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Author Topic: Short video comparing Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic liturgy  (Read 5012 times) Average Rating: 0
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Clare G.
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« on: January 01, 2013, 01:06:47 AM »

I think this probably belongs here rather than in the Liturgy discussion, but Mods will doubtless feel free to move it if necessary.

Warning: it is rather slanted, and compares Patriarchal/Pontifical services rather than less elevated occasions.

http://www.events.orthodoxengland.org.uk/catholic-and-orthodox-liturgy-compared/
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 01:16:43 AM »

I was hoping it wasn't that video. Slanted is an understatement.
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Clare G.
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 01:30:14 AM »

Yes, it's outrageously unfair. Perhaps I should remove it? Maybe it's not as recent as I had thought if you already know it.
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 01:41:52 AM »

Looks like every Catholic church service I've been to, not sure how it is slanted? It seems like very few Catholics do things with majesty any more. The only rite that comes close is the Ambrosian rite.
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 02:18:47 AM »

Looks like every Catholic church service I've been to, not sure how it is slanted? It seems like very few Catholics do things with majesty any more. The only rite that comes close is the Ambrosian rite.

To compare the low of RCC with the height of EOC is slanted and unfair. It's like comparing the education of a poor child living in Brazilian slums with a wealthy European aristocrat.

And the services I've been to certainly weren't like in the video.
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 02:23:25 AM »

Yes, it's outrageously unfair. Perhaps I should remove it? Maybe it's not as recent as I had thought if you already know it.

It's fine. I only just saw it in the past couple of months.
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 02:27:01 AM »

Looks like every Catholic church service I've been to, not sure how it is slanted? It seems like very few Catholics do things with majesty any more. The only rite that comes close is the Ambrosian rite.

To compare the low of RCC with the height of EOC is slanted and unfair. It's like comparing the education of a poor child living in Brazilian slums with a wealthy European aristocrat.

And the services I've been to certainly weren't like in the video.

Well, even the "high" stuff in the Vatican I've seen on tv doesn't look much different. There's a little less play by play announcements and funky dancing but overall, same feel/look. Its like there's one global church catalogue where everyone gets plain jedi looking vestments and plain church accoutrements.
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 03:12:15 AM »

It might be more fair to have compared it to a Mass at the Vatican (which would truly be a Pontifical liturgy!   Grin ). Or perhaps even to an Eastern Catholic one.

But it's sadly true that too many Masses on the local level have been offered like this one. I've been to waaayyy worse.  Angry
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 03:17:15 AM »

plain jedi looking vestments
According to Fr. Hopko, every priest should use the white robe as a base vestment during liturgy, upon which the others are layered.
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 03:47:18 AM »

Definitely not a fair comparison, they should at least compare the Tridentine Mass with the Divine Liturgy, as mentioned, the comparison there just isn't right.

Also it calls the Novus Ordo "modern" and the Byzantine practice ancient. This may be true to an extent, but the Byzantine Liturgy isn't some preserved relic from the first century. It has evolved significantly since that time.

Also, the Novus Ordo, from my discussions with Roman Catholics, is abused here in the USA by many Roman Catholic Parishes.

From what I've seen of Tridentine Masses, they seem to also be beautiful and spiritual like our Liturgy, as both share common ancestry. I'd love to see a video of a Tridentine Mass in English.
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 05:44:49 AM »

a Tridentine Mass in English.

That isn't even allowed by the Vatican.
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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 08:12:47 AM »

I've been to waaayyy worse.  Angry

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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 12:34:28 PM »

I'd love to see a video of a Tridentine Mass in English.

Here are some snippets of the Gregorian Rite during Holy Week at St. George's Western Rite Orthodox Church. Not a full English Mass, but you can at least see what some of it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnahprZNJps

And here is one from Christmas Eve at Our Lady of Glastonbury, associated with Christminster Monastery, a Western Rite monastery under ROCOR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAuGDdAbQes&feature=player_embedded
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2013, 02:41:21 PM »

I wouldn't doubt it. The diocese I formally studied under had all sorts of strangeness - ranging from electric, rotating altars to leotard-clad nuns skipping along with the Gospel. People, however, have a tendency to focus on the extreme. The average Roman Catholic diocese is an eclectic mixture of parishes and Mass styles. In my experience, the average U.S. parish is a combination of conservative Catholic reverence with some occasional (and sometimes frequent) cheesy vestments and music (see contributions of 1960-1980). At the same time, every diocese is likely to possess several "traditional" parishes. There really is "something for everybody" (and you can be the judge of whether that is good or bad).

On the topic of the video, wasn't it produced by Catholics (to be used as a tool for self-reflection)?
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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 03:48:38 PM »

Here are some snippets of the Gregorian Rite during Holy Week at St. George's Western Rite Orthodox Church. Not a full English Mass, but you can at least see what some of it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnahprZNJps

And here is one from Christmas Eve at Our Lady of Glastonbury, associated with Christminster Monastery, a Western Rite monastery under ROCOR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAuGDdAbQes&feature=player_embedded

The comments on those videos from anti-WR Orthodox are rather disheartening.
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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 04:06:01 PM »

Here are some snippets of the Gregorian Rite during Holy Week at St. George's Western Rite Orthodox Church. Not a full English Mass, but you can at least see what some of it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnahprZNJps

And here is one from Christmas Eve at Our Lady of Glastonbury, associated with Christminster Monastery, a Western Rite monastery under ROCOR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAuGDdAbQes&feature=player_embedded

The comments on those videos from anti-WR Orthodox are rather disheartening.

Just angry people blowing hot air.  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 04:31:55 PM »

Here are some snippets of the Gregorian Rite during Holy Week at St. George's Western Rite Orthodox Church. Not a full English Mass, but you can at least see what some of it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnahprZNJps

And here is one from Christmas Eve at Our Lady of Glastonbury, associated with Christminster Monastery, a Western Rite monastery under ROCOR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAuGDdAbQes&feature=player_embedded

The comments on those videos from anti-WR Orthodox are rather disheartening.

Actually they're funny. They complain about the WR being an invention of the middle ages and not being from the apostles, which exactly describes the present DL.
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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 04:56:15 PM »


Its become a stage show anymore much more than when I attended Masses some 40 years ago......Who are the choreographers?
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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 06:42:21 PM »

I have been to several lovely Tridentine Masses in Oakland (CA), but they are most certainly not the norm in the Roman Church in my area.  Most of the Masses in the Oakland Diocese are worse than the Los Angeles RE Congress Mass depicted in the video.  I was even subjected to a "Clown" Mass at a parish I attended (only infrequently) during the time I was a member of the Roman Church, although in my defense I did not know that the priest intended to have clowns participating in the Mass, and I left during the middle of liturgy because I found it to be highly irreverent.
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« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 07:20:07 PM »

Actually they're funny. They complain about the WR being an invention of the middle ages and not being from the apostles, which exactly describes the present DL.

Good point. Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 07:51:41 PM »

a Tridentine Mass in English.

That isn't even allowed by the Vatican.

I know, that's why I said I'd love to see it. I can easily look at Tridentine Masses on YouTube but they're all in Latin.
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 09:31:08 PM »

Better comparison would be this...

