OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 08:49:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Great and Holy Synod and Rome  (Read 2755 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« on: January 02, 2013, 08:01:29 PM »

Patriarch Bartholomew in a letter to Pope Benedict:

Quote
The current year is passing. With terrifying and negative predictions for the developments of human affairs on a global sphere. In the year of our Lord 2013, currently in view, we will celebrate the 1700th anniversary of the proclamation of the Edict of Milan, by means of which the freedom of the Christian faith, and freedom of religion in general, was proclaimed by the emperor of the Romans, St. Constantine the Great. This freedom, which Christ promised and in which He has set us free (see Galatians 5:1), we ought to preserve and strengthen. And this we, the two Churches, accomplish by words and deeds, in unison. Your Roman Catholic Church has celebrated the 50th anniversary of the convocation of Vatican II. Our Holy Orthodox Church finds itself in the delightful position of announcing that the preparation of its Holy and Great Synod has almost been completed, that it is in its final stages and will be convoked in the near future. It will pronounce upon the issue, among others, of the dialogues of Orthodoxy with the other Churches and it will take the fitting decisions in unity and authenticity so that we may progress toward the “unity of faith” in the communion of the Holy Spirit in the surety that “To lovers of the truth nothing can be put before God and hope in Him” (Basil the Great, To Eustathius the Physician, Letter 151, PG 32.608B; NPNF2-8:604).
From: http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=gr&id=1589&tla=en

What I find particularly interesting is this comment:

Quote
The mature fruit of this knowledge is the progressive agreement upon particular points, an agreement, which on the tally of disagreements and agreements, will continuously increase the sum of the agreements until all disagreements are eclipsed. On that day, we will all, united in faith and love, jointly glorify our Savior Christ, Who will have led us through fire and water to refreshment.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:01:42 PM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 08:22:39 PM »

Some of this is particularly worrying. I try not to be an alarmist, nor an EP-hater, but this is pretty far out there.

I could never venerate or respect the majority of Latin saints of the past centuries. I could never accept the dogmas of the Catholic Church, nor any "half-way" point. The division is too far for there to be any union while preserving Orthodox teaching. There would only be a giant melting pot of heresy. The division is more than just the filioque, more than just the few dogmas quoted here and there, all of which could likely be explained away to the realm of theologoumena, the entire spirituality of the two churches is entirely different. The difference cannot be put on paper. Sure, we can all say "I would accept it if Rome accepted Orthodox dogma", but will Rome, whose followers number over one billion, ever submit to the Holy Orthodox Church and shed her heresy? Will they reject their saints who were fallen to delusion and apparition and who actively sought such sensual experiences? We all know if there is to be union it would be at the expense of dogmatic Orthodoxy.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is a learned man, and he must know Catholicism, having spent a great deal of time at the Vatican. How can he not see this? Does he? Does he think that a Florentine-style union will ever work? That his sheep will meekly follow the abandonment of their faith? If the Church of Constantinople were to submit itself to Rome - that is truly what union would be - I would not and could not follow.
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 08:27:41 PM »

Honestly, I found it hard to tell exactly what sort of union he hopes to come from the dialogues. He wants more dialogues, and he wants us to work together in worldly things to further a sense of brotherhood, but beyond that and regarding the actual concept of union he is rather vague.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 08:49:18 PM »

I think what we're tying to do is more of a cooperation.  Unity won't happen overnight, at this point we can work together with the things common in our faiths, like fighting abortion and other injustices in the world.  Then we can build from there.  For example, if the local RC diocese organizes a pro-life march, can he count on the Orthodox parishes to come and support them?  They should, and we should join in.  There are bigger issues in the world today we need to address and we already agree on those issues, like the evils of consumerism and the continued persecution of Christians in many nations as well as advancing secularism.  We can continue to talk about the Papacy and the Filioque as part of dialogue but we should also start working together on matters that we already agree on.  We don't need to have inter-Communion today, but we can still stand side-by-side on a lot of these issues.
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »

Gratefully in the OCA ... shunned by the EP as a toothless second cousin. Wink
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2013, 09:06:23 PM »

I think what we're tying to do is more of a cooperation.  Unity won't happen overnight, at this point we can work together with the things common in our faiths, like fighting abortion and other injustices in the world.  Then we can build from there.  For example, if the local RC diocese organizes a pro-life march, can he count on the Orthodox parishes to come and support them?  They should, and we should join in.  There are bigger issues in the world today we need to address and we already agree on those issues, like the evils of consumerism and the continued persecution of Christians in many nations as well as advancing secularism.  We can continue to talk about the Papacy and the Filioque as part of dialogue but we should also start working together on matters that we already agree on.  We don't need to have inter-Communion today, but we can still stand side-by-side on a lot of these issues.
I agree completely, and the EP seems to as well:

