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Author Topic: The whole thing falls apart! Accepting Criticism  (Read 3704 times) Average Rating: 0
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WPM
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« on: January 08, 2013, 12:36:24 AM »

The whole thing falls apart when you analyze its context.

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »

The whole thing falls apart when you analyze its context.

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
One person's "East" is another person's "West".
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 12:40:26 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 03:17:17 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 03:31:39 AM »

When there is an Orthodox American Church which is developing and  maturing into its own form and style of liturgical culture while being nurtured by a patriarchate toward a goal of unifying the North American diaspora, I'll be in it...
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 04:00:52 AM »

You mean re-import? St. Athanasius the Apostolic in Treves, the martyrs of Thebes venerated in Switzerland for centuries, St. Arsenius in Egypt, Sts. Maximus and Domatius, the Orthodox Roman bishops, etc. are all parts of Western Christian history. Orthodoxy would (presumably) still be the faith of the West had Rome not gone off the rails, and later others even more so in an attempt to reform her. It just seems weird or imported because the Orthodox roots of Christianity in many places have been obscured by subsequent events.
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 05:07:15 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 05:15:47 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

James

Well, obviously Greek, Russian, and other Orthodox immigrants are who they are and I don't mean to suggest they should give up the Byzantine Rite. Heck, there were Byzantine parishes in Rome before the schism, and Latin parishes in Constantinople. That's not a problem.

But culturally, the Western Rite is the patrimony of Western Europe and, at least to some extent, therefore of America. That's why I think it should be the normal thing to see here, as Orthodoxy grows to encompass more Western converts and, God willing, Western cradle Orthodox Christians and the bulk of the Orthodox cease to be immigrants.

I am not by any means suggesting we should close Byzantine churches, now or later. And perhaps I spoke imprecisely when I referenced the Western Rite encompassing "everyone." But I'd like it to be the "normal" thing, and the Byzantine Rite the perfectly valid exception, in the West.
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 05:32:41 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?

Even if the western rite was large enough I wouldn't join it. That's not because I disagree with the western rite in principle (quite the opposite actually) but because it simply isn't for me. I found my faith in the east whilst living and working in Romania. The Byzantine rite played a not insignificant part in that conversion, so much so that I can't imagine ever feeling happy at a western rite parish even if it were Orthodox. I'd go if it was the only option or on an occasional visit, such as when we visit other parishes for their parish feast, but I would never feel at home there. If that's the case for me, a convert who grew up in western Europe, then I can only imagine how much stronger such feelings would be amongst immigrants from the east, who make up the vast majority of Orthodox over here. I've genuinely hardly ever come across another convert in real life - a couple of priests, one priest's wife and a deacon are the sum total of western converts I have met in over a decade of practising the Orthodox faith in the UK. Why, then, would we want or need the western rite to grow to encompass all? If a parish is made up of converts that want it then they should have it but it certainly shouldn't be seen as right for the rest of us simply because we find ourselves living in the west.

James

Well, obviously Greek, Russian, and other Orthodox immigrants are who they are and I don't mean to suggest they should give up the Byzantine Rite. Heck, there were Byzantine parishes in Rome before the schism, and Latin parishes in Constantinople. That's not a problem.

But culturally, the Western Rite is the patrimony of Western Europe and, at least to some extent, therefore of America. That's why I think it should be the normal thing to see here, as Orthodoxy grows to encompass more Western converts and, God willing, Western cradle Orthodox Christians and the bulk of the Orthodox cease to be immigrants.

I am not by any means suggesting we should close Byzantine churches, now or later. And perhaps I spoke imprecisely when I referenced the Western Rite encompassing "everyone." But I'd like it to be the "normal" thing, and the Byzantine Rite the perfectly valid exception, in the West.

This may be one day possible in the US (though I doubt that many western born Orthodox of eastern descent who've grown up in Byzantine rite parishes are ever likely to want to move to the western rite) because you do actually seem to have a large number of converts there. Here in western Europe we simply don't. Even if I add to my list of those who I've met over the years all the ones I've come across on the internet or heard of from others but never met, I think I'd struggle to come up with a list of 20 in the whole UK. Given that that's the case (others may know of more but it's clearly a very small minority) I genuinely can't see the western rite ever becoming the Orthodox norm here. Maybe if the high church Anglicans who are disaffected with that communion were to come over in large numbers, but they almost always seem to end up heading for Rome - it's easier after all.

James
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 08:54:20 AM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

False dichotomy. Much of what is deemed as "Eastern" used to be "Western". Here is how a Roman Catholic priest explains the issue.
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 09:37:01 AM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...

False dichotomy. Much of what is deemed as "Eastern" used to be "Western".

Exactly. Not only is the East/ West dichotomy exaggerated, the little of it that remains valid is quickly fading away with globalization.

Christianity has been transplanted to numerous places around the world where not only its outer forms but its entire doctrine was alien to the indigenous religious culture. Nonetheless it has flourished.

As for Western Rite, it's a nice idea but it will likely never be more than a niche and its supposed importance will diminish as the East/ West dichotomy drifts further into irrelevance.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:29 AM »

As for Western Rite, it's a nice idea but it will likely never be more than a niche and its supposed importance will diminish as the East/ West dichotomy drifts further into irrelevance.

That could happen within US and other countries which are based on immigration but I think things like "East" and "West" will remain somewhat relevant in more stable societies. Thus there will be need for WR despite globalization. I don't think Byzantine rite or K-pop will ever become mainstream phenomenon in my country.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 10:47:40 AM »

Fr. Guy Winfrey had some good things to say on this topic:

With immigration from Eastern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean there has been a large influx of a different regional culture. It is still Christian culture for it holds to the universal pattern as established in the early Church and the Scriptures, but it has as its base a different set of assumptions and resolutions. It's world view is different. Even here the local variations can create tension (i.e., between the Greeks and the Russians, etc.).

