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Author Topic: Who is content as an Eastern Catholic?  (Read 4088 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: December 24, 2012, 07:44:02 PM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church. My question is, who all here has either been born and raised in an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there or else left the Latin Church for an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there? Also, if you are content remaining Eastern Catholic, what reason(s) do you have for not becoming Eastern Orthodox and how do you feel about the doctrines that many Eastern Christians find controversial if not downright heretical (Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, filioque, Papal Infallibility, etc.). I am especially curious about, for those of you who do disagree with one or more of these doctrines, what reason(s) do you have for remaining in communion with Pope Benedict XVI rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox?
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church. My question is, who all here has either been born and raised in an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there or else left the Latin Church for an Eastern Catholic Church and stayed there? Also, if you are content remaining Eastern Catholic, what reason(s) do you have for not becoming Eastern Orthodox and how do you feel about the doctrines that many Eastern Christians find controversial if not downright heretical (Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, filioque, Papal Infallibility, etc.). I am especially curious about, for those of you who do disagree with one or more of these doctrines, what reason(s) do you have for remaining in communion with Pope Benedict XVI rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox?

You probably heard that from me Cheesy

Usually the cradle Eastern Catholics are the one most contented about being Eastern Catholics.  It is the "converts" like myself who usually end up Orthodox.  For one thing, most of us discover Eastern spirituality through the Orthodox and say, "wow, I can do that and still be in communion with Rome?  Sign me up!"  Then we realize its not happening in the local EC parish we have (though in fairness there are some EC parishes who authentically reflect Orthodox tradition and spirituality, but they are more of an exception than the norm) so we go to the local Orthodox parish where we find what we are looking for.  Plus, the time we spent as Eastern Catholics actually weens us off from the Pope.  We start answering to a bishop other than the Pope and we realize the ground won't open up and hell will swallow us up if we do not profess undying loyalty to the Pope.
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2012, 08:22:46 PM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 12:30:19 AM »

I am a Melkite who was raised Novus Ordo / English / Roman Catholic.  I'm looking into Orthodoxy, but I can say with full confidence that I will end up Eastern, whether Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  This doesn't preclude me from (some) Western devotions, but the draw of Eastern spirituality is overwhelming.

As for why not Orthodox, I fear leaving Christ's Church and becoming a schismatic.  If I were convinced in the truth of Orthodoxy, I would leave Catholicism immediately and present myself as a catechumen.

While a lot of Orthodoxy appeals or seems reasonable, much of modern Orthodoxy's response to moral issues leaves me confused.  And that's before I get to the world vs. "true" Orthodoxy issue, which I'm getting first-hand knowledge about due to a kind individual on this board as well as a priest who is the only Orthodox clergyman who appears seriously interested in tackling my questions and providing spiritual advice.

So... TL;DR:  If/when I'm convinced of Orthodoxy's truth, I'm there.  Until then, I don't want to go to Hell, and lead my children along that path, by leaving Christ's Church.
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 01:36:30 AM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)

Nice to see you posting again theistgal!

Another analogy perhaps, if not for you, then maybe for another to whom it applies:

You are on a ship that instead of being adrift is anchored just off shore and within close sight of it, and they feed you, keep you safe, etc.  However, it is not docked to shore.  You want to get to shore.  You would have to jump off the boat, and swim/walk.  But occasionally you see sharks swimming about.  You see people waving you to shore, and some even with dingies coming out to get you.  They tell you there is not sign of sharks in the water right now.  But still, you've seen jaws, and what if the rope breaks while you are being lowered into the dingy, or you can't hold on right and let go, or what if they were right but sharks are coming ashore right as you are ready to come ashore...

These are real concerns.   May the Lord guide your safe passage to shore.     

 
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 01:51:57 AM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 02:26:17 AM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

Yea.  I'm one of those people (and in one of those jurisdictions) that understands the situation.  That's why I carefully constructed the analogy of the boat that is not drifty and anchored, yet cannot dock because it has been instructed not to by the fleet admiral, yet is really close to shore. 
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SlobodnaKrajina
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 03:39:45 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 01:30:49 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 04:39:32 AM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

EDIT: What if some Eastern Catholic moves to a Catholic country with Latin majority? Do people generally try to set up an EC parish or attend Latin parishs instead?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 04:47:04 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 04:41:37 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 11:48:53 AM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians. It's also becoming popular among some Belarusian circles.
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 12:01:25 PM »

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

Yea.  I'm one of those people (and in one of those jurisdictions) that understands the situation.  That's why I carefully constructed the analogy of the boat that is not drifty and anchored, yet cannot dock because it has been instructed not to by the fleet admiral, yet is really close to shore.  

But it really doesn't work in real life because no one in any of the Orthodox Churches I visit on a regular basis has tried to evangelize me, asked me to convert or in any way sent me one of those "dinghys". The only Orthodox who do that are the Netodox who say nasty things about the EC church which is treating me so kindly (and which BTW has only said nice things to me about Orthodoxy! ).

And to continue your analogy, there seem to be quite a few people running away from the supposed safety of the shore - some being chased into the water at gunpoint - who swim for the safety of our ship, where they're pulled aboard and given sanctuary. I know some converts from Romanian Orthodoxy who were put in that grim situation. Granted that was a political situation but it certainly had a direct effect on their religion as well.
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 01:19:32 PM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians.

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 01:23:16 PM »

Is any form of Eastern Catholicism part of any nation's national identity?

Ukrainians.

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.

Maybe (depending how you define "Orthodox'). However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley

Hello my friend and brother. Thank you for the kind welcome!

