The whole thing falls apart! Accepting Criticism

[michigander]

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

[biro]

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

I work for a hospital chain. We don't group people by culture.

[WPM]

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

Forgive me while I go and work on a response for a few hours.

[Shanghaiski]

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

And what, pray tell, is actual practice?

This whole thread is gadflyry at its best.

Did someone say....

[Shanghaiski]

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.

No. It's just the conversation in WPM's head to which we're not privy.

[WPM]

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

I can't think of anything to say. I'll try again next time

[NicholasMyra]

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?

[WPM]

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?

Yes, that's the ethnic Jesus from the middle eastern part of the world.

[NicholasMyra]

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?

Yes, that's the ethnic Jesus from the middle eastern part of the world.

There is no non-ethnic Jesus. He's still human and has the same humanity, but glorified.

[WPM]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

[Deborah]

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

[NicholasMyra]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

[WPM]

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

...

[WPM]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know 

[Sleeper]

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English.

It's not comparable at all. English is more intelligible to me than Slavonic or Greek because I am an Anglophone. That does not mean the Western Rite is more intelligible to me than the Eastern rite. There are many Americans, like me, who were never raised with a form of the Christian religion. There are many more Americans who were raised with Christianity for which the high masses of the Anglicans and RC's is equally foreign as the Eastern rite. I am personally more comfortable with Eastern Rite and many American Orthodox feel the same way.  

Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.

It was the priest quoted above who suggested that only the Latin mass gives full access to "authentic life", "sanity", etc. I'm glad you would agree though that such sentiments are ludicrous. As for what is more "comprehensible to Americans," that point has been well-addressed already. Which Americans?

Imagine how strange the liturgy- any form of it- would appear to someone raised with the indigenous religions in places like China or Alaska, then get back to me about how incomprehensible the Eastern rite should be to us Americans. A lot of Americans think Indian food is really weird at first, but after a few tries it becomes their favorite food.

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about.

[LBK]

Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle.

A look at an orthodox menaion for the month of December will show otherwise. 

[michigander]

BTW, the priest that you're quoting catechized and chrismated me, and married my wife and me. Interestingly, for all his admiration of and attachment to the Western rite, he serves at an Eastern rite parish.

[Shanghaiski]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

A fish.

[Shanghaiski]

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

...

Ooooo. I LOVE theatre of the absurd.

[Nephi]

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about.

As another minimally liturgical ex-Protestant and while I would've found both the Western and Eastern rites to have been equally daunting and unfamiliar, the Western rites seem more "close" in terms of cultural heritage than the Eastern rites do. I'm not sure how to describe it myself, but I feel like I'm honestly ignoring a large part of my Western (Orthodox) heritage by immersing myself solely into the Eastern rite's life in all its forms.

[WPM]

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

Philosophical things and concepts that fit in neat categories.

[Sleeper]

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about.

As another minimally liturgical ex-Protestant and while I would've found both the Western and Eastern rites to have been equally daunting and unfamiliar, the Western rites seem more "close" in terms of cultural heritage than the Eastern rites do. I'm not sure how to describe it myself, but I feel like I'm honestly ignoring a large part of my Western (Orthodox) heritage by immersing myself solely into the Eastern rite's life in all its forms.

Having gotten my bearings now, in a liturgical setting, I feel the same way (even though that setting is the Western Rite). I think that's what I find compelling about Fr. Winfrey's (albeit, sometimes unclear) thoughts. There is something deep in my bones, by the sheer fact of me being a Westerner, that resonates with the Western Rite. My first Western Rite Mass was me balancing three different books in my hands trying to follow along, and I barely understood anything that was happening, but all I wanted to do was go back and experience it all over again. The chant, the vestments, the altar, the prayers, the gestures, all of it felt like I was remembering something I'd forgotten, even though I'd had no experience with liturgy at all.

As inquirers tend to do, I visited other Orthodox parishes, all Eastern Rite, and though I thought they were beautiful, it just wasn't the same for me. Some of what Fr. Winfrey says puts into words what I was experiencing, and what I think many (though certainly not all) Westerners have the potential of experiencing when the riches of the Western Rite are expressed and nurtured within an Orthodox context once again.

[NicholasMyra]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know 

Then why did you bring it up?

[simplygermain]

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

Philosophical things and concepts that fit in neat categories.

Ok! Sooooo much clearer now! Wow! Glad we all took the time to get to the bottom of this! Hold on, I think I left more sarcasm in another thread. Perhaps I left it where I lost my mind while trying to figure this one out! (Scratching the hole in my head where my brains oozed out)

[WPM]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know 

Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.

[Iconodule]

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know 

Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.

Fresh kibbles malingering in surgeon days permeate silent winks?

[Iconodule]

Looking over WPM's posting history, it seems he has a knack for saying strange things and then just letting them... hang there. Case in point...

[WPM]

No, I don't think the above is accurate. I'm talking in terms of basic chat.

Just because I don't have eloquent speech and a fancy treatise.

[Iconodule]

No, I don't think the above is accurate. I'm talking in terms of basic chat.

Just because I don't have eloquent speech and a fancy treatise.

It's got nothing to do with eloquence. It's about maintaining a basic flow of logical thoughts. For example, can you honestly expect anyone to look at the below exchange, and come away with the impression that you have any point to make? When someone asks you what you are talking about, it's not a good sign if your answer begins with "Probably..."

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)

What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know 

Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.

[WPM]

When someone asks you what you are talking about

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.

[Nephi]

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.

Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.

[biro]

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

I think he meant what he said. It was pretty clear.

[WPM]

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.

Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.

By "us" do you mean us vs. them?..

[Iconodule]

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.

Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.

By "us" do you mean us vs. them?..

By "them" do you mean the giant mutant killer ants?

[Asteriktos]

When someone asks you what you are talking about

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.

That's how I became Orthodox 

[WPM]

What do you mean?

Why do people feel the need to "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

[Iconodule]

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?

[biro]

What do you mean?

Why do people feel the need to "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

I guess this is one of those things that will never be solved. Chocolate is different from vanilla. Dogs are not cats. I'm not good at poker.

It's a shame, but sometimes we just have to turn away from things that will never work. You can't get blood out of a stone. 

[Asteriktos]

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

[WPM]

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?

I'm just "chatting for fun" via the internet - not starting a official dialogue.

[biro]

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

[Asteriktos]

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

I'm sorry that that's been your experience, Biro, and I don't doubt that you are describing it accurately. All I can say is that I've been in a dozen parishes and never really felt alienated or made to feel like an outsider. Some parishes were more welcoming than others, of course. But again, I'm sorry that your experiences have been different than my positive ones.

[biro]

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

I'm sorry that that's been your experience, Biro, and I don't doubt that you are describing it accurately. All I can say is that I've been in a dozen parishes and never really felt alienated or made to feel like an outsider. Some parishes were more welcoming than others, of course. But again, I'm sorry that your experiences have been different than my positive ones.

Thank you. I'm sorry I dragged you into this.  Hopefully, some good will come out of it.

[Shanghaiski]

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

How do they do this?

[WPM]

Why base your premise on the Western Rite? Could be European village Orthodoxy.

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