But what happens when the later regional mind comes into immediate contact with an established regional culture? They don't seem to mix and create something new. They tend to polarize against one another. They also insist on the conformity of any "converts" into their own regional culture. In the long run the later culture dies--unless it has an incredibly large number--because by the third generation many of its children are gone. The only hope for a long lasting second culture, is that it and not the founding culture adapt to new circumstances. This is true because all of the externals of the civilization and locality are all ready set and are not up for grabs. If this doesn't happen, then the new group becomes increasingly disconnected with the real needs and concerns of those around, becoming nothing more than ethnic enclaves and ghettos with no real formative power.

This is what I think is under the hood of the experience of Orthodoxy in this country. Its culture has been strongly established within its Byzantine history (partly because of the abuse of the Ottoman Turks and the Communists) and is so rigid as to be set in stone. Recovering a "more Orthodox" mind is done by becoming more Greek or whatever. The monasteries of Fr. Ephraim spring to mind. But in parishes there is a disconnect. Children go to the Episcopal Church, or the Roman Catholic Church or whatever and it is not seen as a problem to many families. The children cannot connect to the attendant culture of the parent's parish because the world they live in is not the old country. The local life they have cannot support the local manifestations of a village ten-thousand miles away.

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture. There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live. Authentic life demands it. Sanity demands it. A healthy integrated life demands it. Oremus. (Let us pray.)


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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 11:04:27 AM »

I am of Western descent, but I love the Byzantine liturgy--I don't think I would like the Western Rite.  I am perfectly content with my Byzantine liturgy in English.  I am not interested in any other liturgy.  If this happens, I might have to learn Russian and move there.  I would not be willing to give up my Byzantine liturgy.  I think the Church would find a lot of rebellion from the laypeople in the US and other places if they tried to force Western Rite on us.

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 11:11:06 AM »

A few points:

--I support the Western rite.

--The Byzantine and Russian rites are different than most people in [American] culture are used to, but they're really not that bizarre to outsiders (at least those who have some exposure to liturgy -- Baptists feel just as lost in Catholic churches the first time, too).

--The idea of patrimony is quickly becoming one of yesteryear. Church attendance in most of western Europe is nil. The United States will be a completely post-Christian culture in another decade, and those who remain will be low church Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Liturgy and devotion of any stripe will be outside most people's frame of reference.

--Consider this point the reiteration of the previous posters' points about globalization.
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 02:03:01 PM »

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture.

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Quote
There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live.

Translation: The reality of cultural diffusion in this country is too complex for me to address head-on without destroying my simplistic ideas about "European culture," so I'll just mystify you with gobbledygook about "authentic life" and that je ne sais quoi that we all just know flows in the blood of every real American.
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 02:26:42 PM »

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Poppycock. The difference between pagan revivalism and Western liturgical revivalism is simple: Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth. The old paganisms were false; the Western Rite is not false. There is no comparison between the two.

The liturgical and devotional traditions of the West developed because they spoke to the Western mind and soul, just as comparable traditions developed in the East. Wanting that back is not "contemptible," though it may be "ethnicism" (whatever that is.)
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 02:34:29 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 03:07:43 PM »

A few comments which add to Agabus and Iconodule's position...

Firstly I think some of the posters here have forgotten two major points of fact.

Historically, Christianity has always had multiple liturgies. From East to West throughout history there has been hundreds. This has diminished significantly in the last 1000 years, but so has Orthodoxy (to Roman Catholicism as it came to be known and the separation became a great divide) which has found tribalism and ethnocentrism to become the normal way to protect culture and the faith. The backlash of this being that the idea of allowing certain other liturgical rites to flourish is seen as a threat to what is now considered Eastern culture. St John Maximovitch discovered this as he attempted to establish the Orthodox Western Rite in Europe.

Globalism is neither good nor bad. It just is. In fact, it may be an environment which encourages redevelopment of multiple liturgical rites. But lest we forget that we should not just dig up the past like some have done, as if liturgy was some historical theatrical performance.

The liturgical arts are slowly developing in this new world just as they have in Russia ( which was at one time simply accepting an immigrant religious culture along with Christianity as well) and other places as well. But Russia has had 1000 years to develop this and within the US the scene is much more complicated due to the quibbling between Moscow and the Greeks about who came first [chicken or egg?].

I am not for an Eastern rite or a Western Rite. I see no division. It is Orthodox Christianity. These are merely terms which are born as ways to differentiate the two styles, post schism. But within them, there are myriad of new seeds of expression of liturgical worship which are begging to develop further if only given the chance.

I think we need to begin looking at things from this broader perspective, remembering that the liturgy which St. John Cassian celebrated was complimentary to that which St. Cyril, St. Symeon the Stylite, St. Gregory and many, many more celebrated. It is one faith.

I do not wholeheartedly agree that Christianity is dying in the world. In my own life I see it every day more clearly that progressive, fake altruism that casts aside Christianity while it accepts false religions. But this is the faith of the first century and the last. The faith that the gates of Hades will not prevail against. We will be here when, as Johnny Cash said, "The Man comes around".

Until then, we have much work to do. Why should we see division when we see these expressions of worship? I find no convincing argument.






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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 03:16:53 PM »

I have already written about the tragedy of people giving up their own culture to adopt a new one. They don't become something new, they only really are able to reject what they are and thereby become nothing, "a man without a country," without a father and mother.

The culture of the United States can only find its real ultimate cultural life in the old Latin Mass. English culture ultimately springs from this as does all of European culture.

These are the same arguments used on behalf of pagan revivalism. The only difference is that the point of reference is further along on the historical timeline. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is contemptible ethnicism which should be execrated in the same breath as neo-paganism, neo-fascism, and every other dying gasp of a world that is fast disappearing. If this is the sort of thinking underpinning Western Rite then it's doomed.

