephi

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 11:16:47 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals. Since God is love that extends as far as possible, He will have to re-created the animals, as well, at His Second Coming. I've heard this view expressed in The Church, but I can't point you to any sources, except maybe Fr. Thomas Hopko, if you can find where he said this.
I'm not sure if it's unnatural for animals. I've heard a few different opinions on this. Some talk about death occurring in the Garden before the Fall - as it would have had to for Adam and Eve to eat, even if they were only eating plants. Others say that only humans were created with the potential for immortality, and animals weren't.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 11:26:33 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals. Since God is love that extends as far as possible, He will have to re-created the animals, as well, at His Second Coming.

I hope He doesn't recreate mosquitoes.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 11:27:46 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals. Since God is love that extends as far as possible, He will have to re-created the animals, as well, at His Second Coming.

I hope He doesn't recreate mosquitoes.

Or roaches.  :P
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2013, 11:30:17 PM »
From the view of Orthodoxy, will the animals totally disappear after they die?
I think that something of how that animal glorified God and gave thanks to God through the way it existed will be redeemed and re-capitulated in the Kingdom of God.

But the animal as a hypostasis? No, all flourishing beasts return to their source.

Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?
I presume there will be animals in the Kingdom of God, as God chose to create them and continually sustains them and relates to them lovingly.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:33:15 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2013, 11:34:57 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals.
You must at least acknowledge that God facilitates the death of animals.

"The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God."
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 11:38:46 PM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals.
You must at least acknowledge that God facilitates the death of animals.

"The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God."

I acknowledge, as long as you are not suggesting that God relishes the opportunity to facilitate death.  :) The fact that He needs to feed animals in such a horrific way is again just another unnatural consequence of the fall into sin.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 11:39:55 PM »
The fact that He needs to feed animals in such a horrific way is again just another unnatural consequence of the fall into sin.
I often wonder...

Is it horrific because it's horrific, or is it horrific because we don't butcher our own food anymore?
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 11:44:43 PM »
The fact that He needs to feed animals in such a horrific way is again just another unnatural consequence of the fall into sin.
I often wonder...

Is it horrific because it's horrific, or is it horrific because we don't butcher our own food anymore?

The fact that we don't butcher our food anymore is proof that humanity can progress given the chance.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 11:45:56 PM »
The fact that He needs to feed animals in such a horrific way is again just another unnatural consequence of the fall into sin.
I often wonder...

Is it horrific because it's horrific, or is it horrific because we don't butcher our own food anymore?

The fact that we don't butcher our food anymore is proof that humanity can progress given the chance.
But we do, I mean, we do it in a factory, just not at home.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 11:47:28 PM »
The fact that He needs to feed animals in such a horrific way is again just another unnatural consequence of the fall into sin.
I often wonder...

Is it horrific because it's horrific, or is it horrific because we don't butcher our own food anymore?

The fact that we don't butcher our food anymore is proof that humanity can progress given the chance.
But we do, I mean, we do it in a factory, just not at home.

Well, one day, we won't anymore.

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2013, 12:16:51 AM »
God does not destroy what He creates. Death is an unnatural occurrence both for us and animals. Since God is love that extends as far as possible, He will have to re-created the animals, as well, at His Second Coming. I've heard this view expressed in The Church, but I can't point you to any sources, except maybe Fr. Thomas Hopko, if you can find where he said this.
I'm not sure if it's unnatural for animals. I've heard a few different opinions on this. Some talk about death occurring in the Garden before the Fall - as it would have had to for Adam and Eve to eat, even if they were only eating plants. Others say that only humans were created with the potential for immortality, and animals weren't.

I remember when the Simpsons did Adam and Eve with Homer and Marge, Homer took some bacon from a live pig and the pig happily ran away afterwards alive  ;D

On a serious note, yes, I forgot where I read it, but that there is a contrast between angels and animals, and that humans are the combination of both.  Angels being purely spiritual and intellectual beings, while animals are purely physical beings.  So death might actually be a default property of the physical world.  I have to look this up again, I am not explaining it very well.

Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 12:26:49 AM »
If you believe that death is part of the way God created the world, then you also must believe death is good, and that God is the author of death.

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2013, 12:52:35 AM »
If you believe that death is part of the way God created the world, then you also must believe death is good, and that God is the author of death.

Death of material things, not death of those created in the image and likeness of God.  Is it acceptable that there is a difference?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2013, 01:05:10 AM »
The new earth will probably have animals. I have not come across evidence that God will "recreate" our pets, however.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2013, 01:11:34 AM »
If you believe that death is part of the way God created the world, then you also must believe death is good, and that God is the author of death.

