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Author Topic: Personhood of Adam and Eve/Church teaching  (Read 488 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andrew Crook
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« on: January 04, 2013, 05:10:17 AM »

Dear all,

I was learning the other day that this is something all Roman Catholics are required to believe, here is a quote from Pope Pius the XII:

"When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).   I got this quote from http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

What does the Orthodox Church teach about Adam and Eve, in comparison? Are we also required to believe in their personhood, or is it theologoumemnon -- a matter of opinion and open to disagreement?  I for one have found it very difficult to accept after a recent understanding about what science currently teaches.

I'm just not sure how such an immense variety among humans can come from only 2 people, as the mutation among the genes would not be possible today at such a rate. Scientists are currently telling us that we all descended from several different humans who migrated out of Africa some 150,000 years ago or so.  Most of us can be traced back to what they have called "Mitochondrial Eve", but I don't think they mean that in the Biblical sense of the woman "Eve". Wikipedia says that Mitochondrial Eve is estimated to have lived around 200,000 years ago according to here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

I look forward to your replies!  Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 11:13:23 AM »

Dear all,

I was learning the other day that this is something all Roman Catholics are required to believe....
It's not something RCs are required to believe.

Jimmy Akin wrote about this. (The original webpage has disappeared, but luckily Akin's statement was saved.)

Quote
As I've pointed out before, Pius XII did not say that monogenism is a dogma of the faith ("de fide"). What he said was that Catholics did not have the liberty to discuss the idea that polygenism is true because it is "in no way apparent" how it could be reconciled with the sources of faith (HG 37).  I also pointed out that the Holy See has gone silent on this aspect of Pius XII's teaching on evolution, while maintaining the other elements of it, which may indicate that it is being rethought.Further, it should be pointed out that the Code of Canon Law expressly provides that "No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident" (CIC 749 §3).That being said, the issue of how the human gene pool got here and got as diverse as it is is an interesting question.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 11:23:53 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 11:16:33 AM »

"Mitochondrial Eve"

Was she fashioned from Adam's ribosome?
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 01:08:24 PM »

"Mitochondrial Eve"

Was she fashioned from Adam's ribosome?

 Cheesy
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Andrew Crook
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 04:51:11 PM »

Dear all,

I was learning the other day that this is something all Roman Catholics are required to believe....
It's not something RCs are required to believe.

Jimmy Akin wrote about this. (The original webpage has disappeared, but luckily Akin's statement was saved.)

Quote
As I've pointed out before, Pius XII did not say that monogenism is a dogma of the faith ("de fide"). What he said was that Catholics did not have the liberty to discuss the idea that polygenism is true because it is "in no way apparent" how it could be reconciled with the sources of faith (HG 37).  I also pointed out that the Holy See has gone silent on this aspect of Pius XII's teaching on evolution, while maintaining the other elements of it, which may indicate that it is being rethought.Further, it should be pointed out that the Code of Canon Law expressly provides that "No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident" (CIC 749 §3).That being said, the issue of how the human gene pool got here and got as diverse as it is is an interesting question.

Interesting, so it's still open up to debate and opinion?  That had always been one of the many obstacles for me, in accepting Rome's understanding of the Faith..
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 02:35:12 PM »

Dear all,

I was learning the other day that this is something all Roman Catholics are required to believe....
It's not something RCs are required to believe.

Jimmy Akin wrote about this. (The original webpage has disappeared, but luckily Akin's statement was saved.)

Quote
As I've pointed out before, Pius XII did not say that monogenism is a dogma of the faith ("de fide"). What he said was that Catholics did not have the liberty to discuss the idea that polygenism is true because it is "in no way apparent" how it could be reconciled with the sources of faith (HG 37).  I also pointed out that the Holy See has gone silent on this aspect of Pius XII's teaching on evolution, while maintaining the other elements of it, which may indicate that it is being rethought.Further, it should be pointed out that the Code of Canon Law expressly provides that "No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident" (CIC 749 §3).That being said, the issue of how the human gene pool got here and got as diverse as it is is an interesting question.

Interesting, so it's still open up to debate and opinion?  That had always been one of the many obstacles for me, in accepting Rome's understanding of the Faith..

Some things about the Faith are more difficult to understand than others.  Those things that we are required to accept, are for the most part, more easily understood.  At least that's been my own experience.

Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?  Pretty clearly written and easily understood.  If you're looking for a list of dogmas of the Catholic faith, your friend Google has a number of interesting suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 02:38:57 PM by J Michael » Logged

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Andrew Crook
formerly known as AveChriste11
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 05:32:50 PM »

Dear all,

I was learning the other day that this is something all Roman Catholics are required to believe....
It's not something RCs are required to believe.

Jimmy Akin wrote about this. (The original webpage has disappeared, but luckily Akin's statement was saved.)

Quote
As I've pointed out before, Pius XII did not say that monogenism is a dogma of the faith ("de fide"). What he said was that Catholics did not have the liberty to discuss the idea that polygenism is true because it is "in no way apparent" how it could be reconciled with the sources of faith (HG 37).  I also pointed out that the Holy See has gone silent on this aspect of Pius XII's teaching on evolution, while maintaining the other elements of it, which may indicate that it is being rethought.Further, it should be pointed out that the Code of Canon Law expressly provides that "No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident" (CIC 749 §3).That being said, the issue of how the human gene pool got here and got as diverse as it is is an interesting question.

Interesting, so it's still open up to debate and opinion?  That had always been one of the many obstacles for me, in accepting Rome's understanding of the Faith..

Some things about the Faith are more difficult to understand than others.  Those things that we are required to accept, are for the most part, more easily understood.  At least that's been my own experience.

Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?  Pretty clearly written and easily understood.  If you're looking for a list of dogmas of the Catholic faith, your friend Google has a number of interesting suggestions.

I understand what you mean, as for those things Catholics are required to accept -- the Vatican always uses very precise language in order to make itself clear.  I once read some of the material from the Council of Trent and was truly astonished, as it seemed that some of the best lawyers in the world came up with that.  Cheesy

Yes I have read the Catechism, at least the American version and it indeed has been helpful.  I may not agree with everything that goes on with the Catholic Church, but I can say even with the new Novus Ordo liturgy -- when celebrated properly, it can be wonderful.  I also will always hold a place for all things Western in my heart, as I don't believe that my Celtic and English ancestors were ever taught the Greek/Byzantine understanding that is propagated through St. Gregory Palamas and others.  So I know that before we were Protestants, it was the Church which "my people" belonged to.
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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity
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