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Author Topic: Theological Breakthrough: Problem of Suffering Refuted, Permanently  (Read 4441 times) Average Rating: 2
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SavedByChrist94
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« on: December 29, 2012, 09:10:48 PM »

Problem of Suffering Refuted, Permanently Problem of Suffering only exists for "atheism", making "atheism" false.

Now I wrote this at the un-Biblical man indoctrined ran, "Christian"Forums.com, however after being banned they took I assume almost all my post down, so I'm posting here.


Refuting the “problems of suffering” in relation to God, inventing Irrefutable Problem of suffering for “atheism”

Lets knock this out the park fast and quick, after Newtown shootings my OCD spiked and I got intrusive thoughts, so I went into debates in my head refuting the problem of suffering, and in my head I actually refuted it in a new manner.


So lets refute the “problem of suffering”
When I say God, I mean The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.(for OCD’s sake)
1, God has no obligation to end suffering/evil.
2, Without suffering therefore is no evil, and the choice to do evil must exist for free will, and free will must exist in order for human beings with consciousness to exist.
3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)
4, God must allow suffering to prevent further suffering, why? If a human has no experienced suffering, they(when they get to Heaven) will be like Adam, Eve and The Angels, they can sin, thus starting sin and suffering all over again, sending themselves to Hell, to solve this, God would allow the human to suffer(best to suffer a lot, not to sound bad but if you think and continue reading(before I get slandered) why? So that when they get to Heaven /New Earth they do not sin. After experiencing Heaven then looking back, no way anyone would go back to their old ways(Even I Born Again am incapable of going back to my old ways because of my experience with Jesus Christ(God) on this earth, imagine in Heaven? No way I’d even sin and I’d still have my free will. Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.
5, God already choose a moment in time when He will return. Why doesn’t He end suffering now? Well why not 1000 years ago? Here’s a few reasons,

1, Not according to plan
2, Wants to create a lot of beings as most likely in Heaven new beings will not be created and suffering prevents us from sinning in Heaven(4)

3, He wanted you to exist(which means in order to exist you’d have to suffer, and added with 4 that secures you for eternity)

4,
6, Jesus Christ(God Himself) didn’t deserve to die, yet humanity killed Him for no deserving reason, only because He is Perfect. And He went through The suffering, so God isn’t lavishing while we suffer, He suffered and suffers(He feels our pain) with us, but even He was He is still perfect.

7, Without ability to lack good(evil), free will cannot exist therefore consciousness/minds cannot exist, therefore we wouldn’t exist.

8, humanity causes it’s own suffering. And it’s temporary, those who go to Heaven with Jesus Christ will be there for eternity, seems long, but fair.

9, God must end all suffering at once(everyone suffers by the way one way or the other), ending some isn’t fair, etc, God is fair, therefore ends either none or all suffering at once, He is all graceful and merciful therefore ends all suffering at once, which is basically The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


With that proven, the problem of suffering against God is nonexistent, There’s no problem of suffering. There’s the solution of suffering, which is, prevents future suffering and is only temporary.

Now introducing the problem of suffering for “naturalism”/”atheism”

Suffering exists, and is a wrong, wrong means an improper function, we’re not supposed to function like this, therefore there has to be a solution to this improper function, under “naturalism” there is no solution, improper functions have solutions as returning to the original(or better) state is the proper function. “naturalism” is incapable of morally and emotionally bringing one to the natural/normal/proper function, therefore “naturalism” is false. God can do this, therefore God must necessarily exist. If a theory for a producer cannot bring back it’s production to the original state, then that isn’t the producer, as the producer can create the original state, therefore return it to it’s original state.

Which reminds me, Death also disproves “naturalism”, if “naturalism” were true then nature would be capable of Resurrecting someone from the dead just like starting life, according to a lot of “naturalist” this is impossible, so those that hold to that view lose it.

2, under “naturalism” free will wouldn’t exist, therefore good nor evil would exist, nor even consciousness.

Therefore “naturalism” is false and The Problem of Suffering and Evil is only for “atheism”

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is Irrefutable and has no problems, while “naturalism” is totally refuteable and has many problems, which means God existing is more probable than “naturalism” so belief can only go to God, saying or believing otherwise is a delusion.

But wait, there’s more! God must Necessarily exist and “naturalism” cannot exist, therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Factually Exists and “naturalism” is Factually false.

So yes the anger my OCD and intrusive thoughts enraged in me caused me to further kill “naturalism”

God Bless those who are mourning over the deaths of those innocent children, they will see them again one day, and that’s not just a guarantee but a fact. The More I think about it, the more “naturalism” cannot be true.

Life doesn’t end at the grave, so don’t be afraid, God allows suffering for good reason, so there won’t be anymore suffering. Also one more argument that is a fact, God is all fair, therefore those who say “where was God during 9/11 and Sandy Hook/Newtown.?” , God is all fair, so in order for God to have prevented those events, He would have to prevent all evil events, which would basically mean Jesus Christ Second Coming. The pain of those who suffered will be no more. Remember this, God allows suffering, but does not cause it. He is All Good therefore causes no unrighteous suffering and since all good will prevent further suffering, in order to do that suffering needs to be allowed, so when Heaven comes no one rebels again.

Added with the fact that humanity can't be hypocrites, here's one exposure. we can if we all wanted to make sure everyone is fed, people say, why didn't God feed the starving in Africa? I cite Matthew 7:5, you hypocrite! you can easily feed people in Africa. God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) commands us to give to the poor, this offers us Repentance, people say God is everywhere, why doesn't He help? Because humans are everywhere too, remember Genesis, God put us in charge of the earth, we're supposed to be homekeepers, make sure God's Creation is good and we don't, God already gave the food, time to share it. we(including me, I'm not going to be hypocritical as that would be pharisee like) don't do enough, then we blame God when He provided it all and answers prayers. with sin, stupidity, laziness, greed, etc the things we whin about will never be fixed, The Prayers been answered? God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) says Hello! He's provided the food and The Bible, and sustains us, and He will end all suffering one day, want suffering to go away sooner? Do something!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 09:33:17 PM by SavedByChrist94 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 09:23:54 PM »

How old are you? 19?


I hope you don't mind me asking.

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3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)


Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 09:27:03 PM »

Do you plan on copying everything you posted before at christianforums.com, or just the long ones?
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SavedByChrist94
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 09:41:17 PM »

Do you plan on copying everything you posted before at christianforums.com, or just the long ones?

Maybe, have good stuff, that website was wrong, banned me permanently for some minor mistakes(a few one liners against anti-premartial sex-ist, calvinist "agnostics" and "atheist" which I apologized for) yet they let people who are bigoted(one "atheist" personally compared me to westboro and when I asked for proof, he stayed shut, reported him for it and he I believe is still on that website)

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 09:41:26 PM »

How old are you? 19?

18.

Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 09:53:05 PM »

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Modest, too! Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 09:59:11 PM »

How old are you? 19?

18.

Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.

I'll let you argue with those closer to your age group.
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 10:09:46 PM »

How old are you? 19?

18.

Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.

I'll let you argue with those closer to your age group.

Why the insult? I'm defending The Bible and I did it well, you should be with me, what I do to you? I destroyed The problem of suffering(Thanks to The Lord Jesus Christ), this should be good news to you. who cares how old I am? see now I'm dead on this website, on ChristianForums I would destroy all man made anti-Biblical doctrines well, and others would agree until I gave my age, then they used that against me, if I kept my age secret there would be no rebuttals as my arguments are rock solid, The Holy Spirit Inspired me.

I'll Leave you with this 1 Timothy 4,

4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:11:28 PM by SavedByChrist94 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 10:09:52 PM »

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Modest, too! Tongue

I'm not trying to be arrogant, just telling The Truth, everything I get I know it's from The Holy Spirit, He has given it to me from His Word, my heart, science, history, logic, philosophy, physics etc and anyone else can do this too.

Guaranteed if everyone had all my arguments(which is basically a culmination of the works Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, Allen Rich, C.S. Lewis, and a bunch of other Christian Defenders, Christian websites, Bible Studies, and from The Holy Spirit) then you will never lose a debate, if I could counter trolling(aka daveellis on ChristianForums) well then I would never lose a debate, but based on Facts alone, I not to boast, always win because God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is True.
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 10:12:25 PM »

Nothing personal, but did your cat just run on the keyboard?
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 10:15:45 PM »

Nothing personal, but did your cat just run on the keyboard?

Nothing personal but do you suffer from I.O.R.A.S. which is known as, Incapable Of Refuting Anything Syndrome?
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 10:22:32 PM »

Nothing personal, but did your cat just run on the keyboard?

Nothing personal but do you suffer from I.O.R.A.S. which is known as, Incapable Of Refuting Anything Syndrome?

 Roll Eyes

So, are you just_some_guy or that other guy who was here before him? Because you sound awfully familiar. The exact same subject and quotes. Wow.

But it's your choice, what you do is yours. Not anyone else's.
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 10:24:25 PM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.  If I may make a suggestion, prior to supplying a reply, take some time to think about what you want to say.  You can even prepare your response, come back in a few hours and tweak it a bit, then the next day take a final look to see if there is anything you think should be worded differently.  Once done, post.  Of course, you don’t have to, but I feel it would help.

Being right isn’t a contest and no one listens to the loud mouth in the room.  For instance, I could easily pick apart much of what you posted, but I have not and I do not intend to.  Why?  Because I know if you stick around for any amount of time and actually listen to what people have to say, you will learn and as a result, your views will change, likely for the better.  But the choice is yours.

Finally, the fact you are younger in no way says you are dumb, but when someone says they will not debate you, it’s probably the result of their experience and your inexperience creating an environment which is not set up for success.  In other words, you theorize, they know.  Not your fault, it’s just the way things are.  As you grow, learn and experience, this will change.
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:29:54 PM by SavedByChrist94 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 10:31:47 PM »

Nothing personal, but did your cat just run on the keyboard?

Nothing personal but do you suffer from I.O.R.A.S. which is known as, Incapable Of Refuting Anything Syndrome?

 Roll Eyes

So, are you just_some_guy or that other guy who was here before him? Because you sound awfully familiar. The exact same subject and quotes. Wow.

But it's your choice, what you do is yours. Not anyone else's.

I'm the same 18 year old Born Again Nondenominational Christian who  has interest in Eastern Orthodox Church and goes to a Catholic Church every Sunday from Christianforums who was banned unjustly from, ChristianForums. like Amanda Bynes would say in AskAshley, That's me!
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2012, 11:13:19 PM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.  If I may make a suggestion, prior to supplying a reply, take some time to think about what you want to say.  You can even prepare your response, come back in a few hours and tweak it a bit, then the next day take a final look to see if there is anything you think should be worded differently.  Once done, post.  Of course, you don’t have to, but I feel it would help.

This disarmed me and I applaud you for bringing up the importance of civility.
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2012, 11:18:23 PM »

One issue that I think people often overlook in regards to this topic is that free-will is not as easy a thing to assert as we would like to think. It is one of the ultimate philosophical debates that people of all worldviews have been debating for ages and ages. Ultimately, the Christian solution to the problem of suffering can be answered by free-will. Well what if someone does not believe in free-will? What if they assert that all actions are merely the result of stimuli in our brains reacting to its environment, that the element of choice is merely an illusion? Just saying the answer is free-will makes one helluva philsophical leap by assuming that free-will exists.
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2012, 11:31:42 PM »

One issue that I think people often overlook in regards to this topic is that free-will is not as easy a thing to assert as we would like to think. It is one of the ultimate philosophical debates that people of all worldviews have been debating for ages and ages. Ultimately, the Christian solution to the problem of suffering can be answered by free-will. Well what if someone does not believe in free-will? What if they assert that all actions are merely the result of stimuli in our brains reacting to its environment, that the element of choice is merely an illusion? Just saying the answer is free-will makes one helluva philsophical leap by assuming that free-will exists.

If free will is the illusion of brain stimuli reacting to environment, and one intentionally changes his environment to stimulate his brain differently, is that an act of free will? Maybe changing our stimulus is the only act of will we can do.
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 11:34:10 PM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?
It seems I was correct.
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 01:17:16 AM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?
It seems I was correct.

What do you mean?
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 04:37:36 AM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?
It seems I was correct.

What do you mean?
I mean, you started this thread with what, 10 posts, and began immediately with how you were unjustly ejected from another thread, which itself is not a bad thing.  I suggested a course of action in the hopes it would benefit you in future internet interaction.  Of course, you are not required to take my advice, but your follow up explains how you were smarter than some adult, defeated him in a debate, and became defensive about what I know or don't know about you.  Now, I am just guessing, but I imagine you probably didn’t either understand what he was saying or were too closed off to care.

Things you should consider.  Discussion here is not necessarily a debate.  Debates have winners and losers.  This is a place where we exchange knowledge, understanding, and ideas.  There is no need for a winner or a loser.  To be fair, we all get a little heated and lack a little self-control now and again.  Just relax and enjoy the ride here on OC.net.  There is a lot to learn. 
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 04:40:27 AM »

I’m beginning to see the problem.  In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?
It seems I was correct.

What do you mean?
I mean, you started this thread with what, 10 posts, and began immediately with how you were unjustly ejected from another thread, which itself is not a bad thing.  I suggested a course of action in the hopes it would benefit you in future internet interaction.  Of course, you are not required to take my advice, but your follow up explains how you were smarter than some adult, defeated him in a debate, and became defensive about what I know or don't know about you.  Now, I am just guessing, but I imagine you probably didn’t either understand what he was saying or were too closed off to care.

Things you should consider.  Discussion here is not necessarily a debate.  Debates have winners and losers.  This is a place where we exchange knowledge, understanding, and ideas.  There is no need for a winner or a loser.  To be fair, we all get a little heated and lack a little self-control now and again.  Just relax and enjoy the ride here on OC.net.  There is a lot to learn. 


I wasn't talking Denomination specific, but stuff contrary to The Gospel such as calvinism, "atheism", "agnostics", "islam", "buddhism" etc that requires a Winner/Loser and that with The Holy Spirit, only us Christians can win.

GodThe Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Bless though, you're a cool guy.
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 06:52:31 AM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 07:12:04 AM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes
Come on LBK, give him a chance.
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 07:27:37 AM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes
Come on LBK, give him a chance.

Only an act of God can sway such types. I'm old enough and ugly enough to know, and I've tangled with quite a few of them in my time. The older ones are just as stubborn as the young 'uns.
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2012, 11:57:29 AM »

That post was suffering to go through.
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« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2012, 12:01:55 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2012, 01:25:10 PM »

I think it would be nice if we returned to the original topic, since it is a rather interesting one IMO

Generally, SBC94, I think there are some points, where you need to elaborate.
For example, you mention, that God hasn't ended suffering yet, because it is not a part of his plan. If this opinion stands alone, it might lead people to assume that God is cruel, since since He has the power to end suffering but chooses not to do so, because it doesn't fit into His arrangements.

Also, you mention the "natural function" of humanity, but doesn't explain what exactly characterises this function. An atheist might not even acknowledge that humanity has a prober function.

Your argument that death disproves naturalism, seems a little strange to me. Creation follows the laws of nature, which God has given them to follow. The fact that He can choose to abolish the laws, for example by resurrecting the dead or by miracles is an entirely different subject. One of the main beliefs of naturalism  is exactly that everything can be explained scientifically, and most naturalists would therefore (I assume) refuse the entire concept of the Resurrection.

Generally, what you have posted is a theological argument, this is completely fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but it contains very little factual evidence to your arguments. That doesn't necessarily make them false, but if you're having a discussion with a person, who, doesn't even belief in God, it will be very hard to convince him by theological statements alone.
My advice would be to try and elaborate on your statements a bit more.
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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2012, 01:46:24 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

+1
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2012, 02:06:38 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.


All you have posted are your own assertions.  You have not shown that you actually understand what other people have written or said; you have just posted a list of names and claimed that your words are the "culmination of geniuses".  Claiming to be such a "culmination" by the way can be interpreted as claiming to be superior to others, by the way.

 What work of, for example, C.S. Lewis have you read and how do you know that you really understand what he wrote please? 

It is not a "fact" that others will not "win".  If you do not really take part in an argument but just insist that you are right and others are wrong then there is nothing to be "won"; you will not have actually engaged in any sort of proving of your particular ideas.  You haven't shown what "arguments" you are using and from the posts that you have made here and on other sites, there haven't been any arguments or reasoning, just you making statements and not considering any challenges or disagreements.



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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2012, 02:36:55 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?
theological breakthrough!!!!!
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2012, 03:45:14 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

Many years Peter!
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2012, 08:19:40 PM »

I think it would be nice if we returned to the original topic, since it is a rather interesting one IMO
The original topic, AISI, is NOT the problem of suffering. The original topic is just a bunch of rhetoric SavedByChrist regurgitated here in an effort to boast of his "exploits" on another forum. As to the subject matter of the OP, I doubt that SavedByChrist really understands anything of it.
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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2012, 08:23:22 PM »

Problem of Suffering Refuted, Permanently Problem of Suffering only exists for "atheism", making "atheism" false.

Now I wrote this at the un-Biblical man indoctrined ran, "Christian"Forums.com, however after being banned they took I assume almost all my post down, so I'm posting here.


Refuting the “problems of suffering” in relation to God, inventing Irrefutable Problem of suffering for “atheism”

Lets knock this out the park fast and quick, after Newtown shootings my OCD spiked and I got intrusive thoughts, so I went into debates in my head refuting the problem of suffering, and in my head I actually refuted it in a new manner.


So lets refute the “problem of suffering”
When I say God, I mean The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.(for OCD’s sake)
1, God has no obligation to end suffering/evil.
2, Without suffering therefore is no evil, and the choice to do evil must exist for free will, and free will must exist in order for human beings with consciousness to exist.
3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)
4, God must allow suffering to prevent further suffering, why? If a human has no experienced suffering, they(when they get to Heaven) will be like Adam, Eve and The Angels, they can sin, thus starting sin and suffering all over again, sending themselves to Hell, to solve this, God would allow the human to suffer(best to suffer a lot, not to sound bad but if you think and continue reading(before I get slandered) why? So that when they get to Heaven /New Earth they do not sin. After experiencing Heaven then looking back, no way anyone would go back to their old ways(Even I Born Again am incapable of going back to my old ways because of my experience with Jesus Christ(God) on this earth, imagine in Heaven? No way I’d even sin and I’d still have my free will. Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.
5, God already choose a moment in time when He will return. Why doesn’t He end suffering now? Well why not 1000 years ago? Here’s a few reasons,

1, Not according to plan
2, Wants to create a lot of beings as most likely in Heaven new beings will not be created and suffering prevents us from sinning in Heaven(4)

3, He wanted you to exist(which means in order to exist you’d have to suffer, and added with 4 that secures you for eternity)

4,
6, Jesus Christ(God Himself) didn’t deserve to die, yet humanity killed Him for no deserving reason, only because He is Perfect. And He went through The suffering, so God isn’t lavishing while we suffer, He suffered and suffers(He feels our pain) with us, but even He was He is still perfect.

7, Without ability to lack good(evil), free will cannot exist therefore consciousness/minds cannot exist, therefore we wouldn’t exist.

8, humanity causes it’s own suffering. And it’s temporary, those who go to Heaven with Jesus Christ will be there for eternity, seems long, but fair.

9, God must end all suffering at once(everyone suffers by the way one way or the other), ending some isn’t fair, etc, God is fair, therefore ends either none or all suffering at once, He is all graceful and merciful therefore ends all suffering at once, which is basically The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


With that proven, the problem of suffering against God is nonexistent, There’s no problem of suffering. There’s the solution of suffering, which is, prevents future suffering and is only temporary.