Quote
During this necessary and historical co-journey, while surely seeking the union between us, we ought to display union first, especially today, in relation to the way we approach the misfortune of our mainly spiritually poor, but also materially poor fellow humans. This is surely much easier and can be immediately accomplished. We the spiritual leaders and clerics are, therefore, called to approach as the Good Samaritan, and indeed not “by chance,” but “while it is yet day” we are called to “bind their wounds,” “pouring on oil and wine” (see Luke 10:31,34).
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 09:38:36 PM »

I actually kind of like that letter, I don't really see anything wrong with it. Besides, if people think the Great and Holy Council will declare some reunion, you're a bit naive. The largest church (Russia) has already said that they won't support any union that compromises doctrine, and they have, by far, the most Bishops and clergy that would attend the synod.

I'm thinking they will discuss what divides us from RCC and OO, and what might be done to rectify things, but there definitely won't be any serious talk of reunion.

Also, I don't think the EP is the great ecumenist and unionist heretic some seem to think he is. At least from my interactions with Old Calendarists in Greece, they'd regard me as an ecumenist heretic just for standing there while my dad says grace at a family meal, or for even attending a Christmas Eve service at my parent's church and singing carols with them.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,541



« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 11:14:46 PM »

Reunion at this point cannot happen unless Rome abandons and repudiates the ecclesiastical principles which led to the rise of the papacy, and the blurring of theology and economy, which leads to some of its erroneous Trinitarian dogmas. Similarly, dogma which have no direct impact upon the economy of salvation must be made into thelogoumena. I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think this is the only way that union can be achieved without sacrificing the Orthodoxy of our faith. On the other hand, this is all I think we ought to demand, nothing more. The current state of affairs as far as the Roman Liturgy is concerned (the only other thing I think most Orthodox Christians might find questionable about Roman Catholicism) ought to solve itself, once decentralization occurs.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 11:21:12 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,480


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2013, 11:18:14 PM »

Reunion at this point cannot happen unless Rome abandons and repudiates the ecclesiastical principles which led to the rise of the papacy, and the blurring of theology and economy, which leads to some of its erroneous Trinitarian dogmas.

This. Not negotiable. Reunion must be on our doctrinal and dogmatic terms, not anyone else's.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 11:20:27 PM »

Reunion at this point cannot happen unless Rome abandons and repudiates the ecclesiastical principles which led to the rise of the papacy, and the blurring of theology and economy, which leads to some of its erroneous Trinitarian dogmas.

This. Not negotiable. Reunion must be on our doctrinal and dogmatic terms, not anyone else's.

I don't think anyone, especially the EP and MP would deny this.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,541



« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 12:04:53 AM »

Reunion at this point cannot happen unless Rome abandons and repudiates the ecclesiastical principles which led to the rise of the papacy, and the blurring of theology and economy, which leads to some of its erroneous Trinitarian dogmas.

This. Not negotiable. Reunion must be on our doctrinal and dogmatic terms, not anyone else's.

I don't think anyone, especially the EP and MP would deny this.

Of course, and I don't think that they would betray the Orthodox faith. Hopefully, the synod will set ground rules for participation in Ecumenism, and not repeat some of the mistakes the Roman Catholics made at VII (to be more specific, I am primarily thinking of the open ended nature of some of the language used at VII, which has led to the current crisis of hermeneutic continuity in the Roman Catholic Church; all it took was some vague language to give theological liberals the impression that they had received a blank check to do whatever, a mistake that we hopefully will not repeat).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 12:14:45 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 12:54:55 AM »

What about original sin; the immaculate conception; the mediatrix of grace; the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, etc. that proclaimed false dogma; the entire "schema" of what it means to be a saint and what one should seek (think Francis of Assisi, where Francis actively sought out visions, or the Catholic "crazy" saints, see here: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html)? And that's just skimming the surface. There is a lot more to it than the few dogmatic points that are quoted in "Comparing Orthodoxy and Catholicism" books.

