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Author Topic: The Great and Holy Synod and Rome  (Read 2975 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2013, 04:10:06 AM »

I don't see any of these attempts at top-down reunification as likely to produce any fruit in our lifetimes, unless by "fruit" you mean ripping the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in twain, with Antioch, Constantinople, and their followers going one way and the Slavs and Jerusalemites and their followers going the other. But even that's a bit far-fetched.

Personally, I think the reunion is more likely to happen this way:

1. Rome grows more and more ecumenist and liberal over time.
2. Rome eventually does something egregiously and undeniably heretical, like ordaining women to the presbyterate.
3. Sensible Roman Catholics join the Orthodox Western Rite en masse.
4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.
5. The Eastern Catholics (referring here specifically to the non-Maronites, who were originally Orthodox and whose proper name may not here be spoken) flip back to Orthodoxy.

That said, this can only happen if Rome heads left, and at the moment, she seems slowly to be heading right, so reunion is not on the horizon.

I am worried about the Synod though.
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« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2013, 07:09:42 AM »

Don't worry, none of the Holy Orthodox Churches are advocating for real union with the Roman Catholic Church; and the dialogues have produced no common ground which could lead to reconciliation of the issues that divide the churches.  The Catholic Church is not going to acquiesce to renouncing the innovative dogmas they developed and the Orthodox Church is not going to accept their innovations, despite the rhetoric associated with the "Dialogue of Love" most apparent during the mutual exchange of delegations during the patronal feasts of the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople.
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« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2013, 08:27:49 AM »

Quote
1. Rome grows more and more ecumenist and liberal over time.
Something which is happening already.

Quote
2. Rome eventually does something egregiously and undeniably heretical, like ordaining women to the presbyterate.
Not with the current pontiff in office. But IMHO there will be a pontiff that will try to make this happen.

Quote
3. Sensible Roman Catholics join the Orthodox Western Rite en masse.
YAY! We need more Smiley I say J Michael and Papist should come over right away Smiley

Quote
4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.
Ehhhhh, depends on your definition of The West. If you mean western Europe, then yeah probably. If you mean the Americas, I dont think so. Many RC's of hispanic decent or transplants (like Italians for example) are pretty darn devoted.

Quote
5. The Eastern Catholics (referring here specifically to the non-Maronites, who were originally Orthodox and whose proper name may not here be spoken) flip back to Orthodoxy.
Where they belong Smiley

PP
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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2013, 08:48:16 AM »

I think that if the RC reached such an awful state, we would have parallel popes like in the Western schism and eventually one of them would reunite the church. People would not convert massivelly to Orthodoxy. To put trust in a "strong man to lead us" is not a Roman thing, it is a human thing and it is the temptation that got its expression and defines the Roman heresy. Those who truly feel codepedent in their faith toward this "strong man" will not give this up and this is a marking trait of all Latin cultures both in Europe and in the Americas who would probably form their own "popes", probably within some Western ethnic groups (a French pope, an Iberic pope, a German/Anglo-Saxon pope for the non-Latins, a Latin-American pope etc). Cut that out and people feel disoriented, depressed, desperate, but very few ever question the value of the "strong man" and just pray and wish another one will come.
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« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »

Quote
1. Rome grows more and more ecumenist and liberal over time.
Something which is happening already.

Quote
2. Rome eventually does something egregiously and undeniably heretical, like ordaining women to the presbyterate.
Not with the current pontiff in office. But IMHO there will be a pontiff that will try to make this happen.

Quote
3. Sensible Roman Catholics join the Orthodox Western Rite en masse.
YAY! We need more Smiley I say J Michael and Papist should come over right away Smiley

Quote
4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.
Ehhhhh, depends on your definition of The West. If you mean western Europe, then yeah probably. If you mean the Americas, I dont think so. Many RC's of hispanic decent or transplants (like Italians for example) are pretty darn devoted.

Quote
5. The Eastern Catholics (referring here specifically to the non-Maronites, who were originally Orthodox and whose proper name may not here be spoken) flip back to Orthodoxy.
Where they belong Smiley

PP

Hey, PP, thanks for the warm invitation  Wink.  For a number of reasons that I won't go into publicly I did flip to Orthodoxy, but it was a flop.  Sad, but true.  I'll stay with the Catholic Church and when possible, attend a Byzantine Catholic parish.

If, during my lifetime, some idiotic pope decides to ordain women to the priesthood  Shocked Roll Eyes...well, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
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« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »

Quote
Hey, PP, thanks for the warm invitation  .  For a number of reasons that I won't go into publicly I did flip to Orthodoxy, but it was a flop.  Sad, but true.  I'll stay with the Catholic Church and when possible, attend a Byzantine Catholic parish.

If, during my lifetime, some idiotic pope decides to ordain women to the priesthood   ...well, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
Fair enough buddy Smiley

PP
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« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2013, 05:23:11 PM »

Quote
Hey, PP, thanks for the warm invitation  .  For a number of reasons that I won't go into publicly I did flip to Orthodoxy, but it was a flop.  Sad, but true.  I'll stay with the Catholic Church and when possible, attend a Byzantine Catholic parish.

