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Author Topic: Short video comparing Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic liturgy  (Read 6014 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2013, 05:12:44 PM »



Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.

I'd pretty much agree with what you say above, Peter.  In my experience, Orthodox and Eastern Catholic parishes are so much smaller than the RC parishes I've seen or been to that the priest will have much more personal knowledge of the people communing and whether they are "worthy" to receive (not that any of us really ever are!) or not, and can question those people he's not familiar with.  Otherwise, in RC parishes, especially the larger ones, I think we put our trust in non-Catholics to know (or find out about) and respect the requirements for receiving Holy Communion.
 
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« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2013, 05:10:28 PM »

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Orthodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendance fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Let me be so bold as to say that I find it hard to believe that you have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.

Let me be so bold as to say you should be less bold.

I understand the Roman church uses a sort of honour system (as do most Protestant churches) regarding whether one is prepared to approach the chalice. My worry, based on a significant sample size, is that it leads to people partaking who have not confessed recently. This is an abuse of Roman teaching that doesn't show up on these videos but is much more worrying in my opinion.

The RC abuse problem cannot be blamed on large Roman parishes either. At the Orthodox Cathedral of the Holy Virgin in San Francisco, for example, they warn visitors that they must confess with a parish priest before partaking:
Quote
All Orthodox Christians are welcome to have Communion at the Cathedral provided they have Confession the night before receiving Communion. Confession can be heard by the Cathedral clergy or with your own parish priest/spiritual father. It is not acceptable to ask the Cathedral clergy for Confession during the Liturgy unless you are extremely frail, ill or disabled. It is tradition in the Russian Orthodox Church to have Confession prior to Communion and we ask all our Orthodox guests to honor this practice. "Prior to" Communion doesn't mean 6 or 12 months ago or even two weeks ago. Also, insisting at the Holy Chalice that you have a blessing from your spiritual father to have Communion without the necessary preparation is unacceptable.

I have never seen anything similar in an RC church, let alone RC cathedral.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:12:21 PM by Clemente » Logged
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« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2013, 06:42:47 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue

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« Reply #138 on: January 08, 2013, 06:49:21 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

Mine certainly doesn't insist on this.
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« Reply #139 on: January 08, 2013, 07:05:17 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

Mine certainly doesn't insist on this.
Nor does mine and it is also Russian Orthodox.

Yet both the Orthodox Church and the RC church insist on frequent confession. My point is that this teaching is often abused in the RC church, at least based on my significant RC experience in Spain (which at one time was a devout RC country so should be a relevant data point). The RC "honour system" regarding approaching the chalice leads to such abuse, I would posit.



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« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2013, 07:10:06 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue
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« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2013, 08:33:28 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...
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« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:36 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.
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« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2013, 06:35:39 AM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 06:57:07 AM by Clemente » Logged
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« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2013, 08:54:35 AM »

Well, I agree with you that it's essentially an "honor system". However, it seems to me (and perhaps biro feels this way too) that you're just harping on the subject repetitively.
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« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.



So, having attended roughly 260 Masses (out of how many that are celebrated in Spain every day?) you've observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RC's (also your friends?) commune about 50 times?  If they were your friends why did you or your wife not gently inquire of them why they were doing this and inform them of Church policy?  I have done so with friends of mine who aren't Catholic and were about to approach for Communion.  If they were not your friends, how do you know that they were not in a state to approach for Communion?  Of all the Catholics in Spain or elsewhere that are not your friends or acquaintances, how can you possibly know how often the go to the Sacrament of Confession?

While Spain is certainly considered a Catholic country, your "sample" may actually be smaller than you think:
Quote
Today, there are 90% of Spaniards are baptized as Roman Catholics, but fewer than 3/4ths of the population identify themselves as Roman Catholic. Of those who regard themselves as Catholic, 50% are non-practicing.
http://blogs.longwood.edu/spain2011/2011/06/02/the-not-so-catholic-spain/
Sad, isn't it?

Btw, Spain has a population of about 47 million, making the non-practicing number of Catholics, according to the above figures, roughly 16 million, out of a total world population of Catholics of about 1 billion (and yes, I do realize that that number probably includes people who are non-practicing).  How many people attended the approx. 260 Masses you happened to attend?  See what I'm getting at?

Are there people who approach the chalice in Catholic churches who shouldn't?  Yes.  Does anyone know how many do so and how often?  I seriously doubt it.  Does it happen more in some countries (like Spain) than others?  Quite likely.  Is it to be taken lightly?  Definitely not!  Is there a practical solution that can be implemented universally and with relative ease?  I don't know.  Does can anyone know how often any given population of Catholics goes to confession?  I seriously doubt that, too. 