The word uniate is used even in official history. It refers to Eastern-Catholics. The fact of the matter is, that Eastern-Catholics do not actually exist, and they are U-word removed - MK which refers to Orthodox Christians who accepted the Roman pope as their supreme religious leader and confess the faith according to the Easter tradition. However, in the history we can clearly see that most U-word removed - MK eventually became Roman-Catholics and totally alienated from Orthodoxy.

I do not see a reason why we should not use such terms which are also used in history books?
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 01:28:22 PM »

Zdravo, SlobodnaKrajina. Just so you know, the use of the word "U-word removed - MK" is not allowed on this forum. I'm letting you know because I was not aware of it myself until I received moderation because of it, so I don't want to see you in the same position. Welcome to the forum. Smiley

Hello my friend and brother. Thank you for the kind welcome!

The word uniate is used even in official history. It refers to Eastern-Catholics. The fact of the matter is, that Eastern-Catholics do not actually exist, and they are U-word removed - MK which refers to Orthodox Christians who accepted the Roman pope as their supreme religious leader and confess the faith according to the Easter tradition. However, in the history we can clearly see that most U-word removed - MK eventually became Roman-Catholics and totally alienated from Orthodoxy.

I do not see a reason why we should not use such terms which are also used in history books?

[WRITING AS A MOD]

Such term shall not be used in discussions as it is considered to be prejorative by other members of this forum.

Obviously, if you are discussing these terms in their true and historical sense then there is no problem using the term. What is being rejected is using this as a label to counter other members of the forum.

Next time you will use it, you will be disciplined properly.

[/WRITING AS A MOD]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 01:32:41 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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SlobodnaKrajina
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 01:32:07 PM »

Huh? I thought most of the Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians.

In the 18th century some Ukrainians were catholicized by Austria under Maria Theresa. However, most Ukrainians are indeed Orthodox.
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »

However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2012, 01:45:25 PM »

Such term shall not be used in discussions as it is considered to be prejorative by other members of this forum.

Obviously, if you are discussing these terms in their true and historical sense then there is no problem using the term. What is being rejected is using this as a label to counter other members of the forum.

Next time you will use it, you will be disciplined properly.

I used it properly and in the right context. I did not label any member of this forum. This is very strange. What kind of Orthodox-Christian forum is this, when we are not allowed to discuss historic happenings?
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »

You didn't use it in historical context, to call people who did accept the union with Rome. You called with such a term modern Eastern Catholics, who have never been Orthodox or have never accepted any unions.

If you want to continue discussing this rule, do it via private message, not in the thread. Discussing moderators' directives in public is against the forum rules too.
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2012, 03:51:03 PM »

I don't know if I'd say I'm content but it is interesting to be sort of in the middle as we are.

Sometimes it seems like being EC is like standing on a beach, just at the water's edge. I know it would be great to go all the way into the ocean -but I also know I'm not that great a swimmer and I don't want to drown! So for now, I am content with wading in the shallows, getting used to the feel of the waves, and hoping someone will come along someday who can take me further out and teach me to float. :-)

Nice to see you posting again theistgal!

Another analogy perhaps, if not for you, then maybe for another to whom it applies:

You are on a ship that instead of being adrift is anchored just off shore and within close sight of it, and they feed you, keep you safe, etc.  However, it is not docked to shore.  You want to get to shore.  You would have to jump off the boat, and swim/walk.  But occasionally you see sharks swimming about.  You see people waving you to shore, and some even with dingies coming out to get you.  They tell you there is not sign of sharks in the water right now.  But still, you've seen jaws, and what if the rope breaks while you are being lowered into the dingy, or you can't hold on right and let go, or what if they were right but sharks are coming ashore right as you are ready to come ashore...

These are real concerns.   May the Lord guide your safe passage to shore. 

Analogies, analogies, I got a million of 'em! Cheesy

But one that does strike home is the image of the EC church as my adoptive mother.  She's a kind soul who's not really very well off, but is doing the best she knows how to take care of me. I sometimes think I'd like to go live with my "real" mother, but then one of her children says something mean about my adoptive mom, and I get angry and want to defend her against the unjust sneers. If my future brothers and sisters would realize this, and speak more kindly about the only mom I've ever really known, I might find it easier to listen to their praises of our "real" mom.

I love these analogies. Even though I am not Eastern Catholic, I really do sympathize. What is frustrating to me as a RC is that, when I read Catholic sources, it sounds like our Church's position makes a lot of sense and I feel as though I am in the right place. However, when I read Orthodox material, it sounds like it makes sense too. I'm not sure if anyone has been or is in the same boat as me, but it is quite irritating. There are times that I really feel drawn towards Eastern Orthodoxy, but yet I do not feel I am able to give up some of the beliefs that I have embraced after entering the Catholic Church. It took a lot of mental/spiritual energy to de-program from the Protestant mindset and accept Catholic teachings, and I am not sure that I could re-program myself to reject the certain teachings that it would be necessary to reject to become Eastern Orthodox.

Of course, some people would say that asking the Holy Spirit for guidance would be a good idea. I have my doubts about that. I mean, how many other people have asked the Holy Spirit to show them the truth, and yet there are still many Catholics and many Orthodox. Obviously, one side has to be wrong. Who am I to think that I am so special and in tune with the Spirit that I will be led to the correct path whenever there are millions of Christians seeking the Holy Spirit and yet follow all sorts of different paths. It is frustrating to say the least.

Plus, to be perfectly honest, there are some RC teachings that I have a hard time accepting. I do not know if this is just my weak, sinful human nature that needs to learn obedience and conform itself to my Church's teaching, or whether I am reacting to something that is actually wrong. How can one tell? Also, in a hypothetical situation, suppose I was received into the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am disabled and do not drive, and the nearest Orthodox Church is 45 - 50 minutes away from where I live. If I ever did get a chance to attend Church it would be very rare since I doubt people would be wanting to transport me that far on a regular basis. Would it even be beneficial to become Eastern Orthodox in such a scenario, or would be it be better to tough it out and remain where I am?

Coming back to my other point, since I do not feel like I can totally trust my judgment, I have the fear of being wrong...so what if I left my current Church and it actually is the true Church?

Anyway...sorry for rambling, I've just been thinking a lot lately and it felt good to put all of this in writing and get it off of my chest. For those of you who are on one side of the schism or another and are very confident in where you are, I envy you. To me, however, the decision is rather difficult and complex.
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 03:53:05 PM »

Hi Wyatt - I like your post and I do know what you mean. I think we just have to pray every day for God's will to be done in our lives and trust Him to lead us on the right path.
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2012, 05:35:07 PM »

Maybe (depending how you define "Orthodox'). However Ukrainian Catholic Church is highly nationalistic and was one of the main catalysts of Ukrainian national movement.

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

To this day they are the ones fighting for an independent Ukraine, together with the 2 non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches.  Any nationalistic movement will not submit to any authority from Russia, even ecclesiastical ones.  That is why the UOC-MP won't do well with these people.  But many in Eastern Ukraine are more or less Russians anyway.
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2012, 05:37:22 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 05:43:59 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...

Indirectly they did.
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 05:48:48 PM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about?  As the Orthodox favored Moscow, they wanted to cement their own identity and the Pope of Rome was the other "superpower" of the time that can help them with that.

Moscow played no role in the Union...

Indirectly they did.

How?
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

In answer to the OP, my biggest source of frustration and/or discontent as an Eastern Catholic (and in reply to SlobodnaKrajina, I *do* exist and I *am* Eastern Catholic  Wink) is the lack of parishes in the area where I live close enough to make it practical for us to attend regularly.  And I thank God that there is a Roman Catholic parish literally 5 minutes away where my wife and I can fulfill our Sunday and Holy Day privileges and obligations.  It ain't perfect, but it works.  Otherwise, I am perfectly content as an Eastern Catholic. Wink
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »

Probably the same number as people who are content as Methodist, Hindu, Eastern Orthodox, insert your faith here ______, etc.
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2012, 10:42:04 PM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.

That is a fair observation as I see it and it is something of a holdover from the earliest days of immigration to the United States. The one thing that the Greek Catholic Slavic immigrants truly sought was to left more or less alone as they were in 'staryj kraj' (the old country) and to practice 'nas viryj' (our faith) as they had for centuries, being neither particularly concerned about either the Pope or Orthodoxy as it was commonly viewed by the Greeks and Russians. However, for most of the first half of the 20th century that was not to be the case as they were a minuscule minority in the new world and were caught between a rock and a hard place - Rome and Moscow. Following a twenty five year period during which the Russian Revolution, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and finally the second world war took place an equilibrium was reached in the United States and those who became Orthodox went on their way and those who remained Greek Catholic went on their own way as well. In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 07:21:52 AM »

I am happy as an Eastern Catholic, but I have never ruled out the possibility of becoming Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 07:23:45 AM »

In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.
That is sad, because I really like Russian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 09:37:08 AM »

There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes. 

Same here  Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2012, 09:16:55 AM »

I have heard from several people that becoming Eastern Catholic or joining one of the Eastern Catholic Churches was not really a permanent thing, but seems to be more of a stepping stone on the path to leaving the Catholic Church and entering the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Even without focusing on a specific group like Eastern Catholics, I would say that there's a very wide-spread phenomenon (epidemic?) whereby people are regarded as free agents even if they already belong to a church. (Kind of like the no-fault divorce mentality.)

For example many people, knowing that I'm Catholic, assume that if I were Orthodox I would leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism.
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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2012, 09:20:02 AM »

From the get-go they have always believed they are the continuation of Rus and have opposed claims by Moscow.  Isn't this why the Union of Brest came about? 

:raise eyebrow:
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2012, 09:22:10 AM »

Eastern Catholics are also called U-word removed - MK. They were Orthodox Christian who accepted the pope as their supreme leader. On Serbian territories on the Balkans, Serbs were forcibly converted into U-word removed - MK and Catholics by several Western Empires.  

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?
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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2012, 11:48:56 AM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2012, 12:11:27 PM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.

True true true.
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2012, 05:20:59 AM »

I live in Greek Catholic central.  There are just as many Greek Catholic parishes as there are Orthodox parishes.  Guess what?  The Greek Catholics go to church and go home.  They don't concern themselves with how orthodox they are either.

That is a fair observation as I see it and it is something of a holdover from the earliest days of immigration to the United States. The one thing that the Greek Catholic Slavic immigrants truly sought was to left more or less alone as they were in 'staryj kraj' (the old country) and to practice 'nas viryj' (our faith) as they had for centuries, being neither particularly concerned about either the Pope or Orthodoxy as it was commonly viewed by the Greeks and Russians. However, for most of the first half of the 20th century that was not to be the case as they were a minuscule minority in the new world and were caught between a rock and a hard place - Rome and Moscow. Following a twenty five year period during which the Russian Revolution, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and finally the second world war took place an equilibrium was reached in the United States and those who became Orthodox went on their way and those who remained Greek Catholic went on their own way as well. In Europe, Greek Catholicism became equated with anti-communism and anti-Russian sentiments and while the communists have come and gone, the anti-Russian sentiments persist.


