OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 12:40:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: My 8 year old asked me a good question about God.  (Read 2048 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,415


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« on: May 24, 2011, 11:13:29 PM »

He said "Dad if God loved the Catholic Church why did he destroy it in Joplin"?

I told him I'll think about it and tell him later.   I really don't know why God would destroy something like that.  I'm sure EO churches as well have been destroyed by them as well. 

How do we explain and come to understand why God would destroy his own consecrated churches that hold relics and the means of sacraments for so many?
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 11:43:33 PM »

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:43-45 (King James Version)

Tragedy besets the good and the bad in this life. This is why we must strive to be like Christ. For we don't know what tragedies may befall us, and when our soul may be asked of us. We must be ready to meet our maker at all times.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 05:50:27 PM »

Person:Father Ceausescu destroys the Churches.
Fr:Not him, the sins of the world.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 05:51:39 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2011, 09:18:19 AM »

O would add that this may be for the salvation of those negatively affected.  I recently watched Into Great Silence, and the interview with the blind monk at the Carthusian monastery really struck me, when he said that he thanks God for making him go blind, because he believes that God did so in order to help his soul's salvation.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 02:40:46 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 02:46:56 PM »

He said "Dad if God loved the Catholic Church why did he destroy it in Joplin"?

I told him I'll think about it and tell him later.   I really don't know why God would destroy something like that.  I'm sure EO churches as well have been destroyed by them as well. 

How do we explain and come to understand why God would destroy his own consecrated churches that hold relics and the means of sacraments for so many?

I would have said, "God didn't destroy anything in Joplin.  Nature did.  Nature disobeyed God and decided to destroy Joplin."
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 03:09:51 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,436


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 04:01:52 PM »

Ecclesiastes 8:14: "There is futility which is done on the earth, that is, there are righteous men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked. On the other hand, there are evil men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous. I say that this too is futility."
Logged

Silly Stars
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 04:19:48 PM »

If I could just get the first two of St. Anthony's sayings down before I die, I think I would have done as good as I can:

2. When Abba Anthony meditated upon the depth of the judgments of God, he asked, saying, Lord, how is it that some perish when short-lived, and some live to extreme old age? And why are some poor, and yet others rich? And why are the unrighteous rich, and yet the righteous are poor? And he heard a voice saying to him, Anthony, keep your attention on yourself, for these things are the judgments of God, and they will not benefit you to learn them.

http://www.groca.org/?p=617
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 04:20:00 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
David 2007
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 197



« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 10:18:49 PM »

These questions of Christian Suffering always remind me of Saint Peter "The Rock" being crucified upside down.

Even the Rock, could not escape a cruel fate.

Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 10:31:11 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

So do you believe God sent tornadoes to Joplin?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 10:42:57 PM »

So do you believe God sent tornadoes to Joplin?

Man sent tornadoes because of their sin. Not in a "targeted", but rather in a general sense. Sin affects all of creation and brings in death and chaos. As we attain union with God, we command the elements and life is restored. So in a very real sense our sins cause calamity. So we can speak of it as God's wrath against us, but only in a manner of speaking. In another sense we send it upon ourselves with our evil which distorts creation.

At least that's what I've been coming to. But I don't really know anything.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 10:53:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

He said "Dad if God loved the Catholic Church why did he destroy it in Joplin"?

I told him I'll think about it and tell him later.   I really don't know why God would destroy something like that.  I'm sure EO churches as well have been destroyed by them as well. 

How do we explain and come to understand why God would destroy his own consecrated churches that hold relics and the means of sacraments for so many?

I would have said, "God didn't destroy anything in Joplin.  Nature did.  Nature disobeyed God and decided to destroy Joplin."