Quote
There are so many unconscious connections to this regional liturgical life in our culture that it would be impossible to list them all. But they are still present in an intuitive sense. Even if we can't quite put our finger on it, we know that there should be something there. It is here that the regional and local cultures must once again begin to live.

Translation: The reality of cultural diffusion in this country is too complex for me to address head-on without destroying my simplistic ideas about "European culture," so I'll just mystify you with gobbledygook about "authentic life" and that je ne sais quoi that we all just know flows in the blood of every real American.

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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English. Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 04:18:56 PM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

I'm speaking of why do you have the Eastern liturgy in a Western context?...
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 04:25:32 PM »

I think you're trying to import Eastern Christianity into a Western world.  



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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 04:30:43 PM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

I'm speaking of why do you have the Eastern liturgy in a Western context?...

The Catholic, Anglican, and Western-rite Orthodox services are no more or less "foreign" to my ears than an "Eastern" liturgy upon first hearing them. But the Orthodox one sure does sound more beautiful to me. Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 04:39:54 PM »

I am of Western descent, but I love the Byzantine liturgy--I don't think I would like the Western Rite.  I am perfectly content with my Byzantine liturgy in English.  I am not interested in any other liturgy.  If this happens, I might have to learn Russian and move there.  I would not be willing to give up my Byzantine liturgy.  I think the Church would find a lot of rebellion from the laypeople in the US and other places if they tried to force Western Rite on us.



I think you're trying to import Eastern Christianity into the Western sphere.  
Fixed that for you. Orthodoxy is Christianity.

While the Western Rite is a noble and good project, do not assume that it resonates with all of us who were born in “the west.” My western patrimony was backwoods fundamentalism. The same goes for the vast majority of the region in which I was raised, with a good bit of hillbilly and redneck superstition to boot. Any Orthodoxy is imported, be it Byzantine or Anglo-Latin-Franco-Western.

EDIT: I’ve said this in the past, but it bears repeating. Though I don’t find the WR particularly appealing, if a WR mission started in my town, I would begin attending that week since the nearest ER parish is an hour away (and that one just started a couple of weeks ago). Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of trappings.
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 04:44:03 PM »

The way I see it, people brought Orthodoxy here as a complete package with the Liturgies and Traditions that it already had.  (This  complete package may have included things that were not really of the Church, but the Orthodox faith did come with it.) 

Just as it was brought to the Slavs, it changed from Greek ways,  the services here will slowly change to fit our ways.  There is no need for radical change with two "rites" in one place.  What needs to change will change. 
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 04:49:12 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 04:49:48 PM »

What do you mean?
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 04:50:42 PM »

I think you're overthinking things, WPM. What would you rather have? What, specifically, is your problem?
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2013, 04:52:51 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?


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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 04:57:24 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?




The purveyor of Internet Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2013, 04:57:46 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
If a certain liturgical rite doesn't quite fit our culture, and changes over time in the way that AWR suggested, that does not mean that the religion being practiced in the first place is "fake" or that it isn't true Christianity. The liturgies may or may not change over time to better fit our culture, but what matters throughout the process is the truths that the liturgy is proclaiming and the realities that it is making sacramentally present.

If I have a piece of text that's written in, say, French (which is a language that I don't know), and I have to translate it out of French in order to understand it, it doesn't make the content of that text any more true or false.
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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2013, 04:58:50 PM »

True Christianity=prayer, repentance, almsgiving, fasting, sacraments, forgiveness, following Christ's commandments, communion of saints

What does eastern or western have to do with it?

Frankly, I find the labels eastern and western to be idiotic since most people applying them simply make sweeping generalizations or otherwise don't take into account history.

But I predict we won't get very far discussing this since the accusations are all cryptic one-liners.
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 04:59:35 PM »

Is this the right way to approach the life of the Liturgy ~ Let the fake'o'dox thing fall apart then discover the true Christianity!?.. Sad
Who has leveled the fakeodox charge?




The purveyor of Internet Orthodoxy.

Who is that and what is "Internet Orthodoxy?"
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« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.
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« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 05:05:25 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.
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« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2013, 05:05:56 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.
And what, pray tell, is actual practice?

This whole thread is gadflyry at its best.
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« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2013, 05:06:16 PM »

It's helpful to use language in ways that make your meaning clear, rather than in ways that confuse and obscure it. We often discuss Orthodoxy on the Internet, but those of us who are Orthodox practice it in Churches and homes and throughout our lives. Our practice is an actual one, and it does not take place on the Internet.
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« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2013, 05:09:13 PM »

It's helpful to use language in ways that make your meaning clear, rather than in ways that confuse and obscure it. We often discuss Orthodoxy on the Internet, but those of us who are Orthodox practice it in Churches and homes and throughout our lives. Our practice is an actual one, and it does not take place on the Internet.
Yes, the way you’re being so cryptic — the OP, that is — sounds like you don’t believe it is possible for someone to convert to anything.
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« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2013, 05:09:44 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)
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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2013, 05:14:09 PM »

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.
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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2013, 05:14:59 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English.

It's not comparable at all. English is more intelligible to me than Slavonic or Greek because I am an Anglophone. That does not mean the Western Rite is more intelligible to me than the Eastern rite. There are many Americans, like me, who were never raised with a form of the Christian religion. There are many more Americans who were raised with Christianity for which the high masses of the Anglicans and RC's is equally foreign as the Eastern rite. I am personally more comfortable with Eastern Rite and many American Orthodox feel the same way.  

Quote
Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.

It was the priest quoted above who suggested that only the Latin mass gives full access to "authentic life", "sanity", etc. I'm glad you would agree though that such sentiments are ludicrous. As for what is more "comprehensible to Americans," that point has been well-addressed already. Which Americans?

