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Author Topic: how sure are you that you will never change a denomination?  (Read 5189 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2013, 09:42:34 PM »

Well, I've already failed today, so that's out of the way.

Now we can move on.
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« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2013, 10:29:55 PM »

Because I have taken my time in figuring things out, and have attempted to be meticulous in the process, I am confident that wherever I end up (likely Eastern Catholicism) will be for good.

Catholicism? I thought you were an Orthodox. unless i am mistaken.
No, I am not Orthodox. As I have said in other threads, I have studied Orthodoxy quite a bit and continue to study it, but in the end I found myself leaning towards Rome. That being said, I still have a great love for the Eastern Christian tradition, which is why I feel at home as an Eastern Catholic.


what does your priest think about this position of yours? is he ok with you being an easter catholic, rather than Roman Catholic? Or have you not told him?
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« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2013, 10:50:29 PM »

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?
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« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2013, 10:59:43 PM »

Ah so now you get to determine what is a fact? So much more for the scientific method and all of the progress we've made...  Wink

Nope, Actually Science(Creation ex Nihilo, First Uncaused Cause, The Shroud, "macro-evolution" being a myth, Intelligent Design Fact, Mind-Body Dualism being a Fact/Mind is Immaterial), Philosophy("naturalism" is impossible, Morality), History(The Bible, Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Fact of Life), Logical(Ontological, God has to necessarily exist) determines what is Fact, and Science says that Factually, 100%, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is The Objective Truth.

now, what proof and evidence is there against these Facts?

None.

although I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I want you to prove it to me. Can you give me proof outside the world of religion. Give me historians talking about some guy who happenned to be raised from the dead, in jerusalem. and who have scientific evidence, to support it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 11:00:45 PM by tweety234 » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2013, 11:02:04 PM »

what does your priest think about this position of yours? is he ok with you being an easter catholic, rather than Roman Catholic? Or have you not told him?

Er ... Eastern ("Easter") Catholics are part of the Roman Catholic Church, so I don't know why his priest wouldn't be OK with it.
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« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2013, 11:10:46 PM »

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?

The ultimate freedom to do whatever I want without having to worry about repercussions in the next life and guilt. If I ever converted to atheism, it would probably be more out of desire--my mind WANTING God to not exist so I could do what I want--opposed to actually believing that He doesn't exist.
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« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2013, 11:16:15 PM »

"atheist" worship nothingness
The atheists I know worship ("give worth to") reason and compassion.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.
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« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2013, 11:30:59 PM »

"atheist" worship nothingness
The atheists I know worship ("give worth to") reason and compassion.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

Says you.
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« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2013, 11:40:19 PM »

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?

The ultimate freedom to do whatever I want without having to worry about repercussions in the next life and guilt. If I ever converted to atheism, it would probably be more out of desire--my mind WANTING God to not exist so I could do what I want--opposed to actually believing that He doesn't exist.
What about repercussions in this life?
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« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2013, 08:16:32 AM »

"atheist" worship nothingness
The atheists I know worship ("give worth to") reason and compassion.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

Compassion probably wasn't the right word. But we give worship go to God, out of which springs forth love and compassion. This shouldn't be a rejection of reason, but it does place the priorities of reason. That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous. We study the universe as a marvel of creation, not as an exercise of our ego.

God then sets the boundaries and focus in life, not what we determine from our own flawed reasoning with the lack of knowledge we receive confused with our emotions.
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« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2013, 09:49:16 AM »

That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous.
Shouldn't we love people because of both faith and reason?
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« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2013, 10:47:21 AM »

"atheist" worship nothingness
The atheists I know worship ("give worth to") reason and compassion.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

Is reason influenced by demonic powers and wisdom?
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« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2013, 03:23:31 PM »

Ah so now you get to determine what is a fact? So much more for the scientific method and all of the progress we've made...  Wink

Nope, Actually Science(Creation ex Nihilo, First Uncaused Cause, The Shroud, "macro-evolution" being a myth, Intelligent Design Fact, Mind-Body Dualism being a Fact/Mind is Immaterial), Philosophy("naturalism" is impossible, Morality), History(The Bible, Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Fact of Life), Logical(Ontological, God has to necessarily exist) determines what is Fact, and Science says that Factually, 100%, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is The Objective Truth.

now, what proof and evidence is there against these Facts?

