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Author Topic: Have we become like this unintentionally maybe?  (Read 1829 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« on: December 25, 2012, 06:23:45 AM »

Mat 23:15    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2012, 06:36:25 AM »

In what way?
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2012, 10:58:55 AM »

In many ways.  I think about that whole series of verses often.
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2012, 11:33:02 AM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 01:10:21 AM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool

I'm not ignoring you on this one.  I just need time to gather my thoughts.  I battle with these words often. My experience with Orthodoxy over the past 18 years has left me less sure of a "visible" Church than when I was a Lutheran.  There really does not seem to be one (1) Orthodox Church as much as a loose conglomeration of a dozen or more religious organizations that banter the word "canonical" around like it actually means anything anymore.  I find this particularly true here in the United States, where some of the so called "Orthodox" Churches are more liberal than the more conservative Protestant denominations, and certainly more liberal than Old Catholics.  I wonder if some of the converts in these congregations would have been better served in their old Churches.  Even some of the traditional parishes have no life.  The Scriptures give many accounts of what will be asked and what will be expected on the final Judgment.  Fasting does not even come up.  Yet, the first question asked during confession, at least in my Church, is "did you fast".  How amazed I would be if the first question would be "did you perform any acts of charity this week", or "since we are in a penitential season, have you increased your study of Scripture and increased your alms".  White washed sepulchres, washing the outside of the cup rather than the inside, putting heavy burdens on men and doing nothing to help them carry them, and all that.  It really seems that we have become the new Jews.  Perhaps Christ is near to his second coming.
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 01:22:05 AM »

Few people set out intentionally with the goal to become hypocrites/sinners.
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 01:59:42 AM »

Mat 23:15    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
I don't know, have you?
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 02:06:25 AM »

Mat 23:15    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees thread resurrecters, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea resurrect threads to win one proselyte to satisfy your own ego, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves the thread is resurrected, it quickly becomes dead once again.
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool

I'm not ignoring you on this one.  I just need time to gather my thoughts.  I battle with these words often. My experience with Orthodoxy over the past 18 years has left me less sure of a "visible" Church than when I was a Lutheran.  There really does not seem to be one (1) Orthodox Church as much as a loose conglomeration of a dozen or more religious organizations that banter the word "canonical" around like it actually means anything anymore.  I find this particularly true here in the United States, where some of the so called "Orthodox" Churches are more liberal than the more conservative Protestant denominations, and certainly more liberal than Old Catholics.  I wonder if some of the converts in these congregations would have been better served in their old Churches.  Even some of the traditional parishes have no life.  The Scriptures give many accounts of what will be asked and what will be expected on the final Judgment.  Fasting does not even come up.  Yet, the first question asked during confession, at least in my Church, is "did you fast".  How amazed I would be if the first question would be "did you perform any acts of charity this week", or "since we are in a penitential season, have you increased your study of Scripture and increased your alms".  White washed sepulchres, washing the outside of the cup rather than the inside, putting heavy burdens on men and doing nothing to help them carry them, and all that.  It really seems that we have become the new Jews.  Perhaps Christ is near to his second coming.
I agree: you can try to fast for Advent, (even when the Church you are in has no requirement whatsoever for it), but if you snap at your wife, children, inlaws, etc. more often than usual, your fast is a failure. Such was my experience this year...  Embarrassed I should just have fasted from anger instead.
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 12:43:59 PM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool

I'm not ignoring you on this one.  I just need time to gather my thoughts.  I battle with these words often. My experience with Orthodoxy over the past 18 years has left me less sure of a "visible" Church than when I was a Lutheran.  There really does not seem to be one (1) Orthodox Church as much as a loose conglomeration of a dozen or more religious organizations that banter the word "canonical" around like it actually means anything anymore.  I find this particularly true here in the United States, where some of the so called "Orthodox" Churches are more liberal than the more conservative Protestant denominations, and certainly more liberal than Old Catholics.  I wonder if some of the converts in these congregations would have been better served in their old Churches.  Even some of the traditional parishes have no life.  The Scriptures give many accounts of what will be asked and what will be expected on the final Judgment.  Fasting does not even come up.  Yet, the first question asked during confession, at least in my Church, is "did you fast".  How amazed I would be if the first question would be "did you perform any acts of charity this week", or "since we are in a penitential season, have you increased your study of Scripture and increased your alms".  White washed sepulchres, washing the outside of the cup rather than the inside, putting heavy burdens on men and doing nothing to help them carry them, and all that.  It really seems that we have become the new Jews.  Perhaps Christ is near to his second coming.
I agree: you can try to fast for Advent, (even when the Church you are in has no requirement whatsoever for it), but if you snap at your wife, children, inlaws, etc. more often than usual, your fast is a failure. Such was my experience this year...  Embarrassed I should just have fasted from anger instead.