Not necessarily theologically sound, even for an 8 year old's logic, because that would assert that either Nature can operate aside from God's Will or that God is powerless against Nature, neither of which is true.  God is in constant and complete control of every single detail, even those that have free will, though I wouldn't think that the forces of Nature have a free will or an intent like living beings do, the laws and rules of nature are reactive equations of circumstance.  God creates each moment and each circumstance, and God is just as free to stop anything in His creation.  Even an 8 year old would have the simple response to say, "How can Nature disobey God" and then the question is back where we started.

Here is my two cents.

Orthodox teaches us to react to God.  All of reality exists on God's terms, we have no choice in the matter.  Human selfishness and fear causes us to believe we are in charge of anything and everything, but this is just an egoist conflation.  God is on control.  Every single minute detail of EVERYTHING is created and sustained by God.  So the 8 year old child presents a fundamental question, "Why would God do something that hurts human beings?"

The simple answer is, "Who knows?"  Now I know this is not necessarily the most comforting or reassuring answer to give an 8 year old, however I am a firm believer in not lying to children, as they are superb lie detectors, and they NEVER ever forget each lie they uncover.  From the Catholic or Orthodox perspective, we as humans must learn to readjust our free will towards God through Sacramental worship.  It is because God is in charge, it is because every aspect of life and creation cooperates entirely on God's terms, that we learn to live in flow and rhythm with God in prayerful effort.  We can not know why God does what He does, however we can have a relationship with Him directly where we experience Him in our Hearts, and there we find a deeper consolation that words or ideas could not convey. God is a Spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in Spirit.  We need to explain this even to our children.  At these moments of tragedy, all we can do is turn to God in heartfelt prayer and contemplative meditation.

What I would tell my own nieces or nephews or students about this question is that we know that God loves and cares for us.  We know that God is beyond just what we see and experience here physically, but is a Spirit.  While those particular churches were destroyed, and those lives lost, we know in God they are saved, and we know that the Church continues on, and new buildings will surely be built in God's Grace.  So we can use this opportunity to teach our children that it is because life is necessarily unpredictable, that it is at times even dangerous or frightening, that we must learn to have faith in God and pray earnestly in our lives.  Children know how to pray and to worship, sometimes better and more instinctively then we adults because our experiences as adults actually instill far more fear than faith.  

Further, I think that because kids are not so caught up in the concept of free will, because they already live in a world where they know they are not in charge and can accept their many limitations, where they already have to constantly adapt to what outside circumstances outside of their control and still enjoy life enough to laugh and play, perhaps they can understand this better than us.  Kids live where they understand that essentially, life is out of your control, and much of is a matter of circumstance.  In regards to tragedies and "bad things happening to good people" we have no phrases or formulas that nicely explain this.  Instead, even for our children, we must turn to God in prayer to really feel His love and Grace to get through these difficult situations.  I would also note this, perhaps it is important to remind kids that God feels our pains too, and it is not easy for Him to see us experience pain or loss.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 11:03:40 PM »

I look at it from a perspective like people go and kill innocent people.  It's not that God is not in total control.  Those who fling the accusation of "deism" seem to miss an important point, that God let's things happens and we don't know why.  But we do know that God controls all things and we continue to live in God's purpose with a personal relationship.  This is far from deism.

How can nature disobey God?  Because nature has free will.  How can man disobey God?

But saying God is in control doesn't mean God sent a tornado and also sent a murderer to murder a whole family.  That would be deterministic, borderline Calvinism.

Now, albeit one can say, yes, a fallen world has these characteristics.  Then in allegorical language, indeed, Nature is quite "disobedient".  Just as the Bible records the "wrath" of God.

Now, I don't think I can explain all of that to an 8-year-old.  Maybe in their teens.  But my response was to use simplicity of language.  Later on, a child will appreciate the depth of the answer given, even if misunderstood at the time.  My sister at a young age for instance asked my grandfather, "where was heaven," to which he replied, "where the S*n is."
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:06:09 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 11:04:32 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

So do you believe God sent tornadoes to Joplin?

Well that does not follow from my comment about Deism. God acts in history. That is Judeo-Christianity. He ain't a watch maker.

