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Author Topic: the similiarity and difference between Orthodoxy and catholic  (Read 7239 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: December 23, 2012, 12:55:19 PM »

I come from Protestant. I know what the difference is between Protestant and Orthodoxy a lot.

And Now, I want to know more about what the similiarity and difference are between the Orthodoxy and Catholic, especially the faith and doctrines. Can someone tell me?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 12:56:49 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 01:06:22 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »

Devotions to Saints and Mary-both have it.  However we don't consider her a co-redemptorix
In the States and Canada in Orthodoxy parish councils mostly run the parish.  I recommend you stay out of this for as long as possible because parish councils can be terribly cheeky.
Catholicism is ran more by the priest in the church with everything highly organized and there are parish councils but the priest has the final say.  Not doctrine differences just stuff you'd experience in real life.
There is a lot more lay participation in clerical rules in Catholicism.  IE, no priest present for first communion retreats, etc... people taking communion to the sick.  This doesn't happen in orthodoxy the priest is usually involved or the deacon at most major groups/classes and they take the sacraments to the sick.
accountability;  it is harder to get away with slacking off and not knowing people you go to church with when you go to a small North American Orthodox church versus a Roman Catholic parish that may have 8 Sat/Sun Masses and 4000 families.

We are the oldest Christian community in existence.  Rome even left us and the "columbus found the new world in 1492" answer is 1054 A.D.  They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 02:06:00 PM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 03:41:51 PM »

I didn't sack anyone
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 03:59:24 PM »

I didn't sack anyone


username!
is a 13th-century Greek, I think.
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 04:18:21 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son

In the context of what is expressed in the Creed.

Quote
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.

This pretty much sums it up.
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 07:54:29 PM »

Here we go...again  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 08:03:02 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son

In the context of what is expressed in the Creed.

Quote
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.

This pretty much sums it up.

Catholics tend to be more legalistic while Orthodox are more mystical.
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »

Here we go...again  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.

As long as this doesn’t turn into a Catholic bashing thread, I think it is safe to simply discuss the differences and similarities, but that appears to be difficult for many people.  I have said many times before that if it were not for a small handful of things I could not work around, I would have become Roman Catholic.  The more I learned about Orthodoxy, the more I respected the Roman Catholic Church.  I suppose I am the odd ball.
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 10:02:56 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
Original sin, Immaculate conception
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »

Similarities:

-Both are Liturgical (although the RC Church keeps getting more and more liberal throughout the years, watering down their worship gradually)
-Both argue Apostolic succession
-Both rely on Church Tradition opposed to just the Scriptures
-Same Sacraments/Mysteries pretty much--except a few differences in the Marriage Sacraments and a bit of a difference between Confirmation and Chrismation

Differences:

-The Filioque, RCs believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but we believe that it only proceeds from the Father.
-Substitutionary Atonement (often an overlooked but major differece), RCs believe that Jesus died to appease His Father's wrath against humanity, EOs believe that He died to defeat death.
-Original Sin, the RCs believe that we inherited Adam's guilt, the EOs believe that we only inherited the consequences of his sin--which was death.
-Ecclessiology, the RCs believe in all this weirdo Papal theology about the Pope being the supreme Bishop and being infallible in certain conditions, whereas the EO believes that all Bishops and Patriarchates are equal and none are individually infallible.
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 10:54:03 PM »

Original sin, Immaculate conception

These are only an issue because of the dogmatization of the IC.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 12:07:50 AM »

I guess this would follow under liturgics but I just found out, due to be raised in the Orthodox church and not being aware, that Roman Catholics have not been exposed to the poetic theology encapsulated in our hymnography. I have been sharing our church hymns with a group of very devout Roman Catholics on Facebook. They are in awe of the beauty and inspiration in our hymnography. They wanted to know who had written the hymns but most of these hymns have been written so long ago (first few centuries of Christianity) that either the authors are anonymous or have been lost to the passages of time.

I was so happy to give them part of our shared heritage that had somehow been lost to them. One woman wrote that the hymn of Christ destroying death through is Godhead and raising the dead with Himself was one of the most inspiring quotes she had ever heard.