Easter Vigil Mass in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome: http://youtu.be/Rt6KsGD75ug
Paschal Divine Liturgy in Cathedral of Christ Saviour in Moscow: http://youtu.be/mkAEc-YE1IM
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 05:56:11 AM »

I don't have the time to watch either, but I did notice - to my surprise - that the one from St Peter's is actually slightly longer than that from the Moscow Cathedral.
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 07:18:11 AM »

I don't have the time to watch either, but I did notice - to my surprise - that the one from St Peter's is actually slightly longer than that from the Moscow Cathedral.

The Orthodox Paschal service is actually four concurrent services: Paschal midnight office, Paschal matins, Paschal hours, and Paschal Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 07:45:32 AM »

I don't have the time to watch either, but I did notice - to my surprise - that the one from St Peter's is actually slightly longer than that from the Moscow Cathedral.

The Orthodox Paschal service is actually four concurrent services: Paschal midnight office, Paschal matins, Paschal hours, and Paschal Divine Liturgy.

That's the first fact. The second thing is that actually it would be better to compare Vesperal Liturgy of st. Basil served on Great Saturday to Easter Vigil Mass. The structure is more similar as they're both Liturgies of Holy Saturday evening.
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 11:41:41 AM »

I don't have the time to watch either, but I did notice - to my surprise - that the one from St Peter's is actually slightly longer than that from the Moscow Cathedral.

The Orthodox Paschal service is actually four concurrent services: Paschal midnight office, Paschal matins, Paschal hours, and Paschal Divine Liturgy.

That's the first fact. The second thing is that actually it would be better to compare Vesperal Liturgy of st. Basil served on Great Saturday to Easter Vigil Mass. The structure is more similar as they're both Liturgies of Holy Saturday evening.

I thought that was a video of the Vaticans midnight mass?
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 11:50:31 AM »

Better comparison would be this...

Easter Vigil Mass in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome: http://youtu.be/Rt6KsGD75ug
Paschal Divine Liturgy in Cathedral of Christ Saviour in Moscow: http://youtu.be/mkAEc-YE1IM

Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 11:59:25 AM »

I don't have the time to watch either, but I did notice - to my surprise - that the one from St Peter's is actually slightly longer than that from the Moscow Cathedral.

The Orthodox Paschal service is actually four concurrent services: Paschal midnight office, Paschal matins, Paschal hours, and Paschal Divine Liturgy.

That's the first fact. The second thing is that actually it would be better to compare Vesperal Liturgy of st. Basil served on Great Saturday to Easter Vigil Mass. The structure is more similar as they're both Liturgies of Holy Saturday evening.

I thought that was a video of the Vaticans midnight mass?

No, it's not midnight Mass. The Paschal Vigil is done in the evening of Holy Saturday, although I know some Roman Catholic parishes in Poland do it at midnight. In Vatican, as in most Roman Catholci Parishes, the first Mass is this one psoted in video, and the second one in the morning of Easter Sunday, which lasts 1-1,5 h
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2013, 12:09:07 PM »

What's the point of comparing different rites?
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2013, 12:15:21 PM »

I will offer an explanation for the lack of majesty in Roman Catholic worship, if not quite an apology (in either sense):

The prevailing theory in the Roman Church is very, shall we say, immanent. That is focusing on how Christ came to us, even the least of us, as one of the least of us, and making Mass very ordinary and incorporating our own culture, even some of the worst parts, to make Christ more relevant to us as we are now. There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

The polar opposite is those who like the "Tridentine" (properly called Extraordinary Form now) Mass. They have a very transcendent theory of the Mass, that is, God is essentially unknowable, and so it's fine if not preferable if the Mass is also shrouded in mystery and the congregation doesn't have to even directly participate, since its purpose is to bring us unworthy sinners closer to His Infinite Majesty. There is also an allergy against slighting the holiness of God in the least, but it can lead to the very Phariseeism the above group reacted against. In the extreme it leads to sedevacantism.

Eastern Catholic (and I would guess Orthodox) are between the two extremes, keeping the rite majestic but using a language usually the people can understand and involving them. Likewise the Roman Mass can be entirely chanted, in English and Latin/Greek for the more familiar chants, ad orientem, with the proper psalms and hymns translated from the Gregorian Chants in Latin that are still in the books. There is a tiny movement to do so but the average parish is far from ready to sign up, as very few actually complain that singing a new church into being is an act of schism  Wink Undecided
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 01:11:10 PM »

Thanks for the fair replies. A fairer comparison indeed is the Byzantine Rite and the traditional Roman Rite (Tridentine). That said, with the Second Vatican Council and the Novus Ordo, Rome 'asked for it'. Traditionalist Catholics from the moderately well-informed on up agree with you! The Novus Ordo's a mistake, a stinkeroo, and because the Tridentine Mass is still relatively rare now, this video's a valid criticism, even if you don't buy the maker's and the blogger's premise.

That said, the current Pope's started to turn this around, not only lifting all restrictions on the old Mass but fixing the English in the Novus Ordo so even liberal parishes have to get the words right, so it's sound in spite of them (even though, with ceremonial like shown here, they make it annoying/unedifying; 40-year-old cultural BS it'll take a while to weed out).

The Catholic liturgical movement before the council wanted to teach ordinary Catholics to know and love the Tridentine Mass and the divine office (the Roman Rite's horologion). With that in mind, it loved and studied the Orthodox and other rites.

Justin, I wouldn't say trads believe God is essentially unknowable. They are orthodox Chalcedonians (blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man, as a prayer at one Roman Rite service says: the creed/Symbol summed up). A mystery of orthodoxy, both Catholic and Orthodox, is God's both transcendent and immanent.

The rule's always been to have the traditional Roman Rite in Latin but that's discipline, not doctrine. I think a vernacular option for the Tridentine Mass's a great idea. Would-be Catholics in the Anglican churches wrote beautiful translations many years ago (circa 1911 for example), Rome's for the asking (and the base for what some Western Rite Orthodox use, as a link in this thread shows). I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Of course the Orthodox use liturgical languages too: Slavonic in Slavic countries; medieval Greek for the Greeks.
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2013, 01:38:32 PM »

Thanks for the fair replies. A fairer comparison indeed is the Byzantine Rite and the traditional Roman Rite (Tridentine).

How is it fair when the Tridentine is very far from being the normal rite in contemporary Catholicism? Most have never worshipped in it or can even say what it really is. While the ceremony and pomp of the Byzantine example is more grandiose, it is still essentially the same thing that is normal in every Orthodox church.
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2013, 01:42:40 PM »

Are any Catholic churches oriented east any more? I've noticed around here, all of them, even the ones built long before Vatican II, are oriented any way except east. Its kinda like they don't even know about it at all.
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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2013, 02:07:56 PM »

Jason, as I started with, in my last post, the replies here are fair as is the video's criticism, because so few people get to go to the Tridentine Mass.

As for eastward-facing, very few. Not enough of them!
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2013, 02:18:17 PM »

Are any Catholic churches oriented east any more? I've noticed around here, all of them, even the ones built long before Vatican II, are oriented any way except east. Its kinda like they don't even know about it at all.


