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Author Topic: WHY DOES GOD ALLOW ENORMOUS SUFFERING IN THIS WORLD?  (Read 6544 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2005, 11:31:18 AM »

God designs the natural law and sets it in to motion and then allows it to work on its own. Think of Newtonian physics.

What!? With all due respect my boy, you need to back off and take a few months and READ some Orthodox theology.

Do you even realize that you are espousing a heresy? It is called DEISM --

Pronunciation: 'dE-"i-z&m, 'dA-
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized

: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe

« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 11:34:34 AM by TomS » Logged
Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2005, 12:45:11 PM »



What!? With all due respect my boy, you need to back off and take a few months and READ some Orthodox theology.

Do you even realize that you are espousing a heresy? It is called DEISM --


Tom, you beat me to it.
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Matthew777
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2005, 04:15:46 PM »


What!? With all due respect my boy, you need to back off and take a few months and READ some Orthodox theology.


I would argue that there is no real conflict between science and religion because each has its own legitimate domain of authority and these domains do not overlap. However, science and religion are not necessarily incompatable and can both be held by the Orthodox Christian.

Do you even realize that you are espousing a heresy? It is called DEISM --

I am not espousing deism, I am espousing natural science. There should be nothing heretical with attributing a natural disaster to natural forces which God has designed and set in motion.
Deism asserts that God designed and set the laws of nature but never makes any exceptions of these laws or interventions in to nature; while Newton holds that God makes exceptions and interventions when necessary.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2005, 11:42:44 PM »

Here is an amazing article by Father Alexis Vinogradov on the question......



http://www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=746



Bob
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MBZ
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2005, 05:13:10 AM »

Hi all!

There are certain things that are simply beyond our human ability to grasp & that we'll never be able to figure out :dunno: . I look at Deuteronomy 29:28

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"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God..."
,

Psalm 131:1-2

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Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty; neither do I exercise myself in things too great, or in things too wonderful for me. Surely I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with his mother; my soul is with me like a weaned child."
,

Isaiah 55:9

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For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."

and Job 38:2-4

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Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and declare you unto Me. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have the understanding!


whenever I feel myself getting too big for my spiritual britches.

Be well!

MBZ

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Kolya
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2005, 08:46:46 AM »

Excellent observations MBZ!

The workings of God ARE unknowable to our finite minds.

Kolya
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2005, 03:12:28 PM »

Brothers and Sisters,

Glory to Jesus Christ in all sufferings!

Suffering, Glory, Perfection

Romans 8:17; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:18; For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

All forms of suffering is directly linked to Glory. Christians cannot compare the glory we will receive to suffering of this life. By the measure of which one suffers that same measure is meted out in Glory. Grumbling and cursing our infirmities and suffering brings God no glory so we must be thankful in all things knowing that God works all things to good to those that love Him. Read this verse our sufferings is directly related to the amount of glory we will recieve. More one suffers more glory one recieves. Suffering is good. If you are depressed and suffering, glory to God. Praise God in your weaknesses. Glorify Him and He will glorify you. I find helping people chases off depression.

Prayer is for our benfit and God answers prayers with one thing in mind: Will it progress us towards our salvation. If you are suffering then it is good because it is working towards your salvation. Praise God!

2 Corinthians 1:7; And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Phillipians 3:10; That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1 Peter 4:13; But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 2:20; For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

We are called to fellowship and know Christ through joining and partaking of His sufferings. Being a partaker of the divine nature means suffering. In some writings of the Church it appears when one is not suffering one is not partaking in His glory towards perfection. Some stories tell of people who cry out to God in dispair because they are not suffering and have it to good!

1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Hebrews 2:10; For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The captain of our salvation is made perfect through the sufferings of His Church. This is our call as Orthodox Christians. Let us rejoice and embrace our sufferings as unto glory unconceivable by the human mind perfecting the whole body of Christ. Let us join with others in their suffering and give comfort in that their glory is greater.

Jesus said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

“Be Ye” is not a request of Jesus. He did not say “try to be perfect”. He did not mean make a “good honest effort” to be perfect. No, fortunately Jesus did not make Christianity easy. Jesus is quite specific. “BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT”.

