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Author Topic: the similiarity and difference between Orthodoxy and catholic  (Read 7314 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2012, 08:18:03 PM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry

You will never be able to understand the Orthodox Church with your mind. Put that quest aside and just go to your local Orthodox church as much as you can and keep your heart open to God. All these questions will not do you good because they will never end.
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« Reply #181 on: December 31, 2012, 08:19:35 PM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry

Even if indulgences were/are wrong (something I do not say) it doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church would have called a crusade or killed a puppy wouldn't have disproven her claim to infallibilty at all.
Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...

Sin is absolved through the sacraments. We don't have indulgences in the Orthodox Church. We have baptism, holy communion, holy confession, and the other sacraments, prayers, repentance, fasting, faith, love, hope, and the mercy and grace of God.
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« Reply #182 on: December 31, 2012, 08:22:04 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Sale of anything holy is condemned--some things explicitly in holy canons, other things by the teachings of the fathers and saints through their word and example. Again, we have the consensus of the fathers--not teachings and doings limited to times and places.
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« Reply #183 on: December 31, 2012, 08:25:21 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?

"Indulgences" has no single universal definition. It's one thing in one place, another in another. And you are still looking at the whole thing through Protestant propaganda, so it will be even harder to try and explain.
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« Reply #184 on: December 31, 2012, 08:29:14 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No. It seems to me an "aboslution certificate," which anyway is not a universal practice in the Orthodox Church, is received after the sacrament of confession, like a baptism certificate. Any sale thereof would be an abuse, and condemned.
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« Reply #185 on: December 31, 2012, 08:31:41 PM »

Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?

I thought both churches accepted all of them, but that each had different lists. Unless these are different from the Apostolic Canons.
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« Reply #186 on: December 31, 2012, 08:32:42 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.

Well, it appeared to be RCC dogma at Florence. Perhaps now no longer.
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« Reply #187 on: December 31, 2012, 08:33:36 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

What disunity?
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« Reply #188 on: December 31, 2012, 08:35:42 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

In the context of my previous statement, you do not believe Christ has a vicar on earth that speaks with absolute authority like we Catholics do.  Pinning down Orthodox theology and discipline is like trying to pin down a tomato seed on your plate.

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.

Diversity does not signify disunity, at least when it comes to disciplines.

Speaking of difficult to pin down, look at RCC dogma through the centuries. That's a headache.
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« Reply #189 on: December 31, 2012, 08:36:11 PM »

Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?

I thought both churches accepted all of them, but that each had different lists. Unless these are different from the Apostolic Canons.

The Apostolic Canons are a part of the Apostolic Constitutions.

Quote
The forty-seventh and last chapter of the eighth book of the Apostolic Constitutions contains the eighty-five Canons of the Apostles, which present themselves as being from an apostolic Council at Antioch. These canons were later approved by the Eastern Council in Trullo in 692 but rejected by Pope Constantine. In the Western Church only fifty of these canons circulated, translated in Latin by Dionysius Exiguus on about 500 AD, and included in the Western collections and afterwards in the "Corpus Juris Canonici".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Constitutions

Quote
The Church seems never to have regarded this work as of undoubted Apostolic authority. The Apostolic Constitutions were rejected as canonical by the Decretum Gelasianum. The Quinisext Council in 692 rejected most part of the work on account of the interpolations of heretics. Only that portion of it to which has been given the name Canons of the Apostles was received in the Eastern Christianity. Even if not regarded as of certain Apostolic origin, however, in antiquity the Apostolic Constitutions were held generally in high esteem and served as the basis for much ecclesiastical legislation. The Apostolic Constitutions were accepted as canonical by John of Damascus and, in a modified form, included in the 81 book canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
  Same source, my emphasis.
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« Reply #190 on: December 31, 2012, 08:36:58 PM »

I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.

St. Mark was there, he was not some pig-headed guy who never listened to what was said. You were not there. I'll take St. Mark.
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« Reply #191 on: December 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked

*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.

To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... Cry


LOL. Yet another way Protestants read Scripure with blinders.
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« Reply #192 on: December 31, 2012, 08:40:18 PM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided

Sin. Hello.
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« Reply #193 on: December 31, 2012, 08:41:42 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.
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« Reply #194 on: December 31, 2012, 08:44:41 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?
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« Reply #195 on: December 31, 2012, 08:47:01 PM »

To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

That's scary.

Abortion is murder, lawful marital relations in which the couple tries to avoid the natural possibility of conception are penanced in the canons (by may be mitigated by the confessor), and mutual abstention from marital relations to devote themselves better to prayer is never condemned. So....?
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« Reply #196 on: December 31, 2012, 08:49:27 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.
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« Reply #197 on: December 31, 2012, 08:56:50 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.

I didn't realize that annulments were dogma.  Are they?  I do know that they are not marriage.

Quote
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility.
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is binding until death separates the spouses.
“There is no such thing as the annulment of a consummated sacramental marriage. The expression
is sometimes used inaccurately for the declaration of nullity of a union reputed to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such.”2 It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/28_Annulments.pdf

You're the one that stated that the RCC made new dogmas about marriage, so please show us, with citations, what those are.

Yes, annulments are pretty odd, and not always easily understood.  The whole concept of them kind of makes me squirm very uncomfortably, but they're not a dogma of the Church, afaik.  In the grand scheme of things, I suppose that one could say that they are a form of Catholic oikonomia. And, since there are no emperors any longer....
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« Reply #198 on: December 31, 2012, 09:22:15 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.

I didn't realize that annulments were dogma.  Are they?  I do know that they are not marriage.

Quote
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility.
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is binding until death separates the spouses.
“There is no such thing as the annulment of a consummated sacramental marriage. The expression
is sometimes used inaccurately for the declaration of nullity of a union reputed to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such.”2 It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/28_Annulments.pdf

You're the one that stated that the RCC made new dogmas about marriage, so please show us, with citations, what those are.

Yes, annulments are pretty odd, and not always easily understood.  The whole concept of them kind of makes me squirm very uncomfortably, but they're not a dogma of the Church, afaik.  In the grand scheme of things, I suppose that one could say that they are a form of Catholic oikonomia. And, since there are no emperors any longer....

When you tell your wife she looks beautiful, does she ake you justify your feeling with evidence? I said it seemed to me. I'm not an expert on Roman Catholicism, it just seems to me that A, their teaching on marriage has changed and B, many of their other dogmas hae changed, besides the ones they invented.
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« Reply #199 on: January 01, 2013, 12:27:52 AM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No. It seems to me an "aboslution certificate," which anyway is not a universal practice in the Orthodox Church, is received after the sacrament of confession, like a baptism certificate. Any sale thereof would be an abuse, and condemned.

Not a universal practice, but such things did exist.

Quote
Absolution Certificates were a form of indulgences used in the Orthodox Christian churches of the eastern Mediterranean area during the sixteenth through eighteenth centuries, a use that arose from the influence of western European culture, particularly Latin, as Greek scholars and theologians increased their contacts and education at western schools.
[...]
These certificates were real indulgences that anyone could obtain which absolved them from sin. These were often obtainable for a specified amounts of money. According to Christos Yannaras, the absolution granted by these certificates had no connection with any participation by the faithful in the Mystery of Penance, nor in the Mystery of the Eucharist.
From: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates


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« Reply #200 on: January 01, 2013, 12:32:02 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God and God will use material to torture his enemies forever in hell?
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« Reply #201 on: January 01, 2013, 12:34:17 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"
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« Reply #202 on: January 01, 2013, 12:42:01 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

Most Protestant church believe God will abandon his enemies in hell and hell is the absence of God and His love. Also, God will hate, torture ,condemn, show violence and take revenge on his enemies  forever in hell and with the material fire forever.


How about Catholic Church?
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« Reply #203 on: January 01, 2013, 12:44:36 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

Most Protestant church believe God will abandon his enemies in hell and hell is the absence of God and His love.

Shows how scriptural they are...

Well, perhaps you could better ask your questions about RC'ism on a RC forum. There you'll find more people who're knowledgable about Catholicism.
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« Reply #204 on: January 01, 2013, 12:57:33 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.

I didn't realize that annulments were dogma.  Are they?  I do know that they are not marriage.

Quote
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility.
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is binding until death separates the spouses.
“There is no such thing as the annulment of a consummated sacramental marriage. The expression
is sometimes used inaccurately for the declaration of nullity of a union reputed to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such.”2 It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/28_Annulments.pdf

You're the one that stated that the RCC made new dogmas about marriage, so please show us, with citations, what those are.

Yes, annulments are pretty odd, and not always easily understood.  The whole concept of them kind of makes me squirm very uncomfortably, but they're not a dogma of the Church, afaik.  In the grand scheme of things, I suppose that one could say that they are a form of Catholic oikonomia. And, since there are no emperors any longer....

When you tell your wife she looks beautiful, does she ake you justify your feeling with evidence? I said it seemed to me. I'm not an expert on Roman Catholicism, it just seems to me that A, their teaching on marriage has changed and B, many of their other dogmas hae changed, besides the ones they invented.

Just so we're clear--*before* you wrote that it "seemed" to you....you wrote this fairly simple declarative sentence: "Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas."   I don't see any modifiers, qualifiers, etc., just "...it is the RCC which...has made new dogmas."  All of which was in reference to marriage, none of which is true.  As for the "invention" of dogmas and the "changing" of other dogmas, that dead horse has been beaten almost to the point of oblivion, and I, for one, am not going to revisit it again here.  Wink  Happy New Year!!
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« Reply #205 on: January 01, 2013, 12:59:11 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

Most Protestant church believe God will abandon his enemies in hell and hell is the absence of God and His love. Also, God will hate, torture ,condemn, show violence and take revenge on his enemies  forever in hell and with the material fire forever.


How about Catholic Church?

Try looking it up here, in the index: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm  That ought to get you started.
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« Reply #206 on: January 01, 2013, 01:11:50 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

The dreaded ": 8" curse strikes again.
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« Reply #207 on: January 01, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

The dreaded ": 8" curse strikes again.

The easy way to fix that is putting some set of formatting tags (like bold, italics, etc.) between the 8 and the right parenthesis, like this:
Code:
(Ps 139:8[b][/b])
Which looks like this, without the need for inserting some unsightly space (as most people commonly do) between the 8 and the right parenthesis:
(Ps 139:8)
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« Reply #208 on: January 02, 2013, 11:06:11 PM »

Frankly, I never understood the whole "Filioque" thing, and I was raised RC. All I was taught is that there's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, co-equal and co-exist from the beginning of time. They didn't get into who is generated from who- they just stressed that they were equal. I suppose the Latin Creed just added it to stress that they were equal, to avoid Sabellianism, and they just didn't take it out over the years- and just simply don't want to give the Orthodox the satisfaction.

To my mind, neither side is very willing to compromise or even discuss possible compromises.

For example, what about the possibility of Catholics saying the Apostles' Creed rather than the creed-with-the-filioque-in-it (or whatever you want to call, e.g. Creed of Toledo)? Or what about the possibility of Orthodox saying "... who proceeds eternally from the Father" (which more accurately translates the Greek text)?
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