Why do we feel such a strong need for reunion that will sacrifice and muddy the faith (even if we don't formally give up any Orthodox doctrine), when the Orthodox Church stands waiting for those who truly seek it?
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 01:02:22 AM »

What about original sin; the immaculate conception; the mediatrix of grace; the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, etc. that proclaimed false dogma; the entire "schema" of what it means to be a saint and what one should seek (think Francis of Assisi, where Francis actively sought out visions, or the Catholic "crazy" saints, see here: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html)? And that's just skimming the surface. There is a lot more to it than the few dogmatic points that are quoted in "Comparing Orthodoxy and Catholicism" books.
While I agree with the initial dogmatic/apparition issues you bring up, I can't say I agree with the wholesale denouncing and demonizing of Catholic saints.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 01:33:37 AM »

What about original sin; the immaculate conception; the mediatrix of grace; the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, etc. that proclaimed false dogma; the entire "schema" of what it means to be a saint and what one should seek (think Francis of Assisi, where Francis actively sought out visions, or the Catholic "crazy" saints, see here: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html)? And that's just skimming the surface. There is a lot more to it than the few dogmatic points that are quoted in "Comparing Orthodoxy and Catholicism" books.
While I agree with the initial dogmatic/apparition issues you bring up, I can't say I agree with the wholesale denouncing and demonizing of Catholic saints.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. There were surely many pious Catholic saints, but the theme of a "St. Francis of Assisi" type saint that was outlined in the article I quoted reappeared throughout the history of the Latin Church(but remained absent in places like Ireland for quite a while), and has become a general prototype, or schema, of the majority of modern Catholic saints that have been canonized.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 01:34:20 AM by Antonis » Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 02:28:30 AM »

Sorry if I wasn't clear. There were surely many pious Catholic saints, but the theme of a "St. Francis of Assisi" type saint that was outlined in the article I quoted reappeared throughout the history of the Latin Church(but remained absent in places like Ireland for quite a while), and has become a general prototype, or schema, of the majority of modern Catholic saints that have been canonized.
Honestly, it seems that most, of course not all, such denouncements of "crazy Catholic saints" amount to little more than a tribal defense of Orthodoxy and beating down of others. In other words, "my dad is bigger than your dad!"

To show the reverse of this, I can think of comments I've seen from people on ascetical Orthodox monks, hermits, stylites, fools-for-Christ, and those that experience the Uncreated Light or other apparitions - they thought them to be delirious, crazy, or demon-possessed. After all who practically starves themselves, claims to live only on the euchastic, lives alone for years and then proceeds to tell others about how the Theotokos appeared and talked to them?

While we can say that Catholic saints are not true saints, we should be mindful of how we do it. What Fr. Aidan says in a comment on that article is extremely relevant and mostly describes what I'm trying to say.

That said, I do tend to drift toward the camp that doesn't blanket-reject all piety and sanctity outside of Orthodoxy.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,033


« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 02:40:15 AM »

I respect the EP, but at the same time, speaking as an ex-RC, I would be very cautious to be extremely clear on what you consider to be the aims of any future dialogue with the RCC, as I can tell you from experience that many Catholics (both Latin and Eastern) are under the impression that the dialogues represent things that you probably don't think they represent (e.g., "well if you guys don't agree with us on X, why do you have this agreed statement with us/why do you still meet with us/etc.?" I've talked to many, including those who used to be Orthodox, who seem to think that we really agree with everything we say we disagree with them about, but just don't want to admit it).

I'd as soon avoid anything that isn't at the individual parish level (as other posters have mentioned, things like marching together at events in a city, working together to feed homeless, etc.), but I guess they don't let us recent converts decide these things, with good reason. Wink The trouble with the RCC is that is presuppositions and way of being Christian are so different than those of the Orthodox. I think the EP was really on to something when he said in his famous "Phos Hilarion" speech at Georgetown a few years ago that we have become ontologically different, and that reunion won't come without one common model of existence is sought (or something like that). From conversations with old Catholic acquaintances, it seems that most would be content us to keep all our funny ways (within existing Eastern Catholic Churches...), if we'd just agree to "accept" Rome or proclaim the "validity" of Rome (both according to Rome's ideas of what that involves, of course). That's not going to happen, so I hope for all of our sakes that this fact is delivered loud and clear to all of Rome's faithful, from the Roman Pope on down, lest any talks lead to more confusion and trouble than increased cooperation.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 03:10:18 AM »

...I think the EP was really on to something when he said in his famous "Phos Hilarion" speech at Georgetown a few years ago that we have become ontologically different, and that reunion won't come without one common model of existence is sought (or something like that).