Facibg east is nice when it can be done but never is required even in Orthodoxy. St Peters never faced east for one, the Cathedral of Christ Savior in Moscow also doesn't face East. Nor does the Holy Sepulchre...
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« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2013, 02:28:55 PM »

Are any Catholic churches oriented east any more? I've noticed around here, all of them, even the ones built long before Vatican II, are oriented any way except east. Its kinda like they don't even know about it at all.


Facing east is nice when it can be done but never is required even in Orthodoxy. St Peters never faced east for one, the Cathedral of Christ Savior in Moscow also doesn't face East. Nor does the Holy Sepulchre...

I think Jason is referring to ad apsidem, 'the priest's back to the people' as the liberals disparagingly say, or as we say, priest and people united in one direction. You're right that it was never required; it is simply longstanding custom. I think the high altar at St Peter's literally faces east, the old custom that the expression 'facing east' comes from, but the church doesn't. So in ancient and early medieval times, for the consecration, everybody faced east so the congregation turned their backs on the altar and priest!
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« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 02:43:26 PM »

Are any Catholic churches oriented east any more? I've noticed around here, all of them, even the ones built long before Vatican II, are oriented any way except east. Its kinda like they don't even know about it at all.


Facing east is nice when it can be done but never is required even in Orthodoxy. St Peters never faced east for one, the Cathedral of Christ Savior in Moscow also doesn't face East. Nor does the Holy Sepulchre...

I think Jason is referring to ad apsidem, 'the priest's back to the people' as the liberals disparagingly say, or as we say, priest and people united in one direction. You're right that it was never required; it is simply longstanding custom. I think the high altar at St Peter's literally faces east, the old custom that the expression 'facing east' comes from, but the church doesn't. So in ancient and early medieval times, for the consecration, everybody faced east so the congregation turned their backs on the altar and priest!

Well even in ancient times, in many of the rites of the church, the priest faced the people rather than liturgical east.

As someone in the architecture profession, having the building facing literal east opens up really nice opportunities for lighting which you see in many orthodox churches and Catholic Churches even today.
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« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2013, 06:32:18 PM »

I've been to some beautiful Masses in my life, but they tended to be the exception. Most parish-level Masses are "OK" at best and appalling at worst. And I say that as someone who used to go to daily (weekday) Masses in Los Angeles *every day* before going to work. Yes, it gave me the spiritual kick-start I needed, but now that I've experienced what a "regular, everyday" Divine Liturgy is like, those daily Masses were like having a piece of Melba toast for breakfast compared to a Grand Slam at Denny's.  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2013, 06:45:47 PM »

I agree that videos like these are never fair comparisons and are always polemical in nature.  There are Orthodox parishes who also have problems with their Liturgy (I've had a priest tell me about speed Liturgies and speed Funeral Rites in an Orthodox parish) so if we really want to hurl unpleasantries in either direction, there is a lot of material out there for each side to put the other to shame.
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2013, 07:08:29 PM »

I agree that videos like these are never fair comparisons and are always polemical in nature.  There are Orthodox parishes who also have problems with their Liturgy (I've had a priest tell me about speed Liturgies and speed Funeral Rites in an Orthodox parish) so if we really want to hurl unpleasantries in either direction, there is a lot of material out there for each side to put the other to shame.
Agreed completely.
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« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2013, 09:17:56 PM »

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.
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« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2013, 09:36:26 PM »

I am sure some people will not like what I am about to say, but the whole division of the liturgical services of the Roman Church into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" reminds me of the 1970s Episcopal Church in the USA with its "Rite 1" and "Rite 2."

And just as "Rite 2" (i.e., the contemporary rite) in the Episcopal Church involved updating and banalizing the liturgy, so too the "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite involves the same type of liturgical impoverishment.  I have been to "Ordinary Form" Masses in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and have found most to be just as bad as the LA Religious Congress liturgies.
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2013, 09:52:52 PM »

Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.

St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2013, 09:57:59 PM »

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.

One thing I loved about many of the Orthodox I meet online is that they are not ashamed of the truth, even if it seesm to be siding with a position that is against or opposite their normal position.  Most Catholics I come across online (*cough* *CAF*) would staunchly defend the perceived position of the Catholic Church regardless of what was true or even sane.
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2013, 10:03:39 PM »

Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.

St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.
Actually, because the altar is in the Western end of the Church, the pope does celebrate ad orientem.  In fact, as Fr. Louis Bouyer pointed out in one of his books, it was the people, and not the pope, who had to turn around in order to face East during liturgies in St. Peter's (both old and new).
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2013, 10:25:04 PM »

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.

FWIW I do love the Western Church when it's at its best - it just hasn't been at its best lately (like in the past 40-50 years).  Grin

But ... I'm rereading my all-time favorite novel, "In This House of Brede" by Rumer Godden - and if any of you have ever read it, you know exactly what I mean when I say, THAT'S the Western Church I remember and love - and keep hoping to find again ...  Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2013, 11:08:02 PM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2013, 11:42:58 PM »

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2013, 11:53:52 PM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

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« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2013, 06:42:42 AM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

Because Latin is awesome.
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« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2013, 08:11:56 AM »

I am sure some people will not like what I am about to say, but the whole division of the liturgical services of the Roman Church into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" reminds me of the 1970s Episcopal Church in the USA with its "Rite 1" and "Rite 2."

And just as "Rite 2" (i.e., the contemporary rite) in the Episcopal Church involved updating and banalizing the liturgy, so too the "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite involves the same type of liturgical impoverishment.  I have been to "Ordinary Form" Masses in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and have found most to be just as bad as the LA Religious Congress liturgies.

Good analogy. You'd think that the difference between Catholic and Episcopal doctrine would have made the Catholics have a conservative high-church option like Rite I after Vatican II and the Episcopalians (most of whom identify as Protestant) not but that's not what happened. As Thomas Day describes in his books, English-speaking Catholics are less attached to elaborate ceremonies than other Catholics, for historical reasons nothing to do with the theology; partly because of that, the liberals in the Catholic Church were ruthless suppressing the old ways once they came into power. And why in those countries there wasn't a big traditionalist pushback. Definitely a theological civil war. The Episcopalians despite their liberalism don't have that aversion to high ceremonial. (A reason liberal Catholics don't all just convert to that.)

Interesting how I understand Rite I came about. They didn't just keep the old service or slightly edit it like it seems. They started with the rewrite, creating Rite II, then retrofitted it to make the more old-fashioned-sounding Rite I. In many places it was a polite, workable compromise for many years: the relatively conservative got the early Sunday service, the more liberal the later one.

By the way, I think the little Polish National Catholic Church in America, an 1890s immigrant split from Catholicism (parallelling the Toth departures to Orthodoxy), did keep a traditional service, their Tridentine Mass in Polish, as an option alongside their Contemporary Mass in English, which most of them now use, which, like Rite II, largely copies the Novus Ordo.

It's ironic the Episcopalians banalized their service over 30 years ago partly to imitate the Catholics for ecumenical reasons, while at the same time moving farther from Catholicism by ordaining women for example. Then again the Catholic changes were a protestantization. As far as I know they're not changing Rite II to go along with Pope Benedict's conservative reform of the Novus Ordo in English. I don't know if the PNCC is changing its service.

Makes the Old Believer schism and the Orthodox calendar war look like small potatoes!