If, during my lifetime, some idiotic pope decides to ordain women to the priesthood   ...well, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
Fair enough buddy Smiley

PP
I was going to chime in with a "J Michael isn't a ping-pong ball" response to your earlier post, but now it looks like you two have already worked it out.
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« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »

4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.

Well, the Episcopal Church together with the Anglican Church of Cananda make up the most liberal 5% of the Anglican Communion, hence they're the farthest from Catholicism. If any Anglicans are at all similar to us it would be the 50% or so of them that are in Africa. (And of course a few small groups like the ACNA.)

5. The Eastern Catholics (referring here specifically to the non-Maronites, who were originally Orthodox and whose proper name may not here be spoken) flip back to Orthodoxy.

"Non-Maronite" is an insufficient qualifier. You'd really have to say "non-Maronite, non-Chaldean, non-Syro-Malabarese, Eastern Catholics." Just saying.
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« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2013, 05:30:35 PM »

Quote
Hey, PP, thanks for the warm invitation  .  For a number of reasons that I won't go into publicly I did flip to Orthodoxy, but it was a flop.  Sad, but true.  I'll stay with the Catholic Church and when possible, attend a Byzantine Catholic parish.

If, during my lifetime, some idiotic pope decides to ordain women to the priesthood   ...well, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
Fair enough buddy Smiley

PP
I was going to chime in with a "J Michael isn't a ping-pong ball" response to your earlier post, but now it looks like you two have already worked it out.

We were never at odds, but thanks for your considerate thought nonetheless  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2013, 05:32:59 PM »

*stuffs cotton in hears* Lalalalalalalalalala...

This makes me sad.  Undecided Why do we need union so badly that we seek these compromises? What is the point? The Church has been here for two thousand years for those that seek it. What is the point?

Hmm...

So is your position that, not only are protestants, Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox outside of the church, but in fact we don't even seek it?
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« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2013, 05:37:42 PM »

I think that if the RC reached such an awful state, we would have parallel popes like in the Western schism and eventually one of them would reunite the church. People would not convert massivelly to Orthodoxy. To put trust in a "strong man to lead us" is not a Roman thing, it is a human thing and it is the temptation that got its expression and defines the Roman heresy. Those who truly feel codepedent in their faith toward this "strong man" will not give this up and this is a marking trait of all Latin cultures both in Europe and in the Americas who would probably form their own "popes", probably within some Western ethnic groups (a French pope, an Iberic pope, a German/Anglo-Saxon pope for the non-Latins, a Latin-American pope etc). Cut that out and people feel disoriented, depressed, desperate, but very few ever question the value of the "strong man" and just pray and wish another one will come.

There's an old saying "Every protestants is his/her own pope" (or something like that).
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« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2013, 06:03:10 PM »

*stuffs cotton in hears* Lalalalalalalalalala...

This makes me sad.  Undecided Why do we need union so badly that we seek these compromises? What is the point? The Church has been here for two thousand years for those that seek it. What is the point?

Hmm...

So is your position that, not only are protestants, Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox outside of the church, but in fact we don't even seek it?
You're reading too far into it. The Orthodox Church is here for those that seek it. It wasn't intended as a dogmatic incitement.
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« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2013, 06:08:57 PM »

I think that if the RC reached such an awful state, we would have parallel popes like in the Western schism and eventually one of them would reunite the church. People would not convert massivelly to Orthodoxy. To put trust in a "strong man to lead us" is not a Roman thing, it is a human thing and it is the temptation that got its expression and defines the Roman heresy. Those who truly feel codepedent in their faith toward this "strong man" will not give this up and this is a marking trait of all Latin cultures both in Europe and in the Americas who would probably form their own "popes", probably within some Western ethnic groups (a French pope, an Iberic pope, a German/Anglo-Saxon pope for the non-Latins, a Latin-American pope etc). Cut that out and people feel disoriented, depressed, desperate, but very few ever question the value of the "strong man" and just pray and wish another one will come.
Really? In my experience, human nature seems to be the complete opposite. People are often very skeptical of any kind of authority and want to rebel against it. Perhaps this is just because of my Protestant background. The people I have grown up with are much more content just reading their Bible and "letting the Holy Spirit lead them" than submitting to a Priest, Bishop, or Pope.
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« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2013, 06:27:07 PM »

4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.

Well, the Episcopal Church together with the Anglican Church of Cananda make up the most liberal 5% of the Anglican Communion, hence they're the farthest from Catholicism. If any Anglicans are at all similar to us it would be the 50% or so of them that are in Africa. (And of course a few small groups like the ACNA.)

