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Author Topic: Who is content as an Eastern Catholic?  (Read 3661 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tony
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 12:14:24 PM »

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 01:53:02 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 02:08:14 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

A better question would be: "What happened to the iconostasis?"
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 02:16:00 PM »

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

It's a Roman Catholic church in Biala Podlaska (traditionally Orthodox town, fortunately there still 2 Orthodox parishes). The priest is the parson of the unique neo-unite parish in the world (don't cut the u-word as it's official name, please) in Kostomloty (a village in Podlachia, there is also an Orthodox parish) - it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 

I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »

That is interesting. I never knew they had Russian Catholic parishes in Poland. Thank you for the information.

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

It's a Roman Catholic church in Biala Podlaska (traditionally Orthodox town, fortunately there still 2 Orthodox parishes). The priest is the parson of the unique neo-unite parish in the world (don't cut the u-word as it's official name, please) in Kostomloty (a village in Podlachia, there is also an Orthodox parish) - it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 

I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2012, 03:08:25 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2012, 03:18:56 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".

Of course, you are right. I've just shortened my thoughts. The whole names are Ukrainian-byzantine rite, neo-unite byzantine rite, Romania- byzantine rite etc. (at least in Polish, I believe in Ukrainian too). But I think (if I'm mistaken, please correct me) that there is a difference between Roman Church (that means with latin rite) and Catholic Church (all sui juris Churches, Roman, Greek Catholic etc.). And usually Roman Catholic who say Catholic Church mean Roman rite and forget about Eastern Catholics. At least, that's terminology used in Polish.
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2012, 03:33:48 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".

Would it be correct to say Ruthenian rite? Their liturgical books differ from the vulgate of the Byzantine liturgical books.
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2012, 03:35:09 PM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.

No state organs of Orthodox countries have organized forced conversions of other people. In contrast to that, catholic Empires throughout the history have along with the Vatican forced many people to accept Roman Catholicism by means of brutal force.

The colonial European powers catholicized Latin-America and Serbian territories west from the river of Drina, etc. Such things were not organized by Orthodox nations. Until the year 1054 also Western-Europa was confessing the same faith, as has been persevered by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2012, 03:38:31 PM »

No state organs of Orthodox countries have organized forced conversions of other people. In contrast to that, catholic Empires throughout the history have along with the Vatican forced many people to accept Roman Catholicism by means of brutal force.

1875
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2012, 03:40:34 PM »

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?

Hello friend,

I think that if we take history into consideration, we will notice that the forefathers of Eastern-Catholics first recognized the pope and subsequently gradually were alienated from Orthodoxy. This was surely the case on the ethnic territories of Serbs (the Balkans).
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 03:51:30 PM »

1875

I am not sure to what you are referring exactly. However, from an objective perspective one cannot claim that Orthodox states have conducted the same policy of "Convert or Die" as had been done by Western-European countries which organized the biological exterminations of the entire native populations of overseas destinations as well as occupied Orthodox countries which they submitted to assimilation, germanization and forced conversions into Catholicism. 
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2012, 03:52:54 PM »

Russian tsars banned Eastern Catholicism (just like Polish kings had banned Eastern Orthodoxy).
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2012, 04:06:52 PM »

Russian tsars banned Eastern Catholicism (just like Polish kings had banned Eastern Orthodoxy).

Catholic Slavs have been instigated throughout the history to part take in the expansion of the Latin civilization towards the East (Drang nach Osten). Under the guise of that policy Germanic states along with the Vatican tried to catholicize as much as possible Slavs in order to unleash their well know strategy divide and rule, by creating hostility amongst Slavs according to the principle Orthodox vs Catholics, which was a precondition for conflicts between Catholic and Orthodox Slavs. This was a result of a colonial engineering by Western colonial powers.  