But to answer your question, although it did not follow from my statement.

In a sense of course. Both hold. Ontological Will versus Providential.

You have God killing people almost all of humanity at times. Or the first born of an entire city. Or destroying entire cities. Or turning women into salt. The list goes on.

Ontological Will vs. Providential. Can't have pure foresight and create everything knowing all the causes and conditions and not be an author of it. A hard pill to swallow. But God is that loving.  

It is a living God that is the Christian God. Or you just cut out the parts that don't fit in with Plotinus. Or Patristic proof texting as I have seen it here. Favorite Church Father Quote > Scriptural Consensus.

Christ is the God of Abraham. Of Jacob. Of Moses.

Again, I'll go with St. Anthony's second saying. I get along better that way.



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 11:07:11 PM »

I look at it from a perspective like people goes and kills innocent people.  It's not that God is not in total control.  Those who fling the accusation of "deism" seem to miss an important point, that God let's things happens and we don't know why.  But we do know that God controls all things and we continue to live in God's purpose with a personal relationship.  This is far from deism.

How can nature disobey God?  Because nature has free will.  How can man disobey God?

But saying God is in control doesn't mean God sent a tornado and also sent a murderer to murder a whole family.  That would be deterministic, borderline Calvinism.

Now, albeit one can say, yes, a fallen world has these characteristics.  Then in allegorical language, indeed, Nature is quite "disobedient".  Just as the Bible records the "wrath" of God.

Based on this post, you didn't understand what you read above regarding my comment on Deism. Go back and re-read what I was responding to.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 11:07:52 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

So do you believe God sent tornadoes to Joplin?

Well that does not follow from my comment about Deism. God acts in history. That is Judeo-Christianity. He ain't a watch maker.

But to answer your question, although it did not follow from my statement.

In a sense of course. Both hold. Ontological Will versus Providential.

You have God killing people almost all of humanity at times. Or the first born of an entire city. Or destroying entire cities. Or turning women into salt. The list goes on.

Ontological Will vs. Providential. Can't have pure foresight and create everything knowing all the causes and conditions and not be an author of it. A hard pill to swallow. But God is that loving.  

It is a living God that is the Christian God. Or you just cut out the parts that don't fit in with Plotinus. Or Patristic proof texting as I have seen it here. Favorite Church Father Quote > Scriptural Consensus.

Christ is the God of Abraham. Of Jacob. Of Moses.

Again, I'll go with St. Anthony's second saying. I get along better that way.


That's fine.  No one disagrees with St. Anthony.  But even St. Anthony comes from a tradition where these stories have an allegorical understanding.  We're talking about today, not about punishment of evil people.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 11:09:01 PM »

I look at it from a perspective like people goes and kills innocent people.  It's not that God is not in total control.  Those who fling the accusation of "deism" seem to miss an important point, that God let's things happens and we don't know why.  But we do know that God controls all things and we continue to live in God's purpose with a personal relationship.  This is far from deism.

How can nature disobey God?  Because nature has free will.  How can man disobey God?

But saying God is in control doesn't mean God sent a tornado and also sent a murderer to murder a whole family.  That would be deterministic, borderline Calvinism.

Now, albeit one can say, yes, a fallen world has these characteristics.  Then in allegorical language, indeed, Nature is quite "disobedient".  Just as the Bible records the "wrath" of God.

Based on this post, you didn't understand what you read above regarding my comment on Deism. Go back and re-read what I was responding to.

And I find nothing wrong with it.  You just happen to either misunderstand it, or you're quite deterministic yourself.  Someone by the same breathe of misunderstanding can tell you to join Calvinism.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:09:22 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 11:13:08 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

So do you believe God sent tornadoes to Joplin?

Well that does not follow from my comment about Deism. God acts in history. That is Judeo-Christianity. He ain't a watch maker.

But to answer your question, although it did not follow from my statement.

In a sense of course. Both hold. Ontological Will versus Providential.