Fasting is a departure form a bodily norm.  It certainly can have that effect on someone.  I have gotten better with it over the last year, but before I would get really testy during the fast because let's face it, vegetarianism is not part of our diet in most Western countries.  We are an industrialized society, not agrarian.  Meat and cheese is everywhere and on everything you can eat on a regular basis.  Just having to go through the extra effort of going somewhere with friends and having to hold everyone up because you have to go somewhere that caters to your odd diet.  It's stressful when the fast should be something that helps us spiritually.  When we get testy over it I think it defeats the purpose.

It would be nice if we could eat spam then give the extra money what would have gone towards buying shrimp to the poor.  Or, instead of going to a fancy place that caters to vegetarians we could just go to crackdonalds. 

To me, the fast is nothing more than an exercise in obedience to my priest, or at the very least it helps me with weight loss.  There is nothing spiritual about it to me.  I don't like linking God with stress and irritable bowels.
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 03:02:25 PM »

Could someone summarize what we're complaining about in this thread? Bullet points would help me a lot. Thanks.
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 03:07:29 PM »

Could someone summarize what we're complaining about in this thread? Bullet points would help me a lot. Thanks.

-Anything
-Everything
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 03:24:58 PM »

Could someone summarize what we're complaining about in this thread? Bullet points would help me a lot. Thanks.

Making an observation is not necessarily complaining. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 03:27:18 PM »

Could someone summarize what we're complaining about in this thread? Bullet points would help me a lot. Thanks.

Making an observation is not necessarily complaining. 

That's what I keep trying to tell people, but they don't believe me.
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 04:08:37 PM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool

I'm not ignoring you on this one.  I just need time to gather my thoughts.  I battle with these words often. My experience with Orthodoxy over the past 18 years has left me less sure of a "visible" Church than when I was a Lutheran.  There really does not seem to be one (1) Orthodox Church as much as a loose conglomeration of a dozen or more religious organizations that banter the word "canonical" around like it actually means anything anymore.  I find this particularly true here in the United States, where some of the so called "Orthodox" Churches are more liberal than the more conservative Protestant denominations, and certainly more liberal than Old Catholics.  I wonder if some of the converts in these congregations would have been better served in their old Churches.  Even some of the traditional parishes have no life.  The Scriptures give many accounts of what will be asked and what will be expected on the final Judgment.  Fasting does not even come up.  Yet, the first question asked during confession, at least in my Church, is "did you fast".  How amazed I would be if the first question would be "did you perform any acts of charity this week", or "since we are in a penitential season, have you increased your study of Scripture and increased your alms".  White washed sepulchres, washing the outside of the cup rather than the inside, putting heavy burdens on men and doing nothing to help them carry them, and all that.  It really seems that we have become the new Jews.  Perhaps Christ is near to his second coming.

Ahhh, from what I understand, your observations are much more likely to happen in a "traditional" and OW area. At least from nearly every cradle I've spoken with.

Imagine if your Priest started with the question: "Do you practice and think about preparing to kill another? Do you spend money on ways to more effectively kill those people you believe may deserve it in the future?"

I really enjoy and appreciate these more pensive posts of yours. I am just saying though.
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 04:57:07 PM »

But we do discuss these things, and have on several occasions.  He seems quite content that I do not practice to kill those that "may deserve it" in the future, but those whose actions may force me to kill them before they kill me, and he has no problem with this.  As a Serb who grew up and lived through the civil wars of the '90's, and who's Grandfather fought with Chetniks against my relatives, he has a different way of seeing things than the average Eurowussy. So did the previous Priest who was called "Captain" by some of the Chetniks that knew him during the war.  I would far rather discuss these matters than the dubious value of fasting.  We have also discussed the fact that, in spite of our violent nature, we Germans can stop killing each other long enough to grow food, so fasting is not part of our culture.  In fact, we are good enough at it that even the Russians imported us to grow food for them under one of their German Czarinas (but that may have been because we can also stay sober enough to grow food). Interestingly, I have found that a Priest's view on fasting (and allowances made for those that are not as good at it as perhaps they should be) is more a factor of whether or not they have done anything in life other than be a Priest.  My current Priest is the most strict that I have ever had on fasting, and he is the only one who has not held secular employment that I am aware of.  He is, however, rather skilled at working with metal and wood, and I have had a chance to admire some of his handiwork, but I digress.



