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Author Topic: Who is content as an Eastern Catholic?  (Read 3841 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: December 24, 2012, 07:44:02 PM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church. My question is, who all here has either been born and raised in an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there or else left the Latin Church for an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there? Also, if you are content remaining Eastern Catholic, what reason(s) do you have for not becoming Eastern Orthodox and how do you feel about the doctrines that many Eastern Christians find controversial if not downright heretical (Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, filioque, Papal Infallibility, etc.). I am especially curious about, for those of you who do disagree with one or more of these doctrines, what reason(s) do you have for remaining in communion with Pope Benedict XVI rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox?
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church. My question is, who all here has either been born and raised in an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there or else left the Latin Church for an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there? Also, if you are content remaining Eastern Catholic, what reason(s) do you have for not becoming Eastern Orthodox and how do you feel about the doctrines that many Eastern Christians find controversial if not downright heretical (Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, filioque, Papal Infallibility, etc.). I am especially curious about, for those of you who do disagree with one or more of these doctrines, what reason(s) do you have for remaining in communion with Pope Benedict XVI rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox?

You probably heard that from me Cheesy

Usually the cradle Eastern Catholics are the one most contented about being Eastern Catholics.  It is the "converts" like myself who usually end up Orthodox.  For one thing, most of us discover Eastern spirituality through the Orthodox and say, "wow, I can do that and still be in communion with Rome?  Sign me up!"  Then we realize its not happening in the local EC parish we have (though in fairness there are some EC parishes who authentically reflect Orthodox tradition and spirituality, but they are more of an exception than the norm) so we go to the local Orthodox parish where we find what we are looking for.  Plus, the time we spent as Eastern Catholics actually weens us off from the Pope.  We start answering to a bishop other than the Pope and we realize the ground won't open up and hell will swallow us up if we do not profess undying loyalty to the Pope.
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2012, 08:22:46 PM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 12:30:19 AM »

I am a Melkite who was raised Novus Ordo / English / Roman Catholic.  I'm looking into Orthodoxy, but I can say with full confidence that I will end up Eastern, whether Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  This doesn't preclude me from (some) Western devotions, but the draw of Eastern spirituality is overwhelming.

As for why not Orthodox, I fear leaving Christ's Church and becoming a schismatic.  If I were convinced in the truth of Orthodoxy, I would leave Catholicism immediately and present myself as a catechumen.

While a lot of Orthodoxy appeals or seems reasonable, much of modern Orthodoxy's response to moral issues leaves me confused.  And that's before I get to the world vs. "true" Orthodoxy issue, which I'm getting first-hand knowledge about due to a kind individual on this board as well as a priest who is the only Orthodox clergyman who appears seriously interested in tackling my questions and providing spiritual advice.

So... TL;DR:  If/when I'm convinced of Orthodoxy's truth, I'm there.  Until then, I don't want to go to Hell, and lead my children along that path, by leaving Christ's Church.
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 01:36:30 AM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)

Nice to see you posting again theistgal!

Another analogy perhaps, if not for you, then maybe for another to whom it applies:

You are on a ship that instead of being adrift is anchored just off shore and within close sight of it, and they feed you, keep you safe, etc.  However, it is not docked to shore.  You want to get to shore.  You would have to jump off the boat, and swim/walk.  But occasionally you see sharks swimming about.  You see people waving you to shore, and some even with dingies coming out to get you.  They tell you there is not sign of sharks in the water right now.  But still, you've seen jaws, and what if the rope breaks while you are being lowered into the dingy, or you can't hold on right and let go, or what if they were right but sharks are coming ashore right as you are ready to come ashore...

These are real concerns.   May the Lord guide your safe passage to shore.     

 
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 01:51:57 AM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 02:26:17 AM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

Yea.  I'm one of those people (and in one of those jurisdictions) that understands the situation.  That's why I carefully constructed the analogy of the boat that is not drifty and anchored, yet cannot dock because it has been instructed not to by the fleet admiral, yet is really close to shore. 
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SlobodnaKrajina
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 03:39:45 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 01:30:49 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 04:39:32 AM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

EDIT: What if some Eastern Catholic moves to a Catholic country with Latin majority? Do people generally try to set up an EC parish or attend Latin parishs instead?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 04:47:04 AM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 04:41:37 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 11:48:53 AM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians. It's also becoming popular among some Belarusian circles.
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theistgal
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 12:01:25 PM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

Yea.  I'm one of those people (and in one of those jurisdictions) that understands the situation.  That's why I carefully constructed the analogy of the boat that is not drifty and anchored, yet cannot dock because it has been instructed not to by the fleet admiral, yet is really close to shore.  

