Author Topic: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?  (Read 1032 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« on: July 28, 2018, 11:40:54 AM »
In a sermon on the Birth of our Mother Mary, St. Andrew of Crete suggests the Theotokos was, at least, born immaculate, pure, all beautiful. And that She was a restoration of humanity to her original state, a model of divinization, holier and more endowed with grace than Eve of old when She came forth to be born. Can Catholics and Orthodox agree Mother Mary was Immaculate in Her birth? This is PG 97: 809-812, Sermon 1 on the Birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Also, some Orthodox have said Mary's sanctification happened at the Annunciation? Can anyone explain the patristic basis for that?

"Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our Nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns Immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human Nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this Nature recovers in Her Person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our Nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation."

Thoughts?
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,916
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 12:03:16 PM »
Immaculation conception like a serious advantage concerning birth
The Sign and Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 10:13:05 PM »
As long as you proclaim that she was immaculate without divine intervention.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,386
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 10:54:29 PM »
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,415
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 02:30:42 AM »
In a sermon on the Birth of our Mother Mary, St. Andrew of Crete suggests the Theotokos was, at least, born immaculate, pure, all beautiful. And that She was a restoration of humanity to her original state, a model of divinization, holier and more endowed with grace than Eve of old when She came forth to be born. Can Catholics and Orthodox agree Mother Mary was Immaculate in Her birth? This is PG 97: 809-812, Sermon 1 on the Birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

In using this sermon as a means to persuade Orthodox to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, you seem to forget a few things.  First of all, Eastern hymnographical texts and homilies are full of poetical, rhetorical and dare I say, at times emotional exaggeration.  For example, when the Orthodox pray to the Theotokos in the Great Paraklesis (used in the Dormition fast) words to the effect that she alone is their only hope, do you suppose that they mean this "stand alone" literally, without any implicit reference to Christ etc.?
http://www.omhksea.org/2012/07/the-service-of-the-great-paraklesis-to-the-most-holy-theotokos/
Hymnographers have ways of underlining when they want to emphasize that a liturgical text is more doctrinal in nature, for example by labeling it as a dogmaticon or calling attention to it in another way.

More importantly, you appear to ignore that the East does not share the strong Western tendency to equate original sin with original guilt.  Eastern homilists and hymnographers would surely have been ready to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception...except that in a theological world where what humans inherit from Adam is mortality and not guilt, it makes absolutely no sense.  There is no doubt whatsoever that Eastern Christian theologians view the Theotokos as being mortal, and therefore fully one of us.  And she needed a Savior, just like the rest of us.  The remarkable thing is how with God's help she accepted His will for her and lived in a dynamic relationship of Grace with God.  We acclaim her in Orthodoxy as being "more honourable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim" not just because of her great holiness, but also as a way of pointing joyously to the fact that it is possible for all humans to follow in her obedience and attain theosis and thus attain to a greater glory than the highest angels...how awe-inspiring!   She is our great example and encourager in this.  She attained this glory as one of us, not as a being who was somehow shielded from solidarity with the rest of the human race. 

Many Orthodox accept that the Theotokos lived a completely sinless life in the Eastern sense of this: fully subject to the consequences of the sin of Adam (ie death) though not herself sinful.  However, St. John Chrysostom seems to be among those who think that the Theotokos was not completely sinless.  (See his Hom. 44 in Matthew, PG 57:464 and Hom. 21 in John 2, PG 59:131.)


Quote
Also, some Orthodox have said Mary's sanctification happened at the Annunciation? Can anyone explain the patristic basis for that?


This is an erroneous belief that seems to have its origins in Lutheranism and as far as I can tell is found in Orthodox writings beginning no more than a couple of hundred years ago, if that.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 02:56:48 AM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 06:47:08 AM »
Pravoslavbob, thanks for that. I'm very happy that we agree, then, that the dear Mother of God and of Christians is personally sinless. Wonderful. I like the way you point out how She is a model for us also of the theosis we are all called to attain, as She was even in this life a living Saint who never sinned, as are the blessed in heaven. She shows us what it means to live in union with God in every moment of our lives, to love Him with a perfect Love, and never sway from His will. On account of Her sinless life, as you say, She is by far more glorious than the Seraphim and more honorable than the Cherubim beyond comparison.

I'm happy also that we reject together the opinion that Mary was only sanctified on the eve of the Annunciation. In the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew, it is clear Mary is already sinless Saint among saints, purer than the purest at age 3. Every day, She increased in holiness and in grace, was most frequent in prayer and in study of the law of God, was most elegant in singing, most lowly in humility, most perfect in all Wisdom. Never spoke evil and he who who in sickness touched Her went home cured. Thus, we can understand why St. Gabriel in fact recognizes Her as his Queen and superior in grace and salutes Her reverently, "Hail, full of grace", some 12 years later.

Thus far we agree. It seems that our main area of disagreement is the nature of original sin. To be clear, as the Catechism says, we do not consider original sin to be a personal fault. We consider it to be the privation of sanctifying grace which human nature inherits from Adam and Eve after the fall. One of the ancient canons of Carthage, approved by the Council of Ephesus, says original sin is the inheritance of the death of the soul from Adam, giving this as the true, universal and ancient interpretation of the passage in Rom 5, where St. Paul says death passed to all from Adam. Original sin that is washed away refers to the soul born "dead" or without grace.

Many of the Fathers, St. Irenaeus, St. Ephraem etc say the Theotokos is the cause of our life, i.e. by Her faith loving obedience to God's will, She brought back the life of grace to the human race. Some of the holy Greek Fathers like St. Germanus of Constantinople say Mary had the possibility not to die but freely chose to. St. John Damascene in his homily on the Dormition of the Theotokos says the Mother of life could not inherit the corruption of unending death, but was now to be raised body and soul into heaven, as both Catholics and Orthodox believe. Mary obtained this privilege because She preserved and increased all the gifts of grace received from the Lord's goodness.

Originally, God willed all the children of men and women would be born pure and immaculate, just as they now are in baptism, with indwelling sanctifying grace. But after they fell, they could not give to their children what they lacked. Thus, God willed to redeem and re-create, as it were, humanity through a New Eve like the first Eve in every sense. Thus, we hold, He gave her that fullness of grace that Eve had before the fall; with the difference that She obeyed Him and preserved it, while Eve of old had not. Would you disagree, Pravoslavbob? Essentially the doctrine is that Mary was born in a "baptized" state, already full of grace and indwelt by the Spirit, to be New Eve. Let me know your thoughts. God bless.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 09:18:01 AM »
Pravoslavbob, thanks for that. I'm very happy that we agree, then, that the dear Mother of God and of Christians is personally sinless. Wonderful. I like the way you point out how She is a model for us also of the theosis we are all called to attain, as She was even in this life a living Saint who never sinned, as are the blessed in heaven. She shows us what it means to live in union with God in every moment of our lives, to love Him with a perfect Love, and never sway from His will. On account of Her sinless life, as you say, She is by far more glorious than the Seraphim and more honorable than the Cherubim beyond comparison.

I'm happy also that we reject together the opinion that Mary was only sanctified on the eve of the Annunciation. In the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew, it is clear Mary is already sinless Saint among saints, purer than the purest at age 3. Every day, She increased in holiness and in grace, was most frequent in prayer and in study of the law of God, was most elegant in singing, most lowly in humility, most perfect in all Wisdom. Never spoke evil and he who who in sickness touched Her went home cured. Thus, we can understand why St. Gabriel in fact recognizes Her as his Queen and superior in grace and salutes Her reverently, "Hail, full of grace", some 12 years later.

Thus far we agree. It seems that our main area of disagreement is the nature of original sin. To be clear, as the Catechism says, we do not consider original sin to be a personal fault. We consider it to be the privation of sanctifying grace which human nature inherits from Adam and Eve after the fall. One of the ancient canons of Carthage, approved by the Council of Ephesus, says original sin is the inheritance of the death of the soul from Adam, giving this as the true, universal and ancient interpretation of the passage in Rom 5, where St. Paul says death passed to all from Adam. Original sin that is washed away refers to the soul born "dead" or without grace.

Many of the Fathers, St. Irenaeus, St. Ephraem etc say the Theotokos is the cause of our life, i.e. by Her faith loving obedience to God's will, She brought back the life of grace to the human race. Some of the holy Greek Fathers like St. Germanus of Constantinople say Mary had the possibility not to die but freely chose to. St. John Damascene in his homily on the Dormition of the Theotokos says the Mother of life could not inherit the corruption of unending death, but was now to be raised body and soul into heaven, as both Catholics and Orthodox believe. Mary obtained this privilege because She preserved and increased all the gifts of grace received from the Lord's goodness.

Originally, God willed all the children of men and women would be born pure and immaculate, just as they now are in baptism, with indwelling sanctifying grace. But after they fell, they could not give to their children what they lacked. Thus, God willed to redeem and re-create, as it were, humanity through a New Eve like the first Eve in every sense. Thus, we hold, He gave her that fullness of grace that Eve had before the fall; with the difference that She obeyed Him and preserved it, while Eve of old had not. Would you disagree, Pravoslavbob? Essentially the doctrine is that Mary was born in a "baptized" state, already full of grace and indwelt by the Spirit, to be New Eve. Let me know your thoughts. God bless.

 Orthodox don't teach that Adam and Eve had santified grace in the garden.  Theophilus of Antioch (2nd Century) posits that Adam and Eve were created neither immortal nor mortal. They were created with the potential to become either through obedience or disobedience.
Man is no longer sheltered from knowledge of good and evil. Santification after the fall is much greater than what Adam and eve had.
The fathers state that Christ had to come even if there were no fall.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,815
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 06:23:06 PM »


This, I've said it, basing on Semitic roots, in two other thread that you'd created.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 12:43:38 AM »
Yes, I think we discussed it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,73032.msg1499766.html#msg1499766 and elsewhere.

But there seems to be 2 different views among Orthodox Christians here, Dominika. I've read two views from Orthodox Priests also. (1) The first is that Mary was personally sinless, but born with ancestral sin (cleansed at the Annunciation - for an example of this view, see below) (2) The second is that Mary was not personally sinless, but a sinner, who was later cleansed from that sin; a saved sinner, so to say, and in this way She became the Panagia/All-Holy/Stainless One.

St. Andrew's Greek Orthodox Church: "Although we confess her as Ever-Virgin, spotless, stainless and undefiled from any personal sins, she was not free of Ancestral (Original) Sin. We believe that she was cleansed from Ancestral Sin at the Annunciation (Evangelismos) when the Holy Spirit descended upon her and she conceived the Incarnate Logos/Word of God Supernaturally. Addressing her as "Panagia," meaning "Above all Saints," we proclaim and confess that she surpassed all Righteous men and women of all times in Holiness. However, she was not completely sinless as having been born of Adam, she was guilty of Ancestral (Original) Sin, although her Son, the God-Man, is the only Sinless One." http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2016/8/1/the-mother-of-god-theotokos

Correct me if I am wrong, Dominika, but I think you said you agree with (1) in the last post on that thread. "we do believe the Theotokos had no actual sin, she was born, as were all the descendants of Adam, with the effect of sin upon her human nature." Empasis is mine. We don't know precisely. At least in Polish if you say "I believe" it's your opinion that may not be true, but it can be."

For Catholics, we agree that Mary was Ever-Virgin, Spotless, Stainless, and undefiled from any personal sins; however, if She was cleansed from ancestral sin only at the Annunciation, then, Dominikia, (1) how does St. Andrew of Crete above say human Nature recovers in Her Person all its ancient privileges when She was born? (2) how does St. Matthew's infancy Gospel suggest She was sinless, not speaking any evil, and in the state of grace, daily advancing in perfection, at age 3? In Catholic understanding, if you're not cleansed from ancestral sin, you're not yet in the state of grace.

Quote
And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when she was three years old, she walked with a step so mature, she spoke so perfectly, and spent her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at her, and wondered; and she was not reckoned a young infant, but as it were a grown-up person of thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into her face. And she occupied herself constantly with her wool-work, so that she in her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that she had set for herself: From the morning to the third hour she remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth she was occupied with her weaving; and from the ninth she again applied herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand she used to receive food; and thus she became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, she did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue. She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw her angry, nor heard her speaking evil. All her speech was so full of grace, that her God was acknowledged to be in her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and she was anxious lest by any word of hers she should sin with regard to her companions. Then she was afraid lest in her laughter, or the sound of her beautiful voice, she should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, she should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in her salutation, she might cease from praising God; if any one saluted her, she used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed herself only with the food which she daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which she obtained from the priests she divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with her, and they most diligently obeyed her. If any one who was unwell touched her, the same hour he went home cured.

Was Mary not yet in the state of grace? Or is ancestral sin being cleansed not dependent upon being in the state of grace?

Tzimis, we agree. Catholic theologians say Adam and Eve were created with negative immortality (i.e. the possibility of not dying, not the impossibility of dying). They would have to eat of the tree of life habitually to live forever. Then, they could choose not to die, if they never sinned. Likewise, Eve would have given birth without birth pangs. http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/carthage_canons_on_sin_and_grace.htm The first canon of Carthage, 418, mentions that Adam need not have died if they had not sinned. The second canon states everyone has inherited the death of the soul from Adam. This death of the soul is washed away in Baptism. "no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration." See also the Council of Orange under St. Caesarius of Arles which gives the same interpretation of the text of St. Paul.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 08:35:33 AM »
Yes, I think we discussed it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,73032.msg1499766.html#msg1499766 and elsewhere.