Some trace resentment can still be found even years after local splits from GC to Orthodoxy.  But these days its much better than when they had armed guards outside of St. Mary's in Cambria City and the Cathedral as they did in the early days.  In fact I may make the observation that many parishes that became Orthodox within the last 80 years or so maybe 100 now became Orthodox and stopped there.  What we resulted in were parishes that are shrinking and a laity who hasn't learnt much since sunday school.  Why? Splitting off from the Greek Catholics got them 80% of the way to Orthodoxy and that last 20% has been neglected in many parishes.  I don't care what jurisdiction it is.  It is hard to explain if you have never lived if a reader is reading this and wondering what I am talking about.  I know Metropolitan Nicholas of thrice blessed memory did a lot for ACROD.  He said it would be up to the next bishop to finish his work.  A good parish relies on a vibrant priest who works with the people.  A parish council that isn't absolutely a congregationalist nightmare.  A cantor that knows his stuff.  And families.  And guess what the Greek Catholics are in the same boat.  The Greek Catholic parish up the road from our Orthodox Church is getting smaller.  The Diak died a number of years ago.  The few that sing improvise tones like they do at my family parish.  It's sad because people want to help but you know susie q has did it this way since she was three and she's the choir leader now and she doesn't care if she sings it wrong.  The priest argues with the people and laughs at funerals.

 Greek Catholic or Orthodox the only thing different beside a few doctrinal issues people go on about here is that if the window breaks at the Greek Catholic rectory it's fixed by the end of the day.  If the window breaks at an Orthodox rectory it takes 8 parish council meetings to try to figure out who's cousin can replace it for free and charge nothing for the window.  It consists of them yelling at the priest because the heating bill has gone up but they won't fix the window.  When it finally gets fixed it doesn't fit right and in the summer ants use it as a gateway.  Gotta love it!
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 05:31:25 AM »

Here's what I remember about my one great aunts funeral at the Greek Catholic parish.  The parish filled up with Roman Catholics and none of them knew they could take communion.  Even after the priest told then they could they didn't go up.
The one Greek Catholic parish near here is directly across the street from a large RC parish.  The RC priest tells them to go over and celebrate lenten services with their neighbor.  No one does. 
The greatest threat to the Ruthenians here are the Roman Catholics who use their parishes as a hobby and sand box.  Kneeling for communion, insisting on latin music (which doesn't get used but they whine about it), people who dress kids up with lace on their heads (real Greek Catholics don't wear anything here except like the Orthodox some wear pani hats podkarpatska knows what I mean).  It's a shame I've witnessed it.  Either become a part of the community or don't.  Don't try to force your visions and fantasies about church onto the ruthenian parish you are visiting.
We've had a few come into our rural Orthodox parish like that but then leave because it wasn't their fantasy idea of church.  Who knows. 
But I was Greek Catholic and I can tell you the positives and negatives of both sides.
But no matter what being Orthodox is unleashing 450 years of enslavement to Rome that was pinned on my grandmother and her family.
Being Orthodox means being a part of the correct church, the original church.
I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.
It was created for a specific population by dead governments. 
Being Orthodox means belonging to something created by Christ not by politicians as were the Greek Catholics in the Slavic world.
Being Orthodox means you are free to be fully Orthodox with no Rome hang-ups or second class to rome whining sessions and whining sessions about how the Orthodox don't see you as Orthodox. I've witnessed this.
Because once in a while you get that pesky Greek Catholic priest who fills in for a few months while the priest is sick and he tries to inflict his "roman catholics see us as second class citizens and the Orthodox don't see us as ORthodox" disease onto the congregation and it is an easy one to catch.
I've seen that.
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 05:35:41 AM »

real Greek Catholics don't wear anything here

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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 06:10:02 AM »

If the window breaks at an Orthodox rectory it takes 8 parish council meetings to try to figure out who's cousin can replace it for free and charge nothing for the window.  It consists of them yelling at the priest because the heating bill has gone up but they won't fix the window.  When it finally gets fixed it doesn't fit right and in the summer ants use it as a gateway. Gotta love it!

So true.
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2012, 08:57:08 AM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:31 AM »

this video  - 1:51:00

You can put that into the link:
http://youtu.be/yok9YgnJMEU?t=1h51m

(e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes).

I admit that very odd, but it's probably also very rare.
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2012, 11:29:35 AM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

Here's my 2 cents: I'm certainly glad that Latin Catholic (e.g. Roman-Rite Catholics) have the option of transferring to an Eastern Catholic Church (whether Greek/Byzantine or "Oriental"); but at the same time I fear that that very option can also be an excuse for maintaining the status quo in the Latin Church (or even allowing it to get worse).
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 12:14:24 PM »

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 01:53:02 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 02:08:14 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

A better question would be: "What happened to the iconostasis?"
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 02:16:00 PM »

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

It's a Roman Catholic church in Biala Podlaska (traditionally Orthodox town, fortunately there still 2 Orthodox parishes). The priest is the parson of the unique neo-unite parish in the world (don't cut the u-word as it's official name, please) in Kostomloty (a village in Podlachia, there is also an Orthodox parish) - it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 

I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »

That is interesting. I never knew they had Russian Catholic parishes in Poland. Thank you for the information.

What church is that? The priest's vestments look Russian.

It's a Roman Catholic church in Biala Podlaska (traditionally Orthodox town, fortunately there still 2 Orthodox parishes). The priest is the parson of the unique neo-unite parish in the world (don't cut the u-word as it's official name, please) in Kostomloty (a village in Podlachia, there is also an Orthodox parish) - it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.

