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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2012, 09:31:40 PM » |
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What is "setting a list"?
Why does Orthodox Church have to set so many rules, laws and regulations? Rules establish order. Without order, you have chaos and lots of people go to hell. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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JamesR
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« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2012, 09:33:58 PM » |
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I think a good, overly-simplified way to describe the differences in regards to legalism in the RC and EO Churches is that in the RC Church, God is seen as more of a judge, and if you do something bad--like skip Church or break fasting etc--the RC Church emphasizes the guilt of the action you committed, whereas in Orthodoxy, God is more of a doctor, and if you do something bad--like the aforementioned things--there is more of an emphasis on the condition of your soul rejecting God's medicine, opposed to the guilt. We don't see these things as just rules God gives out to us for kicks that will either anger Him or appease Him, but treatments God has prescribed to us so that He can heal us.
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Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there. -Orthonorm |
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Wyatt
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« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2012, 11:12:12 PM » |
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I am still a bit confused.  Nowaday, Orthodox and Catholic Church/Christian also has many canon laws to obey and follow . Why Orthodox Church is not legalistic while Catholic is? For the same reason that sins committed by Catholics reflect on our entire Church, whereas sins committed by Eastern Orthodox Christians are just shrugged off as sinful human nature and does not reflect on the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole. So you admit the adoption of legalism by the Vatican is sinful? No, I was referring to how when some Catholics have killed Eastern Orthodox throughout history, it's due to that "evil" Roman Catholic Church, but when it is pointed out that there have been Eastern Orthodox who killed Catholics, many just shrug it off. I think you knew what I was getting at but, as usual, just prefer to troll. |
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« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 11:13:11 PM by Wyatt »
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walter1234
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« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2012, 03:16:09 AM » |
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Is there any internet source about the canon law of Orthodox Church?
What is the main purpose of setting a list of canon law in Orthodox Church?
Do you really want to study Orthodoxy by asking a million questions at once? Or do you want, instead, to know who Christ really is? I am interested in it as well. I come from Protestant .And Protestant often teaches that we have to know who Christ really is only through the bible.But Sola Scriptural is not the doctrine of Orthodoxy and private interpretation of Scripture is not recommended or is even prohibited in Orthodoxy. How would an Orthodox Christian know the Christ? By what ways would an Orthodoxy Christian know who Christ really is ? |
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« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 03:28:33 AM by walter1234 »
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JamesR
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« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2012, 04:55:53 AM » |
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By participating in the life of the Church that Jesus Christ left behind for us--as much as Protestants may deny it. This would include attending the worship services, listening to those long ancient hymns, reading the Bible with the guidance of the Church, saying the prayers, participating in the fasts and most of all participating in the Sacramental life. All of this together should put you in the direction of knowing Christ. Protestants water this down by rejecting the Church and just focusing on the Bible--and even then, they don't get the Bible in all of its fullness because the Bible was written for the Church by members of the Church, meant to be read in the context of the Church in accordance with the rest of the Holy Tradition that is only found within the Church.
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walter1234
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« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2012, 02:48:43 PM » |
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The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2012, 02:49:55 PM » |
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The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?
Yes. |
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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walter1234
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« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2012, 02:52:00 PM » |
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I always heard Catholic Christians mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?
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« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 03:01:17 PM by walter1234 »
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2012, 02:53:25 PM » |
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One more question.
I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?
Yes. |
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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walter1234
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« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2012, 03:01:43 PM » |
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Most Orthodox Church use St John Golden Mouth for their liturge. I heard some also use St. James Liturge. How about catholic church?
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2012, 03:07:35 PM » |
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Most Orthodox Church use St John Golden Mouth for their liturge. I heard some also use St. James Liturge. How about catholic church?