For those who haven't read it...  (Link)
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 03:40:23 AM »

Quote
To show the reverse of this, I can think of comments I've seen from people on ascetical Orthodox monks, hermits, stylites, fools-for-Christ, and those that experience the Uncreated Light or other apparitions - they thought them to be delirious, crazy, or demon-possessed. After all who practically starves themselves, claims to live only on the euchastic, lives alone for years and then proceeds to tell others about how the Theotokos appeared and talked to them?
Key part: they don't. And they pray to be delivered from such delusion, whereas the Catholic saints outlined actively prayed for visions, for sensual experiences, and, in the case of female saints, often described their relationship with Christ in a creepy romantic manner.

One can look at the reverse side of things, but how can one argue the reverse knowing the truth behind Orthodox elders? Their tradition is grounded firmly in pre-schism saints, whereas such Catholic saints depart faaaaar from spiritual elders such as St. John Climacus or St. Anthony the Great, to name but two.

EDIT: Thanks Asteriktos, I'd like to read that. A quick glance makes it look well above my pay-grade, but I'll try to digest it. I'd really like to know His Holiness' actual viewpoint on things, because various things he has said have confused me, probably due to my ignorance.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 03:42:02 AM by Antonis » Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,873


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 06:04:10 AM »

The current state of affairs as far as the Roman Liturgy is concerned (the only other thing I think most Orthodox Christians might find questionable about Roman Catholicism) ought to solve itself, once decentralization occurs.

LOL. Exactly the opposite will happen.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 06:08:27 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,541



« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 06:58:43 AM »

The current state of affairs as far as the Roman Liturgy is concerned (the only other thing I think most Orthodox Christians might find questionable about Roman Catholicism) ought to solve itself, once decentralization occurs.

LOL. Exactly the opposite will happen.

I dunno. I think a highly centralized system abets abuses more than anything, but I suppose it is impossible to know what will work except by experimentation. Whatever the case might be, centralized attempts to stop liturgical abuses don't seem to be working well.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,873


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 07:02:34 AM »

The current state of affairs as far as the Roman Liturgy is concerned (the only other thing I think most Orthodox Christians might find questionable about Roman Catholicism) ought to solve itself, once decentralization occurs.

LOL. Exactly the opposite will happen.

I dunno. I think a highly centralized system abets abuses more than anything, but I suppose it is impossible to know what will work except by experimentation. Whatever the case might be, centralized attempts to stop liturgical abuses don't seem to be working well.

Benedict XVI is doing some good work, it seems to be going in the right direction. Very often, if not always, the Vatican is much more conservative than the local dioceses so it would be a bad idea to let them handle it.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 10:32:50 AM »

Quote
To show the reverse of this, I can think of comments I've seen from people on ascetical Orthodox monks, hermits, stylites, fools-for-Christ, and those that experience the Uncreated Light or other apparitions - they thought them to be delirious, crazy, or demon-possessed. After all who practically starves themselves, claims to live only on the euchastic, lives alone for years and then proceeds to tell others about how the Theotokos appeared and talked to them?
Key part: they don't. And they pray to be delivered from such delusion, whereas the Catholic saints outlined actively prayed for visions, for sensual experiences, and, in the case of female saints, often described their relationship with Christ in a creepy romantic manner.
I don't think the difference is as black-and-white as you make it. Elder Thaddeus, for example, does not seem to take the approach you suggest that all true Orthodox do - and I'm sure he will some day be glorified as a saint.

Quote
One can look at the reverse side of things, but how can one argue the reverse knowing the truth behind Orthodox elders? Their tradition is grounded firmly in pre-schism saints, whereas such Catholic saints depart faaaaar from spiritual elders such as St. John Climacus or St. Anthony the Great, to name but two.
I'm not actually arguing the reverse, but using it as a rhetorical device. The comment by Fr Aidan that I referred to says that similar statements and actions can be found in Orthodox saints, which is my point. We need to reevaluate why we denounce people as not saints, because often these reasons can apply to denouncing our own saints as well.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,297


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 10:44:22 AM »

What will happen at this conference:

Roman position - "You Orthodox must become Roman Catholic again"

Orthodox position - "You Romans must become Orthodox again"

Now, can we save the HUGE amount of money that would have been spent on this silly conference and give it to the poor or something.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 10:50:27 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30234.0.html
Isa you put up links without a synopsis of what they are.  This is why you were put on official warning.  Two weeks post moderation.  Please stop doing this. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Section Moderator.

synopsis of links by isa post edited by username!    The one is on the question of whether the planned Great Council should get around to officially anathematizing the Vatican.  The other thread is for the responses to that idea by the followers of the Vatican.
  