But there seems to be 2 different views among Orthodox Christians here, Dominika. I've read two views from Orthodox Priests also. (1) The first is that Mary was personally sinless, but born with ancestral sin (cleansed at the Annunciation - for an example of this view, see below) (2) The second is that Mary was not personally sinless, but a sinner, who was later cleansed from that sin; a saved sinner, so to say, and in this way She became the Panagia/All-Holy/Stainless One.

St. Andrew's Greek Orthodox Church: "Although we confess her as Ever-Virgin, spotless, stainless and undefiled from any personal sins, she was not free of Ancestral (Original) Sin. We believe that she was cleansed from Ancestral Sin at the Annunciation (Evangelismos) when the Holy Spirit descended upon her and she conceived the Incarnate Logos/Word of God Supernaturally. Addressing her as "Panagia," meaning "Above all Saints," we proclaim and confess that she surpassed all Righteous men and women of all times in Holiness. However, she was not completely sinless as having been born of Adam, she was guilty of Ancestral (Original) Sin, although her Son, the God-Man, is the only Sinless One." http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2016/8/1/the-mother-of-god-theotokos

Correct me if I am wrong, Dominika, but I think you said you agree with (1) in the last post on that thread. "we do believe the Theotokos had no actual sin, she was born, as were all the descendants of Adam, with the effect of sin upon her human nature." Empasis is mine. We don't know precisely. At least in Polish if you say "I believe" it's your opinion that may not be true, but it can be."

For Catholics, we agree that Mary was Ever-Virgin, Spotless, Stainless, and undefiled from any personal sins; however, if She was cleansed from ancestral sin only at the Annunciation, then, Dominikia, (1) how does St. Andrew of Crete above say human Nature recovers in Her Person all its ancient privileges when She was born? (2) how does St. Matthew's infancy Gospel suggest She was sinless, not speaking any evil, and in the state of grace, daily advancing in perfection, at age 3? In Catholic understanding, if you're not cleansed from ancestral sin, you're not yet in the state of grace.

Quote
And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when she was three years old, she walked with a step so mature, she spoke so perfectly, and spent her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at her, and wondered; and she was not reckoned a young infant, but as it were a grown-up person of thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into her face. And she occupied herself constantly with her wool-work, so that she in her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that she had set for herself: From the morning to the third hour she remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth she was occupied with her weaving; and from the ninth she again applied herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand she used to receive food; and thus she became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, she did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue. She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw her angry, nor heard her speaking evil. All her speech was so full of grace, that her God was acknowledged to be in her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and she was anxious lest by any word of hers she should sin with regard to her companions. Then she was afraid lest in her laughter, or the sound of her beautiful voice, she should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, she should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in her salutation, she might cease from praising God; if any one saluted her, she used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed herself only with the food which she daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which she obtained from the priests she divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with her, and they most diligently obeyed her. If any one who was unwell touched her, the same hour he went home cured.

Was Mary not yet in the state of grace? Or is ancestral sin being cleansed not dependent upon being in the state of grace?

Tzimis, we agree. Catholic theologians say Adam and Eve were created with negative immortality (i.e. the possibility of not dying, not the impossibility of dying). They would have to eat of the tree of life habitually to live forever. Then, they could choose not to die, if they never sinned. Likewise, Eve would have given birth without birth pangs. http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/carthage_canons_on_sin_and_grace.htm The first canon of Carthage, 418, mentions that Adam need not have died if they had not sinned. The second canon states everyone has inherited the death of the soul from Adam. This death of the soul is washed away in Baptism. "no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration." See also the Council of Orange under St. Caesarius of Arles which gives the same interpretation of the text of St. Paul.
[/b]
What you are suggesting here is total depravity. Orthodox do not believe that Adam and Eve pasted on soul death to future generations. Future generations received physical death as a punishment. While the soul is inclined to sin due to the affects of physical death.

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2018, 08:59:17 AM »
Total Depravity? No, not at all, I am referring to how the ancient Canons interpret that verse in Rom 5, where St. Paul says death has passed to all after Adam's sin. See Canon 2 of Orange for E.G. "Canon 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12). http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/ORANGE.htm

It's clear the Council rejects Total Depravity at the same time: "According to the Catholic Faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him." How do you understand "sin, which is the death of the soul, passed from one man to the whole human race", Tzimis?
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2018, 09:50:08 AM »
You aren't denying total depravity. Your proving it by stating one needs to be baptized in order to remove the stain of sin one receives through generation. Orthodox do not hold this view. We believe everyone will eventually sin but, its there own sin and not Adam and Eves sin. Infants only have the ancestral sin through generation. Which only relates to physical death and not soul death. Orthodox hold to a Synergism theological view. 1 Corinthians 3:9
 Where man is involved in his salvation in synergy with God. Total depravity means that without gods intervention no one can be saved.
If the body and soul is truly dead than of course the virgin would need a doctrine of IC. Not only the Virgin but Christ himself. That is precisely what the doctrine Of the IC is.
Christ and The Virgin marry needed a special grace in order to not have the stain of sin from generation. 

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 10:13:29 AM »
You aren't denying total depravity. Your proving it by stating one needs to be baptized in order to remove the stain of sin one receives through generation. Orthodox do not hold this view. We believe everyone will eventually sin but, its there own sin and not Adam and Eves sin. Infants only have the ancestral sin through generation. Which only relates to physical death and not soul death. Orthodox hold to a Synergism theological view. 1 Corinthians 3:9
 Where man is involved in his salvation in synergy with God. Total depravity means that without gods intervention first no one can be saved.
If the body and soul is truly dead than of course the virgin would need a doctrine of IC. Not only the Virgin but Christ himself. That is precisely what the doctrine Of the IC is.
Christ and The Virgin marry needed a special grace in order to not have the stain of sin from generation.
I made a correction since the modify time was up.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,815
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 04:58:55 PM »
I think Xavier that you still don't understand some terms in Orthodox way and focus on different themes like "cleaning" the sin and grace (a law stuff) instead of effects (toxication of the world by sin).
So, we may quote Church Father and it won't lead us to any conclusion.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,386
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 11:16:00 PM »
Total Depravity?
Yes, the depravity that God creates a soul with sin and aborted and stillborns babies are confided to hell, as Trent and St. Augustine proclaimed.
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2018, 08:35:08 AM »
Quote from: Sharbel
aborted and stillborns babies are confided to hell

