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Author Topic: The whole thing falls apart! Accepting Criticism  (Read 4259 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 08, 2013, 12:36:24 AM »

The whole thing falls apart when you analyze its context.

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »

The whole thing falls apart when you analyze its context.

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
One person's "East" is another person's "West".
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 12:40:26 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 03:17:17 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 03:31:39 AM »

When there is an Orthodox American Church which is developing and  maturing into its own form and style of liturgical culture while being nurtured by a patriarchate toward a goal of unifying the North American diaspora, I'll be in it...
Oh, wait! Yep. Did that. Grin
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 04:00:52 AM »

You mean re-import? St. Athanasius the Apostolic in Treves, the martyrs of Thebes venerated in Switzerland for centuries, St. Arsenius in Egypt, Sts. Maximus and Domatius, the Orthodox Roman bishops, etc. are all parts of Western Christian history. Orthodoxy would (presumably) still be the faith of the West had Rome not gone off the rails, and later others even more so in an attempt to reform her. It just seems weird or imported because the Orthodox roots of Christianity in many places have been obscured by subsequent events.
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 05:07:15 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 05:15:47 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

James

Well, obviously Greek, Russian, and other Orthodox immigrants are who they are and I don't mean to suggest they should give up the Byzantine Rite. Heck, there were Byzantine parishes in Rome before the schism, and Latin parishes in Constantinople. That's not a problem.

But culturally, the Western Rite is the patrimony of Western Europe and, at least to some extent, therefore of America. That's why I think it should be the normal thing to see here, as Orthodoxy grows to encompass more Western converts and, God willing, Western cradle Orthodox Christians and the bulk of the Orthodox cease to be immigrants.

I am not by any means suggesting we should close Byzantine churches, now or later. And perhaps I spoke imprecisely when I referenced the Western Rite encompassing "everyone." But I'd like it to be the "normal" thing, and the Byzantine Rite the perfectly valid exception, in the West.
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 05:32:41 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

James

Well, obviously Greek, Russian, and other Orthodox immigrants are who they are and I don't mean to suggest they should give up the Byzantine Rite. Heck, there were Byzantine parishes in Rome before the schism, and Latin parishes in Constantinople. That's not a problem.

But culturally, the Western Rite is the patrimony of Western Europe and, at least to some extent, therefore of America. That's why I think it should be the normal thing to see here, as Orthodoxy grows to encompass more Western converts and, God willing, Western cradle Orthodox Christians and the bulk of the Orthodox cease to be immigrants.

I am not by any means suggesting we should close Byzantine churches, now or later. And perhaps I spoke imprecisely when I referenced the Western Rite encompassing "everyone." But I'd like it to be the "normal" thing, and the Byzantine Rite the perfectly valid exception, in the West.

This may be one day possible in the US (though I doubt that many western born Orthodox of eastern descent who've grown up in Byzantine rite parishes are ever likely to want to move to the western rite) because you do actually seem to have a large number of converts there. Here in western Europe we simply don't. Even if I add to my list of those who I've met over the years all the ones I've come across on the internet or heard of from others but never met, I think I'd struggle to come up with a list of 20 in the whole UK. Given that that's the case (others may know of more but it's clearly a very small minority) I genuinely can't see the western rite ever becoming the Orthodox norm here. Maybe if the high church Anglicans who are disaffected with that communion were to come over in large numbers, but they almost always seem to end up heading for Rome - it's easier after all.

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 08:54:20 AM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

False dichotomy. Much of what is deemed as "Eastern" used to be "Western". Here is how a Roman Catholic priest explains the issue.
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 09:37:01 AM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

False dichotomy. Much of what is deemed as "Eastern" used to be "Western".

Exactly. Not only is the East/ West dichotomy exaggerated, the little of it that remains valid is quickly fading away with globalization.

Christianity has been transplanted to numerous places around the world where not only its outer forms but its entire doctrine was alien to the indigenous religious culture. Nonetheless it has flourished.