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:42:29 PM by username! » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 11:18:53 AM »


I would've posted the Patriarch's recent epistle in one of those two threads, but I'm not very good at using OCnet's search function to actually find what I'm looking for.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,960



WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 11:25:17 AM »

I hope this to be just a bad use of words:

Quote
The mature fruit of this knowledge is the progressive agreement upon particular points, an agreement, which on the tally of disagreements and agreements, will continuously increase the sum of the agreements until all disagreements are eclipsed. On that day, we will all, united in faith and love, jointly glorify our Savior Christ, Who will have led us through fire and water to refreshment.

Sometimes I have the impression that some hierarchs both in the Church and in Rome honestly believe that the common topics are all that the Church faith is and that the points of divergence are just evil constructions of intolerants and fanatics. Sometimes I have the impression that they count on the general public lack of interest and comprehension of theology to just put aside these differences and that they, so full of "love", will see it pass away by simply not talking about it relativizing it. This, of course, is just childish wishful thinking, and perverse in any adult. If any of them really think that way, if they accomplish a "reunion" based on "reinterpreting" these differences, or by accepting common words that each side can interpret any way they want, all they will have really accomplished is to create the abomination in the altar, the religion of the antichrist, a prophanity organically subservient to global interests. There is much talk about reunion, but none about repenting. The Pope spoke recently about actualizing a union that "already exists" spiritually. It would be a sad thing to see the rise of such a mockery of the Church, a new organization based on generic and meaningless theology. May God allow me to be radically mistaken about it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 11:38:20 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2013, 12:46:45 PM »

Now, can we save the HUGE amount of money that would have been spent on this silly conference and give it to the poor or something.

Bulgarians think so, so they quit from EO-RC dialogue a few years ago.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,873


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2013, 12:51:05 PM »


Sometimes I have the impression that some hierarchs both in the Church and in Rome honestly believe that the common topics are all that the Church faith is and that the points of divergence are just evil constructions of intolerants and fanatics.

"Azymes" ring a bell? Those hierarchs might be partially right.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 02:35:35 PM »

I'm so tired of seeing overreactions to the statements the EP releases.

"OMG the sky is falling! Our Bishops are a bunch of Ecumenists bent on abandoning the Orthodox faith in favor of union with the Papist heretics!"

Chill out, the Great & Holy Synod isn't going to be a reunion council and our Bishops aren't going to abandon Orthodoxy in favor of reunion, and the EP isn't some great ecumenist heretic.

Just a note, I'm not talking to anyone in particular even in this discussion, but I have seen reactions like this far too frequently when the EP releases statements. I bet some out there would think that even writing a letter to a Roman Catholic would constitute an anathema.
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,960



WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 02:43:05 PM »

Azymes is one thing that *has* already been dropped but by groups that have already separated from the Church. It's the big ones that are the problem (supremacy, infallibility, immaculate conception and so on). What is the meaning of "eclipsed" after all if not that a smaller isssue has to be overshadowed by some greater good? What is the greater good in this case? Is it unfair to think that so many of the Ecumenists think that it is "union" and that for them "union" is an end that justifies "flexibility" of doctrine? I have heard from Roman friends who are supportersof eccumenism that "the Orthodox could interpret infallibility and supremacy anyway you want, so long you accept that in dogmatic and moral issues the Pope has the right to put an end to the discussion". That is to "eclipse" things for me and they say it with complete innocence in their eyes, really thinking that this is a "middle-ground" solution.

I *would* like to see Rome back to Orthodoxy and yes, I see a couple of things Orthodoxy would have to change to adapt to that. But I don't see any discussion on the very issues of the division, it's total silence, just politically correct talks about a superficial kind of love, as if institutional unity was what Christ came for in the world.


Sometimes I have the impression that some hierarchs both in the Church and in Rome honestly believe that the common topics are all that the Church faith is and that the points of divergence are just evil constructions of intolerants and fanatics.

"Azymes" ring a bell? Those hierarchs might be partially right.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 02:51:58 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 02:55:30 PM »

Azymes is one thing that *has* already been dropped but by groups that have alreayd separated from the Church. It's the big ones that are the problem (supremacy, infallibility, immaculate conception and so on). What is the meaning of "eclipsed" after all? To just put in the shadow, in second place. Are these issues in second place? I have heard from Roman friends who are into ecumenist movement that "the Orthodox could interpret infallibility and supremacy anyway you want, so long you accept that in dogmatic and moral issues the Pope has the right to put an end to the discussion". That is to "eclipse" things for me.