I think the only prayers in English that Catholics are sentimentally attached to are the ones they've used for centuries in the Rosary, the Our Father and Hail Mary, which are 'thou' everywhere, even in the Our Father at Mass. The Glory Be is pretty inflexible in practice too, though they say 'Holy Spirit', not 'Holy Ghost'. Makes sense. Beyond that, they have no long tradition of worshipping in English. Probably why Pope Benedict's fixes at the end of 2011, while thrilling to the theologically sound, weren't a big deal to most people in the pews.
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« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2013, 10:23:08 AM »

By the way, I think the little Polish National Catholic Church in America, an 1890s immigrant split from Catholicism (parallelling the Toth departures to Orthodoxy), did keep a traditional service, their Tridentine Mass in Polish, as an option alongside their Contemporary Mass in English, which most of them now use, which, like Rite II, largely copies the Novus Ordo.

A point of interest: a couple years ago the PNCC changed "and with your spirit" to "and also with you".

But, generally, I agree with you.
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« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2013, 11:56:06 AM »

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

Even in L.A. it's slowly happening with the new Opus Dei Archbishop Gomez. The Mahony era is over.

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« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2013, 12:22:42 PM »

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

It is because the Tridentine Mass is the Mass celebrated by Jesus himself during the Last Supper in Latin, transcribed by St. John, infallibly declared by St. Peter to be the one true Mass and commanded the other Apostles who were under him to use this Mass throughout time unchanged.

 Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2013, 12:25:52 PM »

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

Because the TM was supposed to be a standardisation to prevent liturgical abuses that were present before the Reformation.
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« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2013, 12:37:48 PM »

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2013, 01:16:07 PM »

I agree with lubeltri that it's like iconoclasm.

Regarding the rule on Latin, I think it was also an answer to some Protestants who claimed that if the people don't understand the service, it doesn't give them grace.

Thinking more about the Rites I and II comparison, the traditional Mass is like the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and its unofficial catholicized versions such as the American Missal (the 1928 Communion service fitted into the structure of the Tridentine Mass), the Episcopal Church's 'pre-Vatican II' services, actually banned in at least some dioceses after the change in 1979, rather like the traditional Mass in much of the Catholic Church until recently. (I think they need the bishop's permission to use that, just like the Tridentine Mass in most of the Catholic Church from 1984 until 2007.) Rite I is like the 'reform of the reform' conservative Catholics who high-churchify the Novus Ordo so it resembles the traditional Mass, something maybe you saw a little more of before Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago. But maybe with different intentions? Reform-of-the-reform Catholics are conservative. I think the writers of Rite I were liberals trying to get conservatives on board with their program by disguising the new service as almost like the old. Some trads suspect the reform of the reform of being a con like that. By the way, the Church of England has done the same thing ever since its changes, offering a 'thou' version of its new services.

The PNCC well could have used 'and with your spirit' in its Contemporary Mass until recently but I find that hard to believe. It used to have a better website, which had that Mass text. I remember a close copy of the Novus Ordo as it was at the time. The PNCC at its best has an aspect of down-home traditionalism, from Polish culture.
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« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2013, 01:46:45 PM »

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

Even in L.A. it's slowly happening with the new Opus Dei Archbishop Gomez. The Mahony era is over.


I hope you're right, but I find it sad that Archbishop Gomez continues to participate (as the main celebrant) in these weird Religious Education Congress liturgies.
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« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »

Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.
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« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2013, 01:56:13 PM »

Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.

Indeed it does.
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« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2013, 02:46:55 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2013, 02:53:58 PM »

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.

I certainly do. The liturgical crisis has had profound theological effects. Read this for more:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586171275
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« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2013, 02:54:50 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.
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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2013, 03:03:21 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Liturgy over another in the same Ritual Church.

But the traditional church isn't monolithic. Different countries have different customs, and of course there are different rites in one communion. For example the West has the Ambrosian (Milanese) Rite or Use depending on how you count it (is something that shares the Roman Canon with the Roman Rite really a separate rite?) and of course there are the Eastern rites starting with partial conversions or (mostly failed) attempts to bring back the Orthodox and other Eastern churches, like the small Western Rite experiments in Orthodoxy that some Orthodox don't like for similar reasons.

I thought of some of this when writing about Rites I and II and their equivalents. As long as the new service isn't heretical and the old service isn't banned, and even though writing a liturgy from scratch is wrong (but not heretical), sure, try it out. Have 'the kids' Mass' in the side chapel or something as the late Mass. By the way 'the kids' don't want the guitars, etc. That's baby-boomers nostalgic for their late '60s-'70s youth. liberals but the last generation to go to church out of social obligation. The kids either aren't religious (a lot of them*) or want something more traditional. An 80-some-year-old Pope has 20-30-year-old fans.

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.

*Catholicism's white ethnic base in America is going away, aging and dying like the liberal Protestants, but Mexican immigration keeps Catholic numbers artificially nearly steady.
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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2013, 03:51:53 PM »

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.

time certainly flew since i last saw you and lubeltri!
it's great to see you both posting.

i think the difficult thing with the catholic church is that they did good stuff (letting people understand what they say about God) and bad stuff (thinking it's cool to be 'modern' and dump some traditions) at the same time.
so not singing in latin got linked in people's minds with giving up the Christian message and just being 'nice' people, helping the neighbours, not bothering to get around to marrying your boyfriend and generally decreasing the fasting, praying and getting to know God well.

changing the custom to use a language people actually understand is not 'useful modernising', it is vital 'returning to our ancient traditions'. Jesus spoke to His disciples in their language, the disciples preached around the world in the modern international language of the day and the churches translated the liturgy into the local languages as soon as they could from the internationally used greek.
i have met several catholic Christians who are sticking to the good traditions and show their light to those around them, and i pray to see more of this and less of making the Christian life 'easy' so people can follow it with no effort (and therefore no reward).
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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2013, 04:02:33 PM »

*Catholicism's white ethnic base in America is going away, aging and dying like the liberal Protestants, but Mexican immigration keeps Catholic numbers artificially nearly steady.

FTFY

*Orthodoxy's ethnic base in America is going away, leaving, aging and dying with their children never returning, but new converts and immigrants keep Orthodox numbers artificially nearly steady.
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« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

Two things: first (as I've said before on this forum) there is a difference between a church and a rite, and in particular between the Latin Church and the Roman Rite.

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2013, 04:08:17 PM »

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get it to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?
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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2013, 04:11:02 PM »

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?

Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?

Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.

More to the point, the non-Roman western rites have been restricted to a small number of dioceses for so long that very few people know about them or want them to be un-restricted.
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2013, 04:47:16 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.
The Catholic youth I know attend both "mass" and Protestant churches.

I once asked a girl what faith she was and she responded "Catholic Christian." I asked, "you know that Catholics are Christians, right?" And she said "Yea, but, I'm Christian too, I go to Christian Churches too!" And I weekly see conversations of her and her friends deciding whether they want to go to the "Cowboy church" or "mass." Ack! Sometimes I am tempted to ask them if they can name the saints on their bracelets or say a "hail mary" on the rosary around their necks.

But I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the same with some Orthodox youth.
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2013, 06:06:22 PM »

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
Essentially that happened over hundreds of years as Rome got more and more control, basically ending at Trent when every rite that couldn't be proved to have been in continuous use for something like 200 years was abolished. That didn't leave much else standing besides the Roman Rite.