As for Western Rite, it's a nice idea but it will likely never be more than a niche and its supposed importance will diminish as the East/ West dichotomy drifts further into irrelevance.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:29 AM »

As for Western Rite, it's a nice idea but it will likely never be more than a niche and its supposed importance will diminish as the East/ West dichotomy drifts further into irrelevance.

That could happen within US and other countries which are based on immigration but I think things like "East" and "West" will remain somewhat relevant in more stable societies. Thus there will be need for WR despite globalization. I don't think Byzantine rite or K-pop will ever become mainstream phenomenon in my country.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 10:47:40 AM »

Fr. Guy Winfrey had some good things to say on this topic:

With immigration from Eastern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean there has been a large influx of a different regional culture. It is still Christian culture for it holds to the universal pattern as established in the early Church and the Scriptures, but it has as its base a different set of assumptions and resolutions. It's world view is different. Even here the local variations can create tension (i.e., between the Greeks and the Russians, etc.).

But what happens when the later regional mind comes into immediate contact with an established regional culture? They don't seem to mix and create something new. They tend to polarize against one another. They also insist on the conformity of any "converts" into their own regional culture. In the long run the later culture dies--unless it has an incredibly large number--because by the third generation many of its children are gone. The only hope for a long lasting second culture, is that it and not the founding culture adapt to new circumstances. This is true because all of the externals of the civilization and locality are all ready set and are not up for grabs. If this doesn't happen, then the new group becomes increasingly disconnected with the real needs and concerns of those around, becoming nothing more than ethnic enclaves and ghettos with no real formative power.

This is what I think is under the hood of the experience of Orthodoxy in this country. Its culture has been strongly established within its Byzantine history (partly because of the abuse of the Ottoman Turks and the Communists) and is so rigid as to be set in stone. Recovering a "more Orthodox" mind is done by becoming more Greek or whatever. The monasteries of Fr. Ephraim spring to mind. But in parishes there is a disconnect. Children go to the Episcopal Church, or the Roman Catholic Church or whatever and it is not seen as a problem to many families. The children cannot connect to the attendant culture of the parent's parish because the world they live in is not the old country. The local life they have cannot support the local manifestations of a village ten-thousand miles away.

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture. There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live. Authentic life demands it. Sanity demands it. A healthy integrated life demands it. Oremus. (Let us pray.)


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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 11:04:27 AM »

I am of Western descent, but I love the Byzantine liturgy--I don't think I would like the Western Rite.  I am perfectly content with my Byzantine liturgy in English.  I am not interested in any other liturgy.  If this happens, I might have to learn Russian and move there.  I would not be willing to give up my Byzantine liturgy.  I think the Church would find a lot of rebellion from the laypeople in the US and other places if they tried to force Western Rite on us.

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 11:11:06 AM »

A few points:

--I support the Western rite.

--The Byzantine and Russian rites are different than most people in [American] culture are used to, but they're really not that bizarre to outsiders (at least those who have some exposure to liturgy -- Baptists feel just as lost in Catholic churches the first time, too).

--The idea of patrimony is quickly becoming one of yesteryear. Church attendance in most of western Europe is nil. The United States will be a completely post-Christian culture in another decade, and those who remain will be low church Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Liturgy and devotion of any stripe will be outside most people's frame of reference.

--Consider this point the reiteration of the previous posters' points about globalization.
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 02:03:01 PM »

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture.

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Quote
There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live.

Translation: The reality of cultural diffusion in this country is too complex for me to address head-on without destroying my simplistic ideas about "European culture," so I'll just mystify you with gobbledygook about "authentic life" and that je ne sais quoi that we all just know flows in the blood of every real American.
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 02:26:42 PM »

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Poppycock. The difference between pagan revivalism and Western liturgical revivalism is simple: Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth. The old paganisms were false; the Western Rite is not false. There is no comparison between the two.

The liturgical and devotional traditions of the West developed because they spoke to the Western mind and soul, just as comparable traditions developed in the East. Wanting that back is not "contemptible," though it may be "ethnicism" (whatever that is.)
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 02:34:29 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 03:07:43 PM »

A few comments which add to Agabus and Iconodule's position...

