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Author Topic: how many pages of theology do you usually have to read before you get depressed?  (Read 4741 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 30, 2012, 11:50:26 PM »

For me it takes less than 10. If the subject is a non-dogmatic though, that is another story.
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 11:56:12 PM »

My attention span has decreased with age. I rarely read more than 4 pages before I put a book down anymore. Doesn't make me depressed, I just lose focus after that and find that I start to zone out.

Why does it make you depressed?
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 06:16:30 AM »

I don't get more depressed from reading theology.
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 07:15:22 AM »

Dude. The news make me depressed. A lot of literature makes me depressed (Ah, Jodi Picoult, the natural heir of Virginia Woolf *gags*). Theology makes me think. Granted, it can make my brain hurt, but depressed? Naw.

PS: Unless it's Great Awakening stuff. I had to plod through 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' in university, and even my much younger and resilient self wanted to jump off a high place afterwards. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 07:38:41 AM »

Quite a few. I was reading Uspienski's "Theology of icon" recently and I read on the last page of the book "the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 08:14:04 AM »

Quite a few. I was reading Uspienski's "Theology of icon" recently and I read on the last page of the book "the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

I have the same edition of the book (btw, given by priest 2 weeks before my chrismation) and primary when my friend had said she had had the full version, I hadn't believed my version wasn't complete. But when I reach this asterisk and this sentence, I was so disappointed. And still after one year don't know the rest
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 08:32:25 AM »

"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 08:41:27 AM »

"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?

They didn't have the money to pay the translator?

No idea.
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 08:48:22 AM »

"the publishing house decided to stop on the XIth chapter".

Why?

They didn't have the money to pay the translator?

No idea.

There is written "because the XIth chapter makes an entirety with Byzantium"  Roll Eyes But it's an old edition, from 1993 year, maybe they wanted to create 2 volumes of it (=more money)?...
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 02:03:14 PM »

SotM!
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 02:05:12 PM »

SotM!

 Huh
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 02:10:33 PM »


Subject of the Month.
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 02:14:28 PM »

For me, I can get through about four pages before I realize the saint or whomever in the book is way more holy than I am. Then my head starts to hurt.
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 05:32:49 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 08:04:24 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 08:24:13 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2012, 08:52:44 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.

Basically.
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2012, 09:21:44 PM »

724 1/2
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2012, 09:34:57 PM »

No one gets bored at about tree fiddy?  I will say that some books are more prone to make me doubt than others (and not the ones you'd most likely think)  angel
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2012, 09:53:33 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 09:55:17 PM »

No one gets bored at about tree fiddy?  I will say that some books are more prone to make me doubt than others (and not the ones you'd most likely think)  angel

that too.
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2012, 11:24:29 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2012, 11:27:01 PM »

Five pages or so if it's really abstract.
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2012, 11:35:30 PM »

Also depends on your translation. Some of my Patristic books are really old translations that use like 19th century English and thus take me a much longer time to read due to the confusing writing and I get depressed because of that.
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2012, 11:38:54 PM »

For me it takes less than 10. If the subject is a non-dogmatic though, that is another story.

Depends on what I'm reading!  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2013, 12:14:51 AM »

Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.

Didn't he give up his wealth and spend some time as a hermit?
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2013, 12:16:00 AM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

I'll second this.
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2013, 06:11:06 PM »

For me, I can get through about four pages before I realize the saint or whomever in the book is way more holy than I am. Then my head starts to hurt.

It's like this for me too.  For instance, St. Tikhon of Zadonsk.  I realize how much he dedicated his life to God, and it makes me feel shallow in ways.... Of course then you can pick up a book about Constantine.  After reading about the tens of thousands of people he ordered murdered in warfare, the execution of his own wife and son... Then suddenly I feel a bit better.

That said, it all depends on the read.   Some saints really make an excellent example for us.
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2013, 06:20:48 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2013, 06:30:33 PM »

Constantine was an emperor. What remorseless emperor commands you? He wasn't an Arian, semi-arian at most, and possibly not even that. Besides, he lived his entire life without that tricky issue coming into play. I don't know if he murdered anyone, he was ruthless perhaps, but then all emperors had to be. It was a ruthless time. I don't say all he did was fine, but there is a place for repentance. There are different degrees of sins, but you can't measure yours against someone elses on a balance, it doesn't work that way. You need to avoid sinning whatever your place. God decides how to take extenuating circumstances or context into account. In the case of Constantine He has revealed to the Church that he was a saint. It is enough.
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2013, 06:31:06 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2013, 06:33:17 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

It makes paradoxes of all sorts.   That's why I don't view Constantine as a saint.   Masturbation I would consider a sin and self serving, but it is not my place to say if you would go to hell or not.

Point being, James, I am VERY glad you are not killing tens of thousands of people, or plan on executing your future wife and son.     EDIT **** BY the way, I am not judging you for this at all.  It's just my opinion.  Though I don't suffer from this sin, I DO suffer from many others.   Quick to anger for example.

When I read theology, there are some wonderful saints.  True role models of how we can increase our worship and faith in God.  Some are such examples, that it honestly makes me depressed that I am not doing a better job.   Reading about Constantine though... Wow.  Look, I know we are all supposed to be humble and all, and focus on our own sin.... but... seriously...  The kid @ Sandy Hook killed way less people than this Orthodox Saint.  (executed post Nicea)   He executed his own wife by having her suffocated in an extremely hot bath... His son in a prison.  This was in 326.  (forgive us our trespasses)

332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

So anyway, yes, there are some theological saints I read about and feel like a monster... Then I read about Constantine, and feel a bit better.  

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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2013, 06:35:11 PM »

332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

More people would have died if St. Constantine the Great hadn't stopped the Goths.
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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2013, 06:35:47 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.  I doubt James would want Constantine's sword interceding on a masturbation problem.   Cry
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« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »

332 and 334, he led armies to attack the Goths leading to over 100 thousand Goth deaths!

More people would have died if St. Constantine the Great hadn't stopped the Goths.

Nope, it was a campaign against them for imperialism.  He gained lands that way.

Purely about $$$ and land.
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« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2013, 06:37:42 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.

That book's Jewish propaganda. Source.
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« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2013, 06:40:09 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

No, if you don't get depressed you're doing it wrong or you are reading bad theology.
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2013, 06:40:38 PM »

I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.
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« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2013, 06:42:35 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.

That book's Jewish propaganda. Source.

Constantine is well documented for these events.  Even wikipedia has information on this.  Nobody denies the execution of his wife and son.
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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2013, 06:45:08 PM »

Moses ordered genocides but none of you have a problem with that
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« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2013, 06:45:42 PM »

I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.

I understand this... But Christ taught us otherwise.   He taught us to love our enemies.  He taught us to pray for those who persecute us.   He taught us to turn the cheek.  He taught us to forgive.

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

I really don't have a beef with many saints in the EO faith.  Most I read about are wonderful and good people.   But this guy... wow.
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2013, 06:50:32 PM »

Moses ordered genocides but none of you have a problem with that

Moses's genocides were "a bit" different than what Constantine did.   In the Torah, God is actually commanding him to do this in the book of Numbers.   31:1 for example.

Also, the Old Testament law was fulfilled by God when he taught of loving our enemies, forgiving, turning the cheek, etc.
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« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2013, 06:51:00 PM »

Yesh, with all respect, do you understand what repentance is? Do you understand what sacramental Confession is?

A lot of this rests on whether you accept the validity of the Church and the power of the priests to administer Holy Confession. I wasn't 'in the room' when St. Constantine and his priest prayed to God and asked for forgiveness. The Church accepts that this happened, however.

Even if St. Constantine did awful things, he could be forgiven, after he repented and confessed. That's what the Gospel tells us anyone could do to be forgiven. I accept that.
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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2013, 07:15:02 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

how should i do it?
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« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2013, 07:16:25 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Plus--no disrespect to him--he did grow up in a somewhat well-off household and received a good education. He never suffered any poverty. Yet, he made it sound as if it was so easy for the poor to be like Lazarus and patiently endure their poverty...easy for him to say.


absolutely.
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« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2013, 07:25:48 PM »

I think Cyrillic is right. No one likes war, but it is sometimes a necessary evil. St. Constantine probably couldn't avoid this, as he was a political leader. A saint is not someone who never made a mistake; rather, it's someone who repented and gave their lives to God at some point prior to death. Any sin can be forgiven, upon genuine repentance. If St. Constantine had that, and I believe the Church posits that he did, he could be forgiven that sin and any other. God searches the heart.

I understand this... But Christ taught us otherwise.   He taught us to love our enemies.  He taught us to pray for those who persecute us.   He taught us to turn the cheek.  He taught us to forgive.

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

I really don't have a beef with many saints in the EO faith.  Most I read about are wonderful and good people.   But this guy... wow.

one of the reasons I don't like my name is him. May God have mercy on him and the rest of us.
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« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2013, 07:31:01 PM »

For consideration regarding both St. Constantine and also our own sins...

Quote
But you have to live in the midst of public affairs, and are stained by them; and it would be a terrible thing to waste this mercy. The answer is simple. Flee, if you can, even from the forum, along with the good company, making yourself the wings of an eagle, or, to speak more suitably, of a dove...for what have you to do with Cæsar or the things of Cæsar?...until you can rest where there is no sin, and no blackening, and no biting snake in the way to hinder your godly steps. Snatch your soul away from the world; flee from Sodom; flee from the burning; travel on without turning back, lest you should be fixed as a pillar of salt. Genesis 19:26 Escape to the Mountain lest you be destroyed with the plain. But if you are already bound and constrained by the chain of necessity, reason thus with yourself; or rather let me reason thus with you.

It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said:— Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, (Luke 18:14) though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself.

-- St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40.19
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« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2013, 08:14:04 PM »

10^Googol    
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« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2013, 09:57:00 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

How the heck did we get here? Oh, that's right. It's Tuesday.
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« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2013, 09:58:50 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

How the heck did we get here? Oh, that's right. It's Tuesday.

Is it a full moon too?
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« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2013, 10:00:21 PM »

So wait a minute, you mean that Constantine can murder thousands of people--family included--and be an Arian, yet, the Church can Canonize him a Saint, but if I don't give up masturbation I'll go to Orthodox Hell? You gotta be kidding me.

St. Constantine, interceed for JamesR that he may not masturbate so much.

Better now?

There is a book called "Constantine's Sword" talking about how ruthless he was.  I doubt James would want Constantine's sword interceding on a masturbation problem.   Cry

If it's in a book, it MUST be true, and completely free of any kind of weird personal agenda. As we know from this forum, weird vendettas against historical figures are completely unheard of.
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« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 10:01:53 PM »

It's worth noting that the Edict of Milan doubtless saved many Christian lives.
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« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2013, 10:03:49 PM »

Yesh, with all respect, do you understand what repentance is? Do you understand what sacramental Confession is?

A lot of this rests on whether you accept the validity of the Church and the power of the priests to administer Holy Confession. I wasn't 'in the room' when St. Constantine and his priest prayed to God and asked for forgiveness. The Church accepts that this happened, however.

Even if St. Constantine did awful things, he could be forgiven, after he repented and confessed. That's what the Gospel tells us anyone could do to be forgiven. I accept that.

Amen.
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« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2013, 10:04:12 PM »

So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?
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« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2013, 10:05:20 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.

how should i do it?

Why are you getting depressed? That is an issue to look at first.
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« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2013, 10:06:29 PM »

So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

This is something to discuss privately in confession with your priest.
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« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2013, 10:07:45 PM »

So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

 Roll Eyes

Not even going to bother.
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« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2013, 10:09:11 PM »

So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

It doesn't work that way. They are separate issues, and because someone did something bad and was forgiven, that doesn't mean that you should therefore be given license to do whatever you want and then repent afterwards. This is the worst type of abuse of God's forgiveness, and the sacrament of confession. It's not that hard to keep it in your pants. I was that age. Hey, I'm not an old man at 33. But if it's something you have to confess then you have to try to avoid it. If you fall there is forgiveness, but that opportunity is not to be abused.