You have God killing people almost all of humanity at times. Or the first born of an entire city. Or destroying entire cities. Or turning women into salt. The list goes on.

Ontological Will vs. Providential. Can't have pure foresight and create everything knowing all the causes and conditions and not be an author of it. A hard pill to swallow. But God is that loving.  

It is a living God that is the Christian God. Or you just cut out the parts that don't fit in with Plotinus. Or Patristic proof texting as I have seen it here. Favorite Church Father Quote > Scriptural Consensus.

Christ is the God of Abraham. Of Jacob. Of Moses.

Again, I'll go with St. Anthony's second saying. I get along better that way.


That's fine.  No one disagrees with St. Anthony.  But even St. Anthony comes from a tradition where these stories have an allegorical understanding.  We're talking about today, not about punishment of evil people.

Allegory and typology do not exclude historical fact or the understanding of the relationship the Hebrews had with their God and He with them which allowed God to work through and with broken humanity to allow the single person to appear who could completely say yes to God and thus bear Him in her womb.

To think that historical relationship and revelation of God is somehow inferior to the legitimate insights into the Divine the pagans had is nutty.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 11:15:28 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

See the bold. God just didn't create things and set them in motion. That is Deism. God is capable of acting in history, has acted in history, and continues to act in history. That is not Deism.

Nothing I have state remotely speaks to Calvinism.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 11:20:10 PM »

IMO God created nature and set it into motion based on the rules He created. Much in the same way the stars do their thing, the animals do their thing, so does the weather, do its thing. Its not that he willed that the churches would be destroyed, it was a by-product of nature that he set into motion. It just happened.

primuspilus

Change your faith to Deism.

See the bold. God just didn't create things and set them in motion. That is Deism. God is capable of acting in history, has acted in history, and continues to act in history. That is not Deism.

Nothing I have state remotely speaks to Calvinism.

Deism at its core is pretty much a god with no moral power or relationship with humanity.  To set things in motion in physical terms is not the same as a person-less God.

And yet you're open to the possibility that God sends tornadoes to destroy churches.  You're no different than Pat Robertson.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:21:16 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 11:22:53 PM »

And yet you're open to the possibility that God sends tornadoes to destroy churches.  You're no different than Pat Robertson.

Not open to, but created exactly that.

The bolded part is rather hysterical and sorta (well I really don't get insulted).
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 11:25:18 PM »

And yet you're open to the possibility that God sends tornadoes to destroy churches.  You're no different than Pat Robertson.

Not open to, but created exactly that.

The bolded part is rather hysterical and sorta (well I really don't get insulted).

Well, now that you clearly believe it, then what I say is truth.  God who is love, directly sent a tornado to kill men, women, and children, according to you.

Now, I can with confidence say, you don't belong to the Orthodox Church, and your attack against an enquirer is just a heretic's opinion.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:26:44 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 11:29:52 PM »

And yet you're open to the possibility that God sends tornadoes to destroy churches.  You're no different than Pat Robertson.

Not open to, but created exactly that.

The bolded part is rather hysterical and sorta (well I really don't get insulted).

Well, now that you clearly believe it, then what I say is truth.  God who is love, directly sent a tornado to kill men, women, and children.

Now, I can with confidence say, you don't belong to the Orthodox Church, and your attack against an enquirer is just a heretic's opinion.

lulz. So God isn't the Creator of all? And being the Creator of all had perfect foresight before doing so? And knowing the Fall would happened and its fall out, created everything anyway out of love?

Or do you do you think God was shocked when Adam ate the apple or those tornados hit? You extrapolate, like you do often around here much from others write. So here you extrapolate "wished" it to happen ontologically.

Sorry, but this stuff does get complicated. And more than a few Orthodox folks find this acceptable. Ontological Will vs. Providential Will.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 11:41:08 PM »

Now, I can with confidence say, you don't belong to the Orthodox Church, and your attack against an enquirer is just a heretic's opinion.