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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2013, 06:11:10 PM »

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.
So, would that make those sedevacantist groups that say the Mass of Paul VI is in fact heretical, the Popes who accept it are heretics and not Popes at all, and the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960 like the Old Believers?  Wink
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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2013, 06:13:32 PM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.
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« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2013, 06:16:35 PM »

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
The "official position" is one rite in two forms, ordinary (Mass almost everywhere) and extraordinary ("Tridentine Mass" last revised in 1962).

Regardless, there is definitely divison, open dissent (Society of St. Paul X) and even schism over it and the rest of the results of Vatican II.
the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

poor form.
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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2013, 06:37:41 PM »

From the National Catholic Register (28 December 2012):

Tidings of Discomfort and Liturgical Abuse
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« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2013, 06:40:56 PM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.
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« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2013, 06:53:35 PM »

That prancing Deacon is so funny !
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« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2013, 07:58:50 PM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)
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« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2013, 08:49:51 PM »

That prancing Deacon is so funny !

Yes, that and the Call to Action "puppet mass" are two classic videos to watch while somewhat inebriated. Oh, and the Schönborn Balloon Mass and the Austrian Dixie Confederate BBQ Mass. My friends and I get together once in a while to drink and laugh our butts off at one of these ridiculous videos.

One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2013, 09:20:55 PM »

One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM
Wow. I can't believe how many minutes that went on for.
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« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2013, 02:05:32 AM »

About the Palmarians (bolded section my emphasis):

Quote
Since 1983 the Palmarian Church has drastically reformed its rites and its liturgy, which previously had been styled in the Tridentine form. The Palmarian liturgy was reduced to almost solely the Eucharistic words of consecration. The See of El Palmar de Troya has also declared the Real Presence of the Virgin Mary in the sacred host and the bodily assumption into heaven of St. Joseph to be dogmas of the Catholic faith. By 2000, they had their own version of the Bible, revised by Domínguez on claimed prophetic authority. For these and other reasons, other traditionalist Catholics consider the Palmarian Church to be heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmarian_Catholic_Church

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« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2013, 02:28:56 AM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos, intercommunion occurring and other such things going on. It got worse over those 150 years, culminating in the 4th Crusade which ensured the split was final and lasting. After that point there wasn't gray area nor any doubt.
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2013, 05:03:58 AM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos,

under Constantinople...
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2013, 07:12:54 AM »


One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM

That's uhm... interesting to say the least!
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2013, 07:54:04 AM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos, intercommunion occurring and other such things going on. It got worse over those 150 years, culminating in the 4th Crusade which ensured the split was final and lasting. After that point there wasn't gray area nor any doubt.

I just don't see how 1204 can be considered the end of the "gray area". It makes a lot more sense to point to either the Second Council of Lyons or the Council of Florence. (Personally, I'm inclined toward the latter.)

Some might argue that the outcome of Lyons II was inevitable, more of less, because of 1204; and perhaps they'd be right, but Lyons II didn't happen until it happened, if you know what I mean.
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2013, 12:13:27 PM »

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.
So, would that make those sedevacantist groups that say the Mass of Paul VI is in fact heretical, the Popes who accept it are heretics and not Popes at all, and the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960 like the Old Believers?  Wink

Yes!
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2013, 08:04:09 PM »

From the National Catholic Register (28 December 2012):

Tidings of Discomfort and Liturgical Abuse

Not to put too fine a point on his "because I'm not Protestant," but most of these bad practices started out in American RC churches.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2013, 08:08:23 PM »

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

A lot. I didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday. I've been going to their church almost three years.
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2013, 08:09:37 PM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing Cheesy

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2013, 02:51:07 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.



And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.



It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.
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« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2013, 02:59:32 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.



And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.



It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.


Now I want to move to New York!  (Or at least much, much closer to a ByzCath parish than we are.)  Sheesh, what you describe makes the N.O. mass celebrated (actually quite reverently) at the RC church we attend look like some kind of Quaker meeting.  May God bestow abundant blessings upon Fr. Rutler and his congregation!!!
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« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2013, 03:06:13 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?
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« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2013, 03:24:28 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em
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« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2013, 03:42:34 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.
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« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2013, 05:18:53 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

 Smiley Yay!
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« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing Cheesy

 Roll Eyes

What other reason is there for using Latin and not at the very least, repeating the reading in the vernacular tongue?
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« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2013, 06:58:27 PM »

Ok, I am Russian Orthodox and would like to know what exactly is wrong with the RC mass in the video? I do not mean that there is nothing wrong, but I suspect that there are different opinions about what is wrong.

The dancing deacon should stop, yes. But what else?

Is contemporary music wrong?  I rather like Metr. Hilarion's contemporary Christmas Oratorio and would be delighted to hear part of that at church. Russian chant is not part of the Apostolic Deposit of the Faith. Is Russian chant OK but gospel wrong?

I actually found the apparent joy at the RC service rather attractive. Oh we Orthodox have a lot of joy--our Russian DL is sublime, yet also joyful. But I have found most RC services that I attend (my wife is RC) to be rather dry and uninspiring. I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.
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« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2013, 07:03:05 PM »

I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

That's the main problem for me - you can never be sure what liturgical abuses there will be at any given Mass, so it's kind of hard to let yourself relax and feel uplifted.

If you're able to turn a blind eye to the abuses and benefit spiritually, then more power to you.  Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2013, 07:39:43 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.
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« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2013, 07:52:55 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
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« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.
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« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2013, 07:55:46 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.
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« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2013, 07:58:40 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  Grin
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« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2013, 09:38:51 PM »

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.
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« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2013, 09:44:27 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.
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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2013, 09:48:07 PM »

Are there any videos?

Good question -- not only in the way that you mean it, but also regarding
One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!).
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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2013, 09:59:31 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  Grin

No, you're not wrong. The requirement was loosened up in a misguided effort to get rid of "legalism". As usual, this relaxation was accompanied by exortations to continue the traditional practice (sigh). Of course serious Catholics know to do more than the "bare minimum required".
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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2013, 10:03:10 PM »

"OrthodoxEngland" is one truly disturbed and disturbing website. On a number of levels. If you dig a bit you'd probably find the Protocols there too. I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.
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« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2013, 10:32:15 AM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!
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« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 12:50:11 PM »

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...

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« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 01:04:37 PM »

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites.

It could be interpreted as a missionary strategy. If you want converts, you must give them reasons to convert. And such a video speaks volumes (of otherwise arid Orthodox apologetics, about palamism vs. thomism, sobornost vs. papacy, etc). Liturgical aesthetics have always been the most successful missionary (and political) strategy of Byzantium - remember the story of prince Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople?  Τέτοια πράγματα θαμπώνουν τοὺς βαρβάρους as Kavafis put it...
   
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« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 01:11:25 PM »

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 01:12:22 PM »

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...



I didn't watch the video--can't on this computer--, but that's an interesting thought.  Reminds me of this:
Quote
Ps.149
[1] Praise the LORD!
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the faithful!
[2] Let Israel be glad in his Maker,
let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King!
[3] Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with timbrel and lyre!
[4] For the LORD takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with victory
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=2154323
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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central.

(...)

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.