And now I sound like I'm lecturing, lol.  angel
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« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2013, 10:12:49 PM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
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« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2013, 10:22:54 PM »

Yeah I know what you mean  angel  One way to think about it is that the guidelines are like fences which keep us from going over cliffs. They seem to make us less free when we want to know what's on the other side, but if we try to smash through them we're in for a bad surprise.
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« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2013, 10:26:05 PM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.

You are a human and so am I, and we need our meat. Nationality has nothing to do with it. Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean. And we all have plenty of that. Those who don't want to admit it, are included.

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« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2013, 10:29:46 PM »

If you get depressed, you're not doing it right, I think.
...or you shouldn't be reading theology.

Basically.
Wha??? Explain please.
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« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2013, 10:31:09 PM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
You can always develop a medical reason. If you have IBS for example, it may take a while to learn how to eat when you have up to 50% of vegetarian food possibly working against you. My EO friend at work eats meat because his parents don't allow him to fast from meat, and his priest told him to respect his parents and fast when he moves out.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
I have been there. (Not with St. Chrystostom though.) It helps to find something to remember God's grace as well. Theosis is a process. Be patient and persevere, and God's grace will help you overcome your weakness.
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« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2013, 11:40:14 PM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
You can always develop a medical reason. If you have IBS for example, it may take a while to learn how to eat when you have up to 50% of vegetarian food possibly working against you. My EO friend at work eats meat because his parents don't allow him to fast from meat, and his priest told him to respect his parents and fast when he moves out.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.
I have been there. (Not with St. Chrystostom though.) It helps to find something to remember God's grace as well. Theosis is a process. Be patient and persevere, and God's grace will help you overcome your weakness.


I have no idea if I can achieve this wonderful theosis. These many rules that I can't prove they are from God's own mouth, drive me crazy. I feel Jealous of the pagans. At least they are happy. I am miserable.
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2013, 04:19:36 AM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2013, 08:28:30 AM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.
I thought he was baptized on his deathbed, so that he would not have much time in which to sin before he died.
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2013, 09:19:03 AM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.
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« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2013, 09:26:11 AM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean.

Well, technically, something does come out...
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« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2013, 10:38:41 AM »

10^Googol    

= googolplex
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« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2013, 10:40:57 AM »

Flee, if you can, even from the forum

Oh how many here I wish would follow this advice.

Also, the entire quote is sorta weak sauce apologetics for the Emperor.
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« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2013, 01:06:17 PM »

So killing each other in the name of war is "sometimes a necessary evil" but masturbating to relieve the tension to help you stay abstinent from real fornication is never acceptable?

This is something to discuss privately in confession with your priest.

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.   

With that said, (again not judging you), masturbation I do consider a sin.  This is why I support early marriages, that was common with the Early Christians.   Also, you are faced with horrible temptation today like it was not yesteryear.  A theologian in the 1300 A.D., did not see women their age in skimpy clothing, make-up, and "flaunting".   They did not have designer clothes cut to "flaunt" features.   I just don't know how to express it enough that I feel bad and wish that society accepted early marriages today like they did. 

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people. 
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum. 
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« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2013, 01:09:35 PM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
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« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2013, 01:23:31 PM »

Huh? Baptism is not conversion?

Again, you do not seem to understand what remorse, repentance and Confession are.

Yes, even the worst of sinners can be forgiven. Yes, this can even happen on his deathbed.

Whether he should have been forgiven has nothing to do with the date of any Council. Jesus forgave the repentant thief on the cross, just prior to death.
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« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2013, 01:25:15 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.
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« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2013, 01:26:44 PM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Didn't he have his wife executed for falsely claiming rape?
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« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2013, 01:33:13 PM »

Flee, if you can, even from the forum

Oh how many here I wish would follow this advice.

Also, the entire quote is sorta weak sauce apologetics for the Emperor.


Not apologetics so much as filling out the picture, IMO...  angel
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« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2013, 02:19:45 PM »

About St. Constatine, I recommend this book:

Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom
Peter J. Leithart

It's not Orthodox but it tries to break the stereotype created by Constantine critics. One reviewer put it this way:

Quote
"Constantine," as Leithart reminds us, "has been a whipping boy for a long time, and still is today." His name is identified with tyranny, anti-Semitism, hypocrisy, apostasy, and heresy. While experts in the field of early Christianity now believe that Constantine was a genuine Christian who earnestly tried to apply his faith to his role as Emperor, many other scholars and laymen incorrectly continue to claim otherwise.
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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2013, 02:32:27 PM »

Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2013, 03:01:36 PM »

Quote
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean.
That is not what it's about.

Mark 9:29 "But this kind [of demon] can be cast out in no other way except by prayer and fasting."

Matt 6:16  "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

Matt 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness...And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights..." 

Matt 9:14  "Then the disciples of John came to Him, asking, 'Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?' And Jesus said to them, 'The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."
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« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2013, 03:21:18 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.
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« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2013, 03:38:15 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.
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« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2013, 07:58:58 PM »

I just wish Orthodoxy wasn't so hard, you know? There has to be a lousy rule against everything fun. We can't even eat meat whenever we want. I'm an American. I NEED my meat.
Also, Jesus never said that what goes into you that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of you that makes you unclean.

Well, technically, something does come out...


absolutely. But he wasn't refering to peeing. This is natural, it was made that way, and like it or not, it will come. So he wasn't refering to that. What he meant however was the behaviours, the words, the thoughts are the source of these behaviours and words, whatever these are.
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2013, 12:19:07 AM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

St. Constantine would have let yeshuaisiam live. Other emperors, perhaps not.
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2013, 12:20:20 AM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

And how's sitting in judgment on the Church and her saints working out for you?
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2013, 12:37:30 AM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.
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« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2013, 12:40:33 AM »

Constantine killed his enemies.  He killed those who persecuted him.  He killed for lands & political reasons.  He did not turn the cheek.