You don't need your confidence. Look at my status. I ain't in the Church and never have been. And thus I can't be a heretic. Nor is what I am stating heretical or heterodox anyhow. Unless you worship at the feet of Christianity which holds (neo)Platonism over the Scripture.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 11:49:23 AM »

Wow, I love starting the day being insulted...anyways...
What I mean is that if you build a home in an area known for tornadoes, then when one comes, blame God? Foolishness.
Just like building a home right on the Mississippi River, then it floods, blame God? Ridiculous.

God set the river to flood, and the tornadoes to come, whether you built something there or not. These things have happened for hundreds, if not, thousands of years. You think that by building there God will simply stop it because of your building? REALLY?

You want to insult me? Fine. Im not an adherent of Deism just because I have a differing opinion that you. This happens to be a place of discussion and opinion, which means not just your opinion.


primuspilus

« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:57:55 AM by primuspilus » Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 01:00:09 PM »

Wow, I love starting the day being insulted...anyways...
What I mean is that if you build a home in an area known for tornadoes, then when one comes, blame God? Foolishness.
Just like building a home right on the Mississippi River, then it floods, blame God? Ridiculous.

God set the river to flood, and the tornadoes to come, whether you built something there or not. These things have happened for hundreds, if not, thousands of years. You think that by building there God will simply stop it because of your building? REALLY?

You want to insult me? Fine. Im not an adherent of Deism just because I have a differing opinion that you. This happens to be a place of discussion and opinion, which means not just your opinion.


primuspilus



I do not think that anybody is purposefully insulting anyone. The problem is the use of loaded words to illustrate the extent of disagreement. While that may be regrettable in some sections (say Convert Issues), I think we can look past the epitaphs in this section. That said, I agree with you, Minasoliman and Habte. The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 01:19:52 PM »

Indeed, I've had sufferings that really made a difference much later (I think of the death of my father at age Cool and really shaped who I am. Its just a very large thread in the tapestry in my life that I would not change. I miss him, i love him greatly, but I would not ask God to change it because it made me a better person than I think I would have been otherwise.

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 01:42:51 PM »

Wow, I love starting the day being insulted...anyways...
What I mean is that if you build a home in an area known for tornadoes, then when one comes, blame God? Foolishness.
Just like building a home right on the Mississippi River, then it floods, blame God? Ridiculous.

God set the river to flood, and the tornadoes to come, whether you built something there or not. These things have happened for hundreds, if not, thousands of years. You think that by building there God will simply stop it because of your building? REALLY?

You want to insult me? Fine. Im not an adherent of Deism just because I have a differing opinion that you. This happens to be a place of discussion and opinion, which means not just your opinion.


primuspilus



I do not think that anybody is purposefully insulting anyone. The problem is the use of loaded words to illustrate the extent of disagreement. While that may be regrettable in some sections (say Convert Issues), I think we can look past the epitaphs in this section. That said, I agree with you, Minasoliman and Habte. The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.

Thus you agree with me as well. Can't say that earthquakes and everything that is created doesn't in some sense come from its Creator who created all things out of love with perfect foresight of the pain, misery, etc. they would bring.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2011, 01:48:02 PM »

Wasn't the great earthquake in Constantinople interpreted by the Church to be divine wrath?
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,616



« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 01:48:41 PM »

The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.

Suffering is not "good" as such. It is a result of the fallen world. If it were completely "good" there would be no need for all of creation to be redeemed.

The fall affected all of creation. The vocation of Adam to spread Paradise was rejected by him, thus we live in a world that is not ontologically what God "wants" (to use such language). But providentially, He had no other choice. This world or none.

Again, was God surprised by Adam eating the apple? Was God surprised by the fall of his creation "Satan"? No.

And yet out of love He created all.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 02:27:46 PM »

The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.

Suffering is not "good" as such. It is a result of the fallen world. If it were completely "good" there would be no need for all of creation to be redeemed.