They can use many liturgies. The Ordinary form of the Latin Rite liturgy is the one most used, then some parishes use the Extraordinary "Tridentine" form of the Latin Rite liturgy. Eastern Catholics will use the same three liturgies used by the Orthodox (St. John Chrysostom's, St. Basil's and St. Gregory's) and the Oriental Catholics will use their local liturgies (such as the Maronite, Syro-Malabar etc.) |
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« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 03:07:49 PM by Cyrillic »
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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walter1234
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« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2012, 03:12:54 PM » |
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Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?
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« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 03:23:01 PM by walter1234 »
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2012, 03:28:34 PM » |
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Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?
No. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2012, 03:28:58 PM » |
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Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?
No. Since the Church is universal, it only makes sense that, throughout its history, various liturgies sprang up in different regions. All of the different Divine Liturgies/Masses in use are different expressions of the celebration of the same great mystery: the Holy Eucharist. |
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username!
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« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2012, 09:38:31 PM » |
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Here we go...again  . As long as this doesn’t turn into a Catholic bashing thread, I think it is safe to simply discuss the differences and similarities, but that appears to be difficult for many people. I have said many times before that if it were not for a small handful of things I could not work around, I would have become Roman Catholic. The more I learned about Orthodoxy, the more I respected the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose I am the odd ball. |
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Charles Martel
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« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2012, 07:56:01 AM » |
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Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.
These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals...... |
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2012, 07:59:53 AM » |
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Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.
These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths. |
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:00:04 AM by Cyrillic »
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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Charles Martel
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« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2012, 08:05:28 AM » |
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They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). "They" sacked "us". *sigh* "They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican. And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope. |
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
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Charles Martel
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« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2012, 08:06:51 AM » |
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Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.
These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths. I just thought I'd qualify it for the those not as familiar with the faith as ourselves. |
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2012, 08:31:57 AM » |
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They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). "They" sacked "us". *sigh* "They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican. And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope. That's why I posted it in scare quotes. Nobody posting here on this forum was alive in 1204. Really, the "they sacked us" thing is silly. |
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:32:37 AM by Cyrillic »
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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walter1234
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« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2012, 08:48:09 AM » |
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The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?
Yes. AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support its/Anselm's view of atonement?Is there any Church father teaching that Jesus ransoms us from Father? Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory? |
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:05:42 AM by walter1234 »
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2012, 09:05:33 AM » |
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AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support it's/Anselm's view of atonement? St. Augustine and then some other Latin Fathers. The Latin West used juridical terms to express the oikonomia of salvation. Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory? Pope St. Leo the Great, St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, etc. It's very much a Latin thing. |
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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walter1234
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« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2012, 09:07:43 AM » |
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AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support it's/Anselm's view of atonement? St. Augustine and then some other Latin Fathers. The Latin West used juridical terms to express the oikonomia of salvation. Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory? Pope St. Leo the Great, St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, etc. It's very much a Latin thing. Latin people were so legalistic... |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2012, 11:36:07 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. |
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walter1234
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« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2012, 11:57:31 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. Does Orthodox Church take any Church Father's view of purging or cleasing of soul after the death as its doctrine? |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2012, 12:01:06 PM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. Does Orthodox Church take any Church Father's view of purging or cleasing of soul after the death as its doctrine? No specific one, no. However, as in the time of the ancient Church, individual Orthodox are free to believe a range of things about what happens after death. |
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JoeS2
High Elder
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Jurisdiction: OCA
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St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)
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« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2012, 12:05:19 PM » |
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One more question.
I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?
Yes. When and how did the term "Mass" originate..... |
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2012, 12:33:42 PM » |
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One more question.
I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?
Yes. When and how did the term "Mass" originate..... The Latin words of dismissal were: "Ite, missa est". |
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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JoeS2
High Elder
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Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 886
St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)
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« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2012, 12:39:50 PM » |
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The Latin words of dismissal were: "Ite, missa est".