It appears to me the Latin priest ran out of Byzantine Communion and had to retrieve presanctified Latin Communion in order to communicate everyone. 

I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2012, 03:08:25 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2012, 03:18:56 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".

Of course, you are right. I've just shortened my thoughts. The whole names are Ukrainian-byzantine rite, neo-unite byzantine rite, Romania- byzantine rite etc. (at least in Polish, I believe in Ukrainian too). But I think (if I'm mistaken, please correct me) that there is a difference between Roman Church (that means with latin rite) and Catholic Church (all sui juris Churches, Roman, Greek Catholic etc.). And usually Roman Catholic who say Catholic Church mean Roman rite and forget about Eastern Catholics. At least, that's terminology used in Polish.
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2012, 03:33:48 PM »

it does not use Ukrainian rite as rest Greek Catholic parishes in Poland, but Russian (synodal). But it's becoming more and more latinized, and the priests usually are bi-ritualists. <a href="http://www.kostomloty.com/node/127 >Here[/url] you can see the pictures from celebration of Corpus Cristi in this parish.
...
I'm afraid they've just chosen 2 ways of giving the Communion because, believe me, Polish Roman Catholics fear in some way byzantine rite and many things connected with it, including the Eucharist (how to approach to it, how to behave etc.)

Just for the record "Byzantine Rite" is correct, "Ukrainian Rite" is not. (There's a Ukrainian Church.) This is the same kind of confusion of churches and rites that leads people to speak of the "Latin Rite" and the "Roman Church".

Would it be correct to say Ruthenian rite? Their liturgical books differ from the vulgate of the Byzantine liturgical books.
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2012, 03:35:09 PM »

There have unfortunately been forced conversions on both sides. We should condemn those whether done by Orthodox or Catholics. Sadly we are all sinners.

No state organs of Orthodox countries have organized forced conversions of other people. In contrast to that, catholic Empires throughout the history have along with the Vatican forced many people to accept Roman Catholicism by means of brutal force.

The colonial European powers catholicized Latin-America and Serbian territories west from the river of Drina, etc. Such things were not organized by Orthodox nations. Until the year 1054 also Western-Europa was confessing the same faith, as has been persevered by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2012, 03:38:31 PM »

No state organs of Orthodox countries have organized forced conversions of other people. In contrast to that, catholic Empires throughout the history have along with the Vatican forced many people to accept Roman Catholicism by means of brutal force.

1875
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2012, 03:40:34 PM »

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?

Hello friend,

I think that if we take history into consideration, we will notice that the forefathers of Eastern-Catholics first recognized the pope and subsequently gradually were alienated from Orthodoxy. This was surely the case on the ethnic territories of Serbs (the Balkans).
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 03:51:30 PM »

1875

I am not sure to what you are referring exactly. However, from an objective perspective one cannot claim that Orthodox states have conducted the same policy of "Convert or Die" as had been done by Western-European countries which organized the biological exterminations of the entire native populations of overseas destinations as well as occupied Orthodox countries which they submitted to assimilation, germanization and forced conversions into Catholicism. 
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2012, 03:52:54 PM »

Russian tsars banned Eastern Catholicism (just like Polish kings had banned Eastern Orthodoxy).
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2012, 04:06:52 PM »

Russian tsars banned Eastern Catholicism (just like Polish kings had banned Eastern Orthodoxy).

Catholic Slavs have been instigated throughout the history to part take in the expansion of the Latin civilization towards the East (Drang nach Osten). Under the guise of that policy Germanic states along with the Vatican tried to catholicize as much as possible Slavs in order to unleash their well know strategy divide and rule, by creating hostility amongst Slavs according to the principle Orthodox vs Catholics, which was a precondition for conflicts between Catholic and Orthodox Slavs. This was a result of a colonial engineering by Western colonial powers.  

However you approach the matter, to claim that Orthodox states occupied Catholic countries and obligated their state and military organs to conduct forced conversions is simply not true. On the other hand, Germanic states and other Catholic Empires did occupy Orthodox territories and systematically converted many Slavs to their state religion. They even carried out exterminations of Orthodox people in both world wars. I am not saying this to cause conflicts between the two groups. However, I think that colonialism of Eastern-Europa has been undermined by the official history, especially in the Western world.
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2012, 04:11:49 PM »

However you approach the matter, to claim that Orthodox states occupied Catholic countries and obligated their state and military organs to conduct forced conversions is simply not true.

Facts disagree with your BS propaganda, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Che%C5%82m_Eparchy
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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2012, 04:12:59 PM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

I take that as the compliment I'm sure was intended. However, I think there are a lot more than just a select few who "take it seriously".

There are so many good, holy people in my own parish that I can only ask God to help me be one-tenth as holy as them. There's a lady with cancer who's undergone repeated bouts of chemo yet always has a bright smile on her face and a cheerful word for all. There's families caring for loved ones with various illnesses or conditions that would bring most of us to despair, yet they shine with love and happiness.

Even outside of the church I have met people who didn't have any use at all for "religion", and yet the light of Christ shone through them so brilliantly it was hard to understand how they themselves couldn't see it! I think of woman I knew in the '80's who was an atheist and a prostitute; yet when she became pregnant and was told she must have an abortion to save her life, she refused and said, "No! My baby deserves a fair chance, just like I had!" She did die, and her baby died less than 24 hours later. But in her courage and her conviction that she was giving life to a BABY and not just a clump of cells, she taught me more about life than my 24+ years of Catholic training had ever done.