He did not forgive his own WIFE and SON!   He KILLED them!

Do you mean after his conversion on the deathbed? He must have been quite lively.

That means little to people who don't believe in "baptismal regeneration". I suppose YIM is one of those people.

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

And how's sitting in judgment on the Church and her saints working out for you?

Interesting question.

So far so good.  Once I stopped fearing the men on top, succumbing to hypocrisy (ecumenism), it opened up my eyes a lot.

It allowed me to see that some things in Orthodoxy were not original at all.  It allowed me to see that things "imported" into Orthodox were often adapted out of paganism.  (Halos for example).   When I no longer feared excommunication, no longer saw that the EO faith determined where I went for salvation, it allowed me to delve deeper into what THEY would have me believe, and find some beautiful things.
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« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2013, 12:52:33 AM »

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.   

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people. 
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum. 

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.
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« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2013, 12:53:02 AM »

And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.
If St. Dismas could receive salvation on his cross - why can St. Constantine not in his deathbed, even if he did kill his wife and child? Why would Christ preach the parable of the prodigal son if he did not mean it and apply it himself?

Frankly, I don't see a problem if even Hitler turned out to be a prodigal son and in heaven right now. We do worship a God of love, forgiveness, and mercy - not a judgmental God of emotional human vengeance.
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« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2013, 12:53:45 AM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  
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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2013, 01:00:02 AM »

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.

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« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2013, 01:11:06 AM »

And who persecuted the Christians for over 300 years?
Adda boy, he stopped.
Then killed his wife and child.
If St. Dismas could receive salvation on his cross - why can St. Constantine not in his deathbed, even if he did kill his wife and child? Why would Christ preach the parable of the prodigal son if he did not mean it and apply it himself?

Frankly, I don't see a problem if even Hitler turned out to be a prodigal son and in heaven right now. We do worship a God of love, forgiveness, and mercy - not a judgmental God of emotional human vengeance.

I agree with the 2nd part.


If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins.  If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness.   I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.


Look, Compare the lives
St. Seraphim of Sarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Seraphim_of_Sarov
Good life, not extremely wealthy, humble, had forgiveness, lived in a cave for some time, dedicated Christian... Wonderful story

Constantine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_great
Murderous life, hundreds of thousands died by his swords, extremely wealthy, executed his wife and son, had coins made in his image, had empires....

There are great examples.  St. Seraphim is a wonderful example of a saint.   He makes me feel kind of depressed when reading about him because I realize I would not react as he did to thieves in non resistance.... I'm humbled by this man.
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« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2013, 01:15:26 AM »

I agree with the 2nd part.


If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins.  If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness.   I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.


Look, Compare the lives
St. Seraphim of Sarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Seraphim_of_Sarov
Good life, not extremely wealthy, humble, had forgiveness, lived in a cave for some time, dedicated Christian... Wonderful story

Constantine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_great
Murderous life, hundreds of thousands died by his swords, extremely wealthy, executed his wife and son, had coins made in his image, had empires....

There are great examples.  St. Seraphim is a wonderful example of a saint.   He makes me feel kind of depressed when reading about him because I realize I would not react as he did to thieves in non resistance.... I'm humbled by this man.

So we should only glorify those that God has glorified - if they lived a life of virtue, but otherwise we shouldn't glorify them as the saints they are? Hmm...
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« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2013, 01:43:06 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius




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« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2013, 01:46:39 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.
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« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2013, 07:52:20 AM »

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

St. Dismas was a murderer. You ignored that argument because he does not fit in your "gospel".

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies

Befeore conversion.

Quote
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands

Before conversion.

Quote
3) Did not turn the cheek

Before conversion.
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« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2013, 12:25:32 PM »

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.



why don't you admit that you don't like him instead of arguing all the time?. I don't personally like him either. But if he repented even at the last moment of his life. He deserves that we forgive him. People deserve that we forgive the inexcusable in them. Just as God forgives the inexcusable in us. Note: I am not defending him or anything. I just grant him forgiveness. No matter what he did.
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« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2013, 09:29:04 PM »

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

St. Dismas was a murderer. You ignored that argument because he does not fit in your "gospel".

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies

Befeore conversion.

Quote
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands

Before conversion.

Quote
3) Did not turn the cheek

Before conversion.

Don't agree.

Constantine held Nicea prior.
Eusebius wrote of his great faith in Nicea (and a lot of rump kissing as well)  

Constantine POST Nicea (where he was in the presence of many bishops) proceeded to murder his wife and son about a year later.  The man who held Nicea murdered hundreds of thousands of people years after Nicea.

What Constantine did for the church was the equivalent of a Tyrant.  He attacked, murdered, and plundered.  Basically got in bed with them.  Then they exalted him to sainthood.  Why?  Because he stopped hitting them.  (Edict of Milan).    Of course this edict also legalized every form of religion as well.

Can't compare him to almost every other saint.  

People even say he postponed baptism so he could live such a horrible live and be absolved from sin in the end...  

Anyway I just can't agree on Constantine.  So many other saints are great, and humble me.  This guy is just WOW.  
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« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2013, 09:32:25 PM »

James, I'll 150% guarantee you if you discuss this privately with a priest, they'll just gloss it over, shun it of, and give you bologna that beats around the bush.  There is no way around it.  The logic does NOT add up.

I would consider a man that lived a life of prostitutes, stealing, and a drug addict who repents better than Constantine "THE GREAT!".   He legalized Christianity probably only for power (to be fair, that is a hypothesis) because he sure did murder by invasion hundreds of thousands of people.  

Sorry the thread did go a bit off topic, but its true that I feel like a better Christian when I read about Constantine.  Sure, I struggle with a quick temper, judging others, and even sin in ways I don't know about.  But I did not murder my wife, child, or 100,000+++ people.  
If he's a saint....... Then we are amongst greatness on this forum.  

Why do you continue to war against Christ and attempt to drag people into perdition with you? That you cannot see Christ in His saints is not a sign of your holiness or wisdom but of your senseless delusion.

My war is not against Christ at all.