Aborted and stillborn babies are indeed born with original sin, but they can be baptized by desire and sanctified in the womb by the Spirit in ways unknown to us; this happened in the case of the Baptist, by the desire of St. Elizabeth or of Mary, and the Church teaches we may piously and prayerfully hope for the same. We may not, however, delay Baptism on this account, after children are born. The Bishops of the Church have placed Imprimaturs on this prayer taught by the Savior in Africa, "Prayer for the Baptism of Aborted Babies (29 July 1998) "Today the blood of innocent children has filled heaven. Their number is too great, too great . . . the wrath of the Eternal Father is about to fall on mankind...Their blood disturbs My Agonizing Heart and increases My agony...Through this prayer, large numbers of innocent unborn babies will be saved. Pray it daily and make it known to the world. Anyone who teaches it will not be lost. Innocent souls in heaven will not let them become lost. I, with My Love and Mercy, will protect them from falling into mortal sin." Heavenly Father, Your love is eternal. In Your ocean of love, You saved the world through Your only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Now look at Your only Son on the Cross Who is constantly bleeding for love of His people, and forgive Your world. Purify and baptize aborted children with the Precious Blood and water from the Sacred Side of Your Son, Jesus Christ, Who hung dead on the Cross for their salvation; in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. May they, through the holy death of Jesus Christ, gain everlasting life, through His wounds be healed and through His Precious Blood be freed. There to rejoice with the saints in heaven. Amen."

And the Magisterium around that time, when the question of aborted babies was specifically proposed to Rome, approved a theological study stating the grounds of hope, and saying, ""What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament.[135] Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to Baptize them into the faith and life of the Church." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Quote from: Tzimis
Your proving it by stating one needs to be baptized in order to remove the stain of sin one receives through generation. Orthodox do not hold this view. We believe everyone will eventually sin but, its there own sin and not Adam and Eves sin. Infants only have the ancestral sin through generation. Which only relates to physical death and not soul death.

With synergism, we agree. God and Man work together, but God is the Vine in Whom we must abide, and we are the branches Whom He enables to bear fruit. How would you define ancestral sin? St. Symeon, the Byzantine theologian, provides a definition very similar to what we believe on original sin. He even uses the terms almost interchangeably.

Total depravity is the error that (1) all the works of non-Christians are sins, this was condemned at Trent, because there are good works of natural virtue, such as Cornelius etc in Scripture, which Orange also notes and (2) even in every supernatural good work of man, man sins at least venially or even mortally. This also the Catholic Church anathematized.

Let me ask you, what change happens in Baptism? What does Baptism remove, if not the stain of original sin? Origen said the Apostles instituted holy Baptism even for infants because they knew the stain of sin was in all, even infants who as yet had no personal sins at all. If we look at those two ancient canons, representing essentially the Church of Africa (Carthage), and of Europe (Orange, in France), it seems the early Church took the text of St. Paul quite at face value.

The two canons state, "sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race" and that of Carthage approved at Ephesus states, "Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration."
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 08:37:24 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 10:04:56 AM »
Quote from: Sharbel
aborted and stillborns babies are confided to hell

Aborted and stillborn babies are indeed born with original sin, but they can be baptized by desire and sanctified in the womb by the Spirit in ways unknown to us; this happened in the case of the Baptist, by the desire of St. Elizabeth or of Mary, and the Church teaches we may piously and prayerfully hope for the same. We may not, however, delay Baptism on this account, after children are born. The Bishops of the Church have placed Imprimaturs on this prayer taught by the Savior in Africa, "Prayer for the Baptism of Aborted Babies (29 July 1998) "Today the blood of innocent children has filled heaven. Their number is too great, too great . . . the wrath of the Eternal Father is about to fall on mankind...Their blood disturbs My Agonizing Heart and increases My agony...Through this prayer, large numbers of innocent unborn babies will be saved. Pray it daily and make it known to the world. Anyone who teaches it will not be lost. Innocent souls in heaven will not let them become lost. I, with My Love and Mercy, will protect them from falling into mortal sin." Heavenly Father, Your love is eternal. In Your ocean of love, You saved the world through Your only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Now look at Your only Son on the Cross Who is constantly bleeding for love of His people, and forgive Your world. Purify and baptize aborted children with the Precious Blood and water from the Sacred Side of Your Son, Jesus Christ, Who hung dead on the Cross for their salvation; in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. May they, through the holy death of Jesus Christ, gain everlasting life, through His wounds be healed and through His Precious Blood be freed. There to rejoice with the saints in heaven. Amen."

And the Magisterium around that time, when the question of aborted babies was specifically proposed to Rome, approved a theological study stating the grounds of hope, and saying, ""What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament.[135] Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to Baptize them into the faith and life of the Church." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Quote from: Tzimis
Your proving it by stating one needs to be baptized in order to remove the stain of sin one receives through generation. Orthodox do not hold this view. We believe everyone will eventually sin but, its there own sin and not Adam and Eves sin. Infants only have the ancestral sin through generation. Which only relates to physical death and not soul death.

With synergism, we agree. God and Man work together, but God is the Vine in Whom we must abide, and we are the branches Whom He enables to bear fruit. How would you define ancestral sin? St. Symeon, the Byzantine theologian, provides a definition very similar to what we believe on original sin. He even uses the terms almost interchangeably.

Total depravity is the error that (1) all the works of non-Christians are sins, this was condemned at Trent, because there are good works of natural virtue, such as Cornelius etc in Scripture, which Orange also notes and (2) even in every supernatural good work of man, man sins at least venially or even mortally. This also the Catholic Church anathematized.

Let me ask you, what change happens in Baptism? What does Baptism remove, if not the stain of original sin? Origen said the Apostles instituted holy Baptism even for infants because they knew the stain of sin was in all, even infants who as yet had no personal sins at all. If we look at those two ancient canons, representing essentially the Church of Africa (Carthage), and of Europe (Orange, in France), it seems the early Church took the text of St. Paul quite at face value.

The two canons state, "sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race" and that of Carthage approved at Ephesus states, "Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration."

Reread that highlighted text above. Who here is stating that baptism is for remission of sin?  Let him be Anathema.
The word Sin here is used differently. Than death through sin.  It seems contradictory unless you read the passage correctly.
There is nothing wrong with the passage you posted. It how you are interpreting it.

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 06:55:58 AM »
Quote from: Tsimis
Reread that highlighted text above. Who here is stating that baptism is for remission of sin?  Let him be Anathema.
The word Sin here is used differently. Than death through sin.  It seems contradictory unless you read the passage correctly. There is nothing wrong with the passage you posted. It how you are interpreting it.

Is that what Carthage is saying? Let's read it again without bolding: "Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration."

