are you gay?

[Kerdy]

Is there even a point for someone who believes that homosexuality is sinful to act upon to come out?

Nope, but for some reason it is believed everyone wants to know.

[Kerdy]

Is there even a point for someone who believes that homosexuality is sinful to act upon to come out?

People shouldn't have to come to terms with such things alone, for one.

But one does not have to take the journey alone and at the same time not have to announce their preferences to the world.  This is what friends and clergy are for.  However, there is something to say for a person who is seeking to lead a holy life rather than seeking acceptance.  I think a lot of it will have to do with the "why" and the
how".

[Kerdy]

Is there even a point for someone who believes that homosexuality is sinful to act upon to come out?

Have you ever tried keeping a substantial secret about yourself from everyone?

I have. More than once. Nothing immoral or criminal, mind you. I've also kept secrets about others countless times.

Life is full of secrets of all kinds.  For instance, there are a lot of things I am not at liberty to talk to my wife about in regards to my job.  After all these years, she accepts, "I can’t talk about it" as an answer.

[AustralianDiaspora]

Funny this should come up on the recent posts board as a topic today. I had no intention of discussing my sexual orientation here but since I was outed by another member of the board, I might as well contribute.

I'm not gay, though I am queer and part of that is same-sex attraction. The Priest of my own parish says that if I want to be Orthodox I can't be in a relationship with someone of the same gender, though when you travel in the circles I do where gender and sex is not an absolute that doesn't mean a whole lot. I have never discussed my gender with my Priest as I don't see the point. I know other Priests personally who are gay themselves (though not in relationships) and see the attitude of certain people, including Priests, within the church to be inertia. I've also heard stories of Priests blessing homosexual relationships and considering them to be as valid as marriage. I have no desire to get into a debate with anyone about this though as it is too sensitive a topic for me. Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

[Cyrillic]

I have never discussed my gender with my Priest as I don't see the point.

The priest doesn't know whether you're a man or a woman? 

[Jetavan]

I have never discussed my gender with my Priest as I don't see the point.

The priest doesn't know whether you're a man or a woman? 

Why is that relevant?

[Cyrillic]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

[LBK]

I've also heard stories of Priests blessing homosexual relationships and considering them to be as valid as marriage.

Were they Orthodox priests?

FYI, a couple of years ago, an Orthodox priest in Russia performed a same-sex "marriage" in the church he served in. Word quickly got out to many people, including the priest's bishop. The priest was swiftly defrocked, and the church in which he had conducted the ceremony was razed to the ground.

This is not bigotry on the part of the bishop, but a case of him upholding established Orthodox teaching on the matter, and properly dealing with a grave violation of practice and proper conduct on the part of the priest.

[Cyrillic]

The priest was swiftly defrocked, and the church in which he had conducted the ceremony was razed to the ground.

LOL.

[Jetavan]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

The gender of some people is quite hard to determine.

[Cyrillic]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

The gender of some people is quite hard to determine.

 

[AustralianDiaspora]

I have never discussed my gender with my Priest as I don't see the point.

The priest doesn't know whether you're a man or a woman?  

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I will answer this question on the assumption that you are serious. My Priest knows my physical sex, because I have all the physical characteristics of femaleness. What I meant was, I do not feel comfortable having those gendered characteristics but since I am not seeking to change myself to appear more masculine or have gender reassignment surgery at any point in my life, I don't see a reason to bring it up. Of course, it is true that for some people, gender is difficult to determine either because they appear androgynous or because they are intersexed (neither biologically male or female).

were they Orthodox Priests?

Yes. This is something I have heard second-hand. I don't know the surrounding circumstances. I do know that there are ordained gay Orthodox Priests who are celibate.

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law. I haven't been able to find an official statement of any kind either condoning or condemning homosexuality. Would anyone be so kind as to provide some information on this?

[jmbejdl]

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law.

You assume wrongly. The EP is not an Orthodox equivalent to the Pope of Rome.

James

[AustralianDiaspora]

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law.