In my war nobody died.  My battle is with senseless delusion.

So let's see...

Christ taught us to
1) Forgive
2) Love our enemies
3) Turn the cheek

Constantine
1) Attacked his enemies
2) Loved them by killing hundreds of thousands
3) Did not turn the cheek

Sometimes people make me confused.  They say I have a senseless delusion, a war on Christ.... While they defend those who did not follow Christ, just because their church sainted a monster....

Because for many,  the church can't be wrong... Because the church became your idol...  They could do no wrong.   Never.... Never... They just can't be wrong.   Perhaps it's not my senseless delusion.



why don't you admit that you don't like him instead of arguing all the time?. I don't personally like him either. But if he repented even at the last moment of his life. He deserves that we forgive him. People deserve that we forgive the inexcusable in them. Just as God forgives the inexcusable in us. Note: I am not defending him or anything. I just grant him forgiveness. No matter what he did.

I don't like his actions, and I do forgive him.

It's the question of him being a Saint that drives me nuts.

However, in context of this thread, and along with what James said:  "If an Arian baptized tyrant did all this stuff..... and still was sainted....."    It makes all of us look like saints!

I feel like a much better Christian knowing Constantine made sainthood!  Smiley
But then I read of Tikhon and crawl back into my hole.
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« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2013, 09:36:42 PM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?
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« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »

Ignore you.
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« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2013, 10:50:40 PM »

Ignore you.
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« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2013, 11:22:49 PM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.
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« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2013, 11:31:37 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?
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« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2013, 11:40:50 PM »

What about St. Vladimir? Didn't he murder pagans and force his people to convert at the sword?
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« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2013, 11:46:09 PM »

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...
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« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2013, 11:50:32 PM »

Baptized Arian...
Constantine himself opposed Arianism,[1] and the notion that he was baptized by an Arian is debatable.[2]
______
[1] Eg. "I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
[2] From www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/05/was-constantine-great-baptized-arian.html
   "Regarding Eusebius of Nicomedia's confession of faith prior to the baptism of Constantine and during the First Ecumenical Council of 325, John Karmiris writes: "All the Fathers of the Synod accepted unanimously the Holy Creed, including those who professed Arianism, other than the above two, after around the six day dogmatic deliberations, and they signed on the 19th of June in the year 325" (The Dogmatic and Symbolic Writings of the Orthodox Catholic Church, vol. 1; p. 118).
   This makes clear that the 318 Fathers who attended the Council unanimously professed Orthodoxy. As for the phrase "other than the above two", Professor Karmiris noted a few paragraphs earlier that Theonas and Secundus were the only ones who confessed Arian teachings and did not accept the Nicene Creed. Eusebius of Nicomedia, though he did struggle to defend Arian doctrines, in the end he did sign in favor of the Nicene Creed, but together with Theognis of Nicaea and Maris of Chalcedon refused to excommunicate Arius. For this refusal and disloyalty, Constantine had not only Arius, Theonas and Secundus exiled, but also Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nicaea and Maris of Chalcedon. Not long after however they were reinstated by the Church, according to the historian Sozomen, who writes:
   'Not long after, Eusebius, bishop of Nicomedia, and Theognis, bishop of Nicæa, regained possession of their churches after expelling Amphion and Chrestos who had been ordained in their stead. They owed their restoration to a document which they had presented to the bishops, containing a retraction: "Although we have been condemned without a trial by your piety, we deemed it right to remain silent concerning the judgment passed by your piety. But as it would be absurd to remain longer silent, when silence is regarded as a proof of the truth of the calumniators, we now declare to you that we too agree in this faith, and after a diligent examination of the thought in the word 'consubstantial,' we are wholly intent upon preserving peace, and that we never pursued any heresy. Having proposed for the safety of the churches such argument as occurred to us, and having been fully convinced, and fully convincing those who ought to have been persuaded by us, we undersigned the creed; but we did not subscribe to the anathema, not because we impugned the creed, but because we did not believe the accused to be what he was represented to us; the letters we had received from him, and the arguments he had delivered in our presence, fully satisfying us that he was not such an one. Would that the holy Synod were convinced that we are not bent on opposing, but are accordant with the points accurately defined by you, and by this document, we do attest our assent thereto: and this is not because we are wearied of exile, but because we wish to avert all suspicion of heresy; for if you will condescend to admit us now into your presence, you will find us in all points of the same sentiments as yourselves, and obedient to your decisions, and then it shall seem good to your piety to be merciful to him who was accused on these points and to have him recalled. If the party amenable to justice has been recalled and has defended himself from the charge made, it would be absurd, were we by our silence to confirm the reports that calumny had spread against us. We beseech you then, as befits your piety, dear to Christ, that you memorialize our emperor, most beloved of God, and that you hand over our petition, and that you counsel quickly, what is agreeable to you concerning us." It was by these means that Eusebius and Theognis, after their change of sentiment, were reinstated in their churches.' (Ecclesiastical History, Book 2, Chapter 16)
   This letter given to us through Sozomen is significant, because it states that Eusebius of Nicomedia accepted the Orthodox Faith and sought communion with the Catholic Church and renounced the heresy of Arius. It also reveals why Eusebius was sent into exile originally - because he refused to excommunicate Arius" (ibid).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 12:00:23 AM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2013, 12:21:49 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.

Totally amen.
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« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2013, 12:25:07 AM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

Many very holy people viewed themselves as the worst of sinners--basically all the saints, particularly even the ascetics who lived in holiness from birth. The closer one comes to God, the more one realizes his sins, their magnitude, the utter depths of his depravity, his great indebtedness to God. And he does not look at anyone else and say, "I'm not as bad as that guy," but rather sees him as better than himself. This is because he covers and makes excuses (out of genuine love and humility, not out of delusion or because he ignores sin) for others, but not for himself, for he knows he has no excuse for his evil deeds.
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« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2013, 12:26:08 AM »

What about St. Vladimir? Didn't he murder pagans and force his people to convert at the sword?