I didn't actually mean you'd become part of the Episcopal Church; it was a commentary on what you'd effectively be if you fell that far. So far you haven't, but recall that an earlier premise of this hypothetical was women's ordination and the exodus of conservative Catholics from the Church, so thinking you'd become like the Episcopalians after that is not unreasonable.

5. The Eastern Catholics (referring here specifically to the non-Maronites, who were originally Orthodox and whose proper name may not here be spoken) flip back to Orthodoxy.

"Non-Maronite" is an insufficient qualifier. You'd really have to say "non-Maronite, non-Chaldean, non-Syro-Malabarese, Eastern Catholics." Just saying.

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.
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« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2013, 09:51:13 PM »

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.

Not at all.  To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome.  Today's Eastern Catholics have never been Orthodox. 
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« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2013, 10:14:57 PM »

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.

Not at all.  To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome.  Today's Eastern Catholics have never been Orthodox. 

But their Churches were.
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« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2013, 10:52:57 PM »

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.

Not at all.  To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome.  Today's Eastern Catholics have never been Orthodox.  

But their Churches were.

But it's still a stretch to call them by the WWMNBW -- well, unless you're using that word in the sense that the New Catholic Dictionary used it. If that's the case, then you ought to be aware of another term used by that same dictionary.
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« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2013, 11:02:46 PM »

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.

Not at all.  To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome.  Today's Eastern Catholics have never been Orthodox.  

But their Churches were.

But it's still a stretch to call them by the WWMNBW -- well, unless you're using that word in the sense that the New Catholic Dictionary used it. If that's the case, then you ought to be aware of another term used by that same dictionary.

No, I'm not using their sense (which would, it seems, be identical to "Eastern Catholics").

I'm using it to mean "A Church (not an individual) which was once Orthodox and is now in communion with Rome, or a member of such a Church."

By Fr. Deacon Lance's definition, would not an individual convert from Russian Orthodoxy to the Latin Church be considered a WWMNBW?
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« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2013, 01:01:43 AM »

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Though I must say that the word which must not be written would come in quite handy here.

Not at all.  To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome.  Today's Eastern Catholics have never been Orthodox. 

But their Churches were.

But it's still a stretch to call them by the WWMNBW -- well, unless you're using that word in the sense that the New Catholic Dictionary used it. If that's the case, then you ought to be aware of another term used by that same dictionary.

No, I'm not using their sense (which would, it seems, be identical to "Eastern Catholics").

I'm using it to mean "A Church (not an individual) which was once Orthodox and is now in communion with Rome, or a member of such a Church."

By Fr. Deacon Lance's definition, would not an individual convert from Russian Orthodoxy to the Latin Church be considered a WWMNBW?

Well, he said that "To qualify one would have to be Orthodox and then unite with Rome." I.e. he said that was a necessary condition, not that it was a sufficient condition.

Anyhow, it's getting a bit late here in New England, but I'll probably think more about this tomorrow.
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2013, 12:52:03 PM »

4. Orthodoxy becomes a major force in the West and what's left of the Roman Catholic Church becomes the Episcopal Church--Patriarchate of Italy.

Well, the Episcopal Church together with the Anglican Church of Cananda make up the most liberal 5% of the Anglican Communion, hence they're the farthest from Catholicism. If any Anglicans are at all similar to us it would be the 50% or so of them that are in Africa. (And of course a few small groups like the ACNA.)

I didn't actually mean you'd become part of the Episcopal Church;

Well, yeah. Your post wasn't nearly unclear enough to give that impression.

it was a commentary on what you'd effectively be if you fell that far. So far you haven't, but recall that an earlier premise of this hypothetical was women's ordination and the exodus of conservative Catholics from the Church, so thinking you'd become like the Episcopalians after that is not unreasonable.

Alright I guess that makes sense (assuming its far-fetched premise). Essentially an extension of the idea that the Church of England has been (or is becoming) the Episcopal Church since adopting women's ordination, and likewise the Old Catholics (just a step or two behind the CoE).
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« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2013, 03:19:59 PM »

Getting to the original topic ...

What I find particularly interesting is this comment:

Quote
The mature fruit of this knowledge is the progressive agreement upon particular points, an agreement, which on the tally of disagreements and agreements, will continuously increase the sum of the agreements until all disagreements are eclipsed. On that day, we will all, united in faith and love, jointly glorify our Savior Christ, Who will have led us through fire and water to refreshment.

Some of this is particularly worrying.

I probably won't surprise you that, as a Catholic, I have a slightly different take on it. To me it isn't so much worrying as wearying. I can already anticipate a great many Catholics reading that and getting excited -- it's kind of like having bunch roommates who start jumping up and down every time they see "You may have already won" in the mail.
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« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2013, 07:17:17 PM »

I know a few Orthodox that are feeling likewise. I think there are a number on both sides that don't fully understand the hurdles.

I had an elderly Greek man come up and tell me when I was doing church tours that our hierarchs had everything sorted out and that the only thing they needed to agree on was the date of Easter, then the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would have union.

I wish that's all there was.
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