Sometimes I have the impression that some hierarchs both in the Church and in Rome honestly believe that the common topics are all that the Church faith is and that the points of divergence are just evil constructions of intolerants and fanatics.

"Azymes" ring a bell? Those hierarchs might be partially right.

Infallibility is probably the single biggest problem, once that is solved, the rest can fall like dominoes. The Pope has primacy but not supremacy, the Bishops of the East really didn't care how much power he gained within his own jurisdiction as long as he didn't extend that to them as well, so I could see a situation where the Pope has "Supremacy" amongst his lower cardinals and bishops, but primacy amongst the other churches. The immaculate conception can be held as a private theological opinion, but not as doctrine/dogma. I would also think the filioque would be somewhat easy to solve since most Catholics i've seen don't care too much about it and it really only comes down to an issue of the Pope's authority, and if that is solved, the filioque would be much more easily resolved.
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,960



WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 03:07:24 PM »

Actually, I think that Filioque is the one that is closest to be solved and the only one of the biggies that was actually discussed. There is a common understanding that what Romans mean by it is the sending of the of the Holy Spirit to the world. It can still be rightly said that, although they intend it to mean so, in the context of the Creed it wouldn't have this meaning, because it is put in a sentence that is meant to be in parallelism with particularities of the other Persons of the Trinity.

Now, why there is no agreement in rewording the Creed? I believe that it is again supremacy and infallibility. The real point of the Romans in keeping the filioque, today, is that since the Pope approved it it *has* to be there and it *has* to be accepted in that form. You may keep the "oriental form" but only with the "permission" of the Pope. In the end, what matters is not what you do, as long as you do it under submission to the Pope.

Azymes is one thing that *has* already been dropped but by groups that have alreayd separated from the Church. It's the big ones that are the problem (supremacy, infallibility, immaculate conception and so on). What is the meaning of "eclipsed" after all? To just put in the shadow, in second place. Are these issues in second place? I have heard from Roman friends who are into ecumenist movement that "the Orthodox could interpret infallibility and supremacy anyway you want, so long you accept that in dogmatic and moral issues the Pope has the right to put an end to the discussion". That is to "eclipse" things for me.


Sometimes I have the impression that some hierarchs both in the Church and in Rome honestly believe that the common topics are all that the Church faith is and that the points of divergence are just evil constructions of intolerants and fanatics.

"Azymes" ring a bell? Those hierarchs might be partially right.

Infallibility is probably the single biggest problem, once that is solved, the rest can fall like dominoes. The Pope has primacy but not supremacy, the Bishops of the East really didn't care how much power he gained within his own jurisdiction as long as he didn't extend that to them as well, so I could see a situation where the Pope has "Supremacy" amongst his lower cardinals and bishops, but primacy amongst the other churches. The immaculate conception can be held as a private theological opinion, but not as doctrine/dogma. I would also think the filioque would be somewhat easy to solve since most Catholics i've seen don't care too much about it and it really only comes down to an issue of the Pope's authority, and if that is solved, the filioque would be much more easily resolved.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 03:14:30 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 04:11:44 PM »

Quote
I don't think the difference is as black-and-white as you make it. Elder Thaddeus, for example, does not seem to take the approach you suggest that all true Orthodox do - and I'm sure he will some day be glorified as a saint.
Really? I've read Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives and I don't quite get your reference. I don't mean to be stand-offish, I really want to understand.  Cheesy Where are you getting this?

Quote
I'm not actually arguing the reverse, but using it as a rhetorical device. The comment by Fr Aidan that I referred to says that similar statements and actions can be found in Orthodox saints, which is my point. We need to reevaluate why we denounce people as not saints, because often these reasons can apply to denouncing our own saints as well.
I think Sanidopoulos' response is a fitting elaboration on what was conveyed in the article that dismisses Fr. Aidan's concerns of us inadvertently judging our own saints by judging Catholic ones.

Quote
Bulgarians think so, so they quit from EO-RC dialogue a few years ago.
I think the Georgians have too, right?