Now introducing the problem of suffering for “naturalism”/”atheism”

Suffering exists, and is a wrong, wrong means an improper function, we’re not supposed to function like this, therefore there has to be a solution to this improper function, under “naturalism” there is no solution, improper functions have solutions as returning to the original(or better) state is the proper function. “naturalism” is incapable of morally and emotionally bringing one to the natural/normal/proper function, therefore “naturalism” is false. God can do this, therefore God must necessarily exist. If a theory for a producer cannot bring back it’s production to the original state, then that isn’t the producer, as the producer can create the original state, therefore return it to it’s original state.

Which reminds me, Death also disproves “naturalism”, if “naturalism” were true then nature would be capable of Resurrecting someone from the dead just like starting life, according to a lot of “naturalist” this is impossible, so those that hold to that view lose it.

2, under “naturalism” free will wouldn’t exist, therefore good nor evil would exist, nor even consciousness.

Therefore “naturalism” is false and The Problem of Suffering and Evil is only for “atheism”

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is Irrefutable and has no problems, while “naturalism” is totally refuteable and has many problems, which means God existing is more probable than “naturalism” so belief can only go to God, saying or believing otherwise is a delusion.

But wait, there’s more! God must Necessarily exist and “naturalism” cannot exist, therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Factually Exists and “naturalism” is Factually false.

So yes the anger my OCD and intrusive thoughts enraged in me caused me to further kill “naturalism”

God Bless those who are mourning over the deaths of those innocent children, they will see them again one day, and that’s not just a guarantee but a fact. The More I think about it, the more “naturalism” cannot be true.

Life doesn’t end at the grave, so don’t be afraid, God allows suffering for good reason, so there won’t be anymore suffering. Also one more argument that is a fact, God is all fair, therefore those who say “where was God during 9/11 and Sandy Hook/Newtown.?” , God is all fair, so in order for God to have prevented those events, He would have to prevent all evil events, which would basically mean Jesus Christ Second Coming. The pain of those who suffered will be no more. Remember this, God allows suffering, but does not cause it. He is All Good therefore causes no unrighteous suffering and since all good will prevent further suffering, in order to do that suffering needs to be allowed, so when Heaven comes no one rebels again.

Added with the fact that humanity can't be hypocrites, here's one exposure. we can if we all wanted to make sure everyone is fed, people say, why didn't God feed the starving in Africa? I cite Matthew 7:5, you hypocrite! you can easily feed people in Africa. God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) commands us to give to the poor, this offers us Repentance, people say God is everywhere, why doesn't He help? Because humans are everywhere too, remember Genesis, God put us in charge of the earth, we're supposed to be homekeepers, make sure God's Creation is good and we don't, God already gave the food, time to share it. we(including me, I'm not going to be hypocritical as that would be pharisee like) don't do enough, then we blame God when He provided it all and answers prayers. with sin, stupidity, laziness, greed, etc the things we whin about will never be fixed, The Prayers been answered? God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) says Hello! He's provided the food and The Bible, and sustains us, and He will end all suffering one day, want suffering to go away sooner? Do something!

Your God is kind of disturbing.
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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2012, 10:53:37 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 10:54:17 PM by SavedByChrist94 » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 11:29:24 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.
Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.
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« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2012, 11:31:16 PM »

I can't decide if SavedByChrist94 or WPM is my favorite poster.
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« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2012, 11:36:16 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.
Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

+2!
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2012, 02:00:14 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

This coming from an Odox? What were those ecumenical debates councils about? What guided the decisions of those councils?

To put it another way in your own language, false dichotomy.
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

This coming from an Odox? What were those ecumenical debates councils about? What guided the decisions of those councils?

To put it another way in your own language, false dichotomy.
Not in the context of the discussion I'm having with SBC94. Wink
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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2012, 07:59:30 PM »

Dear SbC94

If I may pursue a short tactical rabbit trail with you:

Quote
To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

This sort of thing as much as anything is making it difficult for you to be heard…or to hear, for that matter.

As a forensic exercise it is possible to win or lose debates, but convincing someone of of something, especially of those things that touch upon the faith, is not usually possible in a forensic contest. Losers whose egos are entangled go away lick their wounds gather new ammo and when they feel confident … or sufficiently goaded, they return.

