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Author Topic: Questions About Papal Appointments by Secular Powers  (Read 542 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: January 04, 2013, 02:56:54 PM »

I was wondering if someone in the know could comment on the accuracy of this passage, and perhaps expand on it?

Quote
Otto the Great (912-73) then set about restoring the Empire, but with a difference. He sought and received the crown from Pope John XII at St. Peter's in 962. In return he guaranteed the independence of the papal states by confirming the donations of Pepin and CHarlemagne. But far from acknowledging papal supremacy, within a year Otto had Pope John deposed and a layman elected in his place. In addition, he declared that before being consecrated, future popes would first have to swear allegiance to the emperor. Successive monarchs after Otto the Great continued this system of secular appointments to the Church, not only in Germany, but throughout Europe...

-- Barrie Ruth Strauss, The Catholic Church: A Concise History, (Hippocrene Books, 1992), p. 60
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 03:13:28 PM »

I was wondering if someone in the know could comment on the accuracy of this passage, and perhaps expand on it?

Quote
Otto the Great (912-73) then set about restoring the Empire, but with a difference. He sought and received the crown from Pope John XII at St. Peter's in 962. In return he guaranteed the independence of the papal states by confirming the donations of Pepin and CHarlemagne. But far from acknowledging papal supremacy, within a year Otto had Pope John deposed and a layman elected in his place. In addition, he declared that before being consecrated, future popes would first have to swear allegiance to the emperor. Successive monarchs after Otto the Great continued this system of secular appointments to the Church, not only in Germany, but throughout Europe...

-- Barrie Ruth Strauss, The Catholic Church: A Concise History, (Hippocrene Books, 1992), p. 60

I haven't read the book you cite, but that does ring a bell from others I've read.

Here's my expanding upon it:  Politics, as usual  Wink.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 03:15:23 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 03:31:49 PM »

+{]Smiley> subscribed!
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 03:35:11 PM »

I bet it were less instances than patriarchal appointments by secular power, especially Constantinople has an impressive record in this area.
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 03:36:14 PM »

I bet it were less instances than patriarchal appointments by secular power, especially Constantinople has an impressive record in this area.

But Constantinople doesn't make the same claims about who they are and what powers and rights were given to them by God. Not many do anyway.  angel
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 03:40:39 PM »

Jus exclusivae
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 03:55:25 PM »

I bet it were less instances than patriarchal appointments by secular power, especially Constantinople has an impressive record in this area.

But Constantinople doesn't make the same claims about who they are and what powers and rights were given to them by God. Not many do anyway.  angel

I think that the "deposed" Pope was recognised until his death as the legitimate Pope like Pope Sylvester. I might be wrong, though.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 03:59:13 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 04:03:46 PM »

I bet it were less instances than patriarchal appointments by secular power, especially Constantinople has an impressive record in this area.

But Constantinople doesn't make the same claims about who they are and what powers and rights were given to them by God. Not many do anyway.  angel

I think that the "deposed" Pope was recognised until his death as the legitimate Pope like Pope Sylvester. I might be wrong, though.

This person speaks as though these types of appointments happened for like a century though, and that everyone just went along with it. I will say that, of the stuff I do know something about, I've found the person's claims to be questionable at times. So I figured I'd post here and ask for clarification. It seems like a fairly significant thing, to just be appointed by whatever secular authority, especially with the way some make a big deal about caeseropapism in the east.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 04:04:54 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 04:58:22 PM »

Several popes were indeed appointed by emperors (like in the Byzantine Papacy and later with the Holy Roman Emperors) and nobles (see the saeculum obscurum).
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 03:01:51 AM »

As far from ideal as it is for the temporal power to appoint the spiritual, I don't think it really affects Rome's special claims. Surely if we can accept that the Ecumenical Patriarchs appointed by the Turkish sultans were genuinely Ecumenical Patriarchs (even if not the best candidates), Rome can accept that Popes were chosen by poor means and yet genuinely Popes, with all that that entails.
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »

I was wondering if someone in the know could comment on the accuracy of this passage, and perhaps expand on it?