So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a means of dismissal.....Maybe Im not up on Latin meanings. I've heard the term "Liturgy of the Mass" and this really doesn't seem to fit either.... |
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:42:12 PM by JoeS2 »
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2012, 12:41:48 PM » |
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So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term? Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck  (I'm just making something up now) |
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:42:48 PM by Cyrillic »
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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domNoah
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Posts: 91
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« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2012, 10:36:16 PM » |
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Rome even left us and the "columbus found the new world in 1492" answer is 1054 A.D. They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it).
Im not sure based on your post if you knew that those "Catholics" were all excommunicated by the Pope after sacking Constantinople? |
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biro
Excelsior
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2012, 10:42:22 PM » |
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So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term? Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck (I'm just making something up now)Except for the part where they learned Latin in Catholic school and had booklets with Latin on one page and the local language on the other. Boring stuff like that. Poor useless Latin, only giving birth to the Romance languages and countless terms in science and law. Silly Italians, can't they go back to putting tomato sauce on everything? |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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dzheremi
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« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2012, 11:03:49 PM » |
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Wait...when did Italians stop putting tomato sauce on everything? Mama mia!  |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2012, 12:22:18 AM » |
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They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). "They" sacked "us". *sigh* "They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican. And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope. "I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!" "Your winnings, sir." "Oh thank you." |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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biro
Excelsior
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,758
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2012, 12:24:19 AM » |
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They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). "They" sacked "us". *sigh* "They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican. And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope. "I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!" "Your winnings, sir." "Oh thank you." Sigh. I should have known the OC.net weather pattern would reach its usual conclusion fairly quickly. |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2012, 12:25:06 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2012, 12:26:03 AM » |
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They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). "They" sacked "us". *sigh* "They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican. And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope. "I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!" "Your winnings, sir." "Oh thank you." Sigh. I should have known the OC.net weather pattern would reach its usual conclusion fairly quickly. Oh, right. History couldn't POSSIBLY have THAT interpretation. Sorry. What was I thinking? I should throw out the scholarly books and just read RC propaganda. Pope Innocent III (who wasn't that innocent) regretted and condemned the sacking, but he accepted the fait accompli. Not even an interdict for Venice, but instead rights and a glorious if ill-fated expansion of papal jurisdiction. |
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 12:27:27 AM by Shanghaiski »
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2012, 12:27:59 AM » |
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I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one Perhaps, though given my thoughts on materiality I'm not sure. *shrugs*  |
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walter1234
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« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2012, 01:12:39 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval. I've heard that Catholic Church used the doctrine of pugatory to make money in late Medieval.People can suffer less in pugatory fire if they donate more money to church. How about 'Jesus ransoms us from Father'? Was this whole concept completely formed in late Medieval? And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'? |
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 01:17:28 AM by walter1234 »
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domNoah
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« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2012, 01:51:21 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394). |
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domNoah
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« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2012, 01:56:15 AM » |
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Is there any written works of Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place. And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval. The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church). Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc. However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates" here is some info on them from an orthodox website http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates |
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 01:58:35 AM by domNoah »
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walter1234
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« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2012, 03:31:48 AM » |
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Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 03:33:39 AM by walter1234 »
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2012, 03:39:37 AM » |
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Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?
Some do, yes. Others do a "centering prayer" thing. Most Catholics probably use other prayers though, such as the rosary. |
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2012, 06:43:20 AM » |
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So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term? Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck (I'm just making something up now)Except for the part where they learned Latin in Catholic school and had booklets with Latin on one page and the local language on the other. Boring stuff like that. Poor useless Latin, only giving birth to the Romance languages and countless terms in science and law. Silly Italians, can't they go back to putting tomato sauce on everything? LOL. Are you accusing me of hating Latin? |
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2012, 08:31:51 AM » |
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And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?
No. |
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 08:31:58 AM by Cyrillic »
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
Oh wait, you live in the Netherlands, that European worthless, atheistic, liberal piece of ****.
-88Devin88
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