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Author Topic: 'Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse' - Richard Dawkins  (Read 3051 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 23, 2012, 05:06:38 PM »

'Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse': Latest incendiary claim made by atheist professor Richard Dawkins
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2251963/Being-raised-Catholic-worse-child-abuse-Latest-incendiary-claim-atheist-professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

Ah the atheist fundy loon strikes again. Stop being dumb, Dick.
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 05:07:39 PM »

That's not really new, he said it in his book The God Delusion a few years ago.
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 05:12:51 PM »

He really has a lot of arrogance to speak about things that are outside his field of expertise. I wouldn't presume to know so much about science that I would argue with him about it, so why does he presume to know so much about spirituality and religion to make such ridiculous and sweeping statements about it? I know that it is not just atheists that are arrogant. I can't stand arrogant religious fanatics either, but arrogant atheists really get under my skin.
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 05:13:05 PM »

I am 33 and what is this?  Cool
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 05:32:28 PM »

I made it through. Lots of people do.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 05:37:10 PM »

And Dawkins basis this on some dumb stereotypes, right?
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 06:11:20 PM »

Oh please, being raised Protestant is A LOT worse than being raised Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics are generally sensible people tbh, whereas the craziness and weirdness--which I would classify as child abuse to an extent--usually comes from restorationist or really low-Church Evangelical Protestantism.

EDIT:

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse. Then again, I would also say that this could also apply to the strict materialism that atheists may try to indoctrinate their kids with.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 06:13:37 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 06:17:53 PM »

Oh please, being raised Protestant is A LOT worse than being raised Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics are generally sensible people tbh, whereas the craziness and weirdness--which I would classify as child abuse to an extent--usually comes from restorationist or really low-Church Evangelical Protestantism.

EDIT:

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse. Then again, I would also say that this could also apply to the strict materialism that atheists may try to indoctrinate their kids with.

Knew it, knew you couldnt take a chance to potshot Protestants.


To add some substance to it, I dont exactly disagree with you up until your edit, but i know some God fearing and good friends of mine, who were Protestant.

Re your edit, while I dont have kids, i know that, when they do come with my fiancée(at which point, my wife), theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 06:27:23 PM »

And Dawkins basis this on some dumb stereotypes, right?

Yes, himself.
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 06:30:41 PM »

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child. 

Now what?  Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 06:30:53 PM »

i know that, when they do come with my fiancée(at which point, my wife),

Wait. You're engaged?  Shocked
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 07:03:57 PM »

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote
Now what?  Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 07:04:15 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 07:28:26 PM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 07:41:25 PM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Right on the same page with JamesR, then, eh  Grin?
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 07:41:45 PM »


You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 07:45:03 PM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children.  Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises.  Some people think children are capable of raising themselves.   Some people are insane.
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 07:50:33 PM »

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote
Now what?  Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.


"Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone  me--not even children as a child. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child  me to attend Liturgy  church will do  did nothing more but cause them me to resent Orthodoxy church, and to feel like you do not love or accept them I did not have their love and acceptance."


Fixed that for you, JamesR.  I think your negative experiences with church may have had as much to do with your relationship with your parents, if not more so, than anything else.  Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion.  Deal with it.
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 07:51:07 PM »


You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

+1
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 07:51:29 PM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children.  Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises.  Some people think children are capable of raising themselves.   Some people are insane.

+1, again.
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 08:07:43 PM »

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote
Now what?  Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.


"Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone  me--not even children as a child. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child  me to attend Liturgy  church will do  did nothing more but cause them me to resent Orthodoxy church, and to feel like you do not love or accept them I did not have their love and acceptance."


Fixed that for you, JamesR.  I think your negative experiences with church may have had as much to do with your relationship with your parents, if not more so, than anything else.  Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion.  Deal with it.
+1
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2012, 08:12:04 PM »

I have yet to understand why anyone even listens/reads Dawkins.  He is an angry little man, nothing more.  Any accomplishment he has made is overshadowed by this fact.
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 12:36:50 AM »

To James,

Eastern Orthodoxy, is not a religion, and it is not a place to be an individual seeking salvation all alone.
We gain salvation as a community of believers who hold one another up through prayer and through the Holy Mysteries of the church. Babies and children need the support of the
Church community to develop their love of Christ through holy baptism, holy communion and holy chrismation. Would you deny an infant or child food, water, shelter or clothing? When you withhold the holy mysteries from a child you are starving them of the spiritual nourishment of the Church. IN time, they will decide to either accept or reject the church as a full grown adult, but until that time you feed the children.
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 12:40:56 AM »


You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

You're insane. When it is a decision that will effect the eternal condition of their soul, you are danged right that it is going to involve the child. Gamble with your own life, not your child's.

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children.  Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises.  Some people think children are capable of raising themselves.   Some people are insane.

How does other people's insanity cover up another form of insanity? Just because others are insane doesn't mean that what you are advocating is not insane.
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« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 12:43:28 AM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 12:44:53 AM »

JamesR, you really think it's "insane "them for a loving parent to teach their child what they believe is the truth, and share one of the most important partsthe of their life with them?
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 12:45:54 AM »

(And sorry about the mishmash post; stupid droid keyboard issues! ):-( )
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 12:49:03 AM »

Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion.  Deal with it.