Ahhh, from what I understand, your observations are much more likely to happen in a "traditional" and OW area. At least from nearly every cradle I've spoken with.

Imagine if your Priest started with the question: "Do you practice and think about preparing to kill another? Do you spend money on ways to more effectively kill those people you believe may deserve it in the future?"

I really enjoy and appreciate these more pensive posts of yours. I am just saying though.

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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 06:29:00 PM »

Mat 23:15    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees thread resurrecters, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea resurrect threads to win one proselyte to satisfy your own ego, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves the thread is resurrected, it quickly becomes dead once again.

That's cute, but this thread only started yesterday. Still funny though.  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2012, 07:01:14 PM »

I think that in some ways and in some parishes, we indeed probably have become like that--I have no doubt about it. But on the other hand, not all of us have become like that, and that is still no good reason to leave the Church but rather to try to fix the Church. This is good because it causes us to reflect and be self-conscious of ourselves--we are the true Church of God, but are we defiling it by becoming like the Pharisees? That's the burden we need to each work out and look out for--but not run away from at the moment it comes up, because that dilemma will ALWAYS come up no matter where you are.
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 03:22:03 PM »

I think that in some ways and in some parishes, we indeed probably have become like that--I have no doubt about it. But on the other hand, not all of us have become like that, and that is still no good reason to leave the Church but rather to try to fix the Church. This is good because it causes us to reflect and be self-conscious of ourselves--we are the true Church of God, but are we defiling it by becoming like the Pharisees? That's the burden we need to each work out and look out for--but not run away from at the moment it comes up, because that dilemma will ALWAYS come up no matter where you are.

We don't need to fix the Church - we "only" need to fix ourselves. That should keep us busy for awhile.
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 03:25:10 PM »

That's cute, but this thread only started yesterday. Still funny though.  Grin

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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2012, 04:17:07 PM »

But we do discuss these things, and have on several occasions.  He seems quite content that I do not practice to kill those that "may deserve it" in the future, but those whose actions may force me to kill them before they kill me, and he has no problem with this.  As a Serb who grew up and lived through the civil wars of the '90's, and who's Grandfather fought with Chetniks against my relatives, he has a different way of seeing things than the average Eurowussy. So did the previous Priest who was called "Captain" by some of the Chetniks that knew him during the war.  I would far rather discuss these matters than the dubious value of fasting.  We have also discussed the fact that, in spite of our violent nature, we Germans can stop killing each other long enough to grow food, so fasting is not part of our culture.  In fact, we are good enough at it that even the Russians imported us to grow food for them under one of their German Czarinas (but that may have been because we can also stay sober enough to grow food). Interestingly, I have found that a Priest's view on fasting (and allowances made for those that are not as good at it as perhaps they should be) is more a factor of whether or not they have done anything in life other than be a Priest.  My current Priest is the most strict that I have ever had on fasting, and he is the only one who has not held secular employment that I am aware of.  He is, however, rather skilled at working with metal and wood, and I have had a chance to admire some of his handiwork, but I digress.



Ahhh, from what I understand, your observations are much more likely to happen in a "traditional" and OW area. At least from nearly every cradle I've spoken with.

Imagine if your Priest started with the question: "Do you practice and think about preparing to kill another? Do you spend money on ways to more effectively kill those people you believe may deserve it in the future?"

I really enjoy and appreciate these more pensive posts of yours. I am just saying though.



Dafuer bedanke ich mich bei meinem sehr geerhten Herrn.

I think that means thanks.
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 04:31:01 PM »

Could someone summarize what we're complaining about in this thread? Bullet points would help me a lot. Thanks.

Making an observation is not necessarily complaining. 

That's what I keep trying to tell people, but they don't believe me.

Was that a complaint or an observation?

