Author Topic: how many pages of theology do you usually have to read before you get depressed?  (Read 6056 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tweety234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 628
For me it takes less than 10. If the subject is a non-dogmatic though, that is another story.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,606
My attention span has decreased with age. I rarely read more than 4 pages before I put a book down anymore. Doesn't make me depressed, I just lose focus after that and find that I start to zone out.

Why does it make you depressed?
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
I don't get more depressed from reading theology.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 06:25:07 AM by Cyrillic »
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,382
  • Now with bigger boots!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Dude. The news make me depressed. A lot of literature makes me depressed (Ah, Jodi Picoult, the natural heir of Virginia Woolf *gags*). Theology makes me think. Granted, it can make my brain hurt, but depressed? Naw.

PS: Unless it's Great Awakening stuff. I had to plod through 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' in university, and even my much younger and resilient self wanted to jump off a high place afterwards. ::)
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,081
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Quite a few. I was reading Uspienski's "Theology of icon" recently and I read on the last page of the book "the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 07:43:05 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Dominika

  • Serbian/Polish
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,156
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
Quite a few. I was reading Uspienski's "Theology of icon" recently and I read on the last page of the book "the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

I have the same edition of the book (btw, given by priest 2 weeks before my chrismation) and primary when my friend had said she had had the full version, I hadn't believed my version wasn't complete. But when I reach this asterisk and this sentence, I was so disappointed. And still after one year don't know the rest
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 08:32:34 AM by Cyrillic »
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,081
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?

They didn't have the money to pay the translator?

No idea.

Offline Dominika

  • Serbian/Polish
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,156
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?

They didn't have the money to pay the translator?

No idea.

There is written "because the XIth chapter makes an entirety with Byzantium"  ::) But it's an old edition, from 1993 year, maybe they wanted to create 2 volumes of it (=more money)?...
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,203
SotM!
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,203
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,885
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
For me, I can get through about four pages before I realize the saint or whomever in the book is way more holy than I am. Then my head starts to hurt.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,391
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.

Basically.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,547
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
724 1/2

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,606
No one gets bored at about tree fiddy?  I will say that some books are more prone to make me doubt than others (and not the ones you'd most likely think)  :angel:
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline tweety234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 628
St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline tweety234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 628
No one gets bored at about tree fiddy?  I will say that some books are more prone to make me doubt than others (and not the ones you'd most likely think)  :angel:

that too.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,391
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Five pages or so if it's really abstract.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,391
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Also depends on your translation. Some of my Patristic books are really old translations that use like 19th century English and thus take me a much longer time to read due to the confusing writing and I get depressed because of that.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
For me it takes less than 10. If the subject is a non-dogmatic though, that is another story.

Depends on what I'm reading!  :)
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,762
Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.

Didn't he give up his wealth and spend some time as a hermit?

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,762
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

I'll second this.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
For me, I can get through about four pages before I realize the saint or whomever in the book is way more holy than I am. Then my head starts to hurt.

It's like this for me too.  For instance, St. Tikhon of Zadonsk.  I realize how much he dedicated his life to God, and it makes me feel shallow in ways.... Of course then you can pick up a book about Constantine.  After reading about the tens of thousands of people he ordered murdered in warfare, the execution of his own wife and son... Then suddenly I feel a bit better.

That said, it all depends on the read.   Some saints really make an excellent example for us.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,391
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:21:16 PM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,606
Constantine was an emperor. What remorseless emperor commands you? He wasn't an Arian, semi-arian at most, and possibly not even that. Besides, he lived his entire life without that tricky issue coming into play. I don't know if he murdered anyone, he was ruthless perhaps, but then all emperors had to be. It was a ruthless time. I don't say all he did was fine, but there is a place for repentance. There are different degrees of sins, but you can't measure yours against someone elses on a balance, it doesn't work that way. You need to avoid sinning whatever your place. God decides how to take extenuating circumstances or context into account. In the case of Constantine He has revealed to the Church that he was a saint. It is enough.
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

It makes paradoxes of all sorts.   That's why I don't view Constantine as a saint.   Masturbation I would consider a sin and self serving, but it is not my place to say if you would go to hell or not.

Point being, James, I am VERY glad you are not killing tens of thousands of people, or plan on executing your future wife and son.     EDIT **** BY the way, I am not judging you for this at all.  It's just my opinion.  Though I don't suffer from this sin, I DO suffer from many others.   Quick to anger for example.

When I read theology, there are some wonderful saints.  True role models of how we can increase our worship and faith in God.  Some are such examples, that it honestly makes me depressed that I am not doing a better job.   Reading about Constantine though... Wow.  Look, I know we are all supposed to be humble and all, and focus on our own sin.... but... seriously...  The kid @ Sandy Hook killed way less people than this Orthodox Saint.  (executed post Nicea)   He executed his own wife by having her suffocated in an extremely hot bath... His son in a prison.  This was in 326.  (forgive us our trespasses)

332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

So anyway, yes, there are some theological saints I read about and feel like a monster... Then I read about Constantine, and feel a bit better.  

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:40:04 PM by yeshuaisiam »
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

More people would have died if St. Constantine the Great hadn't stopped the Goths.
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.  I doubt James would want Constantine's sword interceding on a masturbation problem.   :'(
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

More people would have died if St. Constantine the Great hadn't stopped the Goths.

Nope, it was a campaign against them for imperialism.  He gained lands that way.

Purely about $$$ and land.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,680
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.

That book's Jewish propaganda. Source.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:38:22 PM by Cyrillic »
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

No, if you don't get depressed you're doing it wrong or you are reading bad theology.

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,885
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:41:33 PM by biro »
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.

That book's Jewish propaganda. Source.

Constantine is well documented for these events.  Even wikipedia has information on this.  Nobody denies the execution of his wife and son.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,391
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Moses ordered genocides but none of you have a problem with that
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.

I understand this... But Christ taught us otherwise.   He taught us to love our enemies.  He taught us to pray for those who persecute us.   He taught us to turn the cheek.  He taught us to forgive.

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

I really don't have a beef with many saints in the EO faith.  Most I read about are wonderful and good people.   But this guy... wow.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Moses ordered genocides but none of you have a problem with that

Moses's genocides were "a bit" different than what Constantine did.   In the Torah, God is actually commanding him to do this in the book of Numbers.   31:1 for example.

Also, the Old Testament law was fulfilled by God when he taught of loving our enemies, forgiving, turning the cheek, etc.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,885
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Yesh, with all respect, do you understand what repentance is? Do you understand what sacramental Confession is?

A lot of this rests on whether you accept the validity of the Church and the power of the priests to administer Holy Confession. I wasn't 'in the room' when St. Constantine and his priest prayed to God and asked for forgiveness. The Church accepts that this happened, however.

Even if St. Constantine did awful things, he could be forgiven, after he repented and confessed. That's what the Gospel tells us anyone could do to be forgiven. I accept that.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:52:13 PM by biro »
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline tweety234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 628
If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

how should i do it?
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline tweety234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 628
St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.


absolutely.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi