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Author Topic: The whole thing falls apart! Accepting Criticism  (Read 4389 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kolodziej
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« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2013, 07:12:39 PM »

Why base your premise on the Western Rite? Could be European village Orthodoxy.
Well that makes things a lot simpler. I may be repeating the points of other posters, and I am not myself Orthodox, but I will try to explain once more:

The basic problem from the Orthodox viewpoint is that all forms of Christianity that developed in the West, whether Roman Catholic or Protestant, are more or less distorted and no longer true Christianity, while Orthodoxy is the true Christianity found in the Church of all times. So I believe it has been said before, but I will make it clearer: There is no "Eastern" Christianity, only the true Orthodox Christianity that has either disappeared in the West, or never before existed in the West. The form of liturgy (Divine Liturgy, Western Rite, etc) is essentially irrelevant to the discussion, except that for whatever reason, 90+% of Orthodox parishes use the same liturgy with different small variations.

As an aside, the reason there is an Orthodox Church of America is that a Roman Catholic archbishop had the exact same thinking as you do, so he forbade Fr. Alexis Toth from setting up Byzantine (that is, Eastern) Catholic parishes in his diocese because the West was Latin, period. Rather than accept that he and his flock could become Roman Rite Catholics and give up the rites they had used for centuries, he broke away and became Orthodox, and eventually a saint in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2013, 09:02:49 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.
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« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2013, 09:31:28 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

There are many "Western" parishes where I could find the same problem. What's your point? Fortunately there are also many Orthodox parishes that aren't like this at all.
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« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2013, 09:33:48 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?

I'm just "chatting for fun" via the internet - not starting a official dialogue.

It's not chatting, fun or otherwise, if you're really just talking to yourself.
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« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2013, 09:45:12 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.

Yes, the real Jesus.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:47:35 PM by WPM » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2013, 09:49:46 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.

Yes, the real Jesus.

Who was not a Muslim. Basically, you have no point.
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2013, 11:06:47 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 11:07:10 PM by WPM » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2013, 11:18:29 PM »

What do you mean?
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2013, 11:29:00 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong WPM, but are you saying that the Orthodox churches in America should be of Arab decent if they claim to be the one true church of Christ?
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« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 

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« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2013, 01:18:33 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 01:22:02 AM by simplygermain » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2013, 01:20:49 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong WPM, but are you saying that the Orthodox churches in America should be of Arab decent if they claim to be the one true church of Christ?
I think you're reading a little too much into what WPM is saying. His thoughts are all over the place on this thread. I will nominate you for Man of the Year, however, if you can get a coherent question and/or answer out of this thread. Smiley

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« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2013, 01:47:21 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

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« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:22 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

ROCOR and the Antiochians have Western Rite Vicarates in the USA.  ROCOR has a good number of Western Rite parishes under the direction of a Bishop for the Eastern Diocese.  A Bishop for the Antiochians oversees their Western Rite Vicarate.  Both use "Orthodoxized" versions of Sarum Rite, Gallic Rite, etc.  The purpose is for RCs and Anglicans to become Orthodox by using "pre-Schism" rites.
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« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2013, 01:53:28 AM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh
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« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2013, 01:56:51 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.
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« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2013, 02:06:45 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

ROCOR and the Antiochians have Western Rite Vicarates in the USA.  ROCOR has a good number of Western Rite parishes under the direction of a Bishop for the Eastern Diocese.  A Bishop for the Antiochians oversees their Western Rite Vicarate.  Both use "Orthodoxized" versions of Sarum Rite, Gallic Rite, etc.  The purpose is for RCs and Anglicans to become Orthodox by using "pre-Schism" rites.

Thank you. 

Not sure if I've attended one of those or not.  I guess I would notice when it deviates from Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Do you happen to know if Elder Sophrony used a Western Rite? 
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« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2013, 03:14:36 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.

I'm all for the use of Western Rite liturgies, since they have proven to be a good tool towards catching fish, but in America we have two contending Patriarchates which can lay claim to the privelege of being the Mother church. That said, only one is friendly to the use of multiple rites (ROCOR) Thankfully ROCOR is joined now with MP and supports the Autocephaly of the OCA.

I look at  the American Antiochian church as an asset BUT... It complicates the issue of unification. It has a rich history in America and brings validity to the OCA and the issue of the need for unity. But will the Bishops cooperate when the time comes to relinquish control and step down from their lofty places?

It seems there is an unwritten rule amongst the OCA clergy that it can not support its own Western rite. I think this is good insofar as everyone maintains the walk towards one United North American Orthodox synod and eventual patriarchate.

But I find that there are many amongst the Greek clergy that seem to feel that there should only be one celebrated liturgy. It's a shame.

You know, my conversion was through a Gallican Western Rite orthodox church (in schism) and I had no previous experience with liturgy other than a childhood visit to a friend's Catholic mass. So I'm sympathetic to the cause and could see early on that it is Orthodox to use multiple liturgies, specifically regionally. I wish I could see what it would look like in a perfect thriving America of the future. It is at least exciting to be in the era of formation on this continent. I think we can see some of this new expression emerging.
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« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2013, 11:37:53 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.

I'm all for the use of Western Rite liturgies, since they have proven to be a good tool towards catching fish, but in America we have two contending Patriarchates which can lay claim to the privelege of being the Mother church. That said, only one is friendly to the use of multiple rites (ROCOR) Thankfully ROCOR is joined now with MP and supports the Autocephaly of the OCA.

I look at  the American Antiochian church as an asset BUT... It complicates the issue of unification. It has a rich history in America and brings validity to the OCA and the issue of the need for unity. But will the Bishops cooperate when the time comes to relinquish control and step down from their lofty places?

It seems there is an unwritten rule amongst the OCA clergy that it can not support its own Western rite. I think this is good insofar as everyone maintains the walk towards one United North American Orthodox synod and eventual patriarchate.

But I find that there are many amongst the Greek clergy that seem to feel that there should only be one celebrated liturgy. It's a shame.

You know, my conversion was through a Gallican Western Rite orthodox church (in schism) and I had no previous experience with liturgy other than a childhood visit to a friend's Catholic mass. So I'm sympathetic to the cause and could see early on that it is Orthodox to use multiple liturgies, specifically regionally. I wish I could see what it would look like in a perfect thriving America of the future. It is at least exciting to be in the era of formation on this continent. I think we can see some of this new expression emerging.

At least, in that case, no one could accuse us of being 'organized religion'. 

Your view of ROCOR is interesting.  Locally, I had this completely different view of ROCOR being very strict compared to Greeks, and OCA seeming like they were dabbling in Roman Catholicism.  The ROCOR I've experienced insists more on Russian being used, even of late by the people in Alaska, who really should have the Liturgy in their own language, not Church Slavonic. 

The Greeks seem more a mix between culture clubs with organs and pews and English is Spoken Here, but their missions seem to reach out to everyone. 

Maybe there are just more native Russian speakers at this point than native born Greeks where I live. 

As for the Byzantine chant, that was a developed taste, and prefer that or Znamenny or plainchant or Georgian over anything else.  I also prefer the monastic style without all the ornamentation and ostentation.   But I'll still pray with any choir as best I can.  I also think it is wonderful that people are working to preserve older forms of chant styles. 

Then there is St. Nicholas of Myra Russian Orthodox church in Amsterdam where the Nave almost looks like a stripped down Baptist church.  I know what a Baptist church looks like inside because I had to go in to do some work in one once.   I've never attended a service there.

Catholic churches look odd to me because there are no iconostasis and they've turned the altar around and just have a table sitting out in the middle of nowhere.  That's what it looks like to me anyway.  Very strange.  Someone said they turned it around some years ago.

Seems like different aspects of the Church draw people, but really the main thing is for a person to want to draw closer to Christ through the Orthodox Sacraments.  It's my understanding that there is a definite sequence of events, preparatory prayers, etc. that take place before and during them. 

Maybe certain trappings will draw them, but until they recognize that Christ is the ultimate goal, there really is no point to any of it.  And anyone who stands in church for hours upon hours year after year will probably learn how wonderful icons are for that wandering attention span.
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« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2013, 01:19:54 PM »

Well, ROCOR has a Western rite which includes at least three Liturgies if I am not mistaken, allowing for the Gallican, Old Latin and Mozarabic. I know priests using two of these within ROCOR. Also ROCOR has been supportive of the OCA when others were not. I like it that their bishop is bi-ritual.
Yes, there are ethnic Russian/Old Slavonic parishes that wish to remain that way. I don't really have a problem with ethnic parishes, but see them as temporary since those ethnic parishes will naturally close or change to English as new generations take up the cross.

The Greek church, while I love them and love the rich tradition, I have to agree on most parts with you. For the most part it is a culture club. But while they have a strongly known presence as THE Orthodox, only spend like 3% of their funds on missionary effort. After seeing what the two Northwest Greek Festivals bring in annually, it is a shame to know that so little is spent on missionary effort. At least on the west coast, it is a commonly known fact that "the Greeks have the money".

The Serbs here in the northwest are a whole different ball of wax. Amazingly pious. Tything (even the ones who don't come on Sunday.) Ethnic parishes keep to themselves while the convert parishes are building growth, mission efforts and all on a shoe-string budget with little to no help from their diocese. The bishop over here is young and dynamic and very personally involved with his parishes even though his diocese is the largest in the whole church. The missions are closely connected to Platina monastery and therefore have the spiritual connection needed to thrive.

I don't worry too much about what the RCC is doing and yes they took down the rood screen and serve from the other side of the altar like some theatrical performance instead of "on behalf of all and for all".

I agree with you that it is Christ who is the focal point, not the pomp and grandeur of our church, though one could hardly call my parish grand, just a wooden building on some beautiful wooded acreage with a very basic iconostasis. We are blessed. I only wish our church could get its act together and build a monastery here in Oregon. We need it badly.
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« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2013, 01:33:56 PM »

The Greek church, while I love them and love the rich tradition, I have to agree on most parts with you. For the most part it is a culture club. But while they have a strongly known presence as THE Orthodox, only spend like 3% of their funds on missionary effort. After seeing what the two Northwest Greek Festivals bring in annually, it is a shame to know that so little is spent on missionary effort. At least on the west coast, it is a commonly known fact that "the Greeks have the money".
The Greek church that we go to here in Wyoming operates on a loss every year. Money from Greek festivals is supposed to be used for things like missionary efforts, charity, helping the GOYA with trips, etc., but we have to use it for our operating costs every year just to make ends meet. Luckily, we're still able to donate 10% of the revenue to local charities. Tithing is just much lower than it should be.
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« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2013, 02:39:12 PM »

Wow!
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« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2013, 03:24:49 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

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« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2013, 03:26:33 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...


Someone needs a map and a history lesson.
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« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.



What does the OCA have to do with the Middle East?
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« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2013, 03:48:36 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.



What does the OCA have to do with the Middle East?

Not anything.
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« Reply #116 on: January 10, 2013, 04:02:59 PM »

Someone needs a map and a history lesson.

Paging ialmisry.
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« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2013, 04:10:12 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh
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« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2013, 04:31:49 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.
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« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2013, 04:53:52 PM »

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

There are nearly 100 OCA parishes/missions listed for Alaska. Is that non-northeastern enough for you?  Grin
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« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2013, 04:54:38 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.

He didn't know you needed a treatise on the topic  police
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« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2013, 05:05:40 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2013, 06:37:33 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
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« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2013, 06:56:21 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
Do you mean that priests at Western-rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese aren't allowed to catechize and chrismate individuals who want to become Orthodox? I've never heard that before.
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« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2013, 08:21:01 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.

He/She might get bored and go away quietly.   angel
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« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2013, 10:12:16 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
Do you mean that priests at Western-rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese aren't allowed to catechize and chrismate individuals who want to become Orthodox? I've never heard that before.

No! I mean that only whole, stable groups/parishes were/are allowed to enter into the Vicariate as Western Rite, and anyone desiring to worship as Western Rite must do so through an established parish. There are no individuals "blessed" to the Western Rite.
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« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2013, 11:11:18 PM »

There are also no individuals to do Eastern Rite on their own...
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« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2013, 11:38:30 PM »

I remembered and found this relevant quote from Prof. H.A. Hodges:

The Orthodox Faith must be capable of expression in terms of the life and thought of western peoples . . .
Western Orthodoxy cannot be constituted merely by planting colonies of Orthodox people from the East in
Western countries . . . True western Orthodoxy is to be found by bodies of western people, members of western
nations, coming with all their western background, their western habits and traditions, into the circle
of the Orthodox Faith. Then we should have an Orthodoxy which was really western because its memory
was western – a memory of the Christian history of the West, not as the West now remembers it, but purged
and set in perspective by the Orthodox Faith.

Anglicanism and Orthodoxy, p. 52ff.
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