Death of material things, not death of those created in the image and likeness of God.  Is it acceptable that there is a difference?
Human biological death is only one result of the Spiritual Death of the Fall. I believe it was St. Irenaeus who said that God gave man over to biological death in order to limit his Spiritual Death, and so that he would not become some sort of lingering corrupted monster, compounding his corruption into infinity.

"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live to the ages.' Therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden..."
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 01:13:57 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2013, 01:16:31 AM »
If you believe that death is part of the way God created the world, then you also must believe death is good, and that God is the author of death.

Death of material things, not death of those created in the image and likeness of God.  Is it acceptable that there is a difference?

Animals are not material things. They are not created in the image and likeness of God, but they are still beings, capable of experience feelings (joy, tenderness, love, pain), of relating to other animals and ourselves, of a certain intelligence. So, if they can be a recipient for God's love, then God will want them.

Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 01:17:38 AM »
The new earth will probably have animals. I have not come across evidence that God will "recreate" our pets, however.

God will recreate all that is capable of experiencing His love. If He can make them now and provide for them, how much more in the Age to Come. Doesn't matter if they are pets, as long as they are capable of experiencing God's love for them.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 01:18:09 AM by IoanC »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 01:21:51 AM »
The new earth will probably have animals. I have not come across evidence that God will "recreate" our pets, however.

God will recreate all that is capable of experiencing His love. If He can make them now and provide for them, how much more in the Age to Come. Doesn't matter if they are pets, as long as they are capable of experiencing God's love for them.

Patristic sources?
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Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2013, 01:27:21 AM »
The new earth will probably have animals. I have not come across evidence that God will "recreate" our pets, however.

God will recreate all that is capable of experiencing His love. If He can make them now and provide for them, how much more in the Age to Come. Doesn't matter if they are pets, as long as they are capable of experiencing God's love for them.

Patristic sources?

I've heard them, but I can't provide any. Fr. - MK Thomas Hopko's podcast is all I remember as far as other people saying these things. Anyway, it would be anti-life to think that God would not extend His love to all the beings that He can. Why did He make all this? If they are worthwhile now, why can't they continue to be forever? And, death was not the initial plan for creation, but eternal life. The animals that Adam named were not supposed to die. So then if those animals were not supposed to die, why would others? Plus, animals are not things. If there can be a bond and feelings between us and animals, if animals know who we are and get used to us, then it would be very sad if they were not remade, if God was to ever remake anything.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:46:13 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2013, 02:41:25 AM »
Animals are not material things. They are not created in the image and likeness of God, but they are still beings, capable of experience feelings (joy, tenderness, love, pain), of relating to other animals and ourselves, of a certain intelligence. So, if they can be a recipient for God's love, then God will want them.

I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, but according to what I have learned so far, this is not Orthodox teaching.  That is that animals have joy, tenderness and love.  Pain yes, but a physical pain, not emotional.  Animals act according to their nature whereas humans currently in the fallen world do not.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 02:47:30 AM »
Are there any animals in the Kingdom of God?

Even if there is such possibility, my cat won't manage to do it.
Nor will mine!

Offline IoanC

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 03:04:38 AM »
Animals are not material things. They are not created in the image and likeness of God, but they are still beings, capable of experience feelings (joy, tenderness, love, pain), of relating to other animals and ourselves, of a certain intelligence. So, if they can be a recipient for God's love, then God will want them.

I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, but according to what I have learned so far, this is not Orthodox teaching.  That is that animals have joy, tenderness and love.  Pain yes, but a physical pain, not emotional.  Animals act according to their nature whereas humans currently in the fallen world do not.

Not at all Orthodox teaching as far as I know. Would mean that animals are robots or objects. I think that confusion arises when we say that men are created in the image and likeness of God, whereas animals are not. This means that animals are not in charge of themselves, but not that they are not capable of feelings, intelligence and bonding; they are capable, but their life is solely guided by The Holy Spirit. We are also guided by The Holy Spirit, but we also have the choice to accept or reject God. Animals are more like children. And I don't think we need anybody to tell us that animals experience joy, tenderness, even love. We can see this for ourselves. Personally, my interactions with animals have been very meaningful, intelligent and I had a feeling that there was an actual relationship between us, a progressive relationship. In no way would I accept to not consider them my friends and simply expect that they will go into nothingness as if they are objects. This is so contrary to the loving nature of God.