Idk about murdering pagans. There were several Christian martyrs killed under his rule befoe his conversion.
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« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2013, 12:27:34 AM »

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable. After all, there were Christians suffering for their faith in the gulags until after Stalin's death. (See Fr. Arseny)
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« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2013, 05:01:33 AM »

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable.

This is not. He made a break to raise morale and win the war.
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« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2013, 11:11:05 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.




By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven
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« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2013, 11:14:28 AM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?
\
not really. We can;;t.
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« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2013, 11:16:09 AM »

Calling the guy who stopped over 300 years of persecution of Christians a monster is a little ungrateful, don't you think? And baptism washes away all sins.

Well, to be fair, even Joseph Stalin ended the persecution of the Church for a while...

This is highly debatable.

This is not. He made a break to raise morale and win the war.

And yet he did not release those in prison for their faith.
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« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2013, 11:17:26 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.




By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven

I think the greatest saints would argue with you on this.
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« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2013, 11:19:43 AM »

At the end of the day. Why don't we let God decide who is and who isn't a saint. Rather than our own wishes?
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« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2013, 11:20:51 AM »

"Eusebius's account is revealing for our purposes, particularly in the contrast that Eusebius draws between Constantine the emperor and Constantine the baptized Christian. Baptism was the moment of his 'regeneration and perfection,' the moment when the emperor was received into the people of God. Constantine had the same view. Not only did he discard the imperial purple when he took on the baptismal white, but in his final speech to Eusebius and the other bishops he expressed his wish that, should his life continue, he would be 'associate[d] with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his church' and devote himself to 'such a course of life as befits his service.' This comes in the closing chapters of a biography that has described Constantine's vision before the battle with Maxentius, his support for the church and suppression of paganism, his Christian legislation, his devotion to prayer and study, his victories in wars often presented as holy wars, his missionary zeal. At the end of all this, Eusebius quoted Constantine saying that in the future he would devote himself to the service of the God whose salvation was sealed to him in his baptism. As Eusebius recounted the story, Constantine seemed to believe there was a basic incompatibility between being an emperor and being a Christian, between court and church, warfare and prayer, the purple and the white. It would be an ironic conclusion: Constantine, the first anti-Constantinian. Constantine the Yoderian." -Peter J. Leithart's (PhD. Cambridge), Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christianity (IVP Academic 2010), p. 300.

"I know that the plenitude of the Father's and the Son's pre-eminence and all-pervading power is one substance." -Constantine's Letter to Arius
Great passage, thanks for sharing that.



I'm glad he repented of his sins.

Legalize every religion (pagan, Christian etc)
Throw Nicea
Murder your wife, child, and hundreds of thousands of people. 
Death Bed - Repent - Baptized Arian
Die

Sainted.

Forgiveness is his in repentance... But sainthood? 

Anyway, I've beaten this into the ground way too much.... Sorry.

I'm sure most of you understand the concern here...   what ya gonna do anyway?

If you suppose the worst of men cannot become saints you have no true understanding of Christianity.




By God's grace they absolutely can. It's just that only a few actually become saints. Most just become forgiven

I think the greatest saints would argue with you on this.


on which part of this comment?
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« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2013, 11:44:44 AM »

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net. Wink
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« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net. Wink

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?
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« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2013, 01:22:49 PM »

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net. Wink

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?

See the Wink ?

It's a joke, son, a joke!
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« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2013, 01:32:35 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.
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« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2013, 01:35:00 PM »

Regarding the OP, it's usually two pages of a thread on OC.net. Wink

you find this site depressive? why? don't we all have fun here?

See the Wink ?

It's a joke, son, a joke!

I have fun here usually.   I really like the guy who posts "Is Outrage!!!!!"   Grin

Of course, we all understand, with religion, politics, and debate ==== All sensitive issues.   I hang out in the Religious Topics area too much and argue a lot.   In other sections I see most get along. Smiley
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« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2013, 01:36:49 PM »



I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26



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« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2013, 06:19:02 PM »



I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26








Ok. I am not going to challenge the Gospel. But why exactly is he specifically a murderer? He says he doesn't kill people, and I bet he doesn't encourage others to do it either. He seems to be no more and no less sinful than anyone else. And taking a life to me is one of the worst sins one can commit, and he doesn't.
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« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2013, 06:28:00 PM »

Obviously, tweety, you didn't even read the verses Schultz mentioned. Here they are. Pay special attention to verse 22.


Mt. 5:21-26

21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee;

24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.



Also, here is 1 John 3:15, which explains why he is "like a murderer."

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 06:30:39 PM by biro » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2013, 07:07:01 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.
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« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2013, 07:33:31 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.
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« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2013, 07:37:13 PM »

Quote from: Ashman618
I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

Lord have mercy.  Cry
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« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2013, 07:52:42 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born
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« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2013, 08:03:12 PM »

God forgives. But I applaud your forthrightness. Perhaps others will read that and think about it.
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« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2013, 08:30:42 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born


Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.
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« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2013, 08:42:03 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born


Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.
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« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2013, 02:05:54 AM »

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.
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« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2013, 02:27:25 AM »

Don't worry, be happy!
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« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2013, 06:38:45 AM »

he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

Do you mean baptism?
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« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2013, 11:29:19 PM »

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

and I the whole humanity. except my best friends. But that is only because I see in their face a light which I would not dare to turn off. Because they give meaning to my life.
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« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2013, 11:34:54 PM »

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

off topic: regarding the cool Christian city. I wonder if the reason we (greeks) lost the city to turks, is because of his sins (maybe he wasn't being honest when he built it), or because we greeks are not that much of murderous to actually demand our city. Funny thing is, his city is 1 hour and a 1/2 from the city I grew up.
However, I don't feel any hatred for him. He did not do anything to me personally, so I cannot condemn him for something. I also don't feel any hatred towards the turks, although they enslaved my copatriots.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:36:54 PM by tweety234 » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2013, 12:16:39 AM »



I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26


I don't see the scriptures as you do.  

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


It says I am in danger of judgment, because I do get angry sometimes by my own admission.
I do not see where it says that those who are angry are guilty of murder.