Don't mean to get all flowery, just something I was thinking about on this cold, rainy California afternoon ... (and may I humbly add, "eternal memory" to Stephanie and Denise ... )
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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2012, 04:28:28 PM »

MK defending the RC's in this thread, Marc defending Isa in another. I can't believe my own eyes. I think everyone is in a belated christmas spirit.
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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2012, 04:40:02 PM »


Facts disagree with your BS propaganda, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Che%C5%82m_Eparchy

I am not sure what happened. But I assume that my last post in this thread has been deleted? I will try therefore again.

I am not familiar with this happening from the 19th century. However, I should also check if from a Russian source, given that many history books of Western origin contain frauds. We should not rely too much on official history, if we seek the truth.

You cannot say that this small detail from history outweighs the massive catholicizations as organized and carried out by Western colonial powers for centuries long.
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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 04:42:42 PM »

I wouldn't call 260 k of people "small detail". I know you are not familiar with that, so please, stop posting about things you have no clue about.
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« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2012, 04:58:47 PM »

I wouldn't call 260 k of people "small detail". I know you are not familiar with that, so please, stop posting about things you have no clue about.

Since I am a Serb I do not know about every detail in Russia, brother. I have nothing against Catholics or Eastern-Catholics. I do have my opinion which I support with facts. It is my right to also consider the matter from a Russian source before I draw conclusions.

Massive conversions into Catholicism as had been done by Western colonial Empires on Orthodox and non-Orthodox territories, had not been performed by Orthodox countries on Catholic territories. You should be familiar with the fact that at least million Serbs were catholicized by the West throughout centuries.
Writings by catholic priests and Venetian, Hungarian and German state organs from the middle ages, provide us a lot of proof of such things.

Do not forget about other many Slavs who were germanized. You should also be aware that Austria in the 18th century catholicized Slavs from the Adriatic coast until Ukraine. You cannot claim that Orthodox countries used such policies towards Catholics in their countries to such a great extent. That is a strange thesis, which is not even worth to be discussed.
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« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2012, 05:14:31 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?
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« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2012, 05:22:44 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?

If you compare this to millions of Slavs from Middle and Eastern-Europe who were catholicized and even denationalized by several colonial and Roman Catholic Empires as Germany, Hungary, Austria, Republic of Venice, etc as well as with millions of native Americans and others who were also by force catholicized, it simply does not outweigh, neither is to be compared with what you are referring too...

Do not become offended or think wrong about me. I respect Catholics and I think that Catholics should preserve their further existing and I do not like to see that many Catholics nowadays are abandoning the Church and become atheists, etc. But we must be well aware of the history as it happened, so that we can avoid mistakes in the future. If not, foreign powers will manipulate again with us Slavic brother.
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« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2012, 06:24:02 PM »

I may just have to add myself to the people referred to in the OP, if this keeps up.

If Almighty God plays your political games, though, maybe we are all doomed.
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« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2012, 06:39:14 PM »

How 260 k is not massive?

If you compare this to millions of Slavs from Middle and Eastern-Europe who were catholicized and even denationalized by several colonial and Roman Catholic Empires as Germany, Hungary, Austria, Republic of Venice, etc as well as with millions of native Americans and others who were also by force catholicized, it simply does not outweigh, neither is to be compared with what you are referring too...

Do not become offended or think wrong about me. I respect Catholics and I think that Catholics should preserve their further existing and I do not like to see that many Catholics nowadays are abandoning the Church and become atheists, etc. But we must be well aware of the history as it happened, so that we can avoid mistakes in the future. If not, foreign powers will manipulate again with us Slavic brother.
Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.
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« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2012, 09:11:05 PM »

I may just have to add myself to the people referred to in the OP, if this keeps up.

If Almighty God plays your political games, though, maybe we are all doomed.

I'm pretty sure that, thankfully, God doesn't play any political games.  That seems to be the purview of us sinful humans, usually egged on by the demons.
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« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2012, 09:13:47 PM »

I know that some terrible things have happened in history. For which, I am very sorry.

But if we keep wanting revenge against one another, what good can we do?

 Cry
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« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »

I know that some terrible things have happened in history. For which, I am very sorry.

But if we keep wanting revenge against one another, what good can we do?

 Cry

You're right.  It's really difficult to hold both love and a desire for vengeance, or bitterness in your heart.  Nigh unto impossible, I would think.  We must know history to try to avoid making some of the same mistakes others have, but we must stop throwing it in each others' faces.  No love can come from that. 
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« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2012, 10:02:49 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 
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« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2012, 10:09:16 PM »

username! - your last post is what I think.

I can add that even in Poland I have similar observations on Latins who attend (or visit from time to time) Greek Catholic Churches. Those not so ware don't participate in Communion. But those more aware, for example, regret that Greek Catholics come back to eastern tradition of not kneeling in various moments, especially during the Communion. Especially those, who love Tridentine Mass, in some way appreciate Eastern Catholic, but they would like latinized them. Or when Greek Catholics occasionally celebrate Liturgy in Roman Catholic Churches (e.g see 2 ways of giving the Communion in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9YgnJMEU" >this video[/url]  - 1:51:00 Eastern and 1:53:46 Latin, without Blood  Roll Eyes) .

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?
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« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2012, 10:11:21 PM »

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
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« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2012, 10:16:32 PM »

I firmly believe that Greek Catholicism is for the descendants of the various false unions that forced the faithful under rome.  That and those that marry into it.  And a select few that take it seriously like Theistgal.

I take that as the compliment I'm sure was intended. However, I think there are a lot more than just a select few who "take it seriously".