None.

although I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I want you to prove it to me. Can you give me proof outside the world of religion. Give me historians talking about some guy who happenned to be raised from the dead, in jerusalem. and who have scientific evidence, to support it.
Tweety, not that I agree with SBC94's approach, theories or rants, but are you really unaware of these historians, or just pulling SBC'S chain?
I'm referring to Josephus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Eusebius, et al...
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« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2013, 03:25:06 PM »

That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous.
Shouldn't we love people because of both faith and reason?
One does not need (a) reason to love. Love can exist without reason.
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« Reply #104 on: January 07, 2013, 03:35:41 PM »

Are you more than 1000% sure?

I have learned to never say never.  When I decided to become more serious with my faith I said that I will never be anything else than a Roman Catholic.  In 2010, because of my growing knowledge of the faith I said I wanted to visit Eastern Catholic Churches, which at that time I recently learned about, and learn more about them.  The moment I stepped onto a Ukrainian Catholic Church I wanted to become part of it.  In 2011, all I every want to become is Ukrainian Catholic.  And in 2012 I first stepped inside an Orthodox parish.  I even told the priest I am not looking to become Orthodox.  But here I am in 2013 about to be received as a catechumen in the OCA.

Am I Orthodox for life?  At this point I would want to, but given my journey I will just take everything day by day.  Who knows, maybe God wants me somewhere else at some point in the future.  So today I know that I want to be Orthodox.  As Scripture says, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow (paraphrasing here), so what will I be tomorrow I don't know and I don't want to worry about.
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« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2013, 07:07:03 PM »

Are you more than 1000% sure?

I have learned to never say never.  When I decided to become more serious with my faith I said that I will never be anything else than a Roman Catholic.  In 2010, because of my growing knowledge of the faith I said I wanted to visit Eastern Catholic Churches, which at that time I recently learned about, and learn more about them.  The moment I stepped onto a Ukrainian Catholic Church I wanted to become part of it.  In 2011, all I every want to become is Ukrainian Catholic.  And in 2012 I first stepped inside an Orthodox parish.  I even told the priest I am not looking to become Orthodox.  But here I am in 2013 about to be received as a catechumen in the OCA.

Am I Orthodox for life?  At this point I would want to, but given my journey I will just take everything day by day.  Who knows, maybe God wants me somewhere else at some point in the future.  So today I know that I want to be Orthodox.  As Scripture says, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow (paraphrasing here), so what will I be tomorrow I don't know and I don't want to worry about.

thank you for your meaningful response. I appreciate it.
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« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2013, 07:53:17 PM »

I hope I'll be Orthodox Christian for all the rest of my life becasue it's my home. I don't know what or who could convice me to leave the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2013, 01:04:45 AM »

I am 100% NOT SURE.

I can promise it will be some type of Christian.  Despite my arguments you never know I could rejoin Orthodoxy.   I'm in a lot of deep study, and do argue a lot... Lots of pain & questions.   So where I am at, where I was once in Orthodoxy, I can't ever say I would not change.

I COULD NOT go to a non-Christian faith or Atheism.
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« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2013, 02:17:22 PM »

To refute your opinions would involve presenting countering ideas and support for them. is that correct?  Will you address things that people write that disagree with you?  If so, can we narrow it down to one at a time to focus a bit more?

How about History?  You have the Bible under History in your paragraph.  Yes the Bible exists but what do you know about the history of the Bible?  It was written and compiled over many centuries.  It was also translated into different languages. It is made up of different sorts of writing including poetry, praise, instruction and historical accounts. 
What do you really know about the history of the Bible?  Do you have a particular translation that you prefer?  If so, do you know how it came to be made?