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 03:09:12 AM »
Animals are not material things. They are not created in the image and likeness of God, but they are still beings, capable of experience feelings (joy, tenderness, love, pain), of relating to other animals and ourselves, of a certain intelligence. So, if they can be a recipient for God's love, then God will want them.

I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, but according to what I have learned so far, this is not Orthodox teaching.  That is that animals have joy, tenderness and love.  Pain yes, but a physical pain, not emotional.  Animals act according to their nature whereas humans currently in the fallen world do not.

Have you ever owned a dog, cat, or horse, Choy?
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2013, 04:20:54 AM »
Have you ever owned a dog, cat, or horse, Choy?

Yes.  I have a cat everyday of my life until I left the Philippines when I was 30 (not too long ago).  They all have names, and I love them very much.  But I make no false pretenses about their humanity.  I would imagine they do have emotion and all, I would even make up dialogues in my mind among them and between them and me.  But at the end of the day, I know those are all made up.  My brain is naturally very analytic, I do watch and observe and ponder on what I see.  Because the Philippines is a tropical country, cats don't stay indoors.  There is no winter that would kill them if they stay outdoors.  Thus they are semi-feral.  It is interesting the dynamics of cats in their natural instincts.  I have seen other cats or even my own cats kill kittens of one of my felines, those who they feel will be a threat to their dominance of the territory.

This assigning of human qualities to animals is actually sort of a heresy against the dignity of humans as created by God.  I was listening to a podcast regarding this from AFR about a week ago.  The guy on the interview said, and I agree with him, that humans are the only one who are capable of a moral choice.  If a seal is dying on a beach, only humans will try and rescue it.  Other animals will either try to eat it or ignore it.

Offline LBK

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2013, 07:43:23 AM »
Quote
This assigning of human qualities to animals is actually sort of a heresy against the dignity of humans as created by God.

Animals such as dogs, cats, and horses are quite capable of interacting and communicating with us through facial expression, vocal expression, and gesture/bodily posture. These behaviors are neither random nor purely instinctive. To say that they are incapable of feeling and expressing emotions such as joy, sorrow, puzzlement, contentment, contempt, and, yes, love and grief, is simply wrong. This is not anthropomorphism, it's simply a fact.

Cats have been part of my life for the better part of 40 years, and I could easily write a book on some of them.

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Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 07:49:53 AM »
Have you ever owned a dog, cat, or horse, Choy?

Yes.  I have a cat everyday of my life until I left the Philippines when I was 30 (not too long ago).  They all have names, and I love them very much.  But I make no false pretenses about their humanity.  I would imagine they do have emotion and all, I would even make up dialogues in my mind among them and between them and me.  But at the end of the day, I know those are all made up.  My brain is naturally very analytic, I do watch and observe and ponder on what I see.  Because the Philippines is a tropical country, cats don't stay indoors.  There is no winter that would kill them if they stay outdoors.  Thus they are semi-feral.  It is interesting the dynamics of cats in their natural instincts.  I have seen other cats or even my own cats kill kittens of one of my felines, those who they feel will be a threat to their dominance of the territory.

This assigning of human qualities to animals is actually sort of a heresy against the dignity of humans as created by God.  I was listening to a podcast regarding this from AFR about a week ago.  The guy on the interview said, and I agree with him, that humans are the only one who are capable of a moral choice.  If a seal is dying on a beach, only humans will try and rescue it.  Other animals will either try to eat it or ignore it.

I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2013, 08:44:08 AM »
Have you ever owned a dog, cat, or horse, Choy?

Yes.  I have a cat everyday of my life until I left the Philippines when I was 30 (not too long ago).  They all have names, and I love them very much.  But I make no false pretenses about their humanity.  I would imagine they do have emotion and all, I would even make up dialogues in my mind among them and between them and me.  But at the end of the day, I know those are all made up.  My brain is naturally very analytic, I do watch and observe and ponder on what I see.  Because the Philippines is a tropical country, cats don't stay indoors.  There is no winter that would kill them if they stay outdoors.  Thus they are semi-feral.  It is interesting the dynamics of cats in their natural instincts.  I have seen other cats or even my own cats kill kittens of one of my felines, those who they feel will be a threat to their dominance of the territory.

This assigning of human qualities to animals is actually sort of a heresy against the dignity of humans as created by God.  I was listening to a podcast regarding this from AFR about a week ago.  The guy on the interview said, and I agree with him, that humans are the only one who are capable of a moral choice.  If a seal is dying on a beach, only humans will try and rescue it.  Other animals will either try to eat it or ignore it.