Imagine how strange the liturgy- any form of it- would appear to someone raised with the indigenous religions in places like China or Alaska, then get back to me about how incomprehensible the Eastern rite should be to us Americans. A lot of Americans think Indian food is really weird at first, but after a few tries it becomes their favorite food.
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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)
Will you provide a link so we could could possibly maybe get a grasp at that which you are trying to critique?
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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2013, 05:21:52 PM »

I also don't know why people are using the Western Rite as the basis or premise for constructing arguments.
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2013, 05:51:15 PM »

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.

Could be having a different brain or thought-process.
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« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2013, 06:00:04 PM »

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.
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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2013, 06:10:05 PM »

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

I work for a hospital chain. We don't group people by culture.
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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2013, 07:19:27 PM »

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

Forgive me while I go and work on a response for a few hours.
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« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2013, 07:30:30 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.
And what, pray tell, is actual practice?

This whole thread is gadflyry at its best.

Did someone say....

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« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2013, 07:32:05 PM »

I'm beginning to think that there's an actual language barrier here, and not just obscure use of language.

No. It's just the conversation in WPM's head to which we're not privy.
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« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2013, 07:58:41 PM »

We all have different brains, but we are generally able to communicate with other despite this difference. I'm worried that we are genuinely not understanding your concern.

Is this the concern that you're trying to communicate?: It doesn't make any sense for there to be Orthodox Churches in America and Western Europe, since Orthodox Christianity is Eastern and those places are Western.

If that is your concern, then I would respond as follows:

We "import" Orthodox Christianity into places where it is historically absent for the same reason that we "import" hospitals into places where they are historically absent. Hospitals are good for the health of our bodies and Orthodox Christianity is good for the health of our souls, so we bring each of them to places where they formerly were not.

I can't think of anything to say. I'll try again next time
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« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2013, 08:10:50 PM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?
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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2013, 08:18:58 PM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?

Yes, that's the ethnic Jesus from the middle eastern part of the world.
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« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2013, 08:38:00 PM »

Why would you "import" Eastern Christianity into a Western context?...
You know Jesus lived in the Middle East, right?

Yes, that's the ethnic Jesus from the middle eastern part of the world.
There is no non-ethnic Jesus. He's still human and has the same humanity, but glorified.
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« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2013, 09:56:14 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
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« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2013, 10:47:40 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.
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« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2013, 10:57:55 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?
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« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2013, 11:26:09 PM »

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

... Undecided
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« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2013, 11:29:44 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
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« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2013, 11:50:11 PM »

Western liturgical revivalism is not based on the denial of a universal truth.

In this case, it is indeed based on such a denial. Of course differences in liturgy do not reflect a difference in truth. So why the insistence upon a "Western" liturgy for "Western" people, as something essential to their "authentic life"? It can only come with the implication that those in the West who celebrate the Eastern rite are somehow being barred from "authentic life", "sanity," etc.

It's for the same reason that we want Americans to have Liturgy in English.

It's not comparable at all. English is more intelligible to me than Slavonic or Greek because I am an Anglophone. That does not mean the Western Rite is more intelligible to me than the Eastern rite. There are many Americans, like me, who were never raised with a form of the Christian religion. There are many more Americans who were raised with Christianity for which the high masses of the Anglicans and RC's is equally foreign as the Eastern rite. I am personally more comfortable with Eastern Rite and many American Orthodox feel the same way.  

Quote
Not because the Liturgy is somehow "less the Liturgy" or it "reflects a difference in truth" or, God forbid, "bars people from sanity," (which I don't think I ever suggested) in Russian, but because it's more comprehensible to Americans that way. It communicates to them better. The same goes for differences in liturgical form, styles of chant, etc. that developed in different countries/regions over time.

It was the priest quoted above who suggested that only the Latin mass gives full access to "authentic life", "sanity", etc. I'm glad you would agree though that such sentiments are ludicrous. As for what is more "comprehensible to Americans," that point has been well-addressed already. Which Americans?

Imagine how strange the liturgy- any form of it- would appear to someone raised with the indigenous religions in places like China or Alaska, then get back to me about how incomprehensible the Eastern rite should be to us Americans. A lot of Americans think Indian food is really weird at first, but after a few tries it becomes their favorite food.

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about. Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2013, 11:57:33 PM »

Quote
Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle.

A look at an orthodox menaion for the month of December will show otherwise.  police
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« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2013, 12:00:31 AM »

BTW, the priest that you're quoting catechized and chrismated me, and married my wife and me. Interestingly, for all his admiration of and attachment to the Western rite, he serves at an Eastern rite parish.
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« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2013, 12:02:22 AM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

A fish.
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« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2013, 12:03:53 AM »

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

... Undecided

Ooooo. I LOVE theatre of the absurd.
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« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2013, 12:14:26 AM »

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about. Smiley

As another minimally liturgical ex-Protestant and while I would've found both the Western and Eastern rites to have been equally daunting and unfamiliar, the Western rites seem more "close" in terms of cultural heritage than the Eastern rites do. I'm not sure how to describe it myself, but I feel like I'm honestly ignoring a large part of my Western (Orthodox) heritage by immersing myself solely into the Eastern rite's life in all its forms.
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« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2013, 12:22:06 AM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

Philosophical things and concepts that fit in neat categories.
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« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2013, 12:30:48 AM »

I think you make some great points, Iconodule. As a former evangelical, the Western Rite was as foreign to me as anything Eastern. Although I'm sure you'll disagree, here are some further thoughts of Fr. Winfrey's that touch on this:

But I would question the statement that both rites are equally foreign. Everyone who has lived here in the West has heard Gregorian chant, and most everyone here is deeply moved by it spiritually. There are abundant hymns that are loved--even in the Protestant circles--that are cherished and fully Orthodox in content that are even used in the Latin tradition. The sense of anticipation following American Thanksgiving for Christmas is a cultural memory of Advent, which is uniquely Western. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that only the Western Church developed a truly specific Nativity cycle. The cultural bias of westerners is to get right to the point, and that is one of the salient characteristics of the Latin liturgy. It follows the western mind. The eastern mind is quite different. It is lovely and authentic, but it is not ours as westerners. Regardless of one's subjective neutrality, one is the inheritor of the fuller western life that is found everywhere we turn and which was most beautifully expressed in the Latin Mass. That ought really not to be surprising, because the Mass is the highest point of man's experience and life and therefore it is the highest expression that is possible in any culture. What that culture has been formed by the historic, apostolic Church, then her worship is the pinnacle of our culture and all of our culture is ultimately carried in it. Culturally this is beyond anyone's subjective admirations or comfort.