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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 06:55:32 PM »


Dafuer bedanke ich mich bei meinem sehr geerhten Herrn.

I think that means thanks.

Yes, in a somewhat poetic manner.  Are you sure the second to the last word is not "geehrter"?
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 09:21:48 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 10:51:06 PM »


Dafuer bedanke ich mich bei meinem sehr geerhten Herrn.

I think that means thanks.

Yes, in a somewhat poetic manner.  Are you sure the second to the last word is not "geehrter"?

Punch, I was joshing. They tell me I speak all types of German, although I mostly just read it anymore and listen to it sung in a manner that I couldn't understand even if I were a native speaker.

Actually bedanken isn't as "archaic" or poetic sounding in Southern Germany and Austria. But I was joking around with that notion of it being a bit altmodish (old-fashioned) or hochnaesig (~hoity-toity) along the insane sehr geerhter Herr business. No one I knew would say such a thing with a straight face. Heck, we rarely spoke anything resembling the Standard Language.

I was sorta joking about the perceived length is takes to say something in German versus English and was trying to use the longest simple way to say thanks. I should've tossed some modal particles in.

But to answer your question.

I wish I could say jaein, but it is correct.

Dative declension of an adjective proceeded by an EIN-word or whatever they call it in English effectively establishes the case "enough" of the word so the following modifiers are declined with n.

mein -> meinem indicates the dative, so any modifier after that would take the n declension.

FWIW, I dunno how much German you have but the genitive case is pretty much going the way of the wind save in set phrases especially outside the horrific confines of Northern Germany, being replaced by the dative case, along with other classical syntactic elements of the language (post "prepositions" for example).

Adding the n to the dative declension of Herr is a bit odd anymore as well.

But I could be completely wrong and for some reason sehr geehrter Herr doesn't follow this declension pattern due to some odd loophole for it being such a stock phrase rarely used in the dative thus carrying an odd declension and I am too lazy to look that up. But to my ears and understanding of Standard German grammar, this is the correct usage.

Anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I hope the above was helpful!

EDIT: My computer screen is on the blink so I give up. I hope this above is correct I remember writing it.

EDIT: Dunno know if I put in the above but almost always the adjective endings in the dative are going to be en. I was trying to give a brief "reason" for why it is.
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2012, 10:58:17 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

Example 1: His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I

Does he bully?  Not that I know of.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 2: His Holiness Patriarch Cyrill of Russia

Does he bully?  I don't know; however, I don't think so.
Does he have wealth?  Yes.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  By civil courts (e.g. Pussy Riot case).  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 3: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA

Does he bully?  I don't believe so.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 02:23:09 PM »

Could someone give specifics?  Cool

I'm not ignoring you on this one.  I just need time to gather my thoughts.  I battle with these words often. My experience with Orthodoxy over the past 18 years has left me less sure of a "visible" Church than when I was a Lutheran.  There really does not seem to be one (1) Orthodox Church as much as a loose conglomeration of a dozen or more religious organizations that banter the word "canonical" around like it actually means anything anymore.  I find this particularly true here in the United States, where some of the so called "Orthodox" Churches are more liberal than the more conservative Protestant denominations, and certainly more liberal than Old Catholics.  I wonder if some of the converts in these congregations would have been better served in their old Churches.  Even some of the traditional parishes have no life.  The Scriptures give many accounts of what will be asked and what will be expected on the final Judgment.  Fasting does not even come up.  Yet, the first question asked during confession, at least in my Church, is "did you fast".  How amazed I would be if the first question would be "did you perform any acts of charity this week", or "since we are in a penitential season, have you increased your study of Scripture and increased your alms".  White washed sepulchres, washing the outside of the cup rather than the inside, putting heavy burdens on men and doing nothing to help them carry them, and all that.  It really seems that we have become the new Jews.  Perhaps Christ is near to his second coming.

I am sure he is. But I really don't like the idea of playing with scenarios like many people do. If he comes, he is welcome. If he doesn't then, maybe he is not ready yet.
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 02:29:01 PM »

I think that in some ways and in some parishes, we indeed probably have become like that--I have no doubt about it. But on the other hand, not all of us have become like that, and that is still no good reason to leave the Church but rather to try to fix the Church. This is good because it causes us to reflect and be self-conscious of ourselves--we are the true Church of God, but are we defiling it by becoming like the Pharisees? That's the burden we need to each work out and look out for--but not run away from at the moment it comes up, because that dilemma will ALWAYS come up no matter where you are.