Quote
Otto the Great (912-73) then set about restoring the Empire, but with a difference. He sought and received the crown from Pope John XII at St. Peter's in 962. In return he guaranteed the independence of the papal states by confirming the donations of Pepin and CHarlemagne. But far from acknowledging papal supremacy, within a year Otto had Pope John deposed and a layman elected in his place. In addition, he declared that before being consecrated, future popes would first have to swear allegiance to the emperor. Successive monarchs after Otto the Great continued this system of secular appointments to the Church, not only in Germany, but throughout Europe...

-- Barrie Ruth Strauss, The Catholic Church: A Concise History, (Hippocrene Books, 1992), p. 60

That is not exactly what happened.  Pope John XII died as the legitimate pope and he deposed the illegitimate one even though for a time he had to flee.  The rest of the secular appointments are referring to the various bishops of Europe.  The struggle between the Pope and the Kings is often referred to as the "investiture conflict" and it was very ugly at Times, with many Saintly people having to suffer.
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 10:04:35 AM »

There is more to the story:

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On 6 November a synod composed of fifty Italian and German bishops was convened in St. Peter's; John was accused of sacrilege, simony, perjury, murder, adultery, and incest, and was summoned in writing to defend himself. Refusing to recognize the synod, John pronounced sentence of excommunication (ferendæ sententia) against all participators in the assembly, should they elect in his stead another pope. The emperor now came forward to accuse John of having broken the agreement ratified by oath, betrayed him, and called in Adalbert. With the imperial consent the synod deposed John on 4 December, and elected to replace him the protoscriniarius Leo, yet a layman. The latter received all the orders uncanonically without the proper intervals (interstitia), and was crowned pope as Leo VIII. This proceeding was aginst the canons of the Church, and the enthroning of Leo was almost universally regarded as invalid. Most of the imperial troops now departing from Rome, John's adherents rose against the emperor, but were suppressed on 3 January, 964, with bloodshed. Nevertheless, at Leo's request, Otto released the hundred hostages whom he had called for, and marched from Rome to meet Adalbert in the field. A new insurrection broke out in the city against the imperial party; Leo VIII fled, while John XII re-entered Rome, and took bloody vengeance on the leaders of the opposite party. Cardinal-Deacon John had his right hand struck off, Bishop Otgar of Speyer was scourged, a high palatine official lost nose and ears. On 26 February, 964, John held a synod in St. Peter's in which the decrees of the synod of 6 November were repealed; Leo VIII and all who had elected him were excommunicated; his ordination was pronounced invalid; and Bishop Sico of Ostia, who had consecrated him, was deprived forever of his dignities. The emperor, left free to act after his defeat of Berengarius, was preparing to re-enter Rome, when the pope's death changed the situation. John died on 14 May, 964, eight days after he had been, according to rumour, stricken by paralysis in the act of adultery. Luitprand relates that on that occasion the devil dealt him a blow on the temple in consequence of which he died.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426b.htm
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 10:13:15 AM »

Successive monarchs after Otto the Great continued this system of secular appointments to the Church, not only in Germany, but throughout Europe...

This is VERY vague...

But it is true that the metropolitan in Europe was took a special role within the country he presided. The monarch would often attempt to gain some control over the metropolitan, usually manifested in attempting to strengthen the metropolitan's control over the other bishops of the country and then controlling who the metropolitan was loyal. Through centuries of working in concert with monarchs attempting to control Church power and the fall of the Spanish and African particular churches, the Pope necessarily had to affirm his position with strength in order to maintain the church and it's faith.

Could strengthening papal powers have been necessary due to the nature of the western powers? Especially when those nation-states began subverting the church and creating their own churches (supporting the reformation).
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