So, what does it condemn? (1) Those who deny infants are to be baptized, and those (2) who say infants derive from Adam no original sin. The canon goes on to explain why this is. Someone who denies 2 is denying the form in the Creed, "We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins". If no sin were remitted in infant Baptism, that form would be false; which is wrong. So, some sin is remitted in infant Baptism. What sin? Original sin. That's why it concludes, "on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration". What is in them by generation? Original sin. What is regeneration? Baptism. So, original sin is in all children naturally after the fall by generation and needs to be cleansed by Baptism.

Do we agree, Tzimis? If not, let me know where the disagreement lies. I think you are misunderstanding the canon.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 06:57:12 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2018, 07:39:49 AM »
Quote from: Tsimis
Reread that highlighted text above. Who here is stating that baptism is for remission of sin?  Let him be Anathema.
The word Sin here is used differently. Than death through sin.  It seems contradictory unless you read the passage correctly. There is nothing wrong with the passage you posted. It how you are interpreting it.

Is that what Carthage is saying? Let's read it again without bolding: "Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration."

So, what does it condemn? (1) Those who deny infants are to be baptized, and those (2) who say infants derive from Adam no original sin. The canon goes on to explain why this is. Someone who denies 2 is denying the form in the Creed, "We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins". If no sin were remitted in infant Baptism, that form would be false; which is wrong. So, some sin is remitted in infant Baptism. What sin? Original sin. That's why it concludes, "on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration". What is in them by generation? Original sin. What is regeneration? Baptism. So, original sin is in all children naturally after the fall by generation and needs to be cleansed by Baptism.

Do we agree, Tzimis? If not, let me know where the disagreement lies. I think you are misunderstanding the canon.
The difference lies in the interpretation and what is meant by the word sin. You are ascribing a dual purpose to the word. I am ascribing a single purpose to it. Then you flip back and forth between the meanings when it suits your agenda.

Lets see if St. Symeon agrees with you. Here you see the true meaning of remission of personal sin and that personal sin isn't removed from a person via the sacrament.

“Sacramental Baptism is essential for salvation. Small children baptized by the Holy Spirit are not only sanctified and protected but also entirely freed from the tyranny of the devil. Marked by the seal of the life-giving cross, they become sheep of Christ’s flock and chosen lambs. However, sacramental baptism is not sufficient to attain the fullness of Christian life. You need purification; a second baptism with the Holy Spirit through repentance. Christ said, “John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” - St. Symeon the New Theologian
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 07:50:07 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 08:00:46 AM »
A dual purpose? No, you are mistaken. Catholic theology plainly distinguishes between personal sin and original sin. The two are not the same. What is original sin in its essence? In Catholic doctrine, as St. Thomas says, Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace. It is that privation that is removed. Original sin is not a personal sin.

Nobody said personal sin is removed in Baptism. That is a strawman.

The excerpt you cite from St. Symeon does not mention original sin, but is speaking of the first effects of Baptism, which seals the soul with the Cross, and makes those baptized the flock of Christ; then the Saint speaks of the need of continual sanctification even after Baptism.

Here's an Orthodox source on St. Symeon: "As St. Symeon the New Theologian writes: “Human nature is sinful from its very conception. God did not create man sinful, but pure and holy. But since the first-created Adam lost this garment of sanctity, not from any other sin than pride alone, and became corruptible and mortal, all people also who came from the seed of Adam are participants of the ancestral sin from their very conception and birth. He who has been born in this way, even though he has not yet performed any sin, is already sinful through this ancestral sin.”[1]

This is the teaching of the Orthodox Church. And that is why babies are baptized “for the remission of sins”, even before they have committed any personal sins. So a certain mystery remains: the mystery of inherited, collective guilt that is manifest in the fact that every human being comes into this world already polluted by sin."

From: http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/399/romanides-original-sin/

Baptism of infants is not for the remission of any personal sins, but solely for the removal of original sin.

Edit: CCC on Original sin, "405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle." Very much like St. Symeon and St. Thomas.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 08:02:54 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 08:32:12 AM »
   You are stating that Adam and Eves personal sin is being transferred over to The newly born. When you state that. You are giving sin two meanings. They do have two meanings but, I am keeping them separate while you have merged them. Ancestral sin doesn't relate to any personal sin from Adam and Eve or the child's personal sin. It relates to the byproduct of Adam and Eves sin. Like for instance. If a person has a genetic heart problem. There offspring will inherit that heart problem.
What your doing is saying that the child has a heart problem but, also has the reason why they have the heart problem. Which is the act by which the heart problem occurred. Which is a personal sin. 

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2018, 10:09:38 AM »
This statement is clear: "original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants". So the heart disease is not the child's personal fault, but his inherited nature. I mostly agree with your analogy. So what is the cure and what does Baptism do? It cures the heart disease, metaphorically. In reality, the Holy Spirit fills us with Himself and we begin to live in the state of sanctifying grace. An unbaptized child is not yet filled with the Holy Spirit

So what was the case with the Mother Full of Grace, the New Eve? She was never separated from the Holy Spirit, Whose Bride She is. She was born with a soul always indwelt with the Holy Spirit, in the state of grace, without the stain of original sin - or without the heart disease of your analogy. It was only in Her preserving this where Eve did not that She became the Mother of God and of us.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,495
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2018, 11:37:50 AM »
I’m actually surprised that many don’t know that Mark of Ephesus defended the Immaculate conception against the Dominicans (Traditional opposers of the teaching before its definition) at the council of Florence?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 11:38:12 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2018, 01:40:54 PM »
This statement is clear: "original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants". So the heart disease is not the child's personal fault, but his inherited nature. I mostly agree with your analogy. So what is the cure and what does Baptism do? It cures the heart disease, metaphorically. In reality, the Holy Spirit fills us with Himself and we begin to live in the state of sanctifying grace. An unbaptized child is not yet filled with the Holy Spirit
This isn't the troubling issue though. The troubling issue is The death of the soul that you attribute to our nature. Rather than just physical death. We orthodox believe that the soul isn't dead.

Quote
So what was the case with the Mother Full of Grace, the New Eve? She was never separated from the Holy Spirit, Whose Bride She is. She was born with a soul always indwelt with the Holy Spirit, in the state of grace, without the stain of original sin - or without the heart disease of your analogy. It was only in Her preserving this where Eve did not that She became the Mother of God and of us.

The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will. If someone is guided by the HS and there actions are there own, accompanied by instead of taken over. She would retain free will. Even if she wouldn't go in the wrong direction by her own choosing. Now remember she called herself saved by Christ her son. This salvation is the physical salvation of ancestral sin.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 01:42:12 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,495
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2018, 01:46:56 PM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 01:49:10 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 05:45:34 PM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
Part of being a free willed person. Means that you have choice. If the virgin marry was dictated and comanded by the HS. Free will wouldn't exist. Since its the will of the HS would command her.