But it really doesn't work in real life because no one in any of the Orthodox Churches I visit on a regular basis has tried to evangelize me, asked me to convert or in any way sent me one of those "dinghys". The only Orthodox who do that are the Netodox who say nasty things about the EC church which is treating me so kindly (and which BTW has only said nice things to me about Orthodoxy! ).

And to continue your analogy, there seem to be quite a few people running away from the supposed safety of the shore - some being chased into the water at gunpoint - who swim for the safety of our ship, where they're pulled aboard and given sanctuary. I know some converts from Romanian Orthodoxy who were put in that grim situation. Granted that was a political situation but it certainly had a direct effect on their religion as well.
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 01:19:32 PM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians.

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 01:23:16 PM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians.

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.

Maybe (depending how you define "Orthodox'). However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley

Hello my friend and brother. Thank you for the kind welcome!

The word uniate is used even in official history. It refers to Eastern-Catholics. The fact of the matter is, that Eastern-Catholics do not actually exist, and they are U-word removed - MK which refers to Orthodox Christians who accepted the Roman pope as their supreme religious leader and confess the faith according to the Easter tradition. However, in the history we can clearly see that most U-word removed - MK eventually became Roman-Catholics and totally alienated from Orthodoxy.

I do not see a reason why we should not use such terms which are also used in history books?
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 01:28:22 PM »

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley

Hello my friend and brother. Thank you for the kind welcome!

The word uniate is used even in official history. It refers to Eastern-Catholics. The fact of the matter is, that Eastern-Catholics do not actually exist, and they are U-word removed - MK which refers to Orthodox Christians who accepted the Roman pope as their supreme religious leader and confess the faith according to the Easter tradition. However, in the history we can clearly see that most U-word removed - MK eventually became Roman-Catholics and totally alienated from Orthodoxy.

I do not see a reason why we should not use such terms which are also used in history books?

[WRITING AS A MOD]

Such term shall not be used in discussions as it is considered to be prejorative by other members of this forum.

Obviously, if you are discussing these terms in their true and historical sense then there is no problem using the term. What is being rejected is using this as a label to counter other members of the forum.

Next time you will use it, you will be disciplined properly.

[/WRITING AS A MOD]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 01:32:41 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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SlobodnaKrajina
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 01:32:07 PM »

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.

In the 18th century some Ukrainians were catholicized by Austria under Maria Theresa. However, most Ukrainians are indeed Orthodox.
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »

However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.
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SlobodnaKrajina
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2012, 01:45:25 PM »

Such term shall not be used in discussions as it is considered to be prejorative by other members of this forum.

Obviously, if you are discussing these terms in their true and historical sense then there is no problem using the term. What is being rejected is using this as a label to counter other members of the forum.

Next time you will use it, you will be disciplined properly.

I used it properly and in the right context. I did not label any member of this forum. This is very strange. What kind of Orthodox-Christian forum is this, when we are not allowed to discuss historic happenings?
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »

You didn't use it in historical context, to call people who did accept the union with Rome. You called with such a term modern Eastern Catholics, who have never been Orthodox or have never accepted any unions.

If you want to continue discussing this rule, do it via private message, not in the thread. Discussing moderators' directives in public is against the forum rules too.
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2012, 03:51:03 PM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)

Nice to see you posting again theistgal!

Another analogy perhaps, if not for you, then maybe for another to whom it applies:

You are on a ship that instead of being adrift is anchored just off shore and within close sight of it, and they feed you, keep you safe, etc.  However, it is not docked to shore.  You want to get to shore.  You would have to jump off the boat, and swim/walk.  But occasionally you see sharks swimming about.  You see people waving you to shore, and some even with dingies coming out to get you.  They tell you there is not sign of sharks in the water right now.  But still, you've seen jaws, and what if the rope breaks while you are being lowered into the dingy, or you can't hold on right and let go, or what if they were right but sharks are coming ashore right as you are ready to come ashore...

These are real concerns.   May the Lord guide your safe passage to shore. 

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

I love these analogies. Even though I am not Eastern Catholic, I really do sympathize. What is frustrating to me as a RC is that, when I read Catholic sources, it sounds like our Church's position makes a lot of sense and I feel as though I am in the right place. However, when I read Orthodox material, it sounds like it makes sense too. I'm not sure if anyone has been or is in the same boat as me, but it is quite irritating. There are times that I really feel drawn towards Eastern Orthodoxy, but yet I do not feel I am able to give up some of the beliefs that I have embraced after entering the Catholic Church. It took a lot of mental/spiritual energy to de-program from the Protestant mindset and accept Catholic teachings, and I am not sure that I could re-program myself to reject the certain teachings that it would be necessary to reject to become Eastern Orthodox.