Anyway, their excitement of reading the hymns gave me, a lackadaisical Orthodox, a new appreciation for the theology and beauty in our hymns that I had taken for granted.
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 12:21:36 AM »

Original sin, Immaculate conception

These are only an issue because of the dogmatization of the IC.

Well, they are related.  The Orthodox reject the Latin concept of Original Sin.  IC is not necessary if there is no Original Sin.
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 12:39:29 AM »

Quote
They wanted to know who had written the hymns but most of these hymns have been written so long ago (first few centuries of Christianity) that either the authors are anonymous or have been lost to the passages of time.

Good to hear from you, Tamara!  Smiley

You'll be pleased to know that the identity of the writers of a good proportion of Orthodox hymnography is indeed known to us. These hymnographers are recorded in the menaia and other liturgical books which contain the texts of feasts and other liturgical services.

If there's any particular hymn you'd like to know who the hymnographer was who wrote it, feel free to PM me.  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 01:35:38 AM »

Catholic also believes the cross and death of Jesus is to fulifill  the glory and justice of Father and ransom us from Him.It is quite similar to Protestant. The main difference between the atonement of Protestant and Catholic is simply that Catholic believe Father did not shown angry to and  kill Jesus

Catholic believes that there is purgatory while Orthodox does not.
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 03:41:05 AM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son

In the context of what is expressed in the Creed.

Quote
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.

This pretty much sums it up.

Catholics tend to be more legalistic while Orthodox are more mystical.
Besides original sin and satisfaction atonement, what can also show that Catholic Church is more legalistic?
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 05:04:40 AM »

Besides original sin and satisfaction atonement, what can also show that Catholic Church is more legalistic?

Just read the Code of Canon Law.
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 05:48:39 AM »

Besides original sin and satisfaction atonement, what can also show that Catholic Church is more legalistic?
One guess would be the RC marriage annulment process. The RCC teaches that divorce and remarriage is morally wrong, and a mortal sin,  but on the other hand, almost everyone who applies for a Catholic annulment in the USA gets it with the official stamp of the Church. 
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 12:23:14 PM »

Besides original sin and satisfaction atonement, what can also show that Catholic Church is more legalistic?

Just read the Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

Wa! Really too many rules and regulations.   Shocked

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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 01:07:56 PM »

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Canon_law

Orthodox Church also has its own canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?Why is Orthodoxy  not legalistic even it has its own canon law?
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 01:11:02 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 01:14:17 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.

Catholic and Orthodox also have Canon law.Why is Catholic legalistic while Orthodoxy is not?
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 01:36:30 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.

Catholic and Orthodox also have Canon law.Why is Catholic legalistic while Orthodoxy is not?

Because the Latins in the West - the Romans - were the masters of the law, much more so than the Greeks. Thus, in the Eastern Roman Empire, where Greek was spoken, law school was entirely in Latin up until the 7th century. The 6th century Byzantine Emperor Justinian wrote his big civil code - the Corpus Juris Civilis - not in Greek, which the majority of his subjects spoke, but in Latin, because that was the language of the great jurists, such as for example Ulpian.

Virgil, the great Roman poet, once wrote (Aeneid, VI:847-852):

Others (I can well believe) will hammer out bronze that breathes
with more delicacy than us, draw out living features
from the marble: plead their causes better, trace with instruments
the movement of the skies, and tell the rising of the constellations:
remember, Roman, it is for you to rule the nations with your power,
that will be your skill - to crown peace with law.

Thus you can see how legalism would sooner develop in the Latin west than in the Greek east. Hope this helps.
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 02:31:33 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.

Catholic and Orthodox also have Canon law.Why is Catholic legalistic while Orthodoxy is not?

Because the Latins in the West - the Romans - were the masters of the law, much more so than the Greeks. Thus, in the Eastern Roman Empire, where Greek was spoken, law school was entirely in Latin up until the 7th century. The 6th century Byzantine Emperor Justinian wrote his big civil code - the Corpus Juris Civilis - not in Greek, which the majority of his subjects spoke, but in Latin, because that was the language of the great jurists, such as for example Ulpian.