I'm not denying I had a bad experience. But you'd have to be plain stupid if you would doubt that others don't feel the same way because of having religion forced on them. Take the millions of atheist teenagers in America who sink into depression because their parents won't accept them for who they are and force religion on them, or to the millions of LGBT kids whose parents force them to attend pseudo-scientific dangerous "gay-conversion" therapy precisely because of their intolerance which is rooted in their religion. The point is that a lot of people have bad experiences with religion being forced on them. I find it interesting also that you have no problem with Christians forcing religion on their kids, but I bet that if it was a Muslim or a Buddhist forcing their kid to adhere to Islam or Buddhism and not convert to Christianity, you would think differently.
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 12:51:21 AM »

JamesR, you really think it's "insane "them for a loving parent to teach their child what they believe is the truth, and share one of the most important partsthe of their life with them?

I think it is insane for parents to FORCE their religion on their kids. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is sick, neglectful, vile and truly is a form of child abuse. It is intellectual butchery, shatters free-thinking and deprives your child of the freedom to truly explore and decide upon the question of religion for themselves--the question that will determine their entire life and the condition of their souls. Essentially, by forcing your child to adhere to YOUR religion, you are practically gambling their life on the religion that you think is true, without even giving them a choice in it.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 12:51:43 AM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 12:53:02 AM »

I must be missing something, JamesR, I thought from other threads you are an Orthodox Christian. Why this sudden hatred for teaching religion to children?

Also FWIW I don't think it's unreasonable that a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. parent does the same thing. That's what good parents do, teach their children what they believe to be right and true.
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 12:57:51 AM »


You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

You're insane. When it is a decision that will effect the eternal condition of their soul, you are danged right that it is going to involve the child. Gamble with your own life, not your child's.
Ah, youth, so full of vigor, so short on knowledge and understanding, lacking wisdom from experience.

I remember once thinking I knew more than everyone older than me.  I also remember thinking I knew more about what was best for me than my parents.  Boy was I stupid back then.  I actually had a talk with my oldest about this very thing yesterday.    

What I have found best to deal with attitude (with this specific child) when it gets a little too big is to ask a simple question, knowing I will get a short and simply answer, then I toss in all of the variables which are likely to occur.  Once I see in the facial expression of total confusion and silence lingers in the air for a moment, I end with, “Or, you could just trust me and not have to worry about all that other stuff.”  These discussions usually end with a recharge of, “Dad Knows Best” (You should watch that show, it’s a ringer) and a few months of an obedient child.  

James, I like you, at least in the best way a person can on the internet.  You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful young man.  The problem is, you have far too much attitude and arrogance and nothing to back either up in the real world.  Take it from someone who had to learn some tough lessons the hard way, it’s a very bad combination.  As a parent, I feel confident in saying, “You don’t know Jack.”  As your internet friend, I feel confident in saying, “You may not know as much as you think you know.”  Either way, the choices you make are yours and yours alone, but I have a bad feeling you listen to what you want to hear and ignore the rest when you have no idea what you are talking about.  

Lastly, you will understand if there was no impact in your accusation of my sanity.  Let’s just leave it that.
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2012, 12:58:00 AM »

I must be missing something, JamesR, I thought from other threads you are an Orthodox Christian. Why this sudden hatred for teaching religion to children?

I don't hate teaching religion to kids, I hate forcing religion on kids when they do not want it. The reason being that my parents were pretty backwards religiously and neglected me due to religion in the past.
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 12:59:54 AM »

Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion.  Deal with it.

I'm not denying I had a bad experience. But you'd have to be plain stupid if you would doubt that others don't feel the same way because of having religion forced on them. Take the millions of atheist teenagers in America who sink into depression because their parents won't accept them for who they are and force religion on them, or to the millions of LGBT kids whose parents force them to attend pseudo-scientific dangerous "gay-conversion" therapy precisely because of their intolerance which is rooted in their religion. The point is that a lot of people have bad experiences with religion being forced on them. I find it interesting also that you have no problem with Christians forcing religion on their kids, but I bet that if it was a Muslim or a Buddhist forcing their kid to adhere to Islam or Buddhism and not convert to Christianity, you would think differently.
My advice is stop consuming massive amounts of propaganda by the mouthful.  You may choke.
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2012, 01:00:37 AM »

Well, you should probably read Kerdy's post because it says it all, and much more eloquently than moi. :-)
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2012, 01:04:00 AM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children.  Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises.  Some people think children are capable of raising themselves.   Some people are insane.
Some people do not have children, but fancy that they know all about raising them.