However you approach the matter, to claim that Orthodox states occupied Catholic countries and obligated their state and military organs to conduct forced conversions is simply not true. On the other hand, Germanic states and other Catholic Empires did occupy Orthodox territories and systematically converted many Slavs to their state religion. They even carried out exterminations of Orthodox people in both world wars. I am not saying this to cause conflicts between the two groups. However, I think that colonialism of Eastern-Europa has been undermined by the official history, especially in the Western world.
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2012, 04:11:49 PM »

However you approach the matter, to claim that Orthodox states occupied Catholic countries and obligated their state and military organs to conduct forced conversions is simply not true.

Facts disagree with your BS propaganda, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Che%C5%82m_Eparchy
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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2012, 04:12:59 PM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

I take that as the compliment I'm sure was intended. However, I think there are a lot more than just a select few who "take it seriously".

There are so many good, holy people in my own parish that I can only ask God to help me be one-tenth as holy as them. There's a lady with cancer who's undergone repeated bouts of chemo yet always has a bright smile on her face and a cheerful word for all. There's families caring for loved ones with various illnesses or conditions that would bring most of us to despair, yet they shine with love and happiness.

Even outside of the church I have met people who didn't have any use at all for "religion", and yet the light of Christ shone through them so brilliantly it was hard to understand how they themselves couldn't see it! I think of woman I knew in the '80's who was an atheist and a prostitute; yet when she became pregnant and was told she must have an abortion to save her life, she refused and said, "No! My baby deserves a fair chance, just like I had!" She did die, and her baby died less than 24 hours later. But in her courage and her conviction that she was giving life to a BABY and not just a clump of cells, she taught me more about life than my 24+ years of Catholic training had ever done.

Don't mean to get all flowery, just something I was thinking about on this cold, rainy California afternoon ... (and may I humbly add, "eternal memory" to Stephanie and Denise ... )
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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2012, 04:28:28 PM »

MK defending the RC's in this thread, Marc defending Isa in another. I can't believe my own eyes. I think everyone is in a belated christmas spirit.
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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2012, 04:40:02 PM »


Facts disagree with your BS propaganda, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Che%C5%82m_Eparchy

I am not sure what happened. But I assume that my last post in this thread has been deleted? I will try therefore again.

I am not familiar with this happening from the 19th century. However, I should also check if from a Russian source, given that many history books of Western origin contain frauds. We should not rely too much on official history, if we seek the truth.

You cannot say that this small detail from history outweighs the massive catholicizations as organized and carried out by Western colonial powers for centuries long.
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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 04:42:42 PM »

I wouldn't call 260 k of people "small detail". I know you are not familiar with that, so please, stop posting about things you have no clue about.
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« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2012, 04:58:47 PM »

I wouldn't call 260 k of people "small detail". I know you are not familiar with that, so please, stop posting about things you have no clue about.

Since I am a Serb I do not know about every detail in Russia, brother. I have nothing against Catholics or Eastern-Catholics. I do have my opinion which I support with facts. It is my right to also consider the matter from a Russian source before I draw conclusions.

Massive conversions into Catholicism as had been done by Western colonial Empires on Orthodox and non-Orthodox territories, had not been performed by Orthodox countries on Catholic territories. You should be familiar with the fact that at least million Serbs were catholicized by the West throughout centuries.
Writings by catholic priests and Venetian, Hungarian and German state organs from the middle ages, provide us a lot of proof of such things.

Do not forget about other many Slavs who were germanized. You should also be aware that Austria in the 18th century catholicized Slavs from the Adriatic coast until Ukraine. You cannot claim that Orthodox countries used such policies towards Catholics in their countries to such a great extent. That is a strange thesis, which is not even worth to be discussed.
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« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2012, 05:14:31 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?
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« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2012, 05:22:44 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?

If you compare this to millions of Slavs from Middle and Eastern-Europe who were catholicized and even denationalized by several colonial and Roman Catholic Empires as Germany, Hungary, Austria, Republic of Venice, etc as well as with millions of native Americans and others who were also by force catholicized, it simply does not outweigh, neither is to be compared with what you are referring too...

Do not become offended or think wrong about me. I respect Catholics and I think that Catholics should preserve their further existing and I do not like to see that many Catholics nowadays are abandoning the Church and become atheists, etc. But we must be well aware of the history as it happened, so that we can avoid mistakes in the future. If not, foreign powers will manipulate again with us Slavic brother.
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« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2012, 06:24:02 PM »

I may just have to add myself to the people referred to in the OP, if this keeps up.

If Almighty God plays your political games, though, maybe we are all doomed.
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« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2012, 06:39:14 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?

If you compare this to millions of Slavs from Middle and Eastern-Europe who were catholicized and even denationalized by several colonial and Roman Catholic Empires as Germany, Hungary, Austria, Republic of Venice, etc as well as with millions of native Americans and others who were also by force catholicized, it simply does not outweigh, neither is to be compared with what you are referring too...

Do not become offended or think wrong about me. I respect Catholics and I think that Catholics should preserve their further existing and I do not like to see that many Catholics nowadays are abandoning the Church and become atheists, etc. But we must be well aware of the history as it happened, so that we can avoid mistakes in the future. If not, foreign powers will manipulate again with us Slavic brother.
Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.
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« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2012, 09:11:05 PM »

I may just have to add myself to the people referred to in the OP, if this keeps up.

If Almighty God plays your political games, though, maybe we are all doomed.

I'm pretty sure that, thankfully, God doesn't play any political games.  That seems to be the purview of us sinful humans, usually egged on by the demons.
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« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2012, 09:13:47 PM »

I know that some terrible things have happened in history. For which, I am very sorry.

But if we keep wanting revenge against one another, what good can we do?

 Cry
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« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »

I know that some terrible things have happened in history. For which, I am very sorry.

But if we keep wanting revenge against one another, what good can we do?

 Cry

You're right.  It's really difficult to hold both love and a desire for vengeance, or bitterness in your heart.  Nigh unto impossible, I would think.  We must know history to try to avoid making some of the same mistakes others have, but we must stop throwing it in each others' faces.  No love can come from that. 
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« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2012, 10:02:49 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 
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« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2012, 10:09:16 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?
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« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2012, 10:11:21 PM »

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
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« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2012, 10:16:32 PM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

I take that as the compliment I'm sure was intended. However, I think there are a lot more than just a select few who "take it seriously".

There are so many good, holy people in my own parish that I can only ask God to help me be one-tenth as holy as them. There's a lady with cancer who's undergone repeated bouts of chemo yet always has a bright smile on her face and a cheerful word for all. There's families caring for loved ones with various illnesses or conditions that would bring most of us to despair, yet they shine with love and happiness.

Even outside of the church I have met people who didn't have any use at all for "religion", and yet the light of Christ shone through them so brilliantly it was hard to understand how they themselves couldn't see it! I think of woman I knew in the '80's who was an atheist and a prostitute; yet when she became pregnant and was told she must have an abortion to save her life, she refused and said, "No! My baby deserves a fair chance, just like I had!" She did die, and her baby died less than 24 hours later. But in her courage and her conviction that she was giving life to a BABY and not just a clump of cells, she taught me more about life than my 24+ years of Catholic training had ever done.

Don't mean to get all flowery, just something I was thinking about on this cold, rainy California afternoon ... (and may I humbly add, "eternal memory" to Stephanie and Denise ... )

Like I would be anything other than nice to you Theistgal.  I think we've posted on more than one message board at the same time for over the last 7 years... Smiley 
Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 
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« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2012, 08:54:13 AM »


Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 

The recording that is played in the beginning is from Ukraine (I think from Uniovo monastery), but well-known among Greek Catholics (and people interested in the rite) in Poland.

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?