You assume wrongly. The EP is not an Orthodox equivalent to the Pope of Rome.

James

I am aware of that, and I am aware that the idea of a Pope is inconsistent with Orthodox theology. What I meant, and didn't clearly express, is that while the Echumenical Patriarch is not in any way a stand-in for Christ, he is the highest authority there is on earth. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[LBK]

but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law.

No, he doesn't. He has equal spiritual authority to every other Orthodox patriarch, and, in the strictest sense, every other Orthodox bishop. It is commonly reported in the secular media that the EP is some sort of Orthodox Pope, but this is not at all true.

I haven't been able to find an official statement of any kind either condoning or condemning homosexuality. Would anyone be so kind as to provide some information on this?

From the document Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church, issued in 2000 by the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church. It covers a variety of matters, including "modern" matters of morality and conduct.

XII. 9. Holy Scriptures and the teaching of the Church unequivocally deplore homosexual relations, seeing in them a vicious distortion of the God-created human nature.

«If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination» (Lev. 20:13). The Bibles relates a story about a heavy punishment to which God subjected the people of Sodom (Gen. 19:1-19) precisely for the sin of sodomy. St. Paul, describing the moral condition of the Gentiles, names homosexual relations among the most «vile affections» and «fornications» defiling the human body: «Their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise the men, leaving the natural use of women, burned in their lust one towards another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet» (Rom. 1:26-27). «Be not deceived: neither effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind… shall inherit the kingdom of God», wrote the apostle to the people of corrupted Corinth (1 Cor. 6:9-10). The patristic tradition equally clearly and definitely denounces any manifestation of homosexuality. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, the works of Sts Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa and Blessed Augustine and the canon of St. John the Faster — all express the unchangeable teaching of the Church that homosexual relations are sinful and should be condemned. People involved in them have not right to be members of the clergy (Gregory the Great, Canon 7; Gregory of Nyssa, Canon 4; John the Faster, Canon 30). Addressing those who stained themselves with the sin of sodomy, the St. Maxim the Greek made this appeal: «See at yourselves, damned ones, what a foul pleasure you indulge in! Try to give up as soon as possible this most nasty and stinking pleasure of yours, to hate it and to fulminate eternally those who argue that it is innocent as enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and corrupters of His teaching. Cleanse yourselves of this blight by repentance, ardent tears, alms-giving as much as you can and pure prayer… Hate this unrighteousness with all your heart, so that you may not be sons of damnation and eternal death».

The debate on the status of the so-called sexual minorities in contemporary society tends to recognise homosexuality not as a sexual perversion but only one of the «sexual orientations» which have the equal right to public manifestation and respect. It is also argued that the homosexual drive is caused by the individual inborn predisposition. The Orthodox Church proceeds from the invariable conviction that the divinely established marital union of man and woman cannot be compared to the perverted manifestations of sexuality. She believes homosexuality to be a sinful distortion of human nature, which is overcome by spiritual effort leading to the healing and personal growth of the individual. Homosexual desires, just as other passions torturing fallen man, are healed by the Sacraments, prayer, fasting, repentance, reading of Holy Scriptures and patristic writings, as well as Christian fellowship with believers who are ready to give spiritual support.

While treating people with homosexual inclinations with pastoral responsibility, the Church is resolutely against the attempts to present this sinful tendency as a «norm» and even something to be proud of and emulate. This is why the Church denounces any propaganda of homosexuality. Without denying anybody the fundamental rights to life, respect for personal dignity and participation in public affairs, the Church, however, believes that those who propagate the homosexual way of life should not be admitted to educational and other work with children and youth, nor to occupy superior posts in the army and reformatories.

Sometimes perverted human sexuality is manifested in the form of the painful feeling of one's belonging to the opposite sex, resulting in an attempt to change one's sex (transsexuality). One's desire to refuse the sex that has been given him or her by the Creator can have pernicious consequences for one's further development. «The change of sex» through hormonal impact and surgical operation has led in many cases not to the solution of psychological problems, but to their aggravation, causing a deep inner crisis. The Church cannot approve of such a «rebellion against the Creator» and recognise as valid the artificially changed sexual affiliation. If «a change of sex» happened in a person before his or her Baptism, he or she can be admitted to this Sacrament as any other sinner, but the Church will baptise him or her as belonging to his or her sex by birth. The ordination of such a person and his or her marriage in church are inadmissible.