I'm not posting this because I fully agree with him, but I find the topic of intersecting cultures and incarnational Christianity to be fascinating, and I think his comments bring up interesting points for us to think about. Smiley

As another minimally liturgical ex-Protestant and while I would've found both the Western and Eastern rites to have been equally daunting and unfamiliar, the Western rites seem more "close" in terms of cultural heritage than the Eastern rites do. I'm not sure how to describe it myself, but I feel like I'm honestly ignoring a large part of my Western (Orthodox) heritage by immersing myself solely into the Eastern rite's life in all its forms.

Having gotten my bearings now, in a liturgical setting, I feel the same way (even though that setting is the Western Rite). I think that's what I find compelling about Fr. Winfrey's (albeit, sometimes unclear) thoughts. There is something deep in my bones, by the sheer fact of me being a Westerner, that resonates with the Western Rite. My first Western Rite Mass was me balancing three different books in my hands trying to follow along, and I barely understood anything that was happening, but all I wanted to do was go back and experience it all over again. The chant, the vestments, the altar, the prayers, the gestures, all of it felt like I was remembering something I'd forgotten, even though I'd had no experience with liturgy at all.

As inquirers tend to do, I visited other Orthodox parishes, all Eastern Rite, and though I thought they were beautiful, it just wasn't the same for me. Some of what Fr. Winfrey says puts into words what I was experiencing, and what I think many (though certainly not all) Westerners have the potential of experiencing when the riches of the Western Rite are expressed and nurtured within an Orthodox context once again.
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« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2013, 01:00:47 AM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?
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« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2013, 02:07:33 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

Philosophical things and concepts that fit in neat categories.

Ok! Sooooo much clearer now! Wow! Glad we all took the time to get to the bottom of this! Hold on, I think I left more sarcasm in another thread. Perhaps I left it where I lost my mind while trying to figure this one out! (Scratching the hole in my head where my brains oozed out)
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« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2013, 03:07:41 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
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« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2013, 03:17:03 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.

Fresh kibbles malingering in surgeon days permeate silent winks?
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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2013, 03:26:26 PM »

Looking over WPM's posting history, it seems he has a knack for saying strange things and then just letting them... hang there. Case in point...
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« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2013, 04:27:29 PM »

No, I don't think the above is accurate. I'm talking in terms of basic chat.

Just because I don't have eloquent speech and a fancy treatise.
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« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »

No, I don't think the above is accurate. I'm talking in terms of basic chat.

Just because I don't have eloquent speech and a fancy treatise.

It's got nothing to do with eloquence. It's about maintaining a basic flow of logical thoughts. For example, can you honestly expect anyone to look at the below exchange, and come away with the impression that you have any point to make? When someone asks you what you are talking about, it's not a good sign if your answer begins with "Probably..."

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
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« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2013, 04:47:17 PM »

When someone asks you what you are talking about


I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.
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« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2013, 05:30:11 PM »

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.
Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.
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« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2013, 05:32:08 PM »

What do you mean?

The whole thing falls apart because its Internet Orthodoxy and not an actual practice.

Can you at least define the term for us? Cause I'm lost at what you're trying to say.

(Its a Internet-Themed Christianity and is not a real life Orthodox practice) .. (I'm talking about the other forum)

What do you mean by "Eastern Christianity", "Western Context", "Internet Orthodoxy", "Internet-themed Christianity" and "the other forum"?  Knowing what your understanding is of those terms, may help us to know better where you're coming from and answer your question.

I think he meant what he said. It was pretty clear.
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« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2013, 05:35:33 PM »

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.
Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.

By "us" do you mean us vs. them?..
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« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2013, 05:41:29 PM »

I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.
Whatever that means, let us know how that works out.

By "us" do you mean us vs. them?..

By "them" do you mean the giant mutant killer ants?

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« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2013, 05:44:04 PM »

When someone asks you what you are talking about


I'm going to start all over again with Christianity and the Bible.


That's how I became Orthodox  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2013, 05:52:08 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people feel the need to "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...
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« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2013, 05:53:52 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?
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« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2013, 05:55:51 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people feel the need to "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

I guess this is one of those things that will never be solved. Chocolate is different from vanilla. Dogs are not cats. I'm not good at poker.

It's a shame, but sometimes we just have to turn away from things that will never work. You can't get blood out of a stone.  Cry
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« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2013, 06:01:59 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.
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« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2013, 06:05:35 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?

I'm just "chatting for fun" via the internet - not starting a official dialogue.
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« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2013, 06:10:43 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.
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« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2013, 06:15:56 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

I'm sorry that that's been your experience, Biro, and I don't doubt that you are describing it accurately. All I can say is that I've been in a dozen parishes and never really felt alienated or made to feel like an outsider. Some parishes were more welcoming than others, of course. But again, I'm sorry that your experiences have been different than my positive ones.
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« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2013, 06:16:52 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

I'm sorry that that's been your experience, Biro, and I don't doubt that you are describing it accurately. All I can say is that I've been in a dozen parishes and never really felt alienated or made to feel like an outsider. Some parishes were more welcoming than others, of course. But again, I'm sorry that your experiences have been different than my positive ones.

