Author Topic: how many pages of theology do you usually have to read before you get depressed?  (Read 5851 times)

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Offline tweety234

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I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.

I understand this... But Christ taught us otherwise.   He taught us to love our enemies.  He taught us to pray for those who persecute us.   He taught us to turn the cheek.  He taught us to forgive.

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

I really don't have a beef with many saints in the EO faith.  Most I read about are wonderful and good people.   But this guy... wow.

one of the reasons I don't like my name is him. May God have mercy on him and the rest of us.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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For consideration regarding both St. Constantine and also our own sins...

Quote
But you have to live in the midst of public affairs, and are stained by them; and it would be a terrible thing to waste this mercy. The answer is simple. Flee, if you can, even from the forum, along with the good company, making yourself the wings of an eagle, or, to speak more suitably, of a dove...for what have you to do with Cæsar or the things of Cæsar?...until you can rest where there is no sin, and no blackening, and no biting snake in the way to hinder your godly steps. Snatch your soul away from the world; flee from Sodom; flee from the burning; travel on without turning back, lest you should be fixed as a pillar of salt. Genesis 19:26 Escape to the Mountain lest you be destroyed with the plain. But if you are already bound and constrained by the chain of necessity, reason thus with yourself; or rather let me reason thus with you.

It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said:— Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, (Luke 18:14) though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself.

-- St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40.19

Offline xariskai

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Offline Shanghaiski

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So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

How the heck did we get here? Oh, that's right. It's Tuesday.
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Offline biro

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So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

How the heck did we get here? Oh, that's right. It's Tuesday.

Is it a full moon too?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.  I doubt James would want Constantine's sword interceding on a masturbation problem.   :'(

If it's in a book, it MUST be true, and completely free of any kind of weird personal agenda. As we know from this forum, weird vendettas against historical figures are completely unheard of.
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Offline biro

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It's worth noting that the Edict of Milan doubtless saved many Christian lives.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Yesh, with all respect, do you understand what repentance is? Do you understand what sacramental Confession is?

A lot of this rests on whether you accept the validity of the Church and the power of the priests to administer Holy Confession. I wasn't 'in the room' when St. Constantine and his priest prayed to God and asked for forgiveness. The Church accepts that this happened, however.

Even if St. Constantine did awful things, he could be forgiven, after he repented and confessed. That's what the Gospel tells us anyone could do to be forgiven. I accept that.

Amen.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline JamesR

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So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Shanghaiski

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If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

how should i do it?

Why are you getting depressed? That is an issue to look at first.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

This is something to discuss privately in confession with your priest.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline biro

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So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

 ::)

Not even going to bother.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

It doesn't work that way. They are separate issues, and because someone did something bad and was forgiven, that doesn't mean that you should therefore be given license to do whatever you want and then repent afterwards. This is the worst type of abuse of God's forgiveness, and the sacrament of confession. It's not that hard to keep it in your pants. I was that age. Hey, I'm not an old man at 33. But if it's something you have to confess then you have to try to avoid it. If you fall there is forgiveness, but that opportunity is not to be abused.

And now I sound like I'm lecturing, lol.  :angel:

Offline JamesR

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:13:58 PM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Yeah I know what you mean  :angel:  One way to think about it is that the guidelines are like fences which keep us from going over cliffs. They seem to make us less free when we want to know what's on the other side, but if we try to smash through them we're in for a bad surprise.

Offline tweety234

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.

You are a human and so am I, and we need our meat. Nationality has nothing to do with it. Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean. And we all have plenty of that. Those who don't want to admit it, are included.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:28:49 PM by tweety234 »
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Offline Anastasia1

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If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.

Basically.
Wha??? Explain please.
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)

Offline Anastasia1

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
You can always develop a medical reason. If you have IBS for example, it may take a while to learn how to eat when you have up to 50% of vegetarian food possibly working against you. My EO friend at work eats meat because his parents don't allow him to fast from meat, and his priest told him to respect his parents and fast when he moves out.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
I have been there. (Not with St. Chrystostom though.) It helps to find something to remember God's grace as well. Theosis is a process. Be patient and persevere, and God's grace will help you overcome your weakness.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:37:14 PM by Anastasia1 »
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)

Offline tweety234

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
You can always develop a medical reason. If you have IBS for example, it may take a while to learn how to eat when you have up to 50% of vegetarian food possibly working against you. My EO friend at work eats meat because his parents don't allow him to fast from meat, and his priest told him to respect his parents and fast when he moves out.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
I have been there. (Not with St. Chrystostom though.) It helps to find something to remember God's grace as well. Theosis is a process. Be patient and persevere, and God's grace will help you overcome your weakness.