We don't need to fix the Church - we "only" need to fix ourselves. That should keep us busy for awhile.

Indeed. We need to fix ourselves. When we do that. The fixing of the church will just be the result of our own fixing. Corrections must be done from within towards out. Not the other way around.
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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2012, 02:34:59 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.



When my sister baptized her best friends daughter, the priest (What a small world), happened to be my moms friends. He couldn't wait to get his money at the end. He asked for 20.00 euro upfront. And you know what. His house according to my mom,  is like a museum. The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser. the funny thing is, out of all our priest friends. This guy was the richest, and yet the only ones that did anything for the community and the poor. were the poorest of them. Who barely had 2.000 a month.
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2012, 02:36:25 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

Example 1: His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I

Does he bully?  Not that I know of.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 2: His Holiness Patriarch Cyrill of Russia

Does he bully?  I don't know; however, I don't think so.
Does he have wealth?  Yes.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  By civil courts (e.g. Pussy Riot case).  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 3: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA

Does he bully?  I don't believe so.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

do you see them behind closed doors though.
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« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2012, 03:08:48 PM »

His house according to my mom,  is like a museum. The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2012, 03:17:52 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

Example 1: His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I

Does he bully?  Not that I know of.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 2: His Holiness Patriarch Cyrill of Russia

Does he bully?  I don't know; however, I don't think so.
Does he have wealth?  Yes.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  By civil courts (e.g. Pussy Riot case).  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 3: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA

Does he bully?  I don't believe so.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

do you see them behind closed doors though.

It's the public actions that count.  Jesus was crucified in public. 

One of the OCA bishops sent inappropriate text messages to a young woman.  He was caught and appropriately punished.
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« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »

The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser.

Wow, that must be some expensive toilet paper he has! Like wiping your bottom with million euro bills?
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2012, 03:26:23 PM »

Quote
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. (Matthew 23:2-4 ESV)

Quote
They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. (Matthew 23:5-7 ESV)

Quote
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. (Matthew 23:15 ESV)

Quote
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. (Matthew 23:23 ESV)

Quote
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. (Matthew 23:25 ESV)

Quote
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:27-28 ESV)

I can only speak to my experience, an admittedly limited experience. I would say the above verses speak to a culture that exists within the Church, although I wouldn't say it is the predominate culture.  I do my best to avoid bishops and high ranking priests. I especially avoid serving during hierarchical services.  I do those things because in my experience this is where that sort of culture tends to be most prevalent. With that said, I probably wouldn't act much differently if I was in their position.  Power corrupts.
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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2012, 03:42:54 PM »

The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser.

Wow, that must be some expensive toilet paper he has! Like wiping your bottom with million euro bills?

I wipe with .999 fine platinum bars, there a SOB to flush though
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2012, 04:03:01 PM »

The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser.

Wow, that must be some expensive toilet paper he has! Like wiping your bottom with million euro bills?

I wipe with .999 fine platinum bars, there a SOB to flush though

I hate when that happens.
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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2012, 04:12:43 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.



When my sister baptized her best friends daughter, the priest (What a small world), happened to be my moms friends. He couldn't wait to get his money at the end. He asked for 20.00 euro upfront. And you know what. His house according to my mom,  is like a museum. The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser. the funny thing is, out of all our priest friends. This guy was the richest, and yet the only ones that did anything for the community and the poor. were the poorest of them. Who barely had 2.000 a month.

And yet I personally know of a bishop who read the riot act to one of his priests for asking for money for baptisms. And that priest didn't last long in the diocese either.
What do we learn from this?
Perhaps that there are good and bad people and priests and hierarchs, some folks are selfless and humble, some rich and greedy.
Should that surprise anyone?
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2012, 04:15:55 PM »


FWIW, I dunno how much German you have but the genitive case is pretty much going the way of the wind save in set phrases especially outside the horrific confines of Northern Germany, being replaced by the dative case, along with other classical syntactic elements of the language (post "prepositions" for example).