I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

And there are many accounts of dogs standing guard over the dead body of their human master, not allowing others to approach; I know of a police horse which defused a situation by bringing its front hoof down on the foot of an abusive drunk and fixing its gaze on him to prove his point; and I could tell of many stories of my own cats over the years which prove time and again that they well and truly have emotions, and aren't shy about showing them.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 08:46:18 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2013, 09:27:08 AM »
Animals are not material things. They are not created in the image and likeness of God, but they are still beings, capable of experience feelings (joy, tenderness, love, pain), of relating to other animals and ourselves, of a certain intelligence. So, if they can be a recipient for God's love, then God will want them.

I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, but according to what I have learned so far, this is not Orthodox teaching.  That is that animals have joy, tenderness and love.  Pain yes, but a physical pain, not emotional.  Animals act according to their nature whereas humans currently in the fallen world do not.

Actually, elephants have been known to express emotional pain and grieve deeply over the loss of a member of the herd.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2013, 11:04:28 AM »
It is true. The more we learn about animals and animal behaviour, the more we understand that they feel emotions, sometimes deeply, build friendship bonds, demonstrate altruism and self-sacrifice, mourn the dead, and so on.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2013, 11:09:09 AM »
I saw this video on facebook awhile back.
Dog Risks Life to Save Another Dog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgjyhKN_35g
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 11:28:41 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2013, 11:29:36 AM »
It is true. The more we learn about animals and animal behaviour, the more we understand that they feel emotions, sometimes deeply, build friendship bonds, demonstrate altruism and self-sacrifice, mourn the dead, and so on.

How do we know they feel emotions in the way we define emotions?

Offline mike

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2013, 11:31:31 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2013, 11:33:41 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

Yes, ignoring is not very newsworthy.  Though you should pay attention when there are bear attacks or mountain lion attacks in your area.  Depends where you are of course.

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2013, 11:36:39 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2013, 11:45:26 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2013, 11:50:46 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.

You seem to be adding conditions.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2013, 11:54:11 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

No one is suggesting that all animals are "saints" or anything. But they certainly aren't just emotionless commodities.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »
I've heard about dozens of cases when animals rescued other animals or humans.

As opposed to the billions of times they either ignored or ate that animal or human that needs saving.

Never heard about such a case.

You've never heard of people being eaten by animals?

A detailed, news-covered story about an animal attacking a human that had been in some dangerous situation eaten by an animal that seized the opportunity? No.

You seem to be adding conditions.

I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2013, 12:01:02 PM »
It is true. The more we learn about animals and animal behaviour, the more we understand that they feel emotions, sometimes deeply, build friendship bonds, demonstrate altruism and self-sacrifice, mourn the dead, and so on.

How do we know they feel emotions in the way we define emotions?

There is no way that we can know that exactly. But I don't think it takes a very thorough examination of recent books and studies on zoology or animal behaviour to see that some of them are capable of experiencing emotions that appear to be very much like those we experience.

Maybe try exploring some of these titles if you are interested:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Emotional-Lives-Animals-Scientist/dp/1577316290/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
http://www.amazon.com/When-Elephants-Weep-Emotional-Animals/dp/0385314280/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357919947&sr=1-1&keywords=when+elephants+weep+the+emotional+lives+of+animals

EDIT: Decided not to open different can of worms here...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:03:43 PM by stavros_388 »
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2013, 12:03:19 PM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2013, 12:06:21 PM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death. After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2013, 12:28:44 PM »
Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death.

They do actually.  I've seen it many times.  Among my pets even.  Cats and dogs.  As I mentioned above, cats commit infanticide (or kittenicide, if you wish) to protect their alpha status.  Territorial disputes can and do turn ugly.  We've had dogs once that when the other one came as a puppy, the older one was really mean to him.  The puppy grew up to be a bigger dog (they were mongrels so we don't know if what breed they are and how big they will get) and every opportunity he had he would viciously attack the other dog.  These are well fed house dogs, not feral, fighting for survival dogs.  The only reason the other dog didn't die was because we intervened.  But he was never the same, obviously physical trauma from the numerous attacks.  We literally had to create a wall between our front and back yards to keep them apart until we found someone to take the other dog.

After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.

As noted above, that is completely not true.  Stop watching animal planet which is run by the PETA types who try to convince us that animals are better than us.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2013, 12:44:20 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.
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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2013, 12:52:26 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2013, 12:57:58 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.

I've never had the privilege of enjoying an elephant's company. Perhaps one day! Every elephant I've met has seemed really nice, though.  ;D
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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2013, 12:59:30 PM »
I LOVE Animal Planet.   :)

Nat Geo Wild is great too.