Thank you. I'm sorry I dragged you into this.  Embarrassed Hopefully, some good will come out of it.
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« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2013, 06:17:15 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

How do they do this?
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« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2013, 06:20:25 PM »

Why base your premise on the Western Rite? Could be European village Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2013, 07:12:39 PM »

Why base your premise on the Western Rite? Could be European village Orthodoxy.
Well that makes things a lot simpler. I may be repeating the points of other posters, and I am not myself Orthodox, but I will try to explain once more:

The basic problem from the Orthodox viewpoint is that all forms of Christianity that developed in the West, whether Roman Catholic or Protestant, are more or less distorted and no longer true Christianity, while Orthodoxy is the true Christianity found in the Church of all times. So I believe it has been said before, but I will make it clearer: There is no "Eastern" Christianity, only the true Orthodox Christianity that has either disappeared in the West, or never before existed in the West. The form of liturgy (Divine Liturgy, Western Rite, etc) is essentially irrelevant to the discussion, except that for whatever reason, 90+% of Orthodox parishes use the same liturgy with different small variations.

As an aside, the reason there is an Orthodox Church of America is that a Roman Catholic archbishop had the exact same thinking as you do, so he forbade Fr. Alexis Toth from setting up Byzantine (that is, Eastern) Catholic parishes in his diocese because the West was Latin, period. Rather than accept that he and his flock could become Roman Rite Catholics and give up the rites they had used for centuries, he broke away and became Orthodox, and eventually a saint in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2013, 09:02:49 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.
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« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2013, 09:31:28 PM »

I was born in Pennsylvania in 1979, and raised in mostly non-religious homes. A Christianity that developed in Gaul or Italy 1,500 years ago is no more or less foreign to me than one that developed in Egypt or Turkey.

The problem is when they treat me like I'm foreign to them.

I had Orthodox friends all my life, spent time with them, no problem. I walk into one of their churches, though, and even though I keep trying for three years, most of them still treat me like toxic mold.

Anyone who pretends this problem doesn't exist, is kidding themselves.

There are many "Western" parishes where I could find the same problem. What's your point? Fortunately there are also many Orthodox parishes that aren't like this at all.
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« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2013, 09:33:48 PM »

What do you mean?

Why do people "import" Eastern Christianity when living in the West? Shouldn't people in the West practice the Christianity that developed in Western thought?...

Your question has been addressed by several people, in great detail, throughout this thread. Why haven't you addressed any of the points made?

I'm just "chatting for fun" via the internet - not starting a official dialogue.

It's not chatting, fun or otherwise, if you're really just talking to yourself.
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« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2013, 09:45:12 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.

Yes, the real Jesus.
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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2013, 09:49:46 PM »

I don't think Jesus is subject to court of law. (Meaning that He lives and exists independent from manmade laws)
What does this have to do with court of law?

I don't know  Huh
Then why did you bring it up?

Probably talking about an Islamic court with Middle Eastern Architecture.
I thought we were discussing Christ's ethnicity.

Yes, the real Jesus.

Who was not a Muslim. Basically, you have no point.
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2013, 11:06:47 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...
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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2013, 11:18:29 PM »

What do you mean?
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2013, 11:29:00 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong WPM, but are you saying that the Orthodox churches in America should be of Arab decent if they claim to be the one true church of Christ?
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« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 

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« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2013, 01:18:33 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.
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« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2013, 01:20:49 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong WPM, but are you saying that the Orthodox churches in America should be of Arab decent if they claim to be the one true church of Christ?
I think you're reading a little too much into what WPM is saying. His thoughts are all over the place on this thread. I will nominate you for Man of the Year, however, if you can get a coherent question and/or answer out of this thread. Smiley

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« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2013, 01:47:21 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

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« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:22 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

ROCOR and the Antiochians have Western Rite Vicarates in the USA.  ROCOR has a good number of Western Rite parishes under the direction of a Bishop for the Eastern Diocese.  A Bishop for the Antiochians oversees their Western Rite Vicarate.  Both use "Orthodoxized" versions of Sarum Rite, Gallic Rite, etc.  The purpose is for RCs and Anglicans to become Orthodox by using "pre-Schism" rites.
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« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2013, 01:53:28 AM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh
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« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2013, 01:56:51 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.
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« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2013, 02:06:45 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

Thanks. 

I figured anything could by found on Google, but I wanted to hear what the real difference is, if it's just aesthetics or something else.

I was told by many people that the Anglican and Roman Catholic services have all fallen apart for the most part.  Not sure about the rest you mention. 

There really isn't an "American Western Rite" is there?   They are all imports?

ROCOR and the Antiochians have Western Rite Vicarates in the USA.  ROCOR has a good number of Western Rite parishes under the direction of a Bishop for the Eastern Diocese.  A Bishop for the Antiochians oversees their Western Rite Vicarate.  Both use "Orthodoxized" versions of Sarum Rite, Gallic Rite, etc.  The purpose is for RCs and Anglicans to become Orthodox by using "pre-Schism" rites.

Thank you. 

Not sure if I've attended one of those or not.  I guess I would notice when it deviates from Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Do you happen to know if Elder Sophrony used a Western Rite? 
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« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2013, 03:14:36 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.

I'm all for the use of Western Rite liturgies, since they have proven to be a good tool towards catching fish, but in America we have two contending Patriarchates which can lay claim to the privelege of being the Mother church. That said, only one is friendly to the use of multiple rites (ROCOR) Thankfully ROCOR is joined now with MP and supports the Autocephaly of the OCA.

I look at  the American Antiochian church as an asset BUT... It complicates the issue of unification. It has a rich history in America and brings validity to the OCA and the issue of the need for unity. But will the Bishops cooperate when the time comes to relinquish control and step down from their lofty places?