The fall affected all of creation. The vocation of Adam to spread Paradise was rejected by him, thus we live in a world that is not ontologically what God "wants" (to use such language). But providentially, He had no other choice. This world or none.

Again, was God surprised by Adam eating the apple? Was God surprised by the fall of his creation "Satan"? No.

And yet out of love He created all.

Well, I m not God and I do not know what was in His mind. What I do know is reflected in the prayers of the Anaphora; that He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son... I also know from Genesis that He proclaimed His creation to be very good. I do not need to analyze Him to know that everything that happens can be and should be used to get us closer to Him. That would include the good and the bad.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 513



« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2014, 05:05:14 AM »

people were sinners in that church , priests monks whatever.. there are places and churches considered accursed, and that became accursed places, like bottomless lakes and etc.. Smiley)
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 513



« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2014, 05:06:14 AM »

The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.

Suffering is not "good" as such. It is a result of the fallen world. If it were completely "good" there would be no need for all of creation to be redeemed.

The fall affected all of creation. The vocation of Adam to spread Paradise was rejected by him, thus we live in a world that is not ontologically what God "wants" (to use such language). But providentially, He had no other choice. This world or none.

Again, was God surprised by Adam eating the apple? Was God surprised by the fall of his creation "Satan"? No.

And yet out of love He created all.

Well, I m not God and I do not know what was in His mind. What I do know is reflected in the prayers of the Anaphora; that He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son... I also know from Genesis that He proclaimed His creation to be very good. I do not need to analyze Him to know that everything that happens can be and should be used to get us closer to Him. That would include the good and the bad.

Rather what u want to believe.
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 513



« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2014, 05:07:58 AM »

then there are cities where large catastrophes took places everything whipped out but statues of our Lady remained intact.
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
DeniseDenise
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,601


« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2014, 08:19:49 AM »

All the above wrangling aside.

Neither God nor a tornado destroyed the Catholic Church (or for that matter any of the several others of varying denominations) in Joplin.

A tornado destroyed their Buildings.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 08:20:49 AM by DeniseDenise » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,469



WWW
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2014, 09:34:29 AM »

The Lord is good, His creation is good, and our sufferings are good too.

Suffering is not "good" as such. It is a result of the fallen world. If it were completely "good" there would be no need for all of creation to be redeemed.

The fall affected all of creation. The vocation of Adam to spread Paradise was rejected by him, thus we live in a world that is not ontologically what God "wants" (to use such language). But providentially, He had no other choice. This world or none.

Again, was God surprised by Adam eating the apple? Was God surprised by the fall of his creation "Satan"? No.

And yet out of love He created all.

Well, I m not God and I do not know what was in His mind. What I do know is reflected in the prayers of the Anaphora; that He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son... I also know from Genesis that He proclaimed His creation to be very good. I do not need to analyze Him to know that everything that happens can be and should be used to get us closer to Him. That would include the good and the bad.

Rather what u want to believe.

As Orthodox Christians, this is something we ALL believe.

Yes, life can be tragic.  Seem unfair and unjust.  The rich have it easy, the poor suffer.  Joe across the street has a new car and goes on vacation, while I don't have a moment to sit down and watch a movie on my own couch.  Suzy got the latest iPhone and Mark just built a new house....while Larry is sitting in the dark, his furnace is broken, the electricity is off because he's not been able to pay it, etc.

Some families suffer with illness, others suffer monetarily, others merely suffer.....

These things are all part of life....of living in the fallen world.

Joe, with the new car, just returned from a Hawaiian vacation....however, he's not once prayed during the year. He's not thanked God for helping him acquire all his stuff and status.  He's not gone to church.  He's not partaken of any sacraments.  He's not confessed.

Joe dies while speeding down the road in fancy new car....and comes before God.  He is asked what positive difference he made in the world.....whom has he helped with the wealth God allowed him to accumulate....who has he taught about God and salvation......nobody. 