How did Jesus answer this question? Jesus said unto him, “If thou WILT be PERFECT, go and sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

This is the path to perfection. If one really desires to follow the Jesus of the Bible one must be willing to achieve this step of self emptying or “kenosis”.

Kenosis is achieved through our sufferings. We are to be humbled by suffering. Can God cause illness? Yes to humble us. I have a friend who has MS and he says it saved his life. He was pride filled and God humbled him to save him. "No Theosis without Kenosis" Saint Anthony the Great said I believe. Thus without self-emptying and following Christ to the Cross a person cannot be perfected in suffer. Suffering assists us in "self emptying".

We need to learn to embrace our sufferings for a higher unseen glory. Be thankful in all things this is the will of God for our lives. As one spiritual American ditty goes “No pain No gain” so it is with the orthodox Christian “No Pain No spiritual Gain”.

As far as the suffering of the world and atheist. I would say "Do you really want God controling every aspect of our lives?" "Dont go to Malasia today I am going to wipe it off the map". Do we really want God to control our free will to that extent? Or do we want God just to fix the bad things in life so we can ignore Him somemore?

In Christ,

Orthodoxy



« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 03:17:56 PM by Orthodoxy » Logged

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Donna Rose
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2005, 10:23:52 PM »

this isnt all that theological, but i feel like it has a bit of truth in it nonetheless...got it off another forum im on:

"Sometimes we wonder, "What did I do to deserve this?" or "Why did God have to do this to me?" Here is a wonderful explanation! A daughter is telling her Mother how everything is going wrong, she's failing algebra, her boyfriend broke up with her and her best friend is moving away.

Meanwhile, her Mother is baking a cake and asks her daughter if she would like a snack, and the daughter says, "Absolutely Mom, I love your cake."

"Here, have some cooking oil," her Mother offers. "Yuck" says her daughter.

"How about a couple raw eggs?" "Gross, Mom!"

"Would you like some flour then? Or maybe baking soda?" "Mom, those are all yucky!"

To which the mother replies: "Yes, all those things seem bad all by themselves. But when they are put together in the right way, they make a wonderfully delicious cake!

God works the same way. Many times we wonder why He would let us go through such bad and difficult times. But God knows that when He puts these things all in His order, they always work for good! We just have to trust Him and, eventually, they will all make something wonderful!"

makes some sense... Smiley

Now, we return to your regularly scheduled theological discussion... Smiley
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hmmmm...
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« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2005, 08:59:25 AM »

Hi all!

I just thought of something to add quickly before the Sabbath starts in 2 hours (and the computer goess off).

Look at Eli. Eli is one, rather unsung, Biblical character who fascinates me. His whole life/career is fascinating, from his meeting with Hannah, to his dressing down by the "man of God" (whom our Sages say was Elkanah), to his rather unpleasant end. But the episode that really touches me is in I Samuel 3.

Quote
And Eli perceived that the Lord was calling the child. Therefore Eli said unto Samuel: "Go, lie down; and it shall be, if you are called, that you shall say: 'Speak, Lord; for Your servant hears.'"

As the text tells us, Eli perceived that the Lord was calling the child and not himself and he wasn't jealous, envious or resentful. We learn more a few verses later on. The child Samuel, not surprisingly, is afraid to tell Eli about God's prophecy of doom on him and his house, but Eli is persistent & after hearing Samuel's report, says:

Quote
"It is the Lord; let Him do what seems good to Him."

Not only does Eli understand that the torch is being passed (as it were) to someone greater than himself (and he is not jealous, envious or resentful), but he calmly accept God's judgement. What mature faith! 

Quote
"It is the Lord; let Him do what seems good to Him."
What a lesson there is here!

Be well!

MBZ
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"Peace, peace to him that is far off and to him that is near." [Isaiah 57:19]

"Gather your wits and hold on fast..." [The Who]

"Lose your dreams and you could lose your mind." [The Rolling Stones]

http://tinyurl.com/bvskq

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