how many pages of theology do you usually have to read before you get depressed?

[yeshuaisiam]

And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.

If St. Dismas could receive salvation on his cross - why can St. Constantine not in his deathbed, even if he did kill his wife and child? Why would Christ preach the parable of the prodigal son if he did not mean it and apply it himself?

Frankly, I don't see a problem if even Hitler turned out to be a prodigal son and in heaven right now. We do worship a God of love, forgiveness, and mercy - not a judgmental God of emotional human vengeance.

I agree with the 2nd part.


If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins.  If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness.   I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.


Look, Compare the lives
St. Seraphim of Sarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Seraphim_of_Sarov
Good life, not extremely wealthy, humble, had forgiveness, lived in a cave for some time, dedicated Christian... Wonderful story

Constantine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_great
Murderous life, hundreds of thousands died by his swords, extremely wealthy, executed his wife and son, had coins made in his image, had empires....

There are great examples.  St. Seraphim is a wonderful example of a saint.   He makes me feel kind of depressed when reading about him because I realize I would not react as he did to thieves in non resistance.... I'm humbled by this man.

[Nephi]

I agree with the 2nd part.


If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins.  If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness.   I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.


Look, Compare the lives
St. Seraphim of Sarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Seraphim_of_Sarov
Good life, not extremely wealthy, humble, had forgiveness, lived in a cave for some time, dedicated Christian... Wonderful story

Constantine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_great
Murderous life, hundreds of thousands died by his swords, extremely wealthy, executed his wife and son, had coins made in his image, had empires....

There are great examples.  St. Seraphim is a wonderful example of a saint.   He makes me feel kind of depressed when reading about him because I realize I would not react as he did to thieves in non resistance.... I'm humbled by this man.

So we should only glorify those that God has glorified - if they lived a life of virtue, but otherwise we shouldn't glorify them as the saints they are? Hmm...

[xariskai]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

[Nephi]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

[Michał Kalina]

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

St. Dismas was a murderer. You ignored that argument because he does not fit in your "gospel".

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies

Befeore conversion.

2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands

Before conversion.

3) Did not turn the cheek

Before conversion.

[tweety234]

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.

why don't you admit that you don't like him instead of arguing all the time?. I don't personally like him either. But if he repented even at the last moment of his life. He deserves that we forgive him. People deserve that we forgive the inexcusable in them. Just as God forgives the inexcusable in us. Note: I am not defending him or anything. I just grant him forgiveness. No matter what he did.

[yeshuaisiam]

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

St. Dismas was a murderer. You ignored that argument because he does not fit in your "gospel".

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies

Befeore conversion.

2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands

Before conversion.

3) Did not turn the cheek

Before conversion.

Don't agree.

Constantine held Nicea prior.
Eusebius wrote of his great faith in Nicea (and a lot of rump kissing as well)  

Constantine POST Nicea (where he was in the presence of many bishops) proceeded to murder his wife and son about a year later.  The man who held Nicea murdered hundreds of thousands of people years after Nicea.

What Constantine did for the church was the equivalent of a Tyrant.  He attacked, murdered, and plundered.  Basically got in bed with them.  Then they exalted him to sainthood.  Why?  Because he stopped hitting them.  (Edict of Milan).    Of course this edict also legalized every form of religion as well.

Can't compare him to almost every other saint.  

People even say he postponed baptism so he could live such a horrible live and be absolved from sin in the end...  

Anyway I just can't agree on Constantine.  So many other saints are great, and humble me.  This guy is just WOW.  

[yeshuaisiam]

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.

why don't you admit that you don't like him instead of arguing all the time?. I don't personally like him either. But if he repented even at the last moment of his life. He deserves that we forgive him. People deserve that we forgive the inexcusable in them. Just as God forgives the inexcusable in us. Note: I am not defending him or anything. I just grant him forgiveness. No matter what he did.

I don't like his actions, and I do forgive him.

It's the question of him being a Saint that drives me nuts.

However, in context of this thread, and along with what James said:  "If an Arian baptized tyrant did all this stuff..... and still was sainted....."    It makes all of us look like saints!

I feel like a much better Christian knowing Constantine made sainthood! 
But then I read of Tikhon and crawl back into my hole.

[yeshuaisiam]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

[biro]

Ignore you.

[Nephi]

Ignore you.

+2

[xariskai]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

[Ashman618]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

[JamesR]

What about St. Vladimir? Didn't he murder pagans and force his people to convert at the sword?

[JamesR]

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

[xariskai]

Baptized Arian...