Firstly I think some of the posters here have forgotten two major points of fact.

Historically, Christianity has always had multiple liturgies. From East to West throughout history there has been hundreds. This has diminished significantly in the last 1000 years, but so has Orthodoxy (to Roman Catholicism as it came to be known and the separation became a great divide) which has found tribalism and ethnocentrism to become the normal way to protect culture and the faith. The backlash of this being that the idea of allowing certain other liturgical rites to flourish is seen as a threat to what is now considered Eastern culture. St John Maximovitch discovered this as he attempted to establish the Orthodox Western Rite in Europe.

Globalism is neither good nor bad. It just is. In fact, it may be an environment which encourages redevelopment of multiple liturgical rites. But lest we forget that we should not just dig up the past like some have done, as if liturgy was some historical theatrical performance.

The liturgical arts are slowly developing in this new world just as they have in Russia ( which was at one time simply accepting an immigrant religious culture along with Christianity as well) and other places as well. But Russia has had 1000 years to develop this and within the US the scene is much more complicated due to the quibbling between Moscow and the Greeks about who came first [chicken or egg?].

I am not for an Eastern rite or a Western Rite. I see no division. It is Orthodox Christianity. These are merely terms which are born as ways to differentiate the two styles, post schism. But within them, there are myriad of new seeds of expression of liturgical worship which are begging to develop further if only given the chance.

I think we need to begin looking at things from this broader perspective, remembering that the liturgy which St. John Cassian celebrated was complimentary to that which St. Cyril, St. Symeon the Stylite, St. Gregory and many, many more celebrated. It is one faith.

I do not wholeheartedly agree that Christianity is dying in the world. In my own life I see it every day more clearly that progressive, fake altruism that casts aside Christianity while it accepts false religions. But this is the faith of the first century and the last. The faith that the gates of Hades will not prevail against. We will be here when, as Johnny Cash said, "The Man comes around".

Until then, we have much work to do. Why should we see division when we see these expressions of worship? I find no convincing argument.






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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 03:16:53 PM »

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture.

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Quote
There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live.

Translation: The reality of cultural diffusion in this country is too complex for me to address head-on without destroying my simplistic ideas about "European culture," so I'll just mystify you with gobbledygook about "authentic life" and that je ne sais quoi that we all just know flows in the blood of every real American.

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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English. Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 04:18:56 PM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

I'm speaking of why do you have the Eastern liturgy in a Western context?...
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 04:25:32 PM »

I think you're trying to import Eastern Christianity into a Western world.  



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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 04:30:43 PM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

I'm speaking of why do you have the Eastern liturgy in a Western context?...

The Catholic, Anglican, and Western-rite Orthodox services are no more or less "foreign" to my ears than an "Eastern" liturgy upon first hearing them. But the Orthodox one sure does sound more beautiful to me. Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 04:39:54 PM »

I am of Western descent, but I love the Byzantine liturgy--I don't think I would like the Western Rite.  I am perfectly content with my Byzantine liturgy in English.  I am not interested in any other liturgy.  If this happens, I might have to learn Russian and move there.  I would not be willing to give up my Byzantine liturgy.  I think the Church would find a lot of rebellion from the laypeople in the US and other places if they tried to force Western Rite on us.



I think you're trying to import Eastern Christianity into the Western sphere.  
Fixed that for you. Orthodoxy is Christianity.

While the Western Rite is a noble and good project, do not assume that it resonates with all of us who were born in “the west.” My western patrimony was backwoods fundamentalism. The same goes for the vast majority of the region in which I was raised, with a good bit of hillbilly and redneck superstition to boot. Any Orthodoxy is imported, be it Byzantine or Anglo-Latin-Franco-Western.

EDIT: I’ve said this in the past, but it bears repeating. Though I don’t find the WR particularly appealing, if a WR mission started in my town, I would begin attending that week since the nearest ER parish is an hour away (and that one just started a couple of weeks ago). Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of trappings.
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 04:44:03 PM »

The way I see it, people brought Orthodoxy here as a complete package with the Liturgies and Traditions that it already had.  (This  complete package may have included things that were not really of the Church, but the Orthodox faith did come with it.) 