The fathers state that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal or immortal. Through obedience they would have gained immortality.  They were in a inbetween state.   They would have continued towards full grace. So they were human. Immaculate has nothing to do with it. An immaculate state is a state of full grace.
Now that you are incorporating wills.
Adam and Eve were said to have a natural will. We hold that Christ does as well.
After the fall people are born with a Gnomic will which is inclined towards sin but, not sinful by nature. Big difference.
Now if a person sins they will default into what you call. Original sin. We aren't born that way but, eventually all will sin.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 05:59:12 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,495
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2018, 06:37:54 PM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
Part of being a free willed person. Means that you have choice. If the virgin marry was dictated and comanded by the HS. Free will wouldn't exist. Since its the will of the HS would command her.

The fathers state that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal or immortal. Through obedience they would have gained immortality.  They were in a inbetween state.   They would have continued towards full grace. So they were human. Immaculate has nothing to do with it. An immaculate state is a state of full grace.
Now that you are incorporating wills.
Adam and Eve were said to have a natural will. We hold that Christ does as well.
After the fall people are born with a Gnomic will which is inclined towards sin but, not sinful by nature. Big difference.
Now if a person sins they will default into what you call. Original sin. We aren't born that way but, eventually all will sin.

This all sounds novel to me honestly. Could you back this up with the fathers?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2018, 09:26:46 PM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
Part of being a free willed person. Means that you have choice. If the virgin marry was dictated and comanded by the HS. Free will wouldn't exist. Since its the will of the HS would command her.

The fathers state that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal or immortal. Through obedience they would have gained immortality.  They were in a inbetween state.   They would have continued towards full grace. So they were human. Immaculate has nothing to do with it. An immaculate state is a state of full grace.
Now that you are incorporating wills.
Adam and Eve were said to have a natural will. We hold that Christ does as well.
After the fall people are born with a Gnomic will which is inclined towards sin but, not sinful by nature. Big difference.
Now if a person sins they will default into what you call. Original sin. We aren't born that way but, eventually all will sin.

This all sounds novel to me honestly. Could you back this up with the fathers?
Its work for me but, if  it edifies you than here are some.

Athanasius, Saint. On the Incarnation of the Word


You are wondering, perhaps, for what possible reason, having proposed to speak of the Incarnation of the Word, we are at present treating of the origin of mankind. But this, too, properly belongs to the aim of our treatise. 2. For in speaking of the appearance of the Saviour among us, we must needs speak also of the origin of men, that you may know that the reason of His coming down was because of us, and that our transgression called forth the loving-kindness of the Word, that the Lord should both make haste to help us and appear among men. 3. For of His becoming Incarnate we were the object, and for our salvation He dealt so lovingly as to appear and be born even in a human body. 4. Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices; and death had the mastery over them as king. Romans 5:14 For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption. 6. For man is by nature mortal, inasmuch as he is made out of what is not; but by reason of his likeness to Him that is (and if he still preserved this likeness by keeping Him in his knowledge) he would stay his natural corruption, and remain incorrupt; as Wisdom Wisdom 6:18 says: "The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality;" but being incorrupt, he would live henceforth as God, to which I suppose the divine Scripture refers, when it says: "I have said you are gods, and you are all sons of the most Highest; but you die like men, and fall as one of the princes."


Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,415
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2018, 11:26:46 PM »
Pravoslavbob, thanks for that. I'm very happy that we agree, then, that the dear Mother of God and of Christians is personally sinless. Wonderful. I like the way you point out how She is a model for us also of the theosis we are all called to attain, as She was even in this life a living Saint who never sinned, as are the blessed in heaven. She shows us what it means to live in union with God in every moment of our lives, to love Him with a perfect Love, and never sway from His will. On account of Her sinless life, as you say, She is by far more glorious than the Seraphim and more honorable than the Cherubim beyond comparison.

I'm happy also that we reject together the opinion that Mary was only sanctified on the eve of the Annunciation. In the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew, it is clear Mary is already sinless Saint among saints, purer than the purest at age 3. Every day, She increased in holiness and in grace, was most frequent in prayer and in study of the law of God, was most elegant in singing, most lowly in humility, most perfect in all Wisdom. Never spoke evil and he who who in sickness touched Her went home cured. Thus, we can understand why St. Gabriel in fact recognizes Her as his Queen and superior in grace and salutes Her reverently, "Hail, full of grace", some 12 years later.

Thus far we agree. It seems that our main area of disagreement is the nature of original sin. To be clear, as the Catechism says, we do not consider original sin to be a personal fault. We consider it to be the privation of sanctifying grace which human nature inherits from Adam and Eve after the fall. One of the ancient canons of Carthage, approved by the Council of Ephesus, says original sin is the inheritance of the death of the soul from Adam, giving this as the true, universal and ancient interpretation of the passage in Rom 5, where St. Paul says death passed to all from Adam. Original sin that is washed away refers to the soul born "dead" or without grace.

Many of the Fathers, St. Irenaeus, St. Ephraem etc say the Theotokos is the cause of our life, i.e. by Her faith loving obedience to God's will, She brought back the life of grace to the human race. Some of the holy Greek Fathers like St. Germanus of Constantinople say Mary had the possibility not to die but freely chose to. St. John Damascene in his homily on the Dormition of the Theotokos says the Mother of life could not inherit the corruption of unending death, but was now to be raised body and soul into heaven, as both Catholics and Orthodox believe. Mary obtained this privilege because She preserved and increased all the gifts of grace received from the Lord's goodness.

Originally, God willed all the children of men and women would be born pure and immaculate, just as they now are in baptism, with indwelling sanctifying grace. But after they fell, they could not give to their children what they lacked. Thus, God willed to redeem and re-create, as it were, humanity through a New Eve like the first Eve in every sense. Thus, we hold, He gave her that fullness of grace that Eve had before the fall; with the difference that She obeyed Him and preserved it, while Eve of old had not. Would you disagree, Pravoslavbob? Essentially the doctrine is that Mary was born in a "baptized" state, already full of grace and indwelt by the Spirit, to be New Eve. Let me know your thoughts. God bless.

I am sorry that I have not had the time to respond to your post.  I hope that I will have time soon.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,495
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2018, 03:28:56 AM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
Part of being a free willed person. Means that you have choice. If the virgin marry was dictated and comanded by the HS. Free will wouldn't exist. Since its the will of the HS would command her.