Transsexuality should be distinguished from the wrong identification of the sex in one's infancy as a result of doctors' mistake caused by a pathological development of sexual characteristics. The surgical correction in this case is not a change of sex.

Link to the whole document:

http://mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/about/

[jmbejdl]

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law.

You assume wrongly. The EP is not an Orthodox equivalent to the Pope of Rome.

James

I am aware of that, and I am aware that the idea of a Pope is inconsistent with Orthodox theology. What I meant, and didn't clearly express, is that while the Echumenical Patriarch is not in any way a stand-in for Christ, he is the highest authority there is on earth. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I'd still say you were mistaken. He isn't a higher authority than any other Patriarch. If there's a Pan-Orthodox synod he has the right to chair but he certainly has no direct authority over Patriarch Daniel of my church, for instance. The highest authority on earth would be a Pan-Orthodox synod, not any individual bishop.

James

[Jetavan]

I haven't been able to find an official statement of any kind either condoning or condemning homosexuality. Would anyone be so kind as to provide some information on this?

There's nothing condemning the mere fact of same-sex attraction, to my knowledge.

[AustralianDiaspora]

Thank you James I understand now that the Echumenical Patriarch does not have any more authority than any of the others (what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

LBK, If this statement was released by the Russian Orthodox, does that mean it is applicable to all of the Orthodox churches? If not, are there similar statements that have been released by say, the Greek Orthodox church?

Jetavan, I should have made a distinction between homosexuality as an orientation and homosexual behaviour. Thanks for your post.

[Cyrillic]

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the absence of Christ, defines Orthodox law. I haven't been able to find an official statement of any kind either condoning or condemning homosexuality. Would anyone be so kind as to provide some information on this?

Only in the dreams of the EP 

[LBK]

(what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

The EP is considered "first among equals" among his fellow bishops. He has a primacy of honor, but not supreme in power or authority over his fellow bishops.

[AustralianDiaspora]

(what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

The EP is considered "first among equals" among his fellow bishops. He has a primacy of honor, but not supreme in power or authority over his fellow bishops.

Forgive me, but what do you mean by primacy of honor? I imagine that the title would suggest certain responsibility (or mistakenly, decision-making) for it be necessary?

[LBK]

(what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

The EP is considered "first among equals" among his fellow bishops. He has a primacy of honor, but not supreme in power or authority over his fellow bishops.

Forgive me, but what do you mean by primacy of honor? I imagine that the title would suggest certain responsibility (or mistakenly, decision-making) for it be necessary?

Many centuries ago, Constantinople was considered the center of Orthodox Christendom, so the Patriarch of Constantinople was given this honor. Constantinople, now Istanbul, is no longer the seat of Empire, but the Patriarch's title remains. It's little more than a historical relic.

Other patriarchs, such as those of Antioch and Alexandria, have similar fulsome and poetic titles.

[sheenj]

(what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

The EP is considered "first among equals" among his fellow bishops. He has a primacy of honor, but not supreme in power or authority over his fellow bishops.

Forgive me, but what do you mean by primacy of honor? I imagine that the title would suggest certain responsibility (or mistakenly, decision-making) for it be necessary?

Basically, he gets to sit at the head of the table whenever there is a meeting of Bishops.

[genesisone]

(what then is the purpose of the title if you would be so kind?)

The EP is considered "first among equals" among his fellow bishops. He has a primacy of honor, but not supreme in power or authority over his fellow bishops.

Forgive me, but what do you mean by primacy of honor? I imagine that the title would suggest certain responsibility (or mistakenly, decision-making) for it be necessary?

