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Author Topic: Short video comparing Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic liturgy  (Read 5587 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2013, 02:51:07 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.



And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.



It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.
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« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2013, 02:59:32 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.



And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.



It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.


Now I want to move to New York!  (Or at least much, much closer to a ByzCath parish than we are.)  Sheesh, what you describe makes the N.O. mass celebrated (actually quite reverently) at the RC church we attend look like some kind of Quaker meeting.  May God bestow abundant blessings upon Fr. Rutler and his congregation!!!
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« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2013, 03:06:13 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?
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« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2013, 03:24:28 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em
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« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2013, 03:42:34 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.
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« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2013, 05:18:53 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

 Smiley Yay!
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« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing Cheesy

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What other reason is there for using Latin and not at the very least, repeating the reading in the vernacular tongue?
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« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2013, 06:58:27 PM »

Ok, I am Russian Orthodox and would like to know what exactly is wrong with the RC mass in the video? I do not mean that there is nothing wrong, but I suspect that there are different opinions about what is wrong.

The dancing deacon should stop, yes. But what else?

Is contemporary music wrong?  I rather like Metr. Hilarion's contemporary Christmas Oratorio and would be delighted to hear part of that at church. Russian chant is not part of the Apostolic Deposit of the Faith. Is Russian chant OK but gospel wrong?

I actually found the apparent joy at the RC service rather attractive. Oh we Orthodox have a lot of joy--our Russian DL is sublime, yet also joyful. But I have found most RC services that I attend (my wife is RC) to be rather dry and uninspiring. I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.
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« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2013, 07:03:05 PM »

I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

That's the main problem for me - you can never be sure what liturgical abuses there will be at any given Mass, so it's kind of hard to let yourself relax and feel uplifted.

If you're able to turn a blind eye to the abuses and benefit spiritually, then more power to you.  Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2013, 07:39:43 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.
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« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2013, 07:52:55 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
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« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.
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« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2013, 07:55:46 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.
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« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2013, 07:58:40 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  Grin
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« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2013, 09:38:51 PM »

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.
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« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2013, 09:44:27 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.
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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2013, 09:48:07 PM »

Are there any videos?

Good question -- not only in the way that you mean it, but also regarding
One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!).
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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2013, 09:59:31 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  Grin

No, you're not wrong. The requirement was loosened up in a misguided effort to get rid of "legalism". As usual, this relaxation was accompanied by exortations to continue the traditional practice (sigh). Of course serious Catholics know to do more than the "bare minimum required".
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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2013, 10:03:10 PM »

"OrthodoxEngland" is one truly disturbed and disturbing website. On a number of levels. If you dig a bit you'd probably find the Protocols there too. I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.
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« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2013, 10:32:15 AM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!
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« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 12:50:11 PM »

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...

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« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 01:04:37 PM »

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites.

It could be interpreted as a missionary strategy. If you want converts, you must give them reasons to convert. And such a video speaks volumes (of otherwise arid Orthodox apologetics, about palamism vs. thomism, sobornost vs. papacy, etc). Liturgical aesthetics have always been the most successful missionary (and political) strategy of Byzantium - remember the story of prince Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople?  Τέτοια πράγματα θαμπώνουν τοὺς βαρβάρους as Kavafis put it...
   
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« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 01:11:25 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 01:12:22 PM »

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...



I didn't watch the video--can't on this computer--, but that's an interesting thought.  Reminds me of this:
Quote
Ps.149
[1] Praise the LORD!
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the faithful!
[2] Let Israel be glad in his Maker,
let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King!
[3] Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with timbrel and lyre!
[4] For the LORD takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with victory
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=2154323
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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central.

(...)

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.

See, Catholics are catching up and finally reacting to Orthodox/traditionalist missionary strategies. Just emulating or letting oneself be inspired by Byzantine iconography won't do anymore - a Chinese faithful reproduction is needed!

The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.     
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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 02:13:24 PM »

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.