No, they're not Russians. As I said, this area was used to be Orthodox, Biala Podlaska it's Podlachia (well, after reorganisation of Polish provinces officcialy not, Kostomloty of course still being part of Podlachia). It's difficult to say with whom they identify themselves. Some of them for sure consider themselves Polish (probably the majority), but some of them I suppose call themselves Podlashuks (= people from Podlachia), so it's the same as with Orthodox from Podlachia. Hm, but indeed, they sing "BlaGoslovi" a bit stronger than Orthodox in Poland, that it sound more like Russian than pronunciation than a sound between "g" and "h".

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
Receiving Communion on knees!  Shocked I thought there is a tendency to bringing life to Eastern tradition and putting off latinizations.

Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 

The same in Poland. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is strongly national, so they welcome Polish interested in Eastern rites in offish way. I was always welcomed warmly by Greek Catholic probably only because I'm of Serbian origin. But Polish Orthodox Church, generally is much more open. Everyone can be receive. But to join Greek Catholic Church, probably you should learn Ukrainian language, customs and so on. And maybe find in you genealogical a Ukrainian ancestor, so then you would be welcomed openly, because you want to revive Ukrainian and Greek Catholic spirit in you and your family.
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« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2012, 12:07:39 PM »

Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.

Actually reunifications in the lands merged into Russia were much less harsher than the one in Congress Poland.
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« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »

Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.

Actually reunifications in the lands merged into Russia were much less harsher than the one in Congress Poland.

Just pointing out to our friend that the Russian Orthodox have a commemoration for the return of 3 million, not an insignificant number.
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« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2012, 09:06:58 PM »

You have to be "nash". 

Don't know what you're talking about; I never watched the show.
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« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2012, 10:16:13 PM »

You have to be "nash". 

Don't know what you're talking about; I never watched the show.

It is Rusyn for "one of us".
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« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2012, 10:19:13 PM »

I guess we are "nash" if you accept the "EC as a bridge to Orthodoxy" theory. Grin
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« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2012, 10:43:53 PM »

I thought yuns guys were talking about Niecy Nash  Grin
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« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2012, 11:25:30 PM »

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?

Hello friend,

I think that if we take history into consideration, we will notice that the forefathers of Eastern-Catholics first recognized the pope and subsequently gradually were alienated from Orthodoxy. This was surely the case on the ethnic territories of Serbs (the Balkans).

So then I take it that you have never heard of the Maronite Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, or the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church? (Although they are less well-known that the Greek Catholics, nearly half of all Eastern Catholics belong to one of those 3 churches.)
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« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2012, 11:27:27 PM »

I guess we are "nash" if you accept the "EC as a bridge to Orthodoxy" theory. Grin

Ah, now I see.  Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2012, 11:39:09 PM »

But I think (if I'm mistaken, please correct me) that there is a difference between Roman Church (that means with latin rite) and Catholic Church (all sui juris Churches, Roman, Greek Catholic etc.).

This is, indeed, a mistake, and sadly it is one that is very often repeated. (More often, I think, than equally erroneous phrases like "22 Eastern Catholic Rites" etc.) The correct terms are Roman Rite and Latin Church, not "Roman Church" and "Latin Rite".
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« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2012, 01:35:10 PM »


Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 

The recording that is played in the beginning is from Ukraine (I think from Uniovo monastery), but well-known among Greek Catholics (and people interested in the rite) in Poland.

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?

No, they're not Russians. As I said, this area was used to be Orthodox, Biala Podlaska it's Podlachia (well, after reorganisation of Polish provinces officcialy not, Kostomloty of course still being part of Podlachia). It's difficult to say with whom they identify themselves. Some of them for sure consider themselves Polish (probably the majority), but some of them I suppose call themselves Podlashuks (= people from Podlachia), so it's the same as with Orthodox from Podlachia. Hm, but indeed, they sing "BlaGoslovi" a bit stronger than Orthodox in Poland, that it sound more like Russian than pronunciation than a sound between "g" and "h".

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
Receiving Communion on knees!  Shocked I thought there is a tendency to bringing life to Eastern tradition and putting off latinizations.

Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 

The same in Poland. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is strongly national, so they welcome Polish interested in Eastern rites in offish way. I was always welcomed warmly by Greek Catholic probably only because I'm of Serbian origin. But Polish Orthodox Church, generally is much more open. Everyone can be receive. But to join Greek Catholic Church, probably you should learn Ukrainian language, customs and so on. And maybe find in you genealogical a Ukrainian ancestor, so then you would be welcomed openly, because you want to revive Ukrainian and Greek Catholic spirit in you and your family.

My family is from  województwo podkarpackie/Podkarpackie Voivodeship/ Podkarpacie Province.  Specifically the Wetlina area.  Maybe if one day I come over to visit you and Mike can come there with me and we can ski.  Because in 1946-48 In Operation Vistula the area was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ukrainians who were Orthodox.  It's a fine national park area now.  I want to visit someday.  It is in the middle of absolutely nowhere and near UA and Slovakia. 
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« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2012, 01:41:28 PM »

No my Ukrainian Orthodox parish does not receive communion on the knees.  They do kneel for the Octe Nash and the Anafora.  
The Byzantine Catholics/Ruthenian Greek Catholics... sister churches of the Muckachevo Greco Katoliko Cerkva.. they have some people that kneel.  They also will use a paten (small disc on a long handle used by altar server to go under the chin of the person receiving communion).
Not all Greek Catholics use this.  


Like I've said to Mike Kalina before many times; the situation and church atmosphere and customs and so forth are so near what we have and deal with where I live in the USA.  Except for that video you showed of that sort of greek catholic/latin video.  No one is like that.
Funny thing is some of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the USA are on the Julian Calender and many are on the complete Gregorian calender.
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« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2012, 02:03:42 PM »

Stated for the record: I like the paten.
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« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »

Short answer, already said here: the ethnic base born into it. Here in their Slavic, industrial home base in America, the Northeast and particularly Pennsylvania, they're endangered (here in Philadelphia they're fewer than upstate), dying, but anyway, they are what they are. After the two waves of conversions to the Orthodox circa 1900 and in the '30s, they have their essentially Latin Catholicism with a modified Eastern liturgy and don't identify with the Orthodox at all. That and the experience of the WWII refugees who are the backbone of some Ukrainian Catholic parishes, the first Eastern Slavs I knew (30 years ago); the Soviets banned their church and tried to herd them into Orthodoxy.

Converts: sure, the ones online often are passing through to Orthodoxy. As has been written here, they want to do what Rome happens to tell the Eastern Catholics to do, be just like the Orthodox liturgically and express Catholicism in Orthodox terms, then they get fed up when they run up against the reality I just sketched above.

Offline you get a mix among the convert minority: born Roman Riters who fall in love with Orthodoxy but have nothing against Catholic doctrine, the online 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who've turned against post-schism Rome and understandably soon leave, and refugees from Vatican II/the Novus Ordo going to the only sound Catholic church in town. They've become the majority in some Ruthenian parishes, keeping them from closing.

Ukrainian nationalism = the Ukrainian Catholic Church = old Polish Galicia, one of the places the immigrants 100 years ago came from (the other being Ruthenia, their cousins) and which Stalin stole during WWII (ditto Ruthenia, but WWI basically ended Ruthenian immigration*; they're Americans). The rest of the country's like Russia proper, Russian-speaking (everybody from Kiev I've met) and Sovietized secular but with a minority of practicing Orthodox.

Greeks and Russians likely won't pressure you to convert; they have nothing to prove. They're happy being Greek or Russian and understand if you're happy being Irish or Italian Catholic, etc.

*Got to talk to a living treasure while she was still with us, a Ruthenian immigrant who happened to come over after the war. She described her home area, then part of Poland like Galicia, as it was in the '30s. 'We were all Greek Catholic' but for some reason she ended up Orthodox (marriage?). Village churches with miraculous shrines the people would walk on pilgrimage to.
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