It seems there is an unwritten rule amongst the OCA clergy that it can not support its own Western rite. I think this is good insofar as everyone maintains the walk towards one United North American Orthodox synod and eventual patriarchate.

But I find that there are many amongst the Greek clergy that seem to feel that there should only be one celebrated liturgy. It's a shame.

You know, my conversion was through a Gallican Western Rite orthodox church (in schism) and I had no previous experience with liturgy other than a childhood visit to a friend's Catholic mass. So I'm sympathetic to the cause and could see early on that it is Orthodox to use multiple liturgies, specifically regionally. I wish I could see what it would look like in a perfect thriving America of the future. It is at least exciting to be in the era of formation on this continent. I think we can see some of this new expression emerging.
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« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2013, 11:37:53 AM »

What are you speaking of, WPM? Being Orthodox in the west?

If so, I kind of agree.

The Orthodox faith, though, claims to be the universal Christian faith, not just the Eastern one. If this claim is false, then Orthodoxy is false, and no one should follow it, not even in the East. If, however, this claim is true, then everyone should follow it, including Westerners.

I am, however, in full agreement that the importation of Byzantine and Slavic liturgical and devotional styles into America and especially into Western Europe is less than ideal. Sadly, however, the Western Rite is not yet large enough to accommodate everyone. What are you going to do?


Since WPM didn't mention anything about a Western Rite, and you were the first to mention it, I'll respond to your comment, though I hope someone will reply if you don't care to.

Could someone explain what a "Western Rite" is and how it differs from Orthodoxy?

Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I'm really not sure what the term means.  If I had to guess, it is a high church older Anglican or Roman Catholic method of conducting a church service. 

Is it different because the music style is different? 


I believe he's referring to the traditions (praxis, dogmatic expressions, liturgics, rubrics, hymnography, etc.) which formed out of the west... ie: out of Gaul we find the Gallican rite, out of Spain and Portugal we find the Mozarabic rite, also there is the Sarum, Latin and later the Benedictine. There are more but these are the major ones.

Especially in the west throughout history we find that many liturgies and therefore catechisms existed at the same time, as regional expressions of the faith (read:Orthodox) while in the east we find that the Byzantine Rite (amongst eastern Orthodox at least) became the front running and eventually the primary rite.

Many of these exist in our present day as a way to bring back and express Orthodoxy to the West, especially converts from Anglican or RC backgrounds. There's a lot to take in on this subject but go to Orthodoxwiki and do a search for more.

That is well put. Christianity is incarnational in its essence. Different cultures, in different times and places, incarnated the mysteries of the faith in ritual, space, imagery, chant, hymn, prayer, devotion, etc. The Western Rite is a broad term that covers the way in which the various peoples of "the Western world" accomplished this throughout history.

As the Orthodox faith takes root in North America (and other western places, like England or Australia, for example) many wise and holy people (including some saints) have thought an Orthodox Western Rite could be a useful part of the Church's mission to draw Westerners back to the pure faith of the Apostles and Fathers.

I'm all for the use of Western Rite liturgies, since they have proven to be a good tool towards catching fish, but in America we have two contending Patriarchates which can lay claim to the privelege of being the Mother church. That said, only one is friendly to the use of multiple rites (ROCOR) Thankfully ROCOR is joined now with MP and supports the Autocephaly of the OCA.

I look at  the American Antiochian church as an asset BUT... It complicates the issue of unification. It has a rich history in America and brings validity to the OCA and the issue of the need for unity. But will the Bishops cooperate when the time comes to relinquish control and step down from their lofty places?

It seems there is an unwritten rule amongst the OCA clergy that it can not support its own Western rite. I think this is good insofar as everyone maintains the walk towards one United North American Orthodox synod and eventual patriarchate.

But I find that there are many amongst the Greek clergy that seem to feel that there should only be one celebrated liturgy. It's a shame.

You know, my conversion was through a Gallican Western Rite orthodox church (in schism) and I had no previous experience with liturgy other than a childhood visit to a friend's Catholic mass. So I'm sympathetic to the cause and could see early on that it is Orthodox to use multiple liturgies, specifically regionally. I wish I could see what it would look like in a perfect thriving America of the future. It is at least exciting to be in the era of formation on this continent. I think we can see some of this new expression emerging.

At least, in that case, no one could accuse us of being 'organized religion'. 

Your view of ROCOR is interesting.  Locally, I had this completely different view of ROCOR being very strict compared to Greeks, and OCA seeming like they were dabbling in Roman Catholicism.  The ROCOR I've experienced insists more on Russian being used, even of late by the people in Alaska, who really should have the Liturgy in their own language, not Church Slavonic. 

The Greeks seem more a mix between culture clubs with organs and pews and English is Spoken Here, but their missions seem to reach out to everyone. 

Maybe there are just more native Russian speakers at this point than native born Greeks where I live. 

As for the Byzantine chant, that was a developed taste, and prefer that or Znamenny or plainchant or Georgian over anything else.  I also prefer the monastic style without all the ornamentation and ostentation.   But I'll still pray with any choir as best I can.  I also think it is wonderful that people are working to preserve older forms of chant styles. 

Then there is St. Nicholas of Myra Russian Orthodox church in Amsterdam where the Nave almost looks like a stripped down Baptist church.  I know what a Baptist church looks like inside because I had to go in to do some work in one once.   I've never attended a service there.

Catholic churches look odd to me because there are no iconostasis and they've turned the altar around and just have a table sitting out in the middle of nowhere.  That's what it looks like to me anyway.  Very strange.  Someone said they turned it around some years ago.

Seems like different aspects of the Church draw people, but really the main thing is for a person to want to draw closer to Christ through the Orthodox Sacraments.  It's my understanding that there is a definite sequence of events, preparatory prayers, etc. that take place before and during them. 