I personally think that Latinization is not a bad thing, but should be done in the right context.  What is absorbed must be in harmony with the Eastern traditions and must be done from within, not from external pressure.  What is bad with Latinizations so far is that it is either externally influenced, or people pick up Latin traditions for the sake of it without regard for Eastern tradition and belief.
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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 02:15:51 PM »

Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It takes a disenchanted, post-lapsarian, post-Christian view of the world to accede to that awful 'truth'. Now that's neither remarkable, nor rarely achieved these days.

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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 02:19:30 PM »

Quote
I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It's a backhanded acknowledgement the two churches are so similar. Catholicism's the West's No. 1 church so they're afraid of it. They're probably much less defensive on Orthodoxy's turf: Greece, Russia etc.

Right, a one-hour fast before receiving Communion; water's allowed. A rule the Catholic Church can and does change.

In Catholicism, if you think you've committed what is objectively a mortal sin, you have to go to confession and be absolved before receiving Communion. No mortal sin, no confession unless you want to.

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

Quote
The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.

No.

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. Some say Irish piety is cyclical; one generation's lapsed, the next pious. It's on the downswing now. Anyway, the Irish at first pretty much went along with the king's breaking with Rome mostly because the conservative clergy did a good job of hiding it so religion in the parishes was pretty much the same. The first people in Ireland to rebel against the king's break with Rome were the ethnic English living around Dublin. So arguably you can credit them for the identity 'Irish Catholic'. (So much for Irish Catholics hating the English, which isn't universally true.) The then-state church didn't really become noticeably Protestant until later in the 1500s, when the Irish caught on that it wasn't Catholic anymore and said no. The ethnic English upper class there remained Catholic for a few generations. But eventually the Anglican Church there because the church of the English rulers, definitely Protestant, not Anglo-Catholic. Just like in England it kept all the medieval cathedrals and parish churches but again the religion was Protestant.

Anglo-Catholicism began in England in the 1800s, ironically as partly a reaction to Britain giving Catholics the vote so the government sensibly decided to shut down four Irish Anglican dioceses since the Irish didn't go to those churches; the Anglican churchmen who started Anglo-Catholicism protested that their church has divine authority so the state can't do that. Their movement never took in Ireland; neither the Anglicans there nor the Irish Catholics wanted it. And anyway, the later Anglo-Catholics, in historical irony, ended up imitating the Catholic Church and weren't interested in trying to convert Irish Catholics to their church. So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Rite controls what you do in church, for good order. Devotion is freestyle. Latinizations are fine as long as they're old, don't take over from the native rite, and aren't imposed on people when the native rite has perfectly good practices.
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« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 02:44:06 PM »

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interested in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?
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« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 02:49:51 PM »

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interest in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?

Some well-meaning Western artists use the style of iconography without learning its rules. I like what Fr Rutler had done.

There are one or two semi-Anglo-Catholic parish churches (now liberal like the Episcopalians) the ethnic English built for themselves in big cities such as Belfast and Dublin.
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« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2013, 02:58:46 PM »

Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It takes a disenchanted, post-lapsarian, post-Christian view of the world to accede to that awful 'truth'. Now that's neither remarkable, nor rarely achieved these days.

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also...  
People in general pretty much intuit it and plan accordingly: like, being late, taking a break for a cigarette and a chat in the courtyard, hanging out in the courtyard etc. I mean nothing disparaging when I say boring. Things are as they ought.
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« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2013, 03:03:06 PM »

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites.

It could be interpreted as a missionary strategy. If you want converts, you must give them reasons to convert. And such a video speaks volumes (of otherwise arid Orthodox apologetics, about palamism vs. thomism, sobornost vs. papacy, etc). Liturgical aesthetics have always been the most successful missionary (and political) strategy of Byzantium - remember the story of prince Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople?  Τέτοια πράγματα θαμπώνουν τοὺς βαρβάρους as Kavafis put it...
   
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« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

Quote
People in general pretty much intuit it and plan accordingly: like, being late, taking a break for a cigarette and a chat in the courtyard, hanging out in the courtyard etc.