Virgil, the great Roman poet, once wrote (Aeneid, VI:847-852):

Others (I can well believe) will hammer out bronze that breathes
with more delicacy than us, draw out living features
from the marble: plead their causes better, trace with instruments
the movement of the skies, and tell the rising of the constellations:
remember, Roman, it is for you to rule the nations with your power,
that will be your skill - to crown peace with law.

Thus you can see how legalism would sooner develop in the Latin west than in the Greek east. Hope this helps.


So, How about Orthodoxy?

Does Orthodox church have a lot of rules,regulations and laws which a Christian must follow, like Catholic Church?
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 03:04:37 PM »

So, How about Orthodoxy?

Does Orthodox church have a lot of rules,regulations and laws which a Christian must follow, like Catholic Church?

Of course there are rules. It's not a 'build your own teddy bear' church. How many rules are 'a lot', though, is another story entirely...
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 03:20:31 PM »

Frankly, I never understood the whole "Filioque" thing, and I was raised RC. All I was taught is that there's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, co-equal and co-exist from the beginning of time. They didn't get into who is generated from who- they just stressed that they were equal. I suppose the Latin Creed just added it to stress that they were equal, to avoid Sabellianism, and they just didn't take it out over the years- and just simply don't want to give the Orthodox the satisfaction.
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 03:24:47 PM »

Frankly, I never understood the whole "Filioque" thing, and I was raised RC. All I was taught is that there's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, co-equal and co-exist from the beginning of time. They didn't get into who is generated from who- they just stressed that they were equal. I suppose the Latin Creed just added it to stress that they were equal, to avoid Sabellianism, and they just didn't take it out over the years- and just simply don't want to give the Orthodox the satisfaction.

[sarcasm] Studying the Filioque is so much fun! Why don't you try it? [/sarcasm]
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2012, 03:32:20 PM »

I have studied it- I personally find it "muddy water theology"- a theological issue that people love to debate on, is difficult to comprehend, and has little to actuali importance in the Church, besides having and Eastern and Western theologians squabbling and bickering for centuries. 
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.

So, How about Orthodoxy?

Does Orthodox church have a lot of rules,regulations and laws which a Christian must follow, like Catholic Church?

Of course there are rules. It's not a 'build your own teddy bear' church. How many rules are 'a lot', though, is another story entirely...

So, what is the difference between the list of rules, regulations and laws in Catholic and Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2012, 03:48:25 PM »

I'm a recent convert from Catholicism. Everything everyone stated is good. For me, the main difference is the role and necessity of the Pope.
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2012, 03:53:29 PM »

Is there any internet source about the canon law of Orthodox Church?

What is the main purpose of setting a list of canon law in Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2012, 04:20:27 PM »

Is there any internet source about the canon law of Orthodox Church?
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pedalion
What is the main purpose of setting a list of canon law in Orthodox Church?
What is "setting a list"?
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2012, 04:24:15 PM »

What is "setting a list"?


Why does Orthodox Church have to set so many rules, laws and regulations?
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2012, 04:32:10 PM »

What is "setting a list"?


Why does Orthodox Church have to set so many rules, laws and regulations?
To prevent anarchy. That's how it's the same Church Christ left two thousand years later, and Protestantism is splintered into thousands of sects in less than half a millenium.
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2012, 04:52:58 PM »

I am still a bit confused. Huh

Nowaday, Orthodox and Catholic Church/Christian also has many canon laws to obey and follow . Why Orthodox Church is not legalistic while Catholic is?
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2012, 07:46:26 PM »

I am still a bit confused. Huh

Nowaday, Orthodox and Catholic Church/Christian also has many canon laws to obey and follow . Why Orthodox Church is not legalistic while Catholic is?
For the same reason that sins committed by Catholics reflect on our entire Church, whereas sins committed by Eastern Orthodox Christians are just shrugged off as sinful human nature and does not reflect on the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole.
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2012, 08:06:53 PM »

I am still a bit confused. Huh

Nowaday, Orthodox and Catholic Church/Christian also has many canon laws to obey and follow . Why Orthodox Church is not legalistic while Catholic is?
For the same reason that sins committed by Catholics reflect on our entire Church, whereas sins committed by Eastern Orthodox Christians are just shrugged off as sinful human nature and does not reflect on the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole.
So you admit the adoption of legalism by the Vatican is sinful?
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2012, 09:20:00 PM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*



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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2012, 09:20:51 PM »

I didn't sack anyone

But if you did, you'd sack Moscow. Slim are the pickings in Constantinople.
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« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2012, 09:22:11 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son

In the context of what is expressed in the Creed.