Maybe certain trappings will draw them, but until they recognize that Christ is the ultimate goal, there really is no point to any of it.  And anyone who stands in church for hours upon hours year after year will probably learn how wonderful icons are for that wandering attention span.
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« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2013, 01:19:54 PM »

Well, ROCOR has a Western rite which includes at least three Liturgies if I am not mistaken, allowing for the Gallican, Old Latin and Mozarabic. I know priests using two of these within ROCOR. Also ROCOR has been supportive of the OCA when others were not. I like it that their bishop is bi-ritual.
Yes, there are ethnic Russian/Old Slavonic parishes that wish to remain that way. I don't really have a problem with ethnic parishes, but see them as temporary since those ethnic parishes will naturally close or change to English as new generations take up the cross.

The Greek church, while I love them and love the rich tradition, I have to agree on most parts with you. For the most part it is a culture club. But while they have a strongly known presence as THE Orthodox, only spend like 3% of their funds on missionary effort. After seeing what the two Northwest Greek Festivals bring in annually, it is a shame to know that so little is spent on missionary effort. At least on the west coast, it is a commonly known fact that "the Greeks have the money".

The Serbs here in the northwest are a whole different ball of wax. Amazingly pious. Tything (even the ones who don't come on Sunday.) Ethnic parishes keep to themselves while the convert parishes are building growth, mission efforts and all on a shoe-string budget with little to no help from their diocese. The bishop over here is young and dynamic and very personally involved with his parishes even though his diocese is the largest in the whole church. The missions are closely connected to Platina monastery and therefore have the spiritual connection needed to thrive.

I don't worry too much about what the RCC is doing and yes they took down the rood screen and serve from the other side of the altar like some theatrical performance instead of "on behalf of all and for all".

I agree with you that it is Christ who is the focal point, not the pomp and grandeur of our church, though one could hardly call my parish grand, just a wooden building on some beautiful wooded acreage with a very basic iconostasis. We are blessed. I only wish our church could get its act together and build a monastery here in Oregon. We need it badly.
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« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2013, 01:33:56 PM »

The Greek church, while I love them and love the rich tradition, I have to agree on most parts with you. For the most part it is a culture club. But while they have a strongly known presence as THE Orthodox, only spend like 3% of their funds on missionary effort. After seeing what the two Northwest Greek Festivals bring in annually, it is a shame to know that so little is spent on missionary effort. At least on the west coast, it is a commonly known fact that "the Greeks have the money".
The Greek church that we go to here in Wyoming operates on a loss every year. Money from Greek festivals is supposed to be used for things like missionary efforts, charity, helping the GOYA with trips, etc., but we have to use it for our operating costs every year just to make ends meet. Luckily, we're still able to donate 10% of the revenue to local charities. Tithing is just much lower than it should be.
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« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2013, 02:39:12 PM »

Wow!
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« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2013, 03:24:49 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

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« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2013, 03:26:33 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...


Someone needs a map and a history lesson.
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« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.



What does the OCA have to do with the Middle East?
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« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2013, 03:48:36 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.



What does the OCA have to do with the Middle East?

Not anything.
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« Reply #116 on: January 10, 2013, 04:02:59 PM »

Someone needs a map and a history lesson.

Paging ialmisry.
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« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2013, 04:10:12 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh
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« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2013, 04:31:49 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.
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« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2013, 04:53:52 PM »

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

There are nearly 100 OCA parishes/missions listed for Alaska. Is that non-northeastern enough for you?  Grin
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« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2013, 04:54:38 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.

He didn't know you needed a treatise on the topic  police
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« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2013, 05:05:40 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2013, 06:37:33 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
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« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2013, 06:56:21 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
Do you mean that priests at Western-rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese aren't allowed to catechize and chrismate individuals who want to become Orthodox? I've never heard that before.
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« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2013, 08:21:01 PM »

Is that why the majority of parishes are clustered up Northeast Coast USA?...

What do you think?   Huh

Well, you've got the majority of OCA parishes located in the upper Northeastern part of the country. In places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey or New York Metropolitan areas.

This is the Convert Issues board.  What does your statement have to do with Convert Issues?   Huh

His statements have no apparent connection with each other, let alone with what anyone else is saying. I give up.

He/She might get bored and go away quietly.   angel
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« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2013, 10:12:16 PM »

Around here we have one OCA, one AOCA, one ROCOR, and two GOA parishes. Near-perfect balance!  Grin No Western-rite ones though.

Anyway, I personally don't care, if someday I convert the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrystostom are fine with me. I will hazard a guess, though, that the Western Rite wouldn't really take off unless entire Catholic and Anglican parishes started converting to Orthodoxy.

Whole parishes are the only way the Antiochian Archdiocese will receive converts into the Western Rite.
Do you mean that priests at Western-rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese aren't allowed to catechize and chrismate individuals who want to become Orthodox? I've never heard that before.

No! I mean that only whole, stable groups/parishes were/are allowed to enter into the Vicariate as Western Rite, and anyone desiring to worship as Western Rite must do so through an established parish. There are no individuals "blessed" to the Western Rite.
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« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2013, 11:11:18 PM »

There are also no individuals to do Eastern Rite on their own...
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« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2013, 11:38:30 PM »

I remembered and found this relevant quote from Prof. H.A. Hodges:

The Orthodox Faith must be capable of expression in terms of the life and thought of western peoples . . .
Western Orthodoxy cannot be constituted merely by planting colonies of Orthodox people from the East in
Western countries . . . True western Orthodoxy is to be found by bodies of western people, members of western
nations, coming with all their western background, their western habits and traditions, into the circle
of the Orthodox Faith. Then we should have an Orthodoxy which was really western because its memory
was western – a memory of the Christian history of the West, not as the West now remembers it, but purged
and set in perspective by the Orthodox Faith.

Anglicanism and Orthodoxy, p. 52ff.
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