Quote
Infallibility is probably the single biggest problem, once that is solved, the rest can fall like dominoes. The Pope has primacy but not supremacy, the Bishops of the East really didn't care how much power he gained within his own jurisdiction as long as he didn't extend that to them as well, so I could see a situation where the Pope has "Supremacy" amongst his lower cardinals and bishops, but primacy amongst the other churches. The immaculate conception can be held as a private theological opinion, but not as doctrine/dogma. I would also think the filioque would be somewhat easy to solve since most Catholics i've seen don't care too much about it and it really only comes down to an issue of the Pope's authority, and if that is solved, the filioque would be much more easily resolved.
*stuffs cotton in hears* Lalalalalalalalalala...

This makes me sad.  Undecided Why do we need union so badly that we seek these compromises? What is the point? The Church has been here for two thousand years for those that seek it. What is the point?

I honestly believe if anything as described above ever happened, the Church would face a lot bigger schism than the Calendarist one. And I honestly can't see the Churches of Russia, Bulgaria, etc. going along with it. I wouldn't either.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 04:15:03 PM by Antonis » Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 04:23:03 PM »

Really? I've read Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives and I don't quite get your reference. I don't mean to be stand-offish, I really want to understand.  Cheesy Where are you getting this?
Elder Thaddeus received a vision of the Theotokos, as elaborated on page 39 of OTDOL. It is a dream vision, but considered a miraculous apparition nonetheless. He approaches her, asks her forgiveness for his sins, and she responds to him saying "It is nothing. [...] Your nerves are very worn out."

It continues on the same page to mention an "angelic visitation" he received in the Petrovac prison, "There are many in the world whom you must comfort and encourage!" This angel's apparition is detailed on pages 34-35. He does not describe it as a delusion, nor did he react against it - on the contrary, he said it was a "heavenly vision which God had made [him] worth of seeing in order to comfort [him] and make known to [him] His will regarding [his] life in this world." He continues to say that it was his only waking apparition, and that the rest of his revelations would occur in dreams.

This does not fit your description of the Orthodox response of "Key part: they don't. And they pray to be delivered from such delusion,"
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 04:32:50 PM »

I don't quite see how it contradicts what I said. I didn't say that they don't receive visions, certainly they do! But if you read the desert fathers, Athonite fathers, and other righteous monastics, they would cross themselves and often pray that they were not being deluded by demonic apparition.

What I disagreed with was "proceeds to tell others about how the Theotokos appeared and talked to them?" They never publicize these things. And when they do, as is the case with the Elder Thaddeus and saints like St. Juliana of Lazarevo, they ask that they only be revealed after their death, as they are of the utmost humility. The cases of the Catholic saints outlined above are nothing like this, and they actively pray for vision and sensual experience.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 04:33:37 PM by Antonis » Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,199



« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 04:40:40 PM »

I don't quite see how it contradicts what I said. I didn't say that they don't receive visions, certainly they do! But if you read the desert fathers, Athonite fathers, and other righteous monastics, they would cross themselves and often pray that they were not being deluded by demonic apparition.

What I disagreed with was "proceeds to tell others about how the Theotokos appeared and talked to them?" They never publicize these things. And when they do, as is the case with the Elder Thaddeus and saints like St. Juliana of Lazarevo, they ask that they only be revealed after their death, as they are of the utmost humility. The cases of the Catholic saints outlined above are nothing like this, and they actively pray for vision and sensual experience.
It contradicts in two ways.

1) These apparitions are accounted in talks, sermons, and conversations given by Elder Thaddeus to others. Elder Thaddeus also blessed the creation of OTDOL and its original (Serbian) works - posthumously or not, it is publicizing. Thus, he told people both during his life in talks, sermons, and conversations, as well as post-humously through the publishing of the aforementioned.

2) You said that they "pray to be delivered from such delusion" proceeding an apparition, however Elder Thaddeus gives no hint that he approaches the apparitions in such a way. In fact, his response during recollection is quite the opposite in emphasizing the wonder, comfort, and direction of the experiences.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 04:57:42 PM »

Quote
1) These apparitions are accounted in talks, sermons, and conversations given by Elder Thaddeus to others. Elder Thaddeus also blessed the creation of OTDOL and its original (Serbian) works - posthumously or not, it is publicizing. Thus, he told people both during his life in talks, sermons, and conversations, as well as post-humously through the publishing of the aforementioned.
Yes, and that can be edifying, but he didn't go and shout it from the rooftops. St. Francis of Assisi had one of his companions drag him through the streets to show everyone how humble he was. That is not piety.

Giving the blessing of posthumous retelling of a story is nothing like spreading it while alive. In fact, the Elder refused for it be published during his lifetime. That is humility. After his death such events serve as edification for others while still maintaining his personal humility and not seeking attention. Furthermore, throughout the book, he admits that he actively resisted at times people coming to see him, but
Providence "pushed" him back into it.