Imagine a military dinner. Five generals are invited and accept the invitation. Who gets served first? What is the proper seating order? They have their ways of working that out, of course, and heaven help anyone who doesn't get it right!

Or similarly in diplomatic circles: five ambassadors - who gets the best seat?

I believe "ecumenical" came about simply because the Patriarch of Constantinople was the Bishop of the Imperial (Ecumenical) capital city.

[AustralianDiaspora]

Thank you all for your illuminating explanations

[orthonorm]

The priest was swiftly defrocked, and the church in which he had conducted the ceremony was razed to the ground.

LOL.

This is funny?

[orthonorm]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

The gender of some people is quite hard to determine.

Sex can be at times, although rarely so.

Gender is an academic construct, which I guess academia being part of society, although marginally so, makes it a social construct, which proves their thesis.

Judith Butler made a mint off of a tepid thesis, so I guess good for herim.

[Cyrillic]

The priest was swiftly defrocked, and the church in which he had conducted the ceremony was razed to the ground.

LOL.

This is funny?

Bizarre and ridiculous more like it.

[Shanghaiski]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

The gender of some people is quite hard to determine.

Not according to the Church's perspective.

[orthonorm]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I will answer this question on the assumption that you are serious. My Priest knows my physical sex, because I have all the physical characteristics of femaleness. What I meant was, I do not feel comfortable having those gendered characteristics

This thread will likely get split off, but really this the crux of the matter and where much of gender theory is just out to lunch. All characteristics, if we are going to use such loaded language, are gendered. Being 6' tall is a gendered characteristic. It can be placed with a genus, actually many.

I've not the time to take up the problem in even a basic manner right now, but I am sad that we live in a society where those who should be aware more than others of the gendered quality of all things, would choose to reduce gender to two, maybe, three, or four categories.

The problem is not how to align one's sex with one's gender or the other way around, but how to show this whole gendering business in the first place is radically groundless and that gender has indeed a performative role, but ontologically the notion of all gendered qualities is quite unthought.

This could be approached theologically and thus within the gendering manner of the Trinity or philosophically and thus within the field of being and how something like a genus arises in the first place and how it comes to gender the beings within its field.

[orthonorm]

How could the priest not know whether he's a man or a woman? It just strikes me as weird.

The gender of some people is quite hard to determine.

Not according to the Church's perspective.

Nonsense. You mustn't be well read in gender theory.

Again, for another time perhaps.

[AustralianDiaspora]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I will answer this question on the assumption that you are serious. My Priest knows my physical sex, because I have all the physical characteristics of femaleness. What I meant was, I do not feel comfortable having those gendered characteristics

This thread will likely get split off, but really this the crux of the matter and where much of gender theory is just out to lunch. All characteristics, if we are going to use such loaded language, are gendered. Being 6' tall is a gendered characteristic. It can be placed with a genus, actually many.

I've not the time to take up the problem in even a basic manner right now, but I am sad that we live in a society where those who should be aware more than others of the gendered quality of all things, would choose to reduce gender to two, maybe, three, or four categories.

The problem is not how to align one's sex with one's gender or the other way around, but how to show this whole gendering business in the first place is radically groundless and that gender has indeed a performative role, but ontologically the notion of all gendered qualities is quite unthought.

This could be approached theologically and thus within the gendering manner of the Trinity or philosophically and thus within the field of being and how something like a genus arises in the first place and how it comes to gender the beings within its field.

You're right that this is a diversion, apologies for that, but isn't stating that gender is just a performance basically saying that trans* people only exist because of the supposedly false concept of gender? I may be taking what you said the wrong way, but my understanding is that performance is merely one aspect of gender. Whether or not gender is a social construct or not doesn't make it any less real; language is a social construct too but it's also one that human beings are naturally inclined towards.
Please don't take this to be argumentative as that's not the spirit in which I say it by any means. I am honestly asking your opinion

[Cyrillic]

Thanks everyone. My brain has melted by reading all of this.