Raca translated "lesser fool" or "imbecile"....

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« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2013, 12:20:38 AM »

Obviously, tweety, you didn't even read the verses Schultz mentioned. Here they are. Pay special attention to verse 22.


Mt. 5:21-26

21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee;

24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.



Also, here is 1 John 3:15, which explains why he is "like a murderer."

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself.

Actually you didn't read them.

It does not call those who are angry a murderer.

You can also be angry at people and NOT hate them.

I get angry with my children sometimes, and i do not hate them at all.   Not even for a moment.
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« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2013, 12:27:41 AM »

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

Where does he say this?

He talked about 'he that hateth', not just angry.

If it is ANGER that is murder, then Jesus did so in the Temple...

But it's not.  He talked about HATE.  Two very different things.

If your parents are angry with you, they do not HATE you.   You may seriously dislike somebody at school, but you may not HATE them.  Even if you have said "I hate you" to somebody, it may have been in anger, but not hatred.

I think this needs to be very well defined.  People say dumb stuff when they are angry, still accountable, but different than hatred.
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« Reply #140 on: January 07, 2013, 02:33:48 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Are you saying you know better than him?
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« Reply #141 on: January 07, 2013, 02:41:39 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Are you saying you know better than him?


No. But I am wondering why he thinks he knows better than everyone else.
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« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2013, 01:58:47 PM »

The cause of the depression for me is probably different from the cause of yours whilst reading theology.
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« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2013, 02:03:12 PM »

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed.  he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Are you saying you know better than him?

No. But I am wondering why he thinks he knows better than everyone else.

Well, because the church decided he does? He is a Holy Father, "Great Hierarch". One of the most revered. It has been decided the holy spirit worked through him.  So it is not our authority to question him, because then we would be questioning the holy fathers. It cannot be made much more simple.
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« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2013, 02:41:13 PM »

It should be ok for JamesR to be honest about what he thinks, though. If reading St. John endangers his trust in God perhaps he needs to take a break and read a different saint for a while.
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« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2013, 03:44:03 PM »

The cause of the depression for me is probably different from the cause of yours whilst reading theology.

everyone's cause of depression is different. You are not the only one who has a different cause of depression. Everyone of us is unique, and so are the causes of our depression.
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« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2013, 01:39:39 AM »

[...] Masturbation I would consider a sin and self serving, [...]
                                                     Roll Eyes
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« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2013, 04:28:37 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born


Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.

St. Constantine also discouraged the pagan practice of abortion and the exposure of infants (abandonment) by increasing money and food given to families to help them support their children.  I'm pretty sure I read that in Treadgold's History of Byzantine State.

So, only God knows how many lives he saved by this one decision he made.  He also made other decisions regarding temple prostitution, which involved children, if I remember correctly.  

And if people want to be upset with other people whose lives they find difficult to understand, whose burdens only God fully understands, and from which they've been mercifully spared, they could just as easily be upset with St. Eirini the Empress, who had her own son's eyes put out.  

Being royalty evidently has a special set of challenges that few can imagine.

Honestly, she kind of scares me a little bit, and even more when I was gifted her icon by one of the family members of one of our yia yia's who had fallen asleep.  It was from her icon corner, though St. Eirini the Empress isn't my particular patron saint.  Her icon is right beside me as I type, and yia yia's photo is right behind me.  St. Eirini was involved in ending the iconoclast heresy.

I think you've just helped me open a window of understanding after years of living with this icon.  Thank God and thank you.

Lord have mercy on us.

Edit: parallel transliteration of spelling of Eirini
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« Reply #148 on: January 20, 2013, 05:07:31 PM »

If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins.  If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness.   I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.


On the murder of Crispus and Fausta:

Quote
When Constantine the Great was Caesar in the West, Rome proclaimed the cruel, anti-Christian, Maxentius, as emperor, who wishing to cover his back in the west, since he feared Constantine, forced him to divorce his wife, Minervina and marry Fausta, a very ambitious and cunning woman who was also Maxentius’ sister, in order to control him. When she saw Constantine’s eldest son, Crispus, distinguishing himself in battles and being groomed for the succession, she wanted to destroy him at all costs, in order to promote her own three sons to positions of power. So she slandered Crispus by saying that he had tried to rape her and kill his father in order to seize power, like a new Absalom. Unfortunately, Fausta’s plot was so convincing and her lies so persuasive that Constantine and the generals fell into the demonic trap. And they allowed Crispus to be put to death, in accordance with the law. When the queen mother, (Saint) Helen, who was many miles away, learned what had happened she rebuked her son severely for his decision. Constantine instituted exhaustive enquiries, from which it became clear that he was the victim of a criminal conspiracy on the part of his wife, Fausta, and her supporters. So he ordered that she, too, be put to death. These two murders of people of his own family greatly distressed Constantine, who regretted them bitterly to the end of his days and sought God’s forgiveness. And in order to show his repentance publicly he had a statue erected to Crispus, with the inscription “To my much-wronged son”.

http://www.pemptousia.com/2012/11/saint-constantine-the-great/

http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/History-of-the-Popes/GalleryofHistory/CONSTANTINE_THE_GREAT/12.html

On his baptism and death:

Quote
Eusebius of Caesarea, Life of Constantine, Book IV

Chapter 61. His Sickness at Helenopolis, and Prayers respecting his Baptism.

At first he experienced some slight bodily indisposition, which was soon followed by positive disease. In consequence of this he visited the hot baths of his own city; and thence proceeded to that which bore the name of his mother. Here he passed some time in the church of the martyrs, and offered up supplications and prayers to God. Being at length convinced that his life was drawing to a close, he felt the time had come at which he should seek purification from sins of his past career, firmly believing that whatever errors he had committed as a mortal man, his soul would be purified from them through the efficacy of the mystical words and the salutary waters of baptism. Impressed with these thoughts, he poured forth his supplications and confessions to God, kneeling on the pavement in the church itself, in which he also now for the first time received the imposition of hands with prayer. After this he proceeded as far as the suburbs of Nicomedia, and there, having summoned the bishops to meet him, addressed them in the following words.