Having translation problems mean nothing, we have Alot of Manuscripts, The Bible is the most accurate Historical Document in Ancient History, http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

Here is a link to a book on the history of the King James Version (which did include the Apocrypha by the way)  called "God's Secretaries"
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Secretaries-Making-James-Bible/dp/0060838736

I am starting with this translation because it is widely known.

I don't care about The King James Version, we got The Manuscripts, King James is therefore not needed  in this debate,

The problem now is just folks don't know how to easily Translate things, for example the best Translation now would be The NIV, yet it has problems, for example, http://www.jasonstaples.com/blog/2009/most-misinterpreted-bible-passages-1-matthew-527-28-18

Also,, Jesus Christ Resurrection is a Fact,

Going through every "naturalistic" myth and will leave The Resurrection as The Only Explanation, not best or most probable but Only Explanation.

proving that Jesus Christ existed and there was an empty tomb factually follows that He rose from the dead.

myth theory -

Different points of views, no contradiction from The Apostles means events happened. miracles are authentic as they are written in witness and have evidence of addition, exaggeration, or lies.

Josephus proves Jesus Christ was crucified, no matter what you say this man was a Jew, had no biased or presupposition.

Nazareth Inscription proves empty tomb.

Women found the tomb empty, this irrefutable, criteria of embarrassment

Matthew 28:11-18 proves without a doubt there was an empty tomb, Matthew refutes the Jews, no matter what you say or what you think he REFUTES what the Jews were saying, which proves, the Jews were claiming they stole the tomb. a common presupposition and excuse.

My fellow Christians told the truth of The Resurrection and the Jews spread the stolen tomb myth, either way EMPTY TOMB, of who? Jesus Christ, why was there a tomb? He was crucified, why? because the Jews thought He committed blasphemy why was there an empty tomb? we will get to that next. Apostles died for their beliefs and appearances are genuine(will get to it next)

"myth theory" is long gone and dead. if you EVER claim myth then you are a presuppositional delusional hypocritical, the words could go on and on.

myth "theory" is now an impossible myth.


conspiracy theory - 1, No one could have stolen the tomb as it was blocked by roman guards.

2, Apostles had nothing to gain, criteria of embarrassment, they were shamed and were against all evil, sin.

3, They died for their beliefs, 11 of the 12 Apostles died for their beliefs, no one dies for a known lie, they really believed in The Resurrection added that with the facts of the appearances.

4, Appearances to Women, proves Apostles were telling the truth

5, James, the brother of Jesus Christ in The Gospels is a skeptic, outside of it he's a believer(Letters, Church, and Josephus) Jesus had to have appeared to him.

6, Paul, a prosecutor of Christians becomes a Christian himself and becomes a leading preacher of Christianity going through all kinds of suffering and ultimately death for his beliefs.

7, Apostles believed in The Resurrection despite every predispostion to the contrary, no one believed The Messiah was going to die, be God, or much less Resurrect from the dead. no one believed in The Resurrection until the end of world, the general Resurrection.

Apostles believed The Resurrection happened, myth and conspiracy theories are now myths, if you want to argue you can only use your last 3 "naturalistic" myths when arguing with me because the myth and conspiracy theories are dead myths now, using them or believing them exposes you as a hypocrite as those are now Impossible Explanations.


Now we have a few facts,

Jesus Christ was crucified
There was an Empty Tomb
Jesus Christ appeared alive after His death to several people
Apostles really believed in The Resurrection


last 3 which are easily refutatable.

"twin brother/lookalike" theory - Apostles knew Jesus, saw Him perform more miracles, Empty Tomb and no one could have stolen the tomb, had same wounds, no known twin brother as James, Jesus half brother, would take that into consideration. and theory is a stretch.

"twin brother/lookalike" theory is a myth

swoon theory - Apostles saw Jesus Christ die, He was anointed, stabbed in chest pouring blood and water confirming death, romans made sure you die when crucified, even if survived would have been impossible to escape tomb, would've died later, would not convince apostles, and Jesus Christ Ascended.

swoon theory is now a myth

last theory that if I disprove I prove The Resurrection happened.

hallucination theory - Apostles were in their right minds, died for their beliefs, hallucinations are fast and quick, Thomas for example put his hand in Jesus side, you don't have multiple hallucinations about the same thing, and finally multiple people do not hallucinate about the same thing.

EVERY Single "naturalistic" "theory" has been made a myth of.

There is one Irrefutable Explanation, not the best but The Only Explanation is that Jesus Christ died on the cross and Resurrected from the dead, therefore proving everything in The Bible as a fact.

Jesus Christ Resurrected from the dead.

add that with The Shroud which has no evidence of forgery, not a painting, cannot be reproduced with any type of technology, and caused by a burst of light from the dead body causing an image like a photography.

With The facts of The Bible's inerrancy and no contradiction, The Sense it makes, reliable Testimony/Accounts, Scientific Accuracy and foreknowledge, Historical Accuracy and foreknowledge, God's existence and failure of other religions making Christianity the only factual possibility, Physical evidence in The Shroud and Only Explanation being The Resurrection, it is indeniable, God Exists, Jesus Christ is Lord, Our Savior who died for our sins on the cross, Jesus Christ is the 2nd person of God, and that God is The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.



So on history you've been refuted, pick another area now.


for those who believe indeed an empty tomb is a sign of resurrection. For  some others who are looking for reasons why they should except christ as the God. An empty tomb is not enough, because an empty tomb could be emptied by someone else who loved power and authority, and wanted to control the masses by making something appear as truth. So there is no proof. Scientifically at least. It is all a matter of what we believe (faith). And most of us believe what makes sense. And if jesus is the son of God, then yes resurrecting makes perfect sense, even if he never said that he would.
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« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2013, 02:21:03 PM »

I am 100% NOT SURE.

I can promise it will be some type of Christian.  Despite my arguments you never know I could rejoin Orthodoxy.   I'm in a lot of deep study, and do argue a lot... Lots of pain & questions.   So where I am at, where I was once in Orthodoxy, I can't ever say I would not change.

I COULD NOT go to a non-Christian faith or Atheism.

regarding the last sentence: if you believe in christ as the true God, it's the most probable that you can't become an atheist, or non christian. On the other hand, a doubt is what keeps me away from other religions, not a warm faith. Although christianity makes more sense because, it seems to be the only one that recognizes and cares about our human rights. And doesn't consider us a big nothing.
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« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »

That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous.
Shouldn't we love people because of both faith and reason?
One does not need (a) reason to love. Love can exist without reason.

Indeed.
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« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2013, 10:16:27 PM »

I don't believe an Orthodox Christian can change denomination being a Christian without leaving the Church, and if he or she did, why would it matter?


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« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2013, 10:24:46 PM »

Even the most confident have a chance, you know. Smiley

I think it all depends on one's attitude.  I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature.  I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance. 
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« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2013, 11:00:17 PM »



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« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »

Even the most confident have a chance, you know. Smiley

I think it all depends on one's attitude.  I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature.  I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance. 

what do you consider the unimportant and superficial aspects?
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« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2013, 03:02:14 PM »

Are you more than 1000% sure?

More than 1,000,000% sure.

Orthodoxy or death.

In truth, without Christ, I am nothing....and I believe wholeheartedly that the Orthodox Faith is His One True Church.

Every moment of my day revolves around my Faith.  Every thing I do, how I do it, why I do it....all revolves around Orthodoxy.

I am blessed to be born in to a family who has been Orthodox for generations.  I feel each of my ancestors behind me.  When I pray...they all pray with me.  At the Eucharist, we all stand together before God.  We pray for them, they pray for us.