Constantine himself opposed Arianism,[1] and the notion that he was baptized by an Arian is debatable.[2]
______
[1] Eg. "I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
[2] From www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/05/was-constantine-great-baptized-arian.html
   "Regarding Eusebius of Nicomedia's confession of faith prior to the baptism of Constantine and during the First Ecumenical Council of 325, John Karmiris writes: "All the Fathers of the Synod accepted unanimously the Holy Creed, including those who professed Arianism, other than the above two, after around the six day dogmatic deliberations, and they signed on the 19th of June in the year 325" (The Dogmatic and Symbolic Writings of the Orthodox Catholic Church, vol. 1; p. 118).
   This makes clear that the 318 Fathers who attended the Council unanimously professed Orthodoxy. As for the phrase "other than the above two", Professor Karmiris noted a few paragraphs earlier that Theonas and Secundus were the only ones who confessed Arian teachings and did not accept the Nicene Creed. Eusebius of Nicomedia, though he did struggle to defend Arian doctrines, in the end he did sign in favor of the Nicene Creed, but together with Theognis of Nicaea and Maris of Chalcedon refused to excommunicate Arius. For this refusal and disloyalty, Constantine had not only Arius, Theonas and Secundus exiled, but also Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nicaea and Maris of Chalcedon. Not long after however they were reinstated by the Church, according to the historian Sozomen, who writes:
   'Not long after, Eusebius, bishop of Nicomedia, and Theognis, bishop of Nicæa, regained possession of their churches after expelling Amphion and Chrestos who had been ordained in their stead. They owed their restoration to a document which they had presented to the bishops, containing a retraction: "Although we have been condemned without a trial by your piety, we deemed it right to remain silent concerning the judgment passed by your piety. But as it would be absurd to remain longer silent, when silence is regarded as a proof of the truth of the calumniators, we now declare to you that we too agree in this faith, and after a diligent examination of the thought in the word 'consubstantial,' we are wholly intent upon preserving peace, and that we never pursued any heresy. Having proposed for the safety of the churches such argument as occurred to us, and having been fully convinced, and fully convincing those who ought to have been persuaded by us, we undersigned the creed; but we did not subscribe to the anathema, not because we impugned the creed, but because we did not believe the accused to be what he was represented to us; the letters we had received from him, and the arguments he had delivered in our presence, fully satisfying us that he was not such an one. Would that the holy Synod were convinced that we are not bent on opposing, but are accordant with the points accurately defined by you, and by this document, we do attest our assent thereto: and this is not because we are wearied of exile, but because we wish to avert all suspicion of heresy; for if you will condescend to admit us now into your presence, you will find us in all points of the same sentiments as yourselves, and obedient to your decisions, and then it shall seem good to your piety to be merciful to him who was accused on these points and to have him recalled. If the party amenable to justice has been recalled and has defended himself from the charge made, it would be absurd, were we by our silence to confirm the reports that calumny had spread against us. We beseech you then, as befits your piety, dear to Christ, that you memorialize our emperor, most beloved of God, and that you hand over our petition, and that you counsel quickly, what is agreeable to you concerning us." It was by these means that Eusebius and Theognis, after their change of sentiment, were reinstated in their churches.' (Ecclesiastical History, Book 2, Chapter 16)
   This letter given to us through Sozomen is significant, because it states that Eusebius of Nicomedia accepted the Orthodox Faith and sought communion with the Catholic Church and renounced the heresy of Arius. It also reveals why Eusebius was sent into exile originally - because he refused to excommunicate Arius" (ibid).

[Shanghaiski]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

Totally amen.

[Shanghaiski]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

Many very holy people viewed themselves as the worst of sinners--basically all the saints, particularly even the ascetics who lived in holiness from birth. The closer one comes to God, the more one realizes his sins, their magnitude, the utter depths of his depravity, his great indebtedness to God. And he does not look at anyone else and say, "I'm not as bad as that guy," but rather sees him as better than himself. This is because he covers and makes excuses (out of genuine love and humility, not out of delusion or because he ignores sin) for others, but not for himself, for he knows he has no excuse for his evil deeds.

[Shanghaiski]

What about St. Vladimir? Didn't he murder pagans and force his people to convert at the sword?

Idk about murdering pagans. There were several Christian martyrs killed under his rule befoe his conversion.

[Shanghaiski]

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable. After all, there were Christians suffering for their faith in the gulags until after Stalin's death. (See Fr. Arseny)

[Michał Kalina]

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable.

This is not. He made a break to raise morale and win the war.

[tweety234]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven

[tweety234]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

\
not really. We can;;t.

[Shanghaiski]

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable.

This is not. He made a break to raise morale and win the war.

And yet he did not release those in prison for their faith.

[Shanghaiski]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven

I think the greatest saints would argue with you on this.

[tweety234]

At the end of the day. Why don't we let God decide who is and who isn't a saint. Rather than our own wishes?

[tweety234]

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius

Great passage, thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven

I think the greatest saints would argue with you on this.

on which part of this comment?

[Schultz]

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net.

[tweety234]

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net.

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?

[Schultz]

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net.

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?

See the ?

It's a joke, son, a joke!

[yeshuaisiam]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

[yeshuaisiam]

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net.

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?

See the ?

It's a joke, son, a joke!

I have fun here usually.   I really like the guy who posts "Is Outrage!!!!!"   

Of course, we all understand, with religion, politics, and debate ==== All sensitive issues.   I hang out in the Religious Topics area too much and argue a lot.   In other sections I see most get along.

[Schultz]

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26

[tweety234]

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26

Ok. I am not going to challenge the Gospel. But why exactly is he specifically a murderer? He says he doesn't kill people, and I bet he doesn't encourage others to do it either. He seems to be no more and no less sinful than anyone else. And taking a life to me is one of the worst sins one can commit, and he doesn't.

[biro]

Obviously, tweety, you didn't even read the verses Schultz mentioned. Here they are. Pay special attention to verse 22.


Mt. 5:21-26

21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee;

24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.



Also, here is 1 John 3:15, which explains why he is "like a murderer."

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself.

[Ashman618]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

[tweety234]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

[biro]

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

Lord have mercy. 

[Ashman618]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born

[Asteriktos]

God forgives. But I applaud your forthrightness. Perhaps others will read that and think about it.

[tweety234]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born

Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

[Ashman618]

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born

Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.

[JamesR]

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

[Asteriktos]

Don't worry, be happy!

[Michał Kalina]

he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

Do you mean baptism?

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Free-For-All > Religious Topics (Moderator: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)) > Topic: how many pages of theology do you usually have to read before you get depressed?