Chapter 62. Constantine's Appeal to the Bishops, requesting them to confer upon him the Rite of Baptism.

"The time is arrived which I have long hoped for, with an earnest desire and prayer that I might obtain the salvation of God. The hour has come in which I too may have the blessing of that seal which confers immortality; the hour in which I may receive the seal of salvation. I had thought to do this in the waters of the river Jordan, wherein our Saviour, for our example, is recorded to have been baptized: but God, who knows what is expedient for us, is pleased that I should receive this blessing here. Be it so, then, without delay: for should it be his will who is Lord of life and death, that my existence here should be prolonged, and should I be destined henceforth to associate with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his Church, I will prescribe to myself from this time such a course of life as befits his service." After he had thus spoken, the prelates performed the sacred ceremonies in the usual manner, and, having given him the necessary instructions, made him a partaker of the mystic ordinance. Thus was Constantine the first of all sovereigns who was regenerated and perfected in a church dedicated to the martyrs of Christ; thus gifted with the Divine seal of baptism, he rejoiced in spirit, was renewed, and filled with heavenly light: his soul was gladdened by reason of the fervency of his faith, and astonished at the manifestation of the power of God. At the conclusion of the ceremony he arrayed himself in shining imperial vestments, brilliant as the light, and reclined on a couch of the purest white, refusing to clothe himself with the purple any more.

Chapter 63. How after his Baptism he rendered Thanks to God.

He then lifted his voice and poured forth a strain of thanksgiving to God; after which he added these words. "Now I know that I am truly blessed: now I feel assured that I am accounted worthy of immortality, and am made a partaker of Divine light." He further expressed his compassion for the unhappy condition of those who were strangers to such blessings as he enjoyed: and when the tribunes and generals of his army appeared in his presence with lamentations and tears at the prospect of their bereavement, and with prayers that his days might yet be prolonged, he assured them in reply that he was now in possession of true life; that none but himself could know the value of the blessings he had received; so that he was anxious rather to hasten than to defer his departure to God. He then proceeded to complete the needful arrangement of his affairs, bequeathing an annual donation to the Roman inhabitants of his imperial city; apportioning the inheritance of the empire, like a patrimonial estate, among his own children; in short, making every disposition according to his own pleasure.

Chapter 64. Constantine's Death at Noon on the Feast of Pentecost.

All these events occurred during a most important festival, I mean the august and holy solemnity of Pentecost, which is distinguished by a period of seven weeks, and sealed with that one day on which the holy Scriptures attest, the ascension of our common Saviour into heaven, and the descent of the Holy Spirit among men. In the course of this feast the emperor received the privileges I have described; and on the last day of all, which one might justly call the feast of feasts, he was removed about mid-day to the presence of his God, leaving his mortal remains to his fellow mortals, and carrying into fellowship with God that part of his being which was capable of understanding and loving him. Such was the close of Constantine's mortal life.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/25024.htm
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« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2013, 05:09:57 PM »

For me it takes less than 10. If the subject is a non-dogmatic though, that is another story.

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« Reply #150 on: January 20, 2013, 11:14:10 PM »

You guys don't know about your Saint.
He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...
Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH.  Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize.   A MONSTER.
If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.
Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints.  LOTS of them that are wonderful role models.   This guy does not compare.  He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others.  Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon.  No comparison with St. Catherine.  No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them).   He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare.   Deathbed confession is great.  Deathbed baptism is great.  A saint?  Sorry, can't agree.  

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.
I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.
I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.
My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins...  I'm not perfect.   Can I say his sins are worse than mine?  Absolutely.
I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God.  I don't say that in boast or pride.  But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign?  His own wife?  His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon.   No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.  

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit.  Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins.   In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison.   It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic.   I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins.  We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them.   Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth.   It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second.  I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that.   It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot.  Way more than I care to admit.  I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with.  I do judge others often, which is sinful.  I am often disrespectful to others.   There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second.   I don't kill people.  I don't cheat on my spouse.  I don't command military troops to kill others.  I do not rape.  I do not rob banks.  I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine.   I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well.   I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic.  I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children.  We have a farm, animals etc.  

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin?   This is meant without boast.


Are your (meant for everybody reading this) sins worse than the Sandy Hook shooter?

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood?  The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine.  He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea.  Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good.   Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him.  Great.    But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole.   Because that man was an excellent Christian.   A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.


but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born


Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.

St. Constantine also discouraged the pagan practice of abortion and the exposure of infants (abandonment) by increasing money and food given to families to help them support their children.  I'm pretty sure I read that in Treadgold's History of Byzantine State.

So, only God knows how many lives he saved by this one decision he made.  He also made other decisions regarding temple prostitution, which involved children, if I remember correctly.  

And if people want to be upset with other people whose lives they find difficult to understand, whose burdens only God fully understands, and from which they've been mercifully spared, they could just as easily be upset with St. Eirini the Empress, who had her own son's eyes put out.  

Being royalty evidently has a special set of challenges that few can imagine.

Honestly, she kind of scares me a little bit, and even more when I was gifted her icon by one of the family members of one of our yia yia's who had fallen asleep.  It was from her icon corner, though St. Eirini the Empress isn't my particular patron saint.  Her icon is right beside me as I type, and yia yia's photo is right behind me.  St. Eirini was involved in ending the iconoclast heresy.

I think you've just helped me open a window of understanding after years of living with this icon.  Thank God and thank you.

Lord have mercy on us.

Edit: parallel transliteration of spelling of Eirini

Correction to my post (not that anyone cares or is actually read my post, but just in case).  Empress Irene (Irene of Athens) was never canonized as a saint by the Orthodox Church, but Theodore the Studite referred to her as a saint for her restoration of icons and monasteries according to OrthodoxWiki.  It's a common misconception that she was canonized, probably propagated by the West based on writings by the Bollandists.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Irene_of_Athens

The icon I have simply reads Ayia EIPHNI and is probably St. Irene the Martyr.  I am actually kind of relieved.
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