[orthonorm]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I will answer this question on the assumption that you are serious. My Priest knows my physical sex, because I have all the physical characteristics of femaleness. What I meant was, I do not feel comfortable having those gendered characteristics

This thread will likely get split off, but really this the crux of the matter and where much of gender theory is just out to lunch. All characteristics, if we are going to use such loaded language, are gendered. Being 6' tall is a gendered characteristic. It can be placed with a genus, actually many.

I've not the time to take up the problem in even a basic manner right now, but I am sad that we live in a society where those who should be aware more than others of the gendered quality of all things, would choose to reduce gender to two, maybe, three, or four categories.

The problem is not how to align one's sex with one's gender or the other way around, but how to show this whole gendering business in the first place is radically groundless and that gender has indeed a performative role, but ontologically the notion of all gendered qualities is quite unthought.

This could be approached theologically and thus within the gendering manner of the Trinity or philosophically and thus within the field of being and how something like a genus arises in the first place and how it comes to gender the beings within its field.

You're right that this is a diversion, apologies for that, but isn't stating that gender is just a performance basically saying that trans* people only exist because of the supposedly false concept of gender? I may be taking what you said the wrong way, but my understanding is that performance is merely one aspect of gender. Whether or not gender is a social construct or not doesn't make it any less real; language is a social construct too but it's also one that human beings are naturally inclined towards.
Please don't take this to be argumentative as that's not the spirit in which I say it by any means. I am honestly asking your opinion

Sorry, not a lot of time.

To the bolded portion of my statement. I didn't say gender was merely performative, but anyone who has read the literature on the subject would know that is the oft "insight" in which the Anglo-American tradition begins. (The Continental is a bit more confused, as you have de Beauvoir applying a strictly existential proper construct to sex which most would now read as gender; however, in existentialism as such even something like sex would be something one becomes.) And performative roles are socially constructed, so I really don't see you problem with my statement. I wasn't claiming to offer a full analysis of gender, but linking a key element within gender studies inside my post.

And your second criticism I don't understand either in light of the colored portion of my post where I echo my previous explicit statement that all "characteristics" are in fact gendered, in so far as one takes seriously those "thinkers" in gender studies. However, I don't think they have properly ontologically (un)grounded their discussion save for one or maybe two thinkers who have touched on the subject. So yes, I think gender studies amounts like most X studies to much nonsense and lacks any rigor in method in light of novelty of subject. So anything one can state about gender how it is typically construed by gender theorists could applied to any "characteristic" humans have.

It is such an empty state of affairs to include everything which is to say excludes everything.

[orthonorm]

The priest was swiftly defrocked, and the church in which he had conducted the ceremony was razed to the ground.

LOL.

This is funny?

Bizarre and ridiculous more like it.

It's a bit frightening and idiotic. But I get your point.

[brastaseptim]

For the record, I'm bisexual. A chaste bisexual, mind you. My own priest is sort of halfway between indifferent and mildly disapproving.

[William]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

[JamesR]

I'm not homosexual but from the looks of it, I might be a pedo if I'm attracted to a 14-15 year old girl and I'm close to 17.

[Jetavan]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

Isn't Perun, Elijah?

[Shiny]

Uh oh orthonorm is writing in paragraphs.

[mike]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

Isn't Perun, Elijah?

+1

[sheenj]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

Isn't Perun, Elijah?

+1

So we're all cool with worshiping Elijah now?

[LBK]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

Isn't Perun, Elijah?

No. Perun is a pagan god, Elijah is an OT prophet. They have a common association with fire - so what?

[orthonorm]

Uh oh orthonorm is writing in paragraphs.

Under protest do I chop my sentences up with periods.

[orthonorm]

Suffice to say there are many points of view regarding homosexuality within the Church, and the most important thing is leave personal matters between the individual, their spiritual father and God and it is not for anyone else to judge or assume.

Just like there are many points of view regarding whether it's okay to worship Perun in the Church.

Isn't Perun, Elijah?

+1

So we're all cool with worshiping Elijah now?

Seems like Orthodox would be.


(Here is where people argue over the meaning of worship in light of something Chaucer wrote.)

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