See, Catholics are catching up and finally reacting to Orthodox/traditionalist missionary strategies. Just emulating or letting oneself be inspired by Byzantine iconography won't do anymore - a Chinese faithful reproduction is needed!

The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.     
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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 02:13:24 PM »

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.

I personally think that Latinization is not a bad thing, but should be done in the right context.  What is absorbed must be in harmony with the Eastern traditions and must be done from within, not from external pressure.  What is bad with Latinizations so far is that it is either externally influenced, or people pick up Latin traditions for the sake of it without regard for Eastern tradition and belief.
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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 02:15:51 PM »

Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It takes a disenchanted, post-lapsarian, post-Christian view of the world to accede to that awful 'truth'. Now that's neither remarkable, nor rarely achieved these days.

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also...  
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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 02:19:30 PM »

Quote
I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It's a backhanded acknowledgement the two churches are so similar. Catholicism's the West's No. 1 church so they're afraid of it. They're probably much less defensive on Orthodoxy's turf: Greece, Russia etc.

Right, a one-hour fast before receiving Communion; water's allowed. A rule the Catholic Church can and does change.

In Catholicism, if you think you've committed what is objectively a mortal sin, you have to go to confession and be absolved before receiving Communion. No mortal sin, no confession unless you want to.

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

Quote
The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.

No.

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. Some say Irish piety is cyclical; one generation's lapsed, the next pious. It's on the downswing now. Anyway, the Irish at first pretty much went along with the king's breaking with Rome mostly because the conservative clergy did a good job of hiding it so religion in the parishes was pretty much the same. The first people in Ireland to rebel against the king's break with Rome were the ethnic English living around Dublin. So arguably you can credit them for the identity 'Irish Catholic'. (So much for Irish Catholics hating the English, which isn't universally true.) The then-state church didn't really become noticeably Protestant until later in the 1500s, when the Irish caught on that it wasn't Catholic anymore and said no. The ethnic English upper class there remained Catholic for a few generations. But eventually the Anglican Church there because the church of the English rulers, definitely Protestant, not Anglo-Catholic. Just like in England it kept all the medieval cathedrals and parish churches but again the religion was Protestant.

Anglo-Catholicism began in England in the 1800s, ironically as partly a reaction to Britain giving Catholics the vote so the government sensibly decided to shut down four Irish Anglican dioceses since the Irish didn't go to those churches; the Anglican churchmen who started Anglo-Catholicism protested that their church has divine authority so the state can't do that. Their movement never took in Ireland; neither the Anglicans there nor the Irish Catholics wanted it. And anyway, the later Anglo-Catholics, in historical irony, ended up imitating the Catholic Church and weren't interested in trying to convert Irish Catholics to their church. So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Rite controls what you do in church, for good order. Devotion is freestyle. Latinizations are fine as long as they're old, don't take over from the native rite, and aren't imposed on people when the native rite has perfectly good practices.
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« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 02:44:06 PM »

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interested in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?
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« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 02:49:51 PM »

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interest in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?

Some well-meaning Western artists use the style of iconography without learning its rules. I like what Fr Rutler had done.

There are one or two semi-Anglo-Catholic parish churches (now liberal like the Episcopalians) the ethnic English built for themselves in big cities such as Belfast and Dublin.
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« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2013, 02:58:46 PM »

Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It takes a disenchanted, post-lapsarian, post-Christian view of the world to accede to that awful 'truth'. Now that's neither remarkable, nor rarely achieved these days.

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also...  
People in general pretty much intuit it and plan accordingly: like, being late, taking a break for a cigarette and a chat in the courtyard, hanging out in the courtyard etc. I mean nothing disparaging when I say boring. Things are as they ought.
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« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2013, 03:03:06 PM »

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites.

It could be interpreted as a missionary strategy. If you want converts, you must give them reasons to convert. And such a video speaks volumes (of otherwise arid Orthodox apologetics, about palamism vs. thomism, sobornost vs. papacy, etc). Liturgical aesthetics have always been the most successful missionary (and political) strategy of Byzantium - remember the story of prince Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople?  Τέτοια πράγματα θαμπώνουν τοὺς βαρβάρους as Kavafis put it...
   
"Till we have built Byzantium/In Englands green & pleasant Land"
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« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

Quote
People in general pretty much intuit it and plan accordingly: like, being late, taking a break for a cigarette and a chat in the courtyard, hanging out in the courtyard etc.

Normal life in traditional Catholic and Orthodox countries?
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« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2013, 03:22:23 PM »

There are one or two semi-Anglo-Catholic parish churches (now liberal like the Episcopalians) the ethnic English built for themselves in big cities such as Belfast and Dublin.

Sorry, you are right - I had seen a BBC documentary by Samuel Jenkins about English churches. He was actually speaking about St. Augustine's in Kilburn, London: "They (the rich parishioners in London's West End) wanted what amounted to a mission to convert the Irish immigrants of Kilburn. They wanted to meet the challenge of Roman Catholicism on the front line."

In another episode there was talk of rival (Catholic and Anglican) cathedrals in Northern Ireland, which were dedicated to the same patron Saint. It all became mixed up in my head... I stand corrected. 
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« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2013, 03:25:00 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  

Not to get off topic, but you're selling yourself short. You said that he has "no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics" so that shows that you know something pretty significant about him.

What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.

I think we all know those 4 things about Clemente, excepting the fact that he cannot "know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith" since that's open to interpretation.

Edited because I posted too quickly.
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« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2013, 03:40:01 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all. 

Not to get off topic, but you're selling yourself short. You said that he has "no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics" so that shows that you know something pretty significant about him.

What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.

I think we all know those 4 things about Clemente.

Then each of us probably knows him as well as the other.  Unless someone knows him better. Wink
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« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2013, 03:40:33 PM »

I mean nothing disparaging when I say boring. Things are as they ought.

This may mean either that 1) things ought to be boring, or 2) despite things (the services) being as they ought (properly and reverently conducted), people are nevertheless bored.

What I was trying to say is that the cause for boredom lies in the heart of the attendant and not necessarily in the service. A godly Christian (the ultimate bore, to some) can put up with many imperfections in a church service (even liturgical abuses), and still not feel the need to go out for a cigarette break in the churchyard.  
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« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2013, 03:41:27 PM »

I kind of find it funny. Although can it be said of an orthodox church, that sort of worship seen in the video by the roman catholics is done by the orthodox?
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« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2013, 04:09:25 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
i

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.
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« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2013, 04:13:06 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

Use logical fallacies much?

If knowing a billion Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for being able to make observations about Roman Catholic praxis, than no one here may discuss Roman Catholic praxis, including you.

Since I never said "all" Roman Catholics, I certainly am not bound by your ridiculous standard.
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« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2013, 04:16:57 PM »

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."
i

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teacing is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

I would say that there are those who do fast from midnight.  I used to do that as a Roman Catholic, but only when I am going to Mass in the morning.  So I don't eat anything at all until after Mass.  I know some people who do the same thing.  Wake up just in time to shower, get dressed and go to Mass.  But given that Mass does occur throughout the day on Sundays, those who attend later Masses do eat at some point in the day before going to Mass.
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« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2013, 04:20:28 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!

I am 100% sure you need to brush up on your basic logic.



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« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »



My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

Use logical fallacies much?