Quote
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.

This pretty much sums it up.

Catholics tend to be more legalistic while Orthodox are more mystical.

Often we are mystical about our legalism, but on off days we can be legalistic about our mysticism.
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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2012, 09:26:56 PM »

Original sin, Immaculate conception

These are only an issue because of the dogmatization of the IC.

No, it's an issue because of the concept of inherited guilt--an issue which I would say is highly overlooked and not just a little mere difference that can be overlooked via different jurisdictions.
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« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2012, 09:29:12 PM »

Orthodox Church also has some canon laws.Is there any difference between the Canon law of Orthodox and Catholic?

Yes. Different canons.

So, How about Orthodoxy?

Does Orthodox church have a lot of rules,regulations and laws which a Christian must follow, like Catholic Church?

Of course there are rules. It's not a 'build your own teddy bear' church. How many rules are 'a lot', though, is another story entirely...

So, what is the difference between the list of rules, regulations and laws in Catholic and Orthodoxy?


I dont know about differnece, but from an Orthodox perspective, canons are not laws. The Greek word for canon means measuring stick or measurement or something. It's not a law, but something to strive for, knowing that even meeting all the canons may not be possible and even if it were, we're still imperfect and sinners.

There are also different kinds of canons. There are dogmatic canons that define our faith. And there are disciplinary canons which help guide the life of the Church. Some of these are more weighty than others. For example, there are canons which govern the movement of bishops--this is for good order. There's also a canon against allowing bears in church. This is so people are not killed and eaten during Liturgy.
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« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2012, 09:30:53 PM »

Is there any internet source about the canon law of Orthodox Church?

What is the main purpose of setting a list of canon law in Orthodox Church?

Do you really want to study Orthodoxy by asking a million questions at once? Or do you want, instead, to know who Christ really is?
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« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »

What is "setting a list"?


Why does Orthodox Church have to set so many rules, laws and regulations?

Rules establish order. Without order, you have chaos and lots of people go to hell.
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« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2012, 09:33:58 PM »

I think a good, overly-simplified way to describe the differences in regards to legalism in the RC and EO Churches is that in the RC Church, God is seen as more of a judge, and if you do something bad--like skip Church or break fasting etc--the RC Church emphasizes the guilt of the action you committed, whereas in Orthodoxy, God is more of a doctor, and if you do something bad--like the aforementioned things--there is more of an emphasis on the condition of your soul rejecting God's medicine, opposed to the guilt. We don't see these things as just rules God gives out to us for kicks that will either anger Him or appease Him, but treatments God has prescribed to us so that He can heal us.
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« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2012, 11:12:12 PM »

I am still a bit confused. Huh

Nowaday, Orthodox and Catholic Church/Christian also has many canon laws to obey and follow . Why Orthodox Church is not legalistic while Catholic is?
For the same reason that sins committed by Catholics reflect on our entire Church, whereas sins committed by Eastern Orthodox Christians are just shrugged off as sinful human nature and does not reflect on the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole.
So you admit the adoption of legalism by the Vatican is sinful?
No, I was referring to how when some Catholics have killed Eastern Orthodox throughout history, it's due to that "evil" Roman Catholic Church, but when it is pointed out that there have been Eastern Orthodox who killed Catholics, many just shrug it off.

I think you knew what I was getting at but, as usual, just prefer to troll.
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« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2012, 03:16:09 AM »

Is there any internet source about the canon law of Orthodox Church?

What is the main purpose of setting a list of canon law in Orthodox Church?

Do you really want to study Orthodoxy by asking a million questions at once? Or do you want, instead, to know who Christ really is?
I am interested in it as well.