I have no idea if I can achieve this wonderful theosis. These many rules that I can't prove they are from God's own mouth, drive me crazy. I feel Jealous of the pagans. At least they are happy. I am miserable.
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Offline mike

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

Offline Jetavan

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.
I thought he was baptized on his deathbed, so that he would not have much time in which to sin before he died.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Online Cyrillic

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:20:01 AM by Cyrillic »
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Online Cyrillic

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean.

Well, technically, something does come out...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:26:20 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline orthonorm

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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Flee, if you can, even from the forum

Oh how many here I wish would follow this advice.

Also, the entire quote is sorta weak sauce apologetics for the Emperor.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

This is something to discuss privately in confession with your priest.

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.   

With that said, (again not judging you), masturbation I do consider a sin.  This is why I support early marriages, that was common with the Early Christians.   Also, you are faced with horrible temptation today like it was not yesteryear.  A theologian in the 1300 A.D., did not see women their age in skimpy clothing, make-up, and "flaunting".   They did not have designer clothes cut to "flaunt" features.   I just don't know how to express it enough that I feel bad and wish that society accepted early marriages today like they did. 

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people. 
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum. 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:14:07 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline biro

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Huh? Baptism is not conversion?

Again, you do not seem to understand what remorse, repentance and Confession are.

Yes, even the worst of sinners can be forgiven. Yes, this can even happen on his deathbed.

Whether he should have been forgiven has nothing to do with the date of any Council. Jesus forgave the repentant thief on the cross, just prior to death.
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Online Cyrillic

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:25:40 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Jetavan

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Didn't he have his wife executed for falsely claiming rape?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Flee, if you can, even from the forum

Oh how many here I wish would follow this advice.

Also, the entire quote is sorta weak sauce apologetics for the Emperor.


Not apologetics so much as filling out the picture, IMO...  :angel:

Offline Fabio Leite

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About St. Constatine, I recommend this book:

Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom
Peter J. Leithart

It's not Orthodox but it tries to break the stereotype created by Constantine critics. One reviewer put it this way:

Quote
"Constantine," as Leithart reminds us, "has been a whipping boy for a long time, and still is today." His name is identified with tyranny, anti-Semitism, hypocrisy, apostasy, and heresy. While experts in the field of early Christianity now believe that Constantine was a genuine Christian who earnestly tried to apply his faith to his role as Emperor, many other scholars and laymen incorrectly continue to claim otherwise.
There is no such a thing as holly bullies. Not for "holy imperialism", not for the sake of unionist ecumenism.

Offline mike

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Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.


Offline Antonis

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Quote
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean.
That is not what it's about.

Mark 9:29 "But this kind [of demon] can be cast out in no other way except by prayer and fasting."

Matt 6:16  "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

Matt 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness...And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights..." 

Matt 9:14  "Then the disciples of John came to Him, asking, 'Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?' And Jesus said to them, 'The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."
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Offline Nephi

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Offline mike

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

Offline tweety234

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I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean.

Well, technically, something does come out...


absolutely. But he wasn't refering to peeing. This is natural, it was made that way, and like it or not, it will come. So he wasn't refering to that. What he meant however was the behaviours, the words, the thoughts are the source of these behaviours and words, whatever these are.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Shanghaiski

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

St. Constantine would have let yeshuaisiam live. Other emperors, perhaps not.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

And how's sitting in judgment on the Church and her saints working out for you?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

And how's sitting in judgment on the Church and her saints working out for you?

Interesting question.

So far so good.  Once I stopped fearing the men on top, succumbing to hypocrisy (ecumenism), it opened up my eyes a lot.

It allowed me to see that some things in Orthodoxy were not original at all.  It allowed me to see that things "imported" into Orthodox were often adapted out of paganism.  (Halos for example).   When I no longer feared excommunication, no longer saw that the EO faith determined where I went for salvation, it allowed me to delve deeper into what THEY would have me believe, and find some beautiful things.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.   

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people. 
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum. 

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Nephi

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And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.
If St. Dismas could receive salvation on his cross - why can St. Constantine not in his deathbed, even if he did kill his wife and child? Why would Christ preach the parable of the prodigal son if he did not mean it and apply it himself?

Frankly, I don't see a problem if even Hitler turned out to be a prodigal son and in heaven right now. We do worship a God of love, forgiveness, and mercy - not a judgmental God of emotional human vengeance.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 12:53:35 AM by Nephi »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 01:01:02 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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