The fathers state that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal or immortal. Through obedience they would have gained immortality.  They were in a inbetween state.   They would have continued towards full grace. So they were human. Immaculate has nothing to do with it. An immaculate state is a state of full grace.
Now that you are incorporating wills.
Adam and Eve were said to have a natural will. We hold that Christ does as well.
After the fall people are born with a Gnomic will which is inclined towards sin but, not sinful by nature. Big difference.
Now if a person sins they will default into what you call. Original sin. We aren't born that way but, eventually all will sin.

This all sounds novel to me honestly. Could you back this up with the fathers?
Its work for me but, if  it edifies you than here are some.

Athanasius, Saint. On the Incarnation of the Word


You are wondering, perhaps, for what possible reason, having proposed to speak of the Incarnation of the Word, we are at present treating of the origin of mankind. But this, too, properly belongs to the aim of our treatise. 2. For in speaking of the appearance of the Saviour among us, we must needs speak also of the origin of men, that you may know that the reason of His coming down was because of us, and that our transgression called forth the loving-kindness of the Word, that the Lord should both make haste to help us and appear among men. 3. For of His becoming Incarnate we were the object, and for our salvation He dealt so lovingly as to appear and be born even in a human body. 4. Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices; and death had the mastery over them as king. Romans 5:14 For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption. 6. For man is by nature mortal, inasmuch as he is made out of what is not; but by reason of his likeness to Him that is (and if he still preserved this likeness by keeping Him in his knowledge) he would stay his natural corruption, and remain incorrupt; as Wisdom Wisdom 6:18 says: "The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality;" but being incorrupt, he would live henceforth as God, to which I suppose the divine Scripture refers, when it says: "I have said you are gods, and you are all sons of the most Highest; but you die like men, and fall as one of the princes."

With all due respect I see nothing here to justify what you have said to me in the previous post. St athanasius literlaly says man have become corrupted on account of turning away from God. It does not say anywhere that Adam and even were not human but explicitly says man by nature is mortal. He does not discuss their free will or lack there of but actually emphasized a fallen state in his teaching of man’s corruption for turning away from God
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 03:31:15 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2018, 08:36:43 AM »
The problem here is that she wouldn't be fully human. She would be taken over by the HS. Loss of free will.

Quick question: So in Orthodox Theology, part of being human Is having a fallen nature? Adam and Eve weren’t human until they fell?
Which begs another question...How did they sin if they didn’t have free will as they were made immaculate (a lack of free will, which you say, is a consequence of not having orginal sin)?

Sorry for the bombardment  ;D
Part of being a free willed person. Means that you have choice. If the virgin marry was dictated and comanded by the HS. Free will wouldn't exist. Since its the will of the HS would command her.

The fathers state that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal or immortal. Through obedience they would have gained immortality.  They were in a inbetween state.   They would have continued towards full grace. So they were human. Immaculate has nothing to do with it. An immaculate state is a state of full grace.
Now that you are incorporating wills.
Adam and Eve were said to have a natural will. We hold that Christ does as well.
After the fall people are born with a Gnomic will which is inclined towards sin but, not sinful by nature. Big difference.
Now if a person sins they will default into what you call. Original sin. We aren't born that way but, eventually all will sin.

This all sounds novel to me honestly. Could you back this up with the fathers?
Its work for me but, if  it edifies you than here are some.

Athanasius, Saint. On the Incarnation of the Word


You are wondering, perhaps, for what possible reason, having proposed to speak of the Incarnation of the Word, we are at present treating of the origin of mankind. But this, too, properly belongs to the aim of our treatise. 2. For in speaking of the appearance of the Saviour among us, we must needs speak also of the origin of men, that you may know that the reason of His coming down was because of us, and that our transgression called forth the loving-kindness of the Word, that the Lord should both make haste to help us and appear among men. 3. For of His becoming Incarnate we were the object, and for our salvation He dealt so lovingly as to appear and be born even in a human body. 4. Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices; and death had the mastery over them as king. Romans 5:14 For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption. 6. For man is by nature mortal, inasmuch as he is made out of what is not; but by reason of his likeness to Him that is (and if he still preserved this likeness by keeping Him in his knowledge) he would stay his natural corruption, and remain incorrupt; as Wisdom Wisdom 6:18 says: "The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality;" but being incorrupt, he would live henceforth as God, to which I suppose the divine Scripture refers, when it says: "I have said you are gods, and you are all sons of the most Highest; but you die like men, and fall as one of the princes."

With all due respect I see nothing here to justify what you have said to me in the previous post. St athanasius literlaly says man have become corrupted on account of turning away from God. It does not say anywhere that Adam and even were not human but explicitly says man by nature is mortal. He does not discuss their free will or lack there of but actually emphasized a fallen state in his teaching of man’s corruption for turning away from God
I think you are a little confused. I never stated Adam and Eve weren't human. I said Adam and Eve weren't Immaculate as you stated.

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2018, 10:30:56 PM »
Adam and Eve were not created Immaculate? Of course they were. They even had the possibility not to die, by preserving grace without sin and habitually eating of the tree of life, which we don't have! Carthage rejected the opinion that "that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body—that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity" as false. St. Athanasius mentions what is called "negative immortality" (possibility of not dying) when the Doctor states, "Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices". And in Sacred Scripture we read, Wis 2:22 "And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls. 23 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. 24 But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world". So nature and grace were united before the fall, sin and death had not entered the world yet, and the possibility of not dying was present to our first parents. Do you agree?

Quote from: Pravoslavbob
I am sorry that I have not had the time to respond to your post.  I hope that I will have time soon.

No worries. Sure.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2018, 11:42:27 PM »
Adam and Eve were not created Immaculate? Of course they were. They even had the possibility not to die, by preserving grace without sin and habitually eating of the tree of life, which we don't have! Carthage rejected the opinion that "that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body—that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity" as false. St. Athanasius mentions what is called "negative immortality" (possibility of not dying) when the Doctor states, "Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices". And in Sacred Scripture we read, Wis 2:22 "And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls. 23 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. 24 But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world". So nature and grace were united before the fall, sin and death had not entered the world yet, and the possibility of not dying was present to our first parents. Do you agree?

Quote from: Pravoslavbob
I am sorry that I have not had the time to respond to your post.  I hope that I will have time soon.

No worries. Sure.
If what you call immaculate is simple a state of ignorance. Than we are talking passed each other. Grace as we know it is having knowledge of good and evil while maintaining a life pleasing to god. If what you aspire to be is simply a person who has grace without knowledge than Roman Catholicism might be the proper setting.
Plus, they fell. So how could they be concidered immaculate?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 11:48:41 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2018, 11:59:24 PM »
Immaculate=filled with the Holy Spirit, with His indwelling grace in the soul. Adam and Eve were created in the state of sanctifying grace but they did not preserve it because they sinned mortally and fell. Mary was born with the Holy Spirit, in the state of grace, and preserved it lifelong without any sin. That is why She is New Eve.