His life is then examined....and because he didn't avail himself of Confession/Communion, etc....his sins are plenty.....and he hangs his head in shame.

Larry, who has no heat due to broken furnace, and no money to fix the broken window....turns on a space heater to stay warm.  His house catches fire and burns down.  He dies, and comes before God.   He is asked what positive difference he made in the world..(just the other day he cut his elderly neighbor's lawn, he volunteered last Saturday to help clean the playground in the park, he gave a hug to his coworker who was crying because of a personal tragedy...)...whom has he helped with the wealth God allowed him to accumulate.(..he doesn't have much, but, he did stop and give the man with a sign, standing under the bridge $3, at lunch time he often shares the crumbs from his bread with the birds, and he skipped having steak at dinner so that he could use that money to buy his niece a birthday present)...who has he taught about God and salvation..(...his coworkers often see him cross himself at lunch and have asked him about it, and he's tried his best to explain about his Faith, he often volunteers to pray for people who are in distress, he always talks to his son about God, and made sure to get up each Sunday, no matter how tired he was, or how much pain his arthritis was causing him, to take his son to church and teach him about the Lord..and on the days he couldn't make it to church, usually because he couldn't fill his gas tank, or his legs hurt so much he was in tears...he made sure that Sunday morning they read the day's assigned Gospel, prayed and reserved the day for the Lord (no TV until after Noon).)... 

So, whom do you think was truly richer in life?

The man who seemingly had everything, and out of his luxury totally forgot about God....or the man who had it tough, and his stress, pain, fear, anguish made him turn from himself and rely more on God?

Who will the world remember when they are gone?

Definitely Larry....his coworkers will cry when they hear he died because he was always there to "listen" to their issues and offer honest advice, his son will miss him, the people at church will miss him, the man under the bridge and the birds will miss him.

The only person who will miss Joe is the auto-dealer...and that's only when Joe's lease would be up for renewal.

In other words....everyone's life is different.  Some are rich, smart, beautiful, others not so pretty, not so smart and not so rich.  Some are sick, in pain, others are super duper strong and healthy.

Our lives, like our fingerprints, are different....and we can either use what we've been given to make ourselves and those around us happy, or not.  Those who choose not to...who focus only on themselves...are usually unhappy...even though they seem happy.

Life, and everything we have, and do not have....are all for our own good and salvation.  Some of the people we would call the "poorest", are in fact the richest....with loving families, life filled with meaning, and are the most giving and loving people.

Try to make the most of what you have.  Always be thankful and happy....and remember that even though you think you are poor monetarily or otherwise....there are people who would be considered even "poorer".   ...and remember the "rich" are not as happy as you think they are...nor as "rich" where it counts.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 513



« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2014, 03:49:09 AM »

How could you believe that as long as your religion preaches an eternal hell?
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,434



WWW
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2014, 08:09:31 AM »

In face of utter suffering, hope. In despair, faith. In doubt, love.

The cross will happen to us all. To the innocent and to the guilty. To the great and to the small. Some particular forms of suffering can (and should) be avoided but that we will suffer somehow is innevitable.There is no answer to Job before Christ, only "you cannot comprehend, please trust Me". That is to say there is no answer to the problem of suffering and evil outside Christ.

In Christ though, the answer comes: the Cross becomes the Tree of Life, that is, our suffering has in itself the power of making us a better person, and not only in mind and heart, but completely new. Without Christ, all forms of suffering are just meaningless disgraces. In Christ, they are the medicine of immortality. The Devil seduced human beings to bring death and suffering to the world. Christ played ahead, and transformed the tool of our doom into the fruit of the tree of life.

Tragedies happen because they happen. Their cause is either the cruel indiference of nature or the perverted immorality of Men. Where God has acted is that He transformed the nature of suffering, from the crushing of our very existence into the renewal of our hearts and our rebirth into a new world.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.147 seconds with 66 queries.