Quote
2) You said that they "pray to be delivered from such delusion" proceeding an apparition, however Elder Thaddeus gives no hint that he approaches the apparitions in such a way. In fact, his response during recollection is quite the opposite in emphasizing the wonder, comfort, and direction of the experiences.
How do we know? His words and actions throughout the book advocate caution of demonic(whether he calls it such by name or not) temptation. That clearly shows his mindset of how he would approach such situations. Likewise, he was a monk, and as a monk he would have been thoroughly educated in the Orthodox approach to such things. It would have been the automatic response.

I feel like we're digressing quite a bit. Forgive me if I have misunderstood your points, it might be best wrap up this conversation as it is but one point dealing with the much grander issue of possible union between the Orthodox and Latin Churches.  Lips Sealed
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 05:38:38 PM »

Quote
1) These apparitions are accounted in talks, sermons, and conversations given by Elder Thaddeus to others. Elder Thaddeus also blessed the creation of OTDOL and its original (Serbian) works - posthumously or not, it is publicizing. Thus, he told people both during his life in talks, sermons, and conversations, as well as post-humously through the publishing of the aforementioned.

 St. Francis of Assisi had one of his companions drag him through the streets to show everyone how humble he was. That is not piety.



Where and when did this happen?  Do you have a reliable source to cite?  (I say "reliable" because there is a certain degree of  myth and legend surrounding St. Francis and sometimes it can be difficult to separate that from what actually did or did not happen.)
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 05:54:35 PM »

Quote
1) These apparitions are accounted in talks, sermons, and conversations given by Elder Thaddeus to others. Elder Thaddeus also blessed the creation of OTDOL and its original (Serbian) works - posthumously or not, it is publicizing. Thus, he told people both during his life in talks, sermons, and conversations, as well as post-humously through the publishing of the aforementioned.

 St. Francis of Assisi had one of his companions drag him through the streets to show everyone how humble he was. That is not piety.



Where and when did this happen?  Do you have a reliable source to cite?  (I say "reliable" because there is a certain degree of  myth and legend surrounding St. Francis and sometimes it can be difficult to separate that from what actually did or did not happen.)
It seems I do not! I am sorry, I was working off of memory. It is likely just a myth, as you said, as I can't find it anywhere.
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 05:56:28 PM »

Quote
1) These apparitions are accounted in talks, sermons, and conversations given by Elder Thaddeus to others. Elder Thaddeus also blessed the creation of OTDOL and its original (Serbian) works - posthumously or not, it is publicizing. Thus, he told people both during his life in talks, sermons, and conversations, as well as post-humously through the publishing of the aforementioned.

 St. Francis of Assisi had one of his companions drag him through the streets to show everyone how humble he was. That is not piety.



Where and when did this happen?  Do you have a reliable source to cite?  (I say "reliable" because there is a certain degree of  myth and legend surrounding St. Francis and sometimes it can be difficult to separate that from what actually did or did not happen.)
It seems I do not! I am sorry, I was working off of memory. It is likely just a myth, as you said, as I can't find it anywhere.

Then perhaps we should not pay it much heed, right?  And, just perhaps, he was a little more humble and pious than that assertion could erroneously lead us to believe.  Wink
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 06:06:27 PM »

Hold up; that's just one episode, it still doesn't redeem him in my mind! laugh
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 06:23:09 PM »

I know it's routine for threads to go off topic, but this one was just strange  police
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 06:39:53 PM »

I know it's routine for threads to go off topic, but this one was just strange  police
Sorry!  Lips Sealed
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 12,940


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 06:44:56 PM »

Hold up; that's just one episode, it still doesn't redeem him in my mind! laugh

Yeah, keep saying bad things about someone when you're not really sure.  Tongue

He's not even in your church. You shouldn't care.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,406


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 06:54:59 PM »

Hold up; that's just one episode, it still doesn't redeem him in my mind! laugh

Yeah, keep saying bad things about someone when you're not really sure.  Tongue

He's not even in your church. You shouldn't care.
The "bad things" aren't being said for the sake of bashing with no reason. If you read the conversation (I assume you did), there was a purpose to comparing the Orthodox "schema" of sanctity and a common Catholic "schema" of sanctity. I care because it is a major issue in union, which is the topic of this thread. I didn't mean to come off as "my dad is bigger than your dad." My apologies.
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 73 queries.