May I suggest ceasing altogether with trying to "win" anything with respect to debate.  To win a brother who errs requires a different strategy altogether…you have to take him seriously, and not just paint him as a target to be hit or missed. You must invest in a relationship of sorts. You must be open to his questions and criticisms and an honest "I don't know/understand myself" will go a long way in establishing your integrity as someone more interested in the other person than yourself. Next, be very reticent in "establishing" your own authority. As much as possible where a question of what the Church teaches or believes comes up always point outside yourself, first to Saints and Fathers and to priests and bishops…living ones…contactable ones…because these…not us have the ordaining grace of the Holy Spirit to teach and speak for the Church. Whether or not they always do well in this regard is another question…so choose your points of reference with care…but still choose them point back to teachers of the Church so whoever you are engaged with doesn't just have to take your word for this that or the other, but can talk to someone in the Church who has some authority to speak and can either verify, refine, or refute what you've said.  If they consistently back up what you say, then the perception of the authenticity of your opinion as expressive of the Orthodox faith grows, and where you are refuted, you have a further chance to grow and learn in humility.

The problem with "debate" is that concerning the faith, the point is to win souls, not arguments, then there is little subtly to it, for by it's very nature it puts the other guy in a defensive "prove your position" posture. Everything you say is viewed tactically before it's truthfulness is ever, if ever, considered.  It's all darts trying to get over the wall…all aimed at making them "lose".  All that accomplishes is to make people turtle until the "treat" goes away..unless of course, you've underestimated your opponent…and it is suddenly you looking foolish and having to turtle…until you've had some time to rearm and refine your arguments so that you are sure to "win" the next time.  This tactic rarely if ever works…and it can flip on you and embarrass you in a heartbeat with the wrong opponent (either they overmaster you…or you so offend them…they turn off even further from anything you have to say)

In order to confront people with the "Truth" so that it digs and grips and convicts, like St. Stephen…It helps to be so deeply steeped in the prayer and the Holy Spirit that every word is practically a "made without hands" icon in and of itself…that the Holy Spirit speaks in and through you with vast experiential authority.  And authority is precisely what you lack…I don't mean the authority of permission…but rather the authority of apostolic level experience and encounter with Christ. You are no font of direct encounter with Christ like the presence of a living saint…perhaps one day, God willing, but not yet…and neither are most of us. Hence we refer back to those who have greater wisdom and authority than ourselves. That said, if you ever do find yourself speaking with a similar depth of authority as did St. Stephen, it is likely that soon thereafter you will have opportunity to share in the fruits of such a divine conversation, when the men whose hearts you've pricked try to silence the voice of God through you with stones…or reasonable approximations thereof.

If you want to develop and refine a encounter style for "winning" souls then let me suggest a very ancient and indeed apostolic one. Stop trying to conquer your opponent…and go fishing instead. Present the faith as faithfully as you can and yourself as honestly as you are able…and draw them in…lead them to a place where they are willing to "taste and see".  From that point on, it is up to God…not you to set the hook.

And I do not say this idly…I know someone, a frequent poster on Christian forums of one sort or another for several years. Once he discovered fishing over debating he has since seen at least 11 people to date that he knows of become Orthodox through his conversations with them…and the bulk of it was point them to saints, living saints of the present and recent past, and getting them to a place they were willing to visit a Divine Liturgy and talk to a priest.

Oh..one last point with the fishing metaphor…it's not like buck hunting, you don't pick the one you decide to go after and "convince" of the truth. You don't know who is or who is not ready to hear…you put your line/net in the water and wait for the one or ones whom the Lord brings to you.
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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »

I can't wait till SBC94 gets access to the private fora  Shocked
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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2013, 06:16:50 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.
Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2013, 06:20:55 PM »

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness. Tongue Roll Eyes

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.
Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.
Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.
No, it's not that simple. You don't have to win debates to win their souls, especially when you make an ass of yourself as you did at both AtheistForums.com and AtheistForums.org.
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