If knowing a billion Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for being able to make observations about Roman Catholic praxis, than no one here may discuss Roman Catholic praxis, including you.

Since I never said "all" Roman Catholics, I certainly am not bound by your ridiculous standard.

Then don't use a broad, over-generalized phrase like "Roman Catholics do or don't.....", implying that you know the habits and praxis of more than just the few you may be personally acquainted with or otherwise have some personal knowledge of.  In other words, be specific and talk about what you know rather than what you might quite mistakenly surmise about others or infer about them from the behavior of a few.

The "standard" was purposely ridiculous to draw attention to the fact that you appear to generalize from a few to the many, which of course, in the context of what you wrote, is...ridiculous and inaccurate.

Re-read the very first sentence of my original reply to you.
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« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2013, 04:31:40 PM »

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  Wink!

I am 100% sure you need to brush up on your basic logic.


Well, that might be true.  But is there an inaccuracy in what I wrote above?
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« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2013, 04:51:01 PM »

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Othodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendence fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Let me be so bold as to say that I find it hard to believe that you have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving.

Is there any evidence from Tradition for an hour fast before communing? I know of none and seriously question if we can really consider this fasting in the Biblical sense.

Good question. My impression is that there isn't.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.
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« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2013, 05:12:44 PM »



Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.

I'd pretty much agree with what you say above, Peter.  In my experience, Orthodox and Eastern Catholic parishes are so much smaller than the RC parishes I've seen or been to that the priest will have much more personal knowledge of the people communing and whether they are "worthy" to receive (not that any of us really ever are!) or not, and can question those people he's not familiar with.  Otherwise, in RC parishes, especially the larger ones, I think we put our trust in non-Catholics to know (or find out about) and respect the requirements for receiving Holy Communion.
 
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« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2013, 05:10:28 PM »

Regarding fasting, I have never met a Latin Rite Roman Catholic who has fasted from midnight before taking the Eucharist, an ancient practice in the Church that in mentioned in Hippolytus' Apostolic Traditions (3 AD) and is faithfully carried on today in the Orthodox Church. My sample size is relatively large: many Opus Dei family and friends and attendance fortnightly of Roman Catholic masses for the past decade. So I think I can at least generalise about the Roman Catholic praxis in Spain (I know the Eastern Catholic praxis is different, but the video clearly showed a Latin Rite mass). By contrast, I have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving (though surely they exist). So, in my experience, there is a vast difference in praxis regarding fasting.

Let me be so bold as to say that I find it hard to believe that you have never met an Orthodox who does not fast from the previous night before receiving.

Regarding communing without confession, I recognise the RC teaching you mention. In practice, I know the official RC teaching is widely abused because I know many who take communion in the RC church without ever attending confession (including a number of Protestant friends). I have never seen anyone, ever, who has been turned away from the chalice in a Roman Catholic mass (and again, I have attended over 200 during the last decade in Europe and the US). By contrast, someone is turned away from the chalice at my Orthodox parish about every other week (usually because they have not confessed recently). No RC or Protestant could just show up at my parish and commune. Also, I have never taken the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church without first having confessed at that church.  So again, the praxis appears to be very different.

Not all Catholics will agree with me, but the way I see it is that we are trusting non-Catholics not to present themselves for communion -- or, if a non-Catholic does wish to receive communion, to request it with a suitable explanation of the circumstances.

Let me be so bold as to say you should be less bold.

I understand the Roman church uses a sort of honour system (as do most Protestant churches) regarding whether one is prepared to approach the chalice. My worry, based on a significant sample size, is that it leads to people partaking who have not confessed recently. This is an abuse of Roman teaching that doesn't show up on these videos but is much more worrying in my opinion.

The RC abuse problem cannot be blamed on large Roman parishes either. At the Orthodox Cathedral of the Holy Virgin in San Francisco, for example, they warn visitors that they must confess with a parish priest before partaking:
Quote
All Orthodox Christians are welcome to have Communion at the Cathedral provided they have Confession the night before receiving Communion. Confession can be heard by the Cathedral clergy or with your own parish priest/spiritual father. It is not acceptable to ask the Cathedral clergy for Confession during the Liturgy unless you are extremely frail, ill or disabled. It is tradition in the Russian Orthodox Church to have Confession prior to Communion and we ask all our Orthodox guests to honor this practice. "Prior to" Communion doesn't mean 6 or 12 months ago or even two weeks ago. Also, insisting at the Holy Chalice that you have a blessing from your spiritual father to have Communion without the necessary preparation is unacceptable.

I have never seen anything similar in an RC church, let alone RC cathedral.
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« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2013, 06:42:47 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue

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« Reply #138 on: January 08, 2013, 06:49:21 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

Mine certainly doesn't insist on this.
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« Reply #139 on: January 08, 2013, 07:05:17 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

Mine certainly doesn't insist on this.
Nor does mine and it is also Russian Orthodox.

Yet both the Orthodox Church and the RC church insist on frequent confession. My point is that this teaching is often abused in the RC church, at least based on my significant RC experience in Spain (which at one time was a devout RC country so should be a relevant data point). The RC "honour system" regarding approaching the chalice leads to such abuse, I would posit.



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« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2013, 07:10:06 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue
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« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2013, 08:33:28 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...
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« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:36 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.
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« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2013, 06:35:39 AM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.

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« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2013, 08:54:35 AM »

Well, I agree with you that it's essentially an "honor system". However, it seems to me (and perhaps biro feels this way too) that you're just harping on the subject repetitively.
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« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.



So, having attended roughly 260 Masses (out of how many that are celebrated in Spain every day?) you've observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RC's (also your friends?) commune about 50 times?  If they were your friends why did you or your wife not gently inquire of them why they were doing this and inform them of Church policy?  I have done so with friends of mine who aren't Catholic and were about to approach for Communion.  If they were not your friends, how do you know that they were not in a state to approach for Communion?  Of all the Catholics in Spain or elsewhere that are not your friends or acquaintances, how can you possibly know how often the go to the Sacrament of Confession?

While Spain is certainly considered a Catholic country, your "sample" may actually be smaller than you think:
Quote
Today, there are 90% of Spaniards are baptized as Roman Catholics, but fewer than 3/4ths of the population identify themselves as Roman Catholic. Of those who regard themselves as Catholic, 50% are non-practicing.
http://blogs.longwood.edu/spain2011/2011/06/02/the-not-so-catholic-spain/
Sad, isn't it?

Btw, Spain has a population of about 47 million, making the non-practicing number of Catholics, according to the above figures, roughly 16 million, out of a total world population of Catholics of about 1 billion (and yes, I do realize that that number probably includes people who are non-practicing).  How many people attended the approx. 260 Masses you happened to attend?  See what I'm getting at?

Are there people who approach the chalice in Catholic churches who shouldn't?  Yes.  Does anyone know how many do so and how often?  I seriously doubt it.  Does it happen more in some countries (like Spain) than others?  Quite likely.  Is it to be taken lightly?  Definitely not!  Is there a practical solution that can be implemented universally and with relative ease?  I don't know.  Does can anyone know how often any given population of Catholics goes to confession?  I seriously doubt that, too. 