So, yes, there's a problem.  The extent of it actually is, I would contend, almost impossible to know.
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« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2013, 05:35:24 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic. He said non-Catholics could instead come up for a blessing, but nobody did and there were only a handful of Catholics present.
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« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2013, 07:36:05 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.



So, having attended roughly 260 Masses (out of how many that are celebrated in Spain every day?) you've observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RC's (also your friends?) commune about 50 times?  If they were your friends why did you or your wife not gently inquire of them why they were doing this and inform them of Church policy?  I have done so with friends of mine who aren't Catholic and were about to approach for Communion.  If they were not your friends, how do you know that they were not in a state to approach for Communion?  Of all the Catholics in Spain or elsewhere that are not your friends or acquaintances, how can you possibly know how often the go to the Sacrament of Confession?

While Spain is certainly considered a Catholic country, your "sample" may actually be smaller than you think:
Quote
Today, there are 90% of Spaniards are baptized as Roman Catholics, but fewer than 3/4ths of the population identify themselves as Roman Catholic. Of those who regard themselves as Catholic, 50% are non-practicing.
http://blogs.longwood.edu/spain2011/2011/06/02/the-not-so-catholic-spain/
Sad, isn't it?

Btw, Spain has a population of about 47 million, making the non-practicing number of Catholics, according to the above figures, roughly 16 million, out of a total world population of Catholics of about 1 billion (and yes, I do realize that that number probably includes people who are non-practicing).  How many people attended the approx. 260 Masses you happened to attend?  See what I'm getting at?

Are there people who approach the chalice in Catholic churches who shouldn't?  Yes.  Does anyone know how many do so and how often?  I seriously doubt it.  Does it happen more in some countries (like Spain) than others?  Quite likely.  Is it to be taken lightly?  Definitely not!  Is there a practical solution that can be implemented universally and with relative ease?  I don't know.  Does can anyone know how often any given population of Catholics goes to confession?  I seriously doubt that, too. 

So, yes, there's a problem.  The extent of it actually is, I would contend, almost impossible to know.

Good post. Lots to think about. Thanks.
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« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2013, 05:48:58 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic.

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
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« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2013, 08:14:48 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic.

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).

I hypothesize that the combination of the written statement with the Mass being offered ad orientem (and partially in Latin) was enough to tip off those who might usually present for Communion unknowingly - Protestants who don't know there is a closed Communion, for example. Just a hypothesis.
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« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2013, 09:16:42 PM »

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
I don't honestly see how it's so offensive, but others do I guess. I remember my mother telling me about being offended that a Lutheran church wanted to baptize her before they would commune her. She never did.
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« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2013, 09:18:21 PM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.
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« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2013, 09:23:10 PM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.

As far as mainstream Latin Catholic Churches go, it would be considered conservative. It is definitely the exception amongst every other Catholic Church I've ever been to (except SSPX, ICRSS, and FSSP).
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« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2013, 11:08:35 AM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.

As far as mainstream Latin Catholic Churches go, it would be considered conservative. It is definitely the exception amongst every other Catholic Church I've ever been to (except SSPX, ICRSS, and FSSP).

I certainly wouldn't consider the parish I go to (Latin Catholic, run by Marianists) particularly "conservative".  There are plenty of things that drive me nuts, but they don't descend to the level of liturgical abuse.  The pastor recently gave very clear, very specific instructions, both in the bulletin and at every Mass over a couple of weeks about who may approach for Communion and how it is to be received and consumed.  I applaud him for that!  (Hopefully he'll repeat that in a few weeks or months to "refresh" peoples' memories  Wink.)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:09:27 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2013, 12:01:32 PM »

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
I don't honestly see how it's so offensive, but others do I guess.

Oddly enough, I can't recall any time when a priest said in a such a way that would (IMO) make anyone uncomfortable. (I wonder if I could find one on youtube?)

As long as we're on the subject ...

This could just be an odd trait that only I have, but for me the discomfort goes in exactly the opposite way. That is, if I'm at a Catholic mass, I actually feel a little uncomfortable at communion time if I'm not receiving communion. I feel like people are saying to themselves "Huh? Why isn't he receiving communion?"
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« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2013, 01:12:41 PM »

Is there an online text that has a Latin-English version of the Tridentine mass?
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« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »

Is there an online text that has a Latin-English version of the Tridentine mass?

http://missale.heliohost.org/order.html
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