In Dawkins case, I don't know how much he raised his only daughter (he and the mother divorced after a short marriage, not very long after the girl's birth), but he left a record of his indoctrination trying to pass itself off as free thinking in a letter he wrote to her when she was 10.
http://britatheist.blogspot.com/2011/09/richard-dawkins-letter-to-his-daughter.html

Oh, and there's another piece to the puzzle:
Quote
Now Dawkins does a wonderful analysis in his book The Selfish Gene, and again in later papers in more detail, of Roman Catholicism. As I'm sure you know he's pretty vehement about Roman Catholicism, largely because his daughter, when he split up from his wife was educated against his will in a Catholic nunnery and it must have been pretty painful for him to see this process happening. So he spells out what happens in Roman Catholicism.
http://thebary.blogspot.com/2007/03/dawkins-divorce-and-daughter.html
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2012, 01:10:26 AM »


You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

You're insane. When it is a decision that will effect the eternal condition of their soul, you are danged right that it is going to involve the child. Gamble with your own life, not your child's.
Ah, youth, so full of vigor, so short on knowledge and understanding, lacking wisdom from experience.

I remember once thinking I knew more than everyone older than me.  I also remember thinking I knew more about what was best for me than my parents.  Boy was I stupid back then.  I actually had a talk with my oldest about this very thing yesterday.    

What I have found best to deal with attitude (with this specific child) when it gets a little too big is to ask a simple question, knowing I will get a short and simply answer, then I toss in all of the variables which are likely to occur.  Once I see in the facial expression of total confusion and silence lingers in the air for a moment, I end with, “Or, you could just trust me and not have to worry about all that other stuff.”  These discussions usually end with a recharge of, “Dad Knows Best” (You should watch that show, it’s a ringer) and a few months of an obedient child.  

James, I like you, at least in the best way a person can on the internet.  You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful young man.  The problem is, you have far too much attitude and arrogance and nothing to back either up in the real world.  Take it from someone who had to learn some tough lessons the hard way, it’s a very bad combination.  As a parent, I feel confident in saying, “You don’t know Jack.”  As your internet friend, I feel confident in saying, “You may not know as much as you think you know.”  Either way, the choices you make are yours and yours alone, but I have a bad feeling you listen to what you want to hear and ignore the rest when you have no idea what you are talking about.  

Lastly, you will understand if there was no impact in your accusation of my sanity.  Let’s just leave it that.


*sigh* you old folks are so hard to understand sometimes  Huh Either way, you're my friend and I guess I believe you.
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2012, 01:14:41 AM »

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child. 

Now what?  Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Win!
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2012, 03:20:07 AM »

Being raised Heterodox

is worse than child abuse
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2012, 04:13:04 AM »

James:

Even if we concede for the moment, for the sake of argument, that it's always wrong to use force in religious issues, I don't see how you can put using force (which we have conceded is a bad means) to promote Orthodoxy (a good end) in the same category as using it to promote a bad end, like Islam.

Perhaps the ends don't justify the means, but surely bad means to bad ends are worse than bad means to good ends?

Regarding the argument that anyone could say his religion is a good end: Sure, but some of them are wrong. What drives me nuts about you lefties is your trenchant refusal to distinguish between truth and error. It is assumed without proof or even an attempt at justification that we have some kind of ethical obligation to afford every patently false superstition the same privileges possessed by the Truth. And yet, although it is given the treatment of something obviously true, this assumption is anything but. Quite the contrary; on its face it appears ridiculous.

Now, maybe it's wrong to force your children to participate in the one true form of worship. I don't know. But it seems to me that your assumed moral equivalence between that and forcing them to worship false gods and practice wicked superstitions is unjustified.

EDIT: And Dawkins is an arrogant attention whore with his head permanently stuck in his hindquarters whom the thinking population of the world would do well to ignore henceforth.
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2012, 04:33:39 AM »

How do you expect to be respected with such gross statement ?
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2012, 05:23:33 AM »

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.
Problem is we are all born into a "religion", so Dawkins is talking nonsense as usual.
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2012, 05:33:14 AM »

I have had to read Dawkins because his development of the idea of the meme has implications for some of my linguistics work, and...yeah, I don't really get him, either. His earlier work (from before he became so ideologically/narrowly connected to this one pet issue) isn't bad, but I haven't seen anything in any of his popular writing against religion that would show why he is so beloved by masses of idiots. It's like "The Secret" for nihilists: Everybody loves it because it tells them that they're the center of the universe, even if that is absolutely ridiculous and there's no substance to the actual ideas being expressed.

And James, for the love of all that is good in the world, either start having kids and raising them or shut up about what's wrong or right to do as a parent. And thank your parents for raising you within a church and a faith. Even if you don't understand or like that they did that, a time will come when you'll realize what they've given you, and want to thank them for it. Do it now, while they're still around to hear it. Heck, do it now while you're still here to do it.
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2012, 05:55:18 AM »

Do atheists even care what Dawkins says?
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« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2012, 08:26:44 AM »

Do atheists even care what Dawkins says?
Most atheists I know, probably don't know who he is.
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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2012, 08:33:11 AM »

I miss stashko in this thread.
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« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2012, 11:05:35 AM »

I miss stashko in this thread.

 police
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« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2012, 11:15:55 AM »

Well,  I think Alpo said what stashko would have. Grin
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