I come from Protestant .And  Protestant often teaches that we have to know who Christ really is only through the bible.But Sola Scriptural is not the doctrine of Orthodoxy and private interpretation of Scripture is not recommended or is even prohibited  in Orthodoxy. How would an Orthodox Christian know the Christ? By what ways would an Orthodoxy Christian know who Christ really is ?
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« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2012, 04:55:53 AM »

By participating in the life of the Church that Jesus Christ left behind for us--as much as Protestants may deny it. This would include attending the worship services, listening to those long ancient hymns, reading the Bible with the guidance of the Church, saying the prayers, participating in the fasts and most of all participating in the Sacramental life. All of this together should put you in the direction of knowing Christ. Protestants water this down by rejecting the Church and just focusing on the Bible--and even then, they don't get the Bible in all of its fullness because the Bible was written for the Church by members of the Church, meant to be read in the context of the Church in accordance with the rest of the Holy Tradition that is only found within the Church.
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« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2012, 02:48:43 PM »

The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2012, 02:49:55 PM »

The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?

Yes.
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« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2012, 02:52:00 PM »

I always heard Catholic Christians mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?

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« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2012, 02:53:25 PM »

One more question.

I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?

Yes.
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« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2012, 03:01:43 PM »

Most Orthodox Church use St John Golden Mouth for their liturge. I heard some also use St. James Liturge. How about catholic church?
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« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2012, 03:07:35 PM »

Most Orthodox Church use St John Golden Mouth for their liturge. I heard some also use St. James Liturge. How about catholic church?


They can use many liturgies. The Ordinary form of the Latin Rite liturgy is the one most used, then some parishes use the Extraordinary "Tridentine" form of the Latin Rite liturgy. Eastern Catholics will use the same three liturgies used by the Orthodox (St. John Chrysostom's, St. Basil's and St. Gregory's) and the Oriental Catholics will use their local liturgies (such as the Maronite, Syro-Malabar etc.)
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« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2012, 03:12:54 PM »

Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?
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« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2012, 03:28:34 PM »

Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?

No.
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« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2012, 03:28:58 PM »

Is it a problem/ Is there any problem if many litugies are used within the same Church?
No. Since the Church is universal, it only makes sense that, throughout its history, various liturgies sprang up in different regions. All of the different Divine Liturgies/Masses in use are different expressions of the celebration of the same great mystery: the Holy Eucharist.
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« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2012, 09:38:31 PM »

Here we go...again  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.

As long as this doesn’t turn into a Catholic bashing thread, I think it is safe to simply discuss the differences and similarities, but that appears to be difficult for many people.  I have said many times before that if it were not for a small handful of things I could not work around, I would have become Roman Catholic.  The more I learned about Orthodoxy, the more I respected the Roman Catholic Church.  I suppose I am the odd ball.

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« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2012, 07:56:01 AM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......
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« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2012, 07:59:53 AM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......

Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths.
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« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*


"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.
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« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2012, 08:06:51 AM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......

Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths.
I just thought I'd qualify it for the those not as familiar with the faith as ourselves.
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« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2012, 08:31:57 AM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*


"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.

That's why I posted it in scare quotes. Nobody posting here on this forum was alive in 1204. Really, the "they sacked us" thing is silly.
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« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2012, 08:48:09 AM »

The Catholic Christian also place importance on the written work of Church Fathers and saints, like Orthodox Church?

Yes.
AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support its/Anselm's view of atonement?Is there any Church father teaching that Jesus ransoms us from Father?

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
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« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2012, 09:05:33 AM »

AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support it's/Anselm's view of atonement?

St. Augustine and then some other Latin Fathers. The Latin West used juridical terms to express the oikonomia of salvation.

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Pope St. Leo the Great, St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, etc. It's very much a Latin thing.
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« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2012, 09:07:43 AM »

AS what I know, satisfaction theory atonement is formed by Anselm after A.D 1000.Can Catholic Church find any written work of Church father to support it's/Anselm's view of atonement?

St. Augustine and then some other Latin Fathers. The Latin West used juridical terms to express the oikonomia of salvation.

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Pope St. Leo the Great, St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, etc. It's very much a Latin thing.
Latin people were so legalistic... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2012, 11:36:07 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
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« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2012, 11:57:31 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
Does Orthodox Church take any Church Father's view of purging or cleasing of soul after the death as its doctrine?
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« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2012, 12:01:06 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
Does Orthodox Church take any Church Father's view of purging or cleasing of soul after the death as its doctrine?