So, yes, there's a problem.  The extent of it actually is, I would contend, almost impossible to know.
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« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2013, 05:35:24 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic. He said non-Catholics could instead come up for a blessing, but nobody did and there were only a handful of Catholics present.
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« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2013, 07:36:05 PM »

I guess Orthodox Christians only approach in a state of perfection, or else they don't go. Because they are better than those durn RCCers, and they never tell a lie. Also, by far most of the Orthodox jurisdictions do not insist on one Confession per Communion, but don't let a little thing like accuracy stop you.

 Tongue



I guess Roman Catholics only use sarcasm when approaching legitimate, troubling concerns about their church's praxis, or else they don't go there.  Tongue

I guess this thread is headed to a smarmy place ...

Too late.

He can't possibly know about all the Roman and Eastern Catholics and the state in which they approach Communion. But he's going to bruit about this snide attitude that they must all be doing it wrong.

And people wonder why I failed in two churches and why I don't think I have any kind of church home anymore. Why it's been so depressing the last few years...

But he won't change, and that's okay. 'Cause he's Orthodox, that's why.

Instead of considering my legitimate concerns, you have chosen to shoot the messenger with sarcasm and flail him with fallacies. That is a pity.

You are also evidently not reading this thread very carefully, because I have never said that "all" RCs approach communion improperly. The "I cannot generalise because I do not know a billion Roman Catholics" argument has been tried by another poster as well. I have already exempted Eastern Catholics and clearly the video here is of a Latin mass. If knowing all Roman Catholics is your necessary condition for making observations about RC praxis, we might as well just shut down this section of OC.net. Then, amazingly, you violate your own rule against generalisation by generalising about me--"he won't change"--and you do not know me! You are just stifling discussion that apparently doesn't suit you and airing your otherwise frustration.

I do hope you find a spiritual home but your current homelessness is not my fault.

Again, I am married to an Opus Dei RC and have attend RC mass fortnightly for a decade. Yes, I have a sufficient sample size to make some observations: I have observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RCs take communion about 50 times. Clearly these are not confessing frequently. Is my experience unique?

You may choose to ignore or reject my observations, but clearly the RC "honour system" in approaching the chalice makes my observations plausible. Can you at least recognise the plausibility of communing improperly in the RC church? I am not the only person who has observed this; indeed I have heard numerous RCs lament that the sacrament of confession has fallen into desuetude.



So, having attended roughly 260 Masses (out of how many that are celebrated in Spain every day?) you've observed Protestant friends and non-churchgoing RC's (also your friends?) commune about 50 times?  If they were your friends why did you or your wife not gently inquire of them why they were doing this and inform them of Church policy?  I have done so with friends of mine who aren't Catholic and were about to approach for Communion.  If they were not your friends, how do you know that they were not in a state to approach for Communion?  Of all the Catholics in Spain or elsewhere that are not your friends or acquaintances, how can you possibly know how often the go to the Sacrament of Confession?

While Spain is certainly considered a Catholic country, your "sample" may actually be smaller than you think:
Quote
Today, there are 90% of Spaniards are baptized as Roman Catholics, but fewer than 3/4ths of the population identify themselves as Roman Catholic. Of those who regard themselves as Catholic, 50% are non-practicing.
http://blogs.longwood.edu/spain2011/2011/06/02/the-not-so-catholic-spain/
Sad, isn't it?

Btw, Spain has a population of about 47 million, making the non-practicing number of Catholics, according to the above figures, roughly 16 million, out of a total world population of Catholics of about 1 billion (and yes, I do realize that that number probably includes people who are non-practicing).  How many people attended the approx. 260 Masses you happened to attend?  See what I'm getting at?

Are there people who approach the chalice in Catholic churches who shouldn't?  Yes.  Does anyone know how many do so and how often?  I seriously doubt it.  Does it happen more in some countries (like Spain) than others?  Quite likely.  Is it to be taken lightly?  Definitely not!  Is there a practical solution that can be implemented universally and with relative ease?  I don't know.  Does can anyone know how often any given population of Catholics goes to confession?  I seriously doubt that, too. 

So, yes, there's a problem.  The extent of it actually is, I would contend, almost impossible to know.

Good post. Lots to think about. Thanks.
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« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2013, 05:48:58 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic.

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
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« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2013, 08:14:48 PM »

I attended a Roman Catholic wedding that served the Eucharist, and beforehand the priest firmly but politely informed those present not to come up if they were not Catholic.

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).

I hypothesize that the combination of the written statement with the Mass being offered ad orientem (and partially in Latin) was enough to tip off those who might usually present for Communion unknowingly - Protestants who don't know there is a closed Communion, for example. Just a hypothesis.
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« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2013, 09:16:42 PM »

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
I don't honestly see how it's so offensive, but others do I guess. I remember my mother telling me about being offended that a Lutheran church wanted to baptize her before they would commune her. She never did.
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« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2013, 09:18:21 PM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.
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« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2013, 09:23:10 PM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.

As far as mainstream Latin Catholic Churches go, it would be considered conservative. It is definitely the exception amongst every other Catholic Church I've ever been to (except SSPX, ICRSS, and FSSP).
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« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2013, 11:08:35 AM »

I was pressed into service as an usher at Midnight Mass last month. The program included a well-written statement about the rules for receiving Communion. I estimate that only about 25% of those I was ushering presented to receive.  There was one person, I heard, who tried to walk away with the Eucharist and was stopped by a parishioner. The attempted communicant clearly was not Catholic and apparently appeared very confused (enough so people knew to stop him or her).
I take it your RC parish is more conservative? I've heard of lax parishes where this is more the norm, and they take the Eucharist to their seats to consume it.

As far as mainstream Latin Catholic Churches go, it would be considered conservative. It is definitely the exception amongst every other Catholic Church I've ever been to (except SSPX, ICRSS, and FSSP).

I certainly wouldn't consider the parish I go to (Latin Catholic, run by Marianists) particularly "conservative".  There are plenty of things that drive me nuts, but they don't descend to the level of liturgical abuse.  The pastor recently gave very clear, very specific instructions, both in the bulletin and at every Mass over a couple of weeks about who may approach for Communion and how it is to be received and consumed.  I applaud him for that!  (Hopefully he'll repeat that in a few weeks or months to "refresh" peoples' memories  Wink.)
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« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2013, 12:01:32 PM »

Many claim that a statement like that offends people, which I guess is why many priests are hesitant (or worse) to do it. But really, it all depends on how it is worded. I can recall a great many times hearing a priest make a statement like that in a completely inoffensive way (sometimes even as simple as "Those not receiving communion are invited to come forward for a blessing.").
I don't honestly see how it's so offensive, but others do I guess.

Oddly enough, I can't recall any time when a priest said in a such a way that would (IMO) make anyone uncomfortable. (I wonder if I could find one on youtube?)

As long as we're on the subject ...

This could just be an odd trait that only I have, but for me the discomfort goes in exactly the opposite way. That is, if I'm at a Catholic mass, I actually feel a little uncomfortable at communion time if I'm not receiving communion. I feel like people are saying to themselves "Huh? Why isn't he receiving communion?"
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« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2013, 01:12:41 PM »

Is there an online text that has a Latin-English version of the Tridentine mass?
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« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »

Is there an online text that has a Latin-English version of the Tridentine mass?

http://missale.heliohost.org/order.html
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