My favorite program on Animal Planet is Big Cat Diaries :) I also like their docs on elephants. Cats and elephants are two of my favorite animals! I think God gave me a special love for them, because I love their company.

I've never had the privilege of enjoying an elephant's company. Perhaps one day! Every elephant I've met has seemed really nice, though.  ;D

Haha! Well, I've never met an elephant in the wild, but I got to pet an elephant at the zoo once.  :D They are awesome and one day I shall ride one! hehe.
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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2013, 01:15:53 PM »
Choy, I'm not sure you understand what an emotion is.
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2013, 02:26:21 PM »
Choy, I'm not sure you understand what an emotion is.

Of course I do.

Do you know that if you separate mother cats from their kittens for about a week, they completely forget about their kittens and lose their maternal instinct?  So much for "emotional attachment".  Even if they walk past their kittens after that week, they won't even acknowledge them.  So much for intellect.

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2013, 02:48:51 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

Even pugs? My pug wouldn't hate you. She is incapable of hate.  :angel:
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2013, 03:01:32 PM »
exotic shorthairs and persians are the coolest cats ever! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzyObWRHSrw
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 03:02:24 PM by Eastern Mind »
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Offline choy

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2013, 03:07:09 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

Same here.  We've owned dogs but they were never "mine".

Offline biro

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2013, 07:58:31 PM »
I hope there'll be cats. Not dogs, though. I hate dogs and they hate me.

I'm sorry.

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2013, 08:25:55 PM »
There is this park I like to go to ever so often, to walk and act like I'm being healthy. Near it is this cemetary with a path that some people like to walk up, because it has windy paths and steep hills...deer like to hang out up there, behind the hills, so I avoid that part when I am walking through it. But this day, I guess the deer decided to chill on the other side. I didn't even see them...well, until...you'll see...

One day I was taking a walk on the path through the city cemetery.  I'm walking along, and I hear this grunt. "What is that?" So I turn around, and...this doe is walking menacingly towards me, snorting at me. "Oh crap, her babies must be nearby and she thinks I will hurt them."


Anyhow, I'm about ready to wet my pants when suddenly, this goose...and I swear I'm not making this up...this goose just flies between us and starts honking at the doe, and flapping its wings! I'm just standing there dumbfounded at the whole thing, and the doe backs up and trots away. After a few seconds, the goose waddles away, before flying off back to the park (there is a fishing pond at the park that geese and ducks hang out in).

Aaaaaannnnnd that's how a random goose saved my butt from being trampled.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2013, 08:48:47 PM »
I hope there'll be hot dogs and cataphatic theology in heaven.
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2013, 11:16:57 PM »
Attention Animal Lovers:

Here's a nice little spread I discovered today with 14 examples of animals exhibiting human-like emotions...........

"Animals are capable of so much more compassion, love, bravery, and ingenuity than most people realize. Here are 14 incredible stories that reveal their hidden depths."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/stories-that-prove-animals-have-souls


*Please disregard the title of the article if you wish, as I am not trying to make that argument here.
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Offline alanscott

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Re: After the death of animails
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2013, 11:55:15 AM »
I've also seen that humans ate other humans, murdered children and preagnant women. Does it mean humans are emotionless too?

Don't we call those who do that "animals"?

Animals expect from hunting do not fight to death. After a while the weaker one accepts its defeat, lies on the ground and surrenders. The victorious one lets it go. Only humans execute beaten up opponents.

While it does not indicate animals don’t have emotions it happens constantly in the animal kingdom. Some species kill their young as form of natural selection, some times an animal will kill off a rival alpha male, and at times there are territorial killings. Usually though as you mentioned supremacy fights and territorial fights are not till death.  Chimps can become insanely violent. It is well documented they will kill for no other apparent reason than what appears to be an anger management issue. There have been other cases of chimpanzee tribes that basically perform a premeditated organized commando type attack on neighboring tribes. This has happened in areas where there is not an apparent territorial or food source issue. There seems to be no other reasoning other than a tendency toward violence and ‘murder’. In some cases the killings are down right horrid including apparent torture prior to death and genital dismemberment. Most humans killed by animals seem to be motivated by protecting their young, defense, or see humans as a food source. Chimps are the exception to that rule as well. NOT a good idea for a pet! Going 'ape #%#@' is a phrase that has been coined for a reason!  

Again, none of this is evidence that animals do not have emotion, and perhaps in the case of chimpanzees it very well might indicate they do.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:56:52 AM by alanscott »
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