Please read St. John Damascene's sermon on the nativity of the Theotokos, very much like St. Andrew of Crete.

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2016/09/oration-on-nativity-of-holy-theotokos.html
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,931
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2018, 12:30:30 AM »
This seems to be an topic where people start from a different place, and so talk past each other. For many fathers, Adam and Eve did not start in a place of perfection and grace and then fall, but rather started as spiritual children who were expected to grow and learn but instead made a horrible mistake, and thereafter experienced the consequences of their actions. Perfection is Godhood, and thus it is an unreachable height for created beings, it is a goal rather than an achievable destination. It is the point (God) towards which created beings strive for all their existence--both in their life in the world and also in what comes after it. Being sinless doesn't make you perfect, nor fully deified, nor fully sanctified/justified/whatever; Adam and Eve having sinned is not the only reason they were not perfect; and saving from sin was not the only reason Christ was destined from before time began to do what he did and be who he was.
"We are all human beans. What is left now is for each of us to grow to our full potential in Christ." - Abba Hezekiah

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2018, 12:56:45 AM »
Asteriktos, we agree with you partially. It is commonly taught that God would have become Man in Jesus Christ Our Lord even if Adam and Eve had not sinned. Thus, the Fathers say, God became man that man might become one with God. But after he sinned, as the divine Liturgy sings, He willed to fashion a remedy out of our mortality itself, by dying for our sin, and restoring human nature to her original dignity. This He did in and through Mary, as St. Andrew and St. John say. Do Orthodox believe Mary is really a Mother of Grace for Her children? We received God and His Grace only because Mary full of Grace preserved it uninterruptedly.

St. Andrew is clear human Nature is restored at the birth of Mary as cited in the OP. Similarly, if you read the sermon of St. Damascene cited above, the Doctor says, "through whom the whole human race has been restored, through whom the pain of our ancestress Eve has been transformed into joy ... Through her the Creator transformed all nature into a better state by means of humanity ... it was necessary for her to be first-born, She who would bear the first born of all creation ... O most blessed loins of Joachim, from which an unblemished seed came forth! O renowned womb of Anne, in which ... an all-holy infant grew". Mary restored the human race by preserving grace and living a sinless life. Thus, She became Mother of God and through Her grace and restoration came to all creation. From these two statements, it is clear Mary was already filled with the Holy Spirit in Her mother's womb. Indeed, if John the Baptist was to be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb (Luk 1:15), which happened when Jesus and Mary visited him (Luk 1:41), how much more the Mother of God would be so filled with the Holy Spirit? She is called the Bride of the Holy Spirit in the holy Fathers. Would the Lord do less for His Mother than He did through Her visitation by His Spirit for His Precursor?
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2018, 01:27:38 AM »
Immaculate=filled with the Holy Spirit, with His indwelling grace in the soul. Adam and Eve were created in the state of sanctifying grace but they did not preserve it because they sinned mortally and fell. Mary was born with the Holy Spirit, in the state of grace, and preserved it lifelong without any sin. That is why She is New Eve.

Please read St. John Damascene's sermon on the nativity of the Theotokos, very much like St. Andrew of Crete.

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2016/09/oration-on-nativity-of-holy-theotokos.html
The sermon is beautiful and doesn't imply anything that you wrote above. If grace were as simple as returing to a state similar to that of Adam and Eve. Why would god allow a fall? He would simply forgive A&E. Or any of us for that matter. Why send his son. If it were a morality issue it could have been handled right then and there.

No. There are obstacle in the way. First is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Knowlege of! Means entanglement with. You and I are far superior to A&E in this regard.  Do you realize the consequences of that alone? To master and skilfully navigate though a mine field of choice every single day of our lives. This existence is nothing like there existance of being sheltered by a supreme being every day and every step of the way. This is exactly the position of young children in there mother and fathers care. In fact its exactly the same.
So the virgin marry was a child and the HS came to her at a set time. 15 years old from tradition. She was free from sin and choose to stay that way thereafter. 
There is no reason to believe this isn't possible.  I have children and I can tell you that until they reach around sixteen years old.  They are clean as snow. Mostly..

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2018, 11:04:19 AM »
So if you concede that the word immaculate means that all people are immaculate until they actually sin. And, That its a state of sinlessness due to not having praxis with temptation.  Than Ill agree with you.
Grace then would be a state in which man has experienced and overcome with the help of the HS his entanglement with knowledge of good and evil. Then we are golden.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2018, 11:25:35 AM »
Let us add to this as well. I will concede that Adam and eve had grace as well. That It was a grace different than the superior grace of the saints. In that A&E has a grace of an inocent child. Protected from evil by a guardian.  A grace of innocents.  Do you agree?

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 621
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2018, 12:58:02 PM »
Quote
Let us add to this as well. I will concede that Adam and eve had grace as well. That It was a grace different than the superior grace of the saints. In that A&E has a grace of an inocent child. Protected from evil by a guardian.  A grace of innocents.  Do you agree?

Sure, I agree. But unfortunately for them and for us, they lost that grace. Therefore, the means of salvation was lost to the whole human race.

How did God choose to restore that grace? Through Our Lord and Our Lady. Mother Mary did what Eve should have done but did not.

St. Irenaeus says, "The Lord, coming into his own creation in visible form, was sustained by his own creation which he himself sustains in being. His obedience on the tree of the cross reversed the disobedience at the tree in Eden; the good news of the truth announced by an angel to Mary, a virgin subject to a husband, undid the evil lie that seduced Eve, a virgin espoused to a husband. As Eve was seduced by the word of an angel and so fled from God after disobeying his word, Mary in her turn was given the good news by the word of an angel, and bore God in obedience to his word. As Eve was seduced into disobedience to God, so Mary was persuaded into obedience to God; thus the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve."

Let me ask, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, what would have happened? How would their children have been born? Would baptism be necessary? Of course children are still innocent, they have no actual sin. But they have a hereditary stain inherited from Adam (a heart disease, if you will) which is washed away (cured, removed) in Baptism. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, every child of Adam and Eve would be born a child of God even before Baptism, having His Holy Spirit. Mary was born that way, and preserved Her grace for Her children also; and so God appointed Her the Mother of St. John and of us all at the Cross.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:58:30 PM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,509
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Immaculate Birth of the Mother of God?
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2018, 08:15:14 PM »
Instead of posting what the fathers say. Maybe you can give us an definition of what exactly guilt is in regards to A&E's sin. How is guilt transfered to descendents.