To take Orthodoxy from me, would be like sucking the air from my lungs.

I would die.

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« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2013, 03:27:20 PM »

As sure as I am of my own existence.
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« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2013, 07:24:42 PM »

As sure as I am of my own existence.

how sure are you about that? I think therefore I am won't do it.
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« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2013, 07:55:54 PM »

Even the most confident have a chance, you know. Smiley

I think it all depends on one's attitude.  I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature.  I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance. 

what do you consider the unimportant and superficial aspects?

Just things like a Church's ethnic identity, which is all well and fine, but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Orthodox Faith.  (Speaking from the American Orthodox perspective, that is, where my town has a Russian Church down the street from a Greek one.)
what do you consider the unimportant and superficial aspects?
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« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2013, 08:19:29 AM »

As sure as I am of my own existence.

how sure are you about that? I think therefore I am won't do it.

That's your problem.
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« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2013, 09:06:06 AM »

Quote
how sure are you that you will never change a denomination?


Why change it when you can start a new one?

Denominations.  Making new ones since the 16th century.
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« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2013, 09:06:48 AM »

Are you more than 1000% sure?

I am no longer part of a denomination.
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« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2013, 09:08:30 AM »



I agree with the hot chick. This gender confusion needs to stop.

Wrong thread. Grin
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« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »


I thought perhaps you were starting a new denomination.   Grin
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« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2013, 11:15:13 AM »

Orthodoxy for me is not a denomination, but a way of life, the way of life; it is true human nature. As for how sure I am that I will not change, I will say that it has to do with God's help for me, and I have faith that He will keep me in The Faith.
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« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2013, 01:04:49 PM »

Quote
how sure are you that you will never change a denomination?


Why change it when you can start a new one?

Denominations.  Making new ones since the 16th century.

so if you decide to change it you will make your own?
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« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2013, 01:56:43 PM »

To take Orthodoxy from me, would be like sucking the air from my lungs.

I would die.



I said the same about Catholicism not too long ago.  But its not like I'm open to becoming Evangelical or Pentecostal.  Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll be Coptic  Grin
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« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2013, 07:26:41 PM »

To take Orthodoxy from me, would be like sucking the air from my lungs.

I would die.



I said the same about Catholicism not too long ago.  But its not like I'm open to becoming Evangelical or Pentecostal.  Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll be Coptic  Grin

what is a coptic?
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« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2013, 07:29:52 PM »


Coptic Orthodox
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« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2013, 07:51:56 PM »


Coptic Orthodox


are they a different denomination? and what is the difference between them and the EO?
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« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2013, 08:18:08 PM »


Coptic Orthodox


are they a different denomination? and what is the difference between them and the EO?

They did not accept the council of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »

As sure as I am of my own existence.

how sure are you about that? I think therefore I am won't do it.

You can't arbitrarily dismiss airtight logical arguments on the basis of the same enlightened progressive attitude that you seem to think exempts you from the rules of capitalization and punctuation that bind lesser mortals.
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« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2013, 08:48:08 PM »


Coptic Orthodox


are they a different denomination? and what is the difference between them and the EO?

You do realize that Orthodoxy is not a "denomination", right?

The Orthodox Church is the One True Church of Christ.

Denominations have branched off from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2013, 09:06:43 PM »


Coptic Orthodox


are they a different denomination? and what is the difference between them and the EO?

You do realize that Orthodoxy is not a "denomination", right?

The Orthodox Church is the One True Church of Christ.

Denominations have branched off from Orthodoxy.





To me it's the same. They all believe in Jesus.
and second of all, you didn't answer about the coptics. What are they? and what is the difference  between them and the E0.
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« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2013, 09:09:23 PM »


To me it's the same. They all believe in Jesus.
and second of all, you didn't answer about the coptics. What are they? and what is the difference  between them and the E0.

I already answered.  They did not accept the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon.
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