There are so many good, holy people in my own parish that I can only ask God to help me be one-tenth as holy as them. There's a lady with cancer who's undergone repeated bouts of chemo yet always has a bright smile on her face and a cheerful word for all. There's families caring for loved ones with various illnesses or conditions that would bring most of us to despair, yet they shine with love and happiness.

Even outside of the church I have met people who didn't have any use at all for "religion", and yet the light of Christ shone through them so brilliantly it was hard to understand how they themselves couldn't see it! I think of woman I knew in the '80's who was an atheist and a prostitute; yet when she became pregnant and was told she must have an abortion to save her life, she refused and said, "No! My baby deserves a fair chance, just like I had!" She did die, and her baby died less than 24 hours later. But in her courage and her conviction that she was giving life to a BABY and not just a clump of cells, she taught me more about life than my 24+ years of Catholic training had ever done.

Don't mean to get all flowery, just something I was thinking about on this cold, rainy California afternoon ... (and may I humbly add, "eternal memory" to Stephanie and Denise ... )

Like I would be anything other than nice to you Theistgal.  I think we've posted on more than one message board at the same time for over the last 7 years... Smiley 
Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 
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« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2012, 08:54:13 AM »


Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 

The recording that is played in the beginning is from Ukraine (I think from Uniovo monastery), but well-known among Greek Catholics (and people interested in the rite) in Poland.

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?

No, they're not Russians. As I said, this area was used to be Orthodox, Biala Podlaska it's Podlachia (well, after reorganisation of Polish provinces officcialy not, Kostomloty of course still being part of Podlachia). It's difficult to say with whom they identify themselves. Some of them for sure consider themselves Polish (probably the majority), but some of them I suppose call themselves Podlashuks (= people from Podlachia), so it's the same as with Orthodox from Podlachia. Hm, but indeed, they sing "BlaGoslovi" a bit stronger than Orthodox in Poland, that it sound more like Russian than pronunciation than a sound between "g" and "h".

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
Receiving Communion on knees!  Shocked I thought there is a tendency to bringing life to Eastern tradition and putting off latinizations.

Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 

The same in Poland. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is strongly national, so they welcome Polish interested in Eastern rites in offish way. I was always welcomed warmly by Greek Catholic probably only because I'm of Serbian origin. But Polish Orthodox Church, generally is much more open. Everyone can be receive. But to join Greek Catholic Church, probably you should learn Ukrainian language, customs and so on. And maybe find in you genealogical a Ukrainian ancestor, so then you would be welcomed openly, because you want to revive Ukrainian and Greek Catholic spirit in you and your family.
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« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2012, 12:07:39 PM »

Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.

Actually reunifications in the lands merged into Russia were much less harsher than the one in Congress Poland.
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« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »

Don't forget

May 25th - Commemoration of the Reunion of the 3,000,000 Uniates with the Orthodox Church at Vilna in 1831.
http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

Of course it should read more like 1,600,000 at Polotsk in 1839.

Actually reunifications in the lands merged into Russia were much less harsher than the one in Congress Poland.

Just pointing out to our friend that the Russian Orthodox have a commemoration for the return of 3 million, not an insignificant number.
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« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2012, 09:06:58 PM »

You have to be "nash". 

Don't know what you're talking about; I never watched the show.
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« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2012, 10:16:13 PM »

You have to be "nash". 

Don't know what you're talking about; I never watched the show.

It is Rusyn for "one of us".
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« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2012, 10:19:13 PM »

I guess we are "nash" if you accept the "EC as a bridge to Orthodoxy" theory. Grin
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« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2012, 10:43:53 PM »

I thought yuns guys were talking about Niecy Nash  Grin
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« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2012, 11:25:30 PM »

Hi SlobodnaKrajina. I don't want to get into the U-word issue, but I'd like to ask: do you think that all Eastern Catholics are Greek Catholics (or Byzantine Catholics or whatever term you choose)?

Hello friend,

I think that if we take history into consideration, we will notice that the forefathers of Eastern-Catholics first recognized the pope and subsequently gradually were alienated from Orthodoxy. This was surely the case on the ethnic territories of Serbs (the Balkans).

So then I take it that you have never heard of the Maronite Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, or the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church? (Although they are less well-known that the Greek Catholics, nearly half of all Eastern Catholics belong to one of those 3 churches.)
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« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2012, 11:27:27 PM »

I guess we are "nash" if you accept the "EC as a bridge to Orthodoxy" theory. Grin

Ah, now I see.  Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2012, 11:39:09 PM »

But I think (if I'm mistaken, please correct me) that there is a difference between Roman Church (that means with latin rite) and Catholic Church (all sui juris Churches, Roman, Greek Catholic etc.).

This is, indeed, a mistake, and sadly it is one that is very often repeated. (More often, I think, than equally erroneous phrases like "22 Eastern Catholic Rites" etc.) The correct terms are Roman Rite and Latin Church, not "Roman Church" and "Latin Rite".
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« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2012, 01:35:10 PM »


Whoever produced the music that is an outstanding example of Galician singing.  I have/had the liturgy from these guys.  Who is it?  The recorded music that it.  I know it is Polish Greek Catholic monks.. at least I think so. 

The recording that is played in the beginning is from Ukraine (I think from Uniovo monastery), but well-known among Greek Catholics (and people interested in the rite) in Poland.

I like how they say Hospodi pomiluj but during the antiphon they say "BlaGoslovi" and the priest says "drooG grooG a..."  Are they Russian or Polish?