No specific one, no. However, as in the time of the ancient Church, individual Orthodox are free to believe a range of things about what happens after death.
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« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2012, 12:05:19 PM »

One more question.

I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?

Yes.

When and how did the term "Mass" originate.....Huh
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« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2012, 12:33:42 PM »

One more question.

I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?

Yes.

When and how did the term "Mass" originate.....Huh

The Latin words of dismissal were: "Ite, missa est".
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« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2012, 12:39:50 PM »



The Latin words of dismissal were: "Ite, missa est".

So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a means of dismissal.....Maybe Im not up on Latin meanings.  I've heard the term "Liturgy of the Mass" and this really doesn't seem to fit either....
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« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »

So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term?

Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck  Tongue

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« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2012, 10:36:16 PM »

Rome even left us and the "columbus found the new world in 1492" answer is 1054 A.D.  They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 


Im not sure based on your post if you knew that those "Catholics" were all excommunicated by the Pope after sacking Constantinople?
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« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2012, 10:42:22 PM »

So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term?

Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck  Tongue

(I'm just making something up now)

Except for the part where they learned Latin in Catholic school and had booklets with Latin on one page and the local language on the other. Boring stuff like that.  Roll Eyes Poor useless Latin, only giving birth to the Romance languages and countless terms in science and law. Silly Italians, can't they go back to putting tomato sauce on everything?
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« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2012, 11:03:49 PM »

Wait...when did Italians stop putting tomato sauce on everything? Mama mia! Shocked
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« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2012, 12:22:18 AM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*


"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.

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« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2012, 12:24:19 AM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it). 

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*


"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.

"I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!"
"Your winnings, sir."
"Oh thank you."

Sigh.

I should have known the OC.net weather pattern would reach its usual conclusion fairly quickly.
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« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2012, 12:25:06 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
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« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2012, 12:26:03 AM »

They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it).  

"They" sacked "us". *sigh*


"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.

"I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!"
"Your winnings, sir."
"Oh thank you."

Sigh.

I should have known the OC.net weather pattern would reach its usual conclusion fairly quickly.

Oh, right. History couldn't POSSIBLY have THAT interpretation. Sorry. What was I thinking? I should throw out the scholarly books and just read RC propaganda. Pope Innocent III (who wasn't that innocent) regretted and condemned the sacking, but he accepted the fait accompli. Not even an interdict for Venice, but instead rights and a glorious if ill-fated expansion of papal jurisdiction.
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« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2012, 12:27:59 AM »

I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one

Perhaps, though given my thoughts on materiality I'm not sure. *shrugs*  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2012, 01:12:39 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I've heard that Catholic Church used the doctrine of pugatory to make money in late Medieval.People can suffer less in pugatory fire if they donate more money to church.

How about 'Jesus ransoms us from Father'? Was this whole concept completely formed in late Medieval?

And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?
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« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2012, 01:51:21 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).
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« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2012, 01:56:15 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church).  Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.


However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates"  here is some info on them from an orthodox website
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
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« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2012, 03:31:48 AM »

Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2012, 03:39:37 AM »

Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?

Some do, yes. Others do a "centering prayer" thing. Most Catholics probably use other prayers though, such as the rosary.
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« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2012, 06:43:20 AM »

So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term?

Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck  Tongue

(I'm just making something up now)

Except for the part where they learned Latin in Catholic school and had booklets with Latin on one page and the local language on the other. Boring stuff like that.  Roll Eyes Poor useless Latin, only giving birth to the Romance languages and countless terms in science and law. Silly Italians, can't they go back to putting tomato sauce on everything?

LOL. Are you accusing me of hating Latin?
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« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2012, 08:31:51 AM »

And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?

No.
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« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2012, 09:36:35 AM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church).  Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.