Just as it was brought to the Slavs, it changed from Greek ways,  the services here will slowly change to fit our ways.  There is no need for radical change with two "rites" in one place.  What needs to change will change. 
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 04:49:12 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 04:49:48 PM »

What do you mean?
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 04:50:42 PM »

I think you're overthinking things, WPM. What would you rather have? What, specifically, is your problem?
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2013, 04:52:51 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?


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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 04:57:24 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?




The purveyor of Internet Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2013, 04:57:46 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
If a certain liturgical rite doesn't quite fit our culture, and changes over time in the way that AWR suggested, that does not mean that the religion being practiced in the first place is "fake" or that it isn't true Christianity. The liturgies may or may not change over time to better fit our culture, but what matters throughout the process is the truths that the liturgy is proclaiming and the realities that it is making sacramentally present.

If I have a piece of text that's written in, say, French (which is a language that I don't know), and I have to translate it out of French in order to understand it, it doesn't make the content of that text any more true or false.
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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2013, 04:58:50 PM »

True Christianity=prayer, repentance, almsgiving, fasting, sacraments, forgiveness, following Christ's commandments, communion of saints

What does eastern or western have to do with it?

Frankly, I find the labels eastern and western to be idiotic since most people applying them simply make sweeping generalizations or otherwise don't take into account history.

But I predict we won't get very far discussing this since the accusations are all cryptic one-liners.
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 04:59:35 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?




The purveyor of Internet Orthodoxy.

Who is that and what is "Internet Orthodoxy?"
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« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.
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« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 05:05:25 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.
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« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2013, 05:05:56 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.
And what, pray tell, is actual practice?

This whole thread is gadflyry at its best.
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« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2013, 05:06:16 PM »

It's helpful to use language in ways that make your meaning clear, rather than in ways that confuse and obscure it. We often discuss Orthodoxy on the Internet, but those of us who are Orthodox practice it in Churches and homes and throughout our lives. Our practice is an actual one, and it does not take place on the Internet.
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« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2013, 05:09:13 PM »

It's helpful to use language in ways that make your meaning clear, rather than in ways that confuse and obscure it. We often discuss Orthodoxy on the Internet, but those of us who are Orthodox practice it in Churches and homes and throughout our lives. Our practice is an actual one, and it does not take place on the Internet.
Yes, the way you’re being so cryptic — the OP, that is — sounds like you don’t believe it is possible for someone to convert to anything.
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« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2013, 05:09:44 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)
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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2013, 05:14:09 PM »

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.
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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2013, 05:14:59 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English.

It's not comparable at all. English is more intelligible to me than Slavonic or Greek because I am an Anglophone. That does not mean the Western Rite is more intelligible to me than the Eastern rite. There are many Americans, like me, who were never raised with a form of the Christian religion. There are many more Americans who were raised with Christianity for which the high masses of the Anglicans and RC's is equally foreign as the Eastern rite. I am personally more comfortable with Eastern Rite and many American Orthodox feel the same way.  

Quote
Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.

It was the priest quoted above who suggested that only the Latin mass gives full access to "authentic life", "sanity", etc. I'm glad you would agree though that such sentiments are ludicrous. As for what is more "comprehensible to Americans," that point has been well-addressed already. Which Americans?

Imagine how strange the liturgy- any form of it- would appear to someone raised with the indigenous religions in places like China or Alaska, then get back to me about how incomprehensible the Eastern rite should be to us Americans. A lot of Americans think Indian food is really weird at first, but after a few tries it becomes their favorite food.
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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)
Will you provide a link so we could could possibly maybe get a grasp at that which you are trying to critique?
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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2013, 05:21:52 PM »

I also don't know why people are using the Western Rite as the basis or premise for constructing arguments.
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2013, 05:51:15 PM »

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.

Could be having a different brain or thought-process.
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