No, they're not Russians. As I said, this area was used to be Orthodox, Biala Podlaska it's Podlachia (well, after reorganisation of Polish provinces officcialy not, Kostomloty of course still being part of Podlachia). It's difficult to say with whom they identify themselves. Some of them for sure consider themselves Polish (probably the majority), but some of them I suppose call themselves Podlashuks (= people from Podlachia), so it's the same as with Orthodox from Podlachia. Hm, but indeed, they sing "BlaGoslovi" a bit stronger than Orthodox in Poland, that it sound more like Russian than pronunciation than a sound between "g" and "h".

When Dominika says "Ukrainian Rite" she means the halychnya recension, like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLYXKeRmNI&playnext=1&list=PLC136AC22A619B9BB

Minus being Greek Catholic this is still what in many ways my family parish sounds like.  But the people left/that came back sing only in Church Slavonic.  Back when it was bigger it was all Ukrainian with Slavonic here and there.  And they sang like this, this type of singing.  But still 70% of the services are sang like this.  But in English and mostly Slavonic.  I don't know why Ukrainian is much easier than Slavonic.
Receiving Communion on knees!  Shocked I thought there is a tendency to bringing life to Eastern tradition and putting off latinizations.

Where I'm from that's all it is, descendants, those that marry in and a select few.  And trust me especially in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes it can be EXTREMELY hard to join even if you are a Roman Catholic. You have to be "nash".  The Orthodox in the area are much more open to visitors and inquirers in my area.  Even the Ukrainians. This at least is in my area.  The Ruthenians are the same.  They tolerate Roman Catholic tridentine mass folk playing "this church feels nice" better than the Ukrainians in the area. 

The same in Poland. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is strongly national, so they welcome Polish interested in Eastern rites in offish way. I was always welcomed warmly by Greek Catholic probably only because I'm of Serbian origin. But Polish Orthodox Church, generally is much more open. Everyone can be receive. But to join Greek Catholic Church, probably you should learn Ukrainian language, customs and so on. And maybe find in you genealogical a Ukrainian ancestor, so then you would be welcomed openly, because you want to revive Ukrainian and Greek Catholic spirit in you and your family.

My family is from  województwo podkarpackie/Podkarpackie Voivodeship/ Podkarpacie Province.  Specifically the Wetlina area.  Maybe if one day I come over to visit you and Mike can come there with me and we can ski.  Because in 1946-48 In Operation Vistula the area was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ukrainians who were Orthodox.  It's a fine national park area now.  I want to visit someday.  It is in the middle of absolutely nowhere and near UA and Slovakia. 
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« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2012, 01:41:28 PM »

No my Ukrainian Orthodox parish does not receive communion on the knees.  They do kneel for the Octe Nash and the Anafora.  
The Byzantine Catholics/Ruthenian Greek Catholics... sister churches of the Muckachevo Greco Katoliko Cerkva.. they have some people that kneel.  They also will use a paten (small disc on a long handle used by altar server to go under the chin of the person receiving communion).
Not all Greek Catholics use this.  


Like I've said to Mike Kalina before many times; the situation and church atmosphere and customs and so forth are so near what we have and deal with where I live in the USA.  Except for that video you showed of that sort of greek catholic/latin video.  No one is like that.
Funny thing is some of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the USA are on the Julian Calender and many are on the complete Gregorian calender.
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« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2012, 02:03:42 PM »

Stated for the record: I like the paten.
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« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »

Short answer, already said here: the ethnic base born into it. Here in their Slavic, industrial home base in America, the Northeast and particularly Pennsylvania, they're endangered (here in Philadelphia they're fewer than upstate), dying, but anyway, they are what they are. After the two waves of conversions to the Orthodox circa 1900 and in the '30s, they have their essentially Latin Catholicism with a modified Eastern liturgy and don't identify with the Orthodox at all. That and the experience of the WWII refugees who are the backbone of some Ukrainian Catholic parishes, the first Eastern Slavs I knew (30 years ago); the Soviets banned their church and tried to herd them into Orthodoxy.

Converts: sure, the ones online often are passing through to Orthodoxy. As has been written here, they want to do what Rome happens to tell the Eastern Catholics to do, be just like the Orthodox liturgically and express Catholicism in Orthodox terms, then they get fed up when they run up against the reality I just sketched above.

Offline you get a mix among the convert minority: born Roman Riters who fall in love with Orthodoxy but have nothing against Catholic doctrine, the online 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who've turned against post-schism Rome and understandably soon leave, and refugees from Vatican II/the Novus Ordo going to the only sound Catholic church in town. They've become the majority in some Ruthenian parishes, keeping them from closing.

Ukrainian nationalism = the Ukrainian Catholic Church = old Polish Galicia, one of the places the immigrants 100 years ago came from (the other being Ruthenia, their cousins) and which Stalin stole during WWII (ditto Ruthenia, but WWI basically ended Ruthenian immigration*; they're Americans). The rest of the country's like Russia proper, Russian-speaking (everybody from Kiev I've met) and Sovietized secular but with a minority of practicing Orthodox.

Greeks and Russians likely won't pressure you to convert; they have nothing to prove. They're happy being Greek or Russian and understand if you're happy being Irish or Italian Catholic, etc.

*Got to talk to a living treasure while she was still with us, a Ruthenian immigrant who happened to come over after the war. She described her home area, then part of Poland like Galicia, as it was in the '30s. 'We were all Greek Catholic' but for some reason she ended up Orthodox (marriage?). Village churches with miraculous shrines the people would walk on pilgrimage to.
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« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2012, 07:32:10 PM »

Stated for the record: I like the paten.

Cool. Every man is entitled to his opinion.  Yes in English man and his/him means men and women. 
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