However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates"  here is some info on them from an orthodox website
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absolved by these certificates in 16 -18century?
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« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2012, 10:01:48 AM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh
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« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2012, 10:05:58 AM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry
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« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry

Even if indulgences were/are wrong that doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church called a crusade and killed a puppy those things wouldn't have disprove her claim to infallibilty at all.
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« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2012, 10:15:33 AM »

Infallibility? What's it good for? Absolutely nothin'! Uh-huh!
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« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2012, 10:17:03 AM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry

Even if indulgences were/are wrong (something I do not say) it doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church would have called a crusade or killed a puppy wouldn't have disproven her claim to infallibilty at all.
Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...
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« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2012, 10:17:17 AM »

You don't discern between faith and praxis.

Praxis also should be ortho. And in this case teachings were also incorrect. The Church however later corrected Her mistake.
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« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2012, 10:26:39 AM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
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« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2012, 11:01:24 AM »

To the general topic here are some things that deserve mention

1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions

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« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2012, 11:02:41 AM »


1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions


1 has been done in the Churches of the East since long before the schism.

3 is a local Latin lower-t tradition.

What about 4, though? Those apparitions are optional to believe even for Latin Catholics, right?
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« Reply #100 on: December 28, 2012, 12:02:09 PM »

Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...

Walter, I'm not Orthodox but their faith is NOT "absolutely wrong"!!! It is most definitely the oldest and most reliably "right" of Christendom!

I can't help wondering if you're just looking for reasons to reject them (as well as my own less reliable but still venerable church)?

Don't throw away all your respect for the Faith based on a few mistakes some individual Christians in the past may have made!
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« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2012, 12:55:13 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?
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« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2012, 01:00:14 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?

Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.
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« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2012, 01:02:21 PM »


1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions


1 has been done in the Churches of the East since long before the schism.

3 is a local Latin lower-t tradition.

What about 4, though? Those apparitions are optional to believe even for Latin Catholics, right?

I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).

3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.

4.  I was referring to our approaches and how they differ, it was my understanding that the East view revelations as being a more private matter that should not be shared, in the west we often do keep the mystical revelations private till after the death of the individual but then if they do not contain error they can be promulgated.
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« Reply #104 on: December 28, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?

Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.

As what I know , The Pope/ Catholic Church can run countries and always have fightings in the Crusades War in medieval. The Catholic Church should always have the financial problem. Is it that Catholic Church turned the indulgence as a commodity in order to resolve its financial problem?

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?
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« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2012, 01:25:37 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No, but some bishops did.
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« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2012, 01:28:14 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.
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« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2012, 01:31:51 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.

No, it didn't happen in Russia, for example.
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« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2012, 01:34:14 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?

Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.

As what I know , The Pope/ Catholic Church can run countries and always have fightings in the Crusades War in medieval. The Catholic Church should always have the financial problem. Is it that Catholic Church turned the indulgence as a commodity in order to resolve its financial problem?

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.  To answer your question though it was not because of the fighting of the crusades, the money was raised often times for the building of churches or for the relief of the poor (like Peters Pence).
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« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2012, 01:36:44 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.  Sense the bishop holds primacy in his diocese if they sold indulgences then the Orthodox Church in that diocese approved of the selling of indulgences.
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« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2012, 01:37:39 PM »

I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).

The Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise. He was granted three marriages but the fourth was seen as adultry. When he married for the fourth time anyway he incurred the condemnation of the Patriarch and the eastern bishops but the Pope of Rome was so nice as to approve of it when he sent the emperor a dispensation.

3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.

Emphasis added. Thanks for confirming my point.

Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.

This. The Council of Trent condemned such abuses.

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« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2012, 01:40:37 PM »

Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?
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« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2012, 02:02:05 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?

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« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2012, 02:36:48 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.
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« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2012, 02:38:08 PM »

I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.

Wasn't it denied at Florence that the Latins meant a literal fire with purgatory?
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« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?
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« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2012, 02:40:35 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
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« Reply #117 on: December 28, 2012, 02:42:04 PM »

I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.

Wasn't it denied at Florence that the Latins meant a literal fire with purgatory?
It's quite possible. I would have to read up on it because I am not sure. I know that in Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, he mentions that the cleansing fire of purgatory is Christ himself.
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« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2012, 02:46:35 PM »

- Of course it's a material purging/cleansing. What else could it be?  angel

- What "disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines"? Things like contraception?