Normal life in traditional Catholic and Orthodox countries?
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« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2013, 03:22:23 PM »

There are one or two semi-Anglo-Catholic parish churches (now liberal like the Episcopalians) the ethnic English built for themselves in big cities such as Belfast and Dublin.

Sorry, you are right - I had seen a BBC documentary by Samuel Jenkins about English churches. He was actually speaking about St. Augustine's in Kilburn, London: "They (the rich parishioners in London's West End) wanted what amounted to a mission to convert the Irish immigrants of Kilburn. They wanted to meet the challenge of Roman Catholicism on the front line."

In another episode there was talk of rival (Catholic and Anglican) cathedrals in Northern Ireland, which were dedicated to the same patron Saint. It all became mixed up in my head... I stand corrected. 
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« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2013, 03:25:00 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  

Not to get off topic, but you're selling yourself short. You said that he has "no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics" so that shows that you know something pretty significant about him.

What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.

I think we all know those 4 things about Clemente, excepting the fact that he cannot "know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith" since that's open to interpretation.

Edited because I posted too quickly.
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« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2013, 03:40:01 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all. 

Not to get off topic, but you're selling yourself short. You said that he has "no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics" so that shows that you know something pretty significant about him.

What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.

I think we all know those 4 things about Clemente.

Then each of us probably knows him as well as the other.  Unless someone knows him better. Wink
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« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2013, 03:40:33 PM »

I mean nothing disparaging when I say boring. Things are as they ought.

This may mean either that 1) things ought to be boring, or 2) despite things (the services) being as they ought (properly and reverently conducted), people are nevertheless bored.

What I was trying to say is that the cause for boredom lies in the heart of the attendant and not necessarily in the service. A godly Christian (the ultimate bore, to some) can put up with many imperfections in a church service (even liturgical abuses), and still not feel the need to go out for a cigarette break in the churchyard.  
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« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2013, 03:41:27 PM »

I kind of find it funny. Although can it be said of an orthodox church, that sort of worship seen in the video by the roman catholics is done by the orthodox?
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« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2013, 04:09:25 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
i

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.
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« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2013, 04:13:06 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

Use logical fallacies much?

If knowing a billion Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for being able to make observations about Roman Catholic praxis, than no one here may discuss Roman Catholic praxis, including you.

Since I never said "all" Roman Catholics, I certainly am not bound by your ridiculous standard.
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« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2013, 04:16:57 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
i

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teacing is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

I would say that there are those who do fast from midnight.  I used to do that as a Roman Catholic, but only when I am going to Mass in the morning.  So I don't eat anything at all until after Mass.  I know some people who do the same thing.  Wake up just in time to shower, get dressed and go to Mass.  But given that Mass does occur throughout the day on Sundays, those who attend later Masses do eat at some point in the day before going to Mass.
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« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2013, 04:20:28 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!

I am 100% sure you need to brush up on your basic logic.



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« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

Use logical fallacies much?

If knowing a billion Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for being able to make observations about Roman Catholic praxis, than no one here may discuss Roman Catholic praxis, including you.

Since I never said "all" Roman Catholics, I certainly am not bound by your ridiculous standard.

Then don't use a broad, over-generalized phrase like "Roman Catholics do or don't.....", implying that you know the habits and praxis of more than just the few you may be personally acquainted with or otherwise have some personal knowledge of.  In other words, be specific and talk about what you know rather than what you might quite mistakenly surmise about others or infer about them from the behavior of a few.

The "standard" was purposely ridiculous to draw attention to the fact that you appear to generalize from a few to the many, which of course, in the context of what you wrote, is...ridiculous and inaccurate.

Re-read the very first sentence of my original reply to you.
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« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2013, 04:31:40 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!

I am 100% sure you need to brush up on your basic logic.


Well, that might be true.  But is there an inaccuracy in what I wrote above?
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« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2013, 04:51:01 PM »

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Let me be so bold as to say that I find it hard to believe that you have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Good question. My impression is that there isn't.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.
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