It was pretty much all that I spoke until I entered Kindergarten.  Since the US was not as politically correct in the '60's, they did not have ESL and kiss the behind of every immigrant that floated ashore, so I had to learn English rather quickly.  I am familiar with hearing the Baltic dialect that my mother and grandmother spoke, both being from Rostock.  The times that I went to Germany, we ended up in the Black Forrest where my family was later relocated, and I am convinced that what they speak is not German.  In any case, I don't speak it any more, but I did recognize some of that phrase from addressing letters to my grandmother when she was still alive.  It also does not help that all my German Bibles still use Fraktur and a syntax that is probably no longer used over there (at least since WWII).
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« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2012, 05:10:50 PM »

The cheapest things he has are worth 1.000.000 euro. And she knows that because she is an antique appraiser.

Wow, that must be some expensive toilet paper he has! Like wiping your bottom with million euro bills?

I wipe with .999 fine platinum bars, there a SOB to flush though

I hate when that happens.

You people!  We were born with a left hand for a reason!  What a waste of good metals.  If you have to be a priss and use paper, there's plenty of fiat currency floating around.  Albeit, I only use bank notes to clean furnace ignitors.  I've never been a man who's too good for his own left hand.
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« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2012, 09:47:48 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

Example 1: His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I

Does he bully?  Not that I know of.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 2: His Holiness Patriarch Cyrill of Russia

Does he bully?  I don't know; however, I don't think so.
Does he have wealth?  Yes.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  By civil courts (e.g. Pussy Riot case).  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 3: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA

Does he bully?  I don't believe so.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

do you see them behind closed doors though.

Holding people guilty for things you imagine they do has to be a form of insanity at the least.
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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2012, 10:45:05 PM »


[/quote]

It's the public actions that count. 
[/quote]

So, if I kiss my priest's hand every time I see him in public. I am a good christian, even if I wished him ill in my heart for instance?
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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2012, 10:49:47 PM »

Quote

It's the public actions that count.  

So, if I kiss my priest's hand every time I see him in public. I am a good christian, even if I wished him ill in my heart for instance?

From what we could see of you, yes. we coudl not know what is within your heart, only how you act and carry yourself
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« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2012, 10:51:02 PM »

The pharisees were the religious leaders of the time.

Who are the religious leaders of our time?   Do they bully?  Do they often have wealth?   Are those who speak against them strung out, punished, banished, excommunicated?

It's a very important question in this context.  To examine the religious leaders one needs to determine if their behavior is the same as the pharisees.

Example 1: His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I

Does he bully?  Not that I know of.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 2: His Holiness Patriarch Cyrill of Russia

Does he bully?  I don't know; however, I don't think so.
Does he have wealth?  Yes.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  By civil courts (e.g. Pussy Riot case).  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

Example 3: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA

Does he bully?  I don't believe so.
Does he have wealth?  No.
Do those who speak against him strung out?  No.  punished?  No.  banished?  No.  Excommunicated?  No.

do you see them behind closed doors though.

Holding people guilty for things you imagine they do has to be a form of insanity at the least.


Ok. I don't hold them Guilty. But why are people too quick to defend their innocence, when the only thing they know is the outward behaviour in church. I personally don't hold anyone guilty. But I am not going to claim that they are angels, either.
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« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2012, 10:54:37 PM »

Quote

It's the public actions that count.  

So, if I kiss my priest's hand every time I see him in public. I am a good christian, even if I wished him ill in my heart for instance?

From what we could see of you, yes. we coudl not know what is within your heart, only how you act and carry yourself

My behaviour, or anyone's behaviour for that matter, is not always an expression of our true self. And our true self in this world full of judgement, doesn't always have an expression. We only reveal to others as much as they can handle. Sometimes less. But never more.
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« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2012, 10:58:54 PM »

Quote

It's the public actions that count.  

So, if I kiss my priest's hand every time I see him in public. I am a good christian, even if I wished him ill in my heart for instance?

From what we could see of you, yes. we coudl not know what is within your heart, only how you act and carry yourself

My behaviour, or anyone's behaviour for that matter, is not always an expression of our true self. And our true self in this world full of judgement, doesn't always have an expression. We only reveal to others as much as they can handle. Sometimes less. But never more.

I will conceed that point, however, what right do we have to guess at their inner motives, when all we have to judge off of is their behaviour on the outside? To use your point, why are you so eager to try and find fault in them, when all we know is their behaviour in church.

As as a response, because of the ideal of innocent until proven guilty, aka assume the best of people, that is why we are quick to defend their innocence, if all we know about people is their good side.
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