Of course, some people would say that asking the Holy Spirit for guidance would be a good idea. I have my doubts about that. I mean, how many other people have asked the Holy Spirit to show them the truth, and yet there are still many Catholics and many Orthodox. Obviously, one side has to be wrong. Who am I to think that I am so special and in tune with the Spirit that I will be led to the correct path whenever there are millions of Christians seeking the Holy Spirit and yet follow all sorts of different paths. It is frustrating to say the least.

Plus, to be perfectly honest, there are some RC teachings that I have a hard time accepting. I do not know if this is just my weak, sinful human nature that needs to learn obedience and conform itself to my Church's teaching, or whether I am reacting to something that is actually wrong. How can one tell? Also, in a hypothetical situation, suppose I was received into the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am disabled and do not drive, and the nearest Orthodox Church is 45 - 50 minutes away from where I live. If I ever did get a chance to attend Church it would be very rare since I doubt people would be wanting to transport me that far on a regular basis. Would it even be beneficial to become Eastern Orthodox in such a scenario, or would be it be better to tough it out and remain where I am?

Coming back to my other point, since I do not feel like I can totally trust my judgment, I have the fear of being wrong...so what if I left my current Church and it actually is the true Church?

Anyway...sorry for rambling, I've just been thinking a lot lately and it felt good to put all of this in writing and get it off of my chest. For those of you who are on one side of the schism or another and are very confident in where you are, I envy you. To me, however, the decision is rather difficult and complex.
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 03:53:05 PM »

Hi Wyatt - I like your post and I do know what you mean. I think we just have to pray every day for God's will to be done in our lives and trust Him to lead us on the right path.
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2012, 05:35:07 PM »

Maybe (depending how you define "Orthodox'). However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

To this day they are the ones fighting for an independent Ukraine, together with the 2 non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches.  Any nationalistic movement will not submit to any authority from Russia, even ecclesiastical ones.  That is why the UOC-MP won't do well with these people.  But many in Eastern Ukraine are more or less Russians anyway.
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2012, 05:37:22 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 05:43:59 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...

Indirectly they did.
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 05:48:48 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...

Indirectly they did.

How?
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

In answer to the OP, my biggest source of frustration and/or discontent as an Eastern Catholic (and in reply to SlobodnaKrajina, I *do* exist and I *am* Eastern Catholic  Wink) is the lack of parishes in the area where I live close enough to make it practical for us to attend regularly.  And I thank God that there is a Roman Catholic parish literally 5 minutes away where my wife and I can fulfill our Sunday and Holy Day privileges and obligations.  It ain't perfect, but it works.  Otherwise, I am perfectly content as an Eastern Catholic. Wink
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »

Probably the same number as people who are content as Methodist, Hindu, Eastern Orthodox, insert your faith here ______, etc.
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2012, 10:42:04 PM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.

That is a fair observation as I see it and it is something of a holdover from the earliest days of immigration to the United States. The one thing that the Greek Catholic Slavic immigrants truly sought was to left more or less alone as they were in 'staryj kraj' (the old country) and to practice 'nas viryj' (our faith) as they had for centuries, being neither particularly concerned about either the Pope or Orthodoxy as it was commonly viewed by the Greeks and Russians. However, for most of the first half of the 20th century that was not to be the case as they were a minuscule minority in the new world and were caught between a rock and a hard place - Rome and Moscow. Following a twenty five year period during which the Russian Revolution, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and finally the second world war took place an equilibrium was reached in the United States and those who became Orthodox went on their way and those who remained Greek Catholic went on their own way as well. In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 07:21:52 AM »

I am happy as an Eastern Catholic, but I have never ruled out the possibility of becoming Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 07:23:45 AM »

In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.
That is sad, because I really like Russian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 09:37:08 AM »

There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes. 

Same here  Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2012, 09:16:55 AM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Even without focusing on a specific group like Eastern Catholics, I would say that there's a very wide-spread phenomenon (epidemic?) whereby people are regarded as free agents even if they already belong to a church. (Kind of like the no-fault divorce mentality.)

For example many people, knowing that I'm Catholic, assume that if I were Orthodox I would leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism.
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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2012, 09:20:02 AM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about? 

:raise eyebrow:
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2012, 09:22:10 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?
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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2012, 11:48:56 AM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2012, 12:11:27 PM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.

True true true.
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2012, 05:20:59 AM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.

That is a fair observation as I see it and it is something of a holdover from the earliest days of immigration to the United States. The one thing that the Greek Catholic Slavic immigrants truly sought was to left more or less alone as they were in 'staryj kraj' (the old country) and to practice 'nas viryj' (our faith) as they had for centuries, being neither particularly concerned about either the Pope or Orthodoxy as it was commonly viewed by the Greeks and Russians. However, for most of the first half of the 20th century that was not to be the case as they were a minuscule minority in the new world and were caught between a rock and a hard place - Rome and Moscow. Following a twenty five year period during which the Russian Revolution, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and finally the second world war took place an equilibrium was reached in the United States and those who became Orthodox went on their way and those who remained Greek Catholic went on their own way as well. In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.


Some trace resentment can still be found even years after local splits from GC to Orthodoxy.  But these days its much better than when they had armed guards outside of St. Mary's in Cambria City and the Cathedral as they did in the early days.  In fact I may make the observation that many parishes that became Orthodox within the last 80 years or so maybe 100 now became Orthodox and stopped there.  What we resulted in were parishes that are shrinking and a laity who hasn't learnt much since sunday school.  Why? Splitting off from the Greek Catholics got them 80% of the way to Orthodoxy and that last 20% has been neglected in many parishes.  I don't care what jurisdiction it is.  It is hard to explain if you have never lived if a reader is reading this and wondering what I am talking about.  I know Metropolitan Nicholas of thrice blessed memory did a lot for ACROD.  He said it would be up to the next bishop to finish his work.  A good parish relies on a vibrant priest who works with the people.  A parish council that isn't absolutely a congregationalist nightmare.  A cantor that knows his stuff.  And families.  And guess what the Greek Catholics are in the same boat.  The Greek Catholic parish up the road from our Orthodox Church is getting smaller.  The Diak died a number of years ago.  The few that sing improvise tones like they do at my family parish.  It's sad because people want to help but you know susie q has did it this way since she was three and she's the choir leader now and she doesn't care if she sings it wrong.  The priest argues with the people and laughs at funerals.

 Greek Catholic or Orthodox the only thing different beside a few doctrinal issues people go on about here is that if the window breaks at the Greek Catholic rectory it's fixed by the end of the day.  If the window breaks at an Orthodox rectory it takes 8 parish council meetings to try to figure out who's cousin can replace it for free and charge nothing for the window.  It consists of them yelling at the priest because the heating bill has gone up but they won't fix the window.  When it finally gets fixed it doesn't fit right and in the summer ants use it as a gateway.  Gotta love it!
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 05:31:25 AM »

Here's what I remember about my one great aunts funeral at the Greek Catholic parish.  The parish filled up with Roman Catholics and none of them knew they could take communion.  Even after the priest told then they could they didn't go up.
The one Greek Catholic parish near here is directly across the street from a large RC parish.  The RC priest tells them to go over and celebrate lenten services with their neighbor.  No one does. 
The greatest threat to the Ruthenians here are the Roman Catholics who use their parishes as a hobby and sand box.  Kneeling for communion, insisting on latin music (which doesn't get used but they whine about it), people who dress kids up with lace on their heads (real Greek Catholics don't wear anything here except like the Orthodox some wear pani hats podkarpatska knows what I mean).  It's a shame I've witnessed it.  Either become a part of the community or don't.  Don't try to force your visions and fantasies about church onto the ruthenian parish you are visiting.
We've had a few come into our rural Orthodox parish like that but then leave because it wasn't their fantasy idea of church.  Who knows. 
But I was Greek Catholic and I can tell you the positives and negatives of both sides.
But no matter what being Orthodox is unleashing 450 years of enslavement to Rome that was pinned on my grandmother and her family.
Being Orthodox means being a part of the correct church, the original church.
I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.
It was created for a specific population by dead governments. 
Being Orthodox means belonging to something created by Christ not by politicians as were the Greek Catholics in the Slavic world.
Being Orthodox means you are free to be fully Orthodox with no Rome hang-ups or second class to rome whining sessions and whining sessions about how the Orthodox don't see you as Orthodox. I've witnessed this.
Because once in a while you get that pesky Greek Catholic priest who fills in for a few months while the priest is sick and he tries to inflict his "roman catholics see us as second class citizens and the Orthodox don't see us as ORthodox" disease onto the congregation and it is an easy one to catch.
I've seen that.
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 05:35:41 AM »

real Greek Catholics don't wear anything here

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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 06:10:02 AM »

If the window breaks at an Orthodox rectory it takes 8 parish council meetings to try to figure out who's cousin can replace it for free and charge nothing for the window.  It consists of them yelling at the priest because the heating bill has gone up but they won't fix the window.  When it finally gets fixed it doesn't fit right and in the summer ants use it as a gateway. Gotta love it!

So true.
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2012, 08:57:08 AM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:31 AM »

this video  - 1:51:00

You can put that into the link:
http://youtu.be/yok9YgnJMEU?t=1h51m

(e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes).

I admit that very odd, but it's probably also very rare.
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2012, 11:29:35 AM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

Here's my 2 cents: I'm certainly glad that Latin Catholic (e.g. Roman-Rite Catholics) have the option of transferring to an Eastern Catholic Church (whether Greek/Byzantine or "Oriental"); but at the same time I fear that that very option can also be an excuse for maintaining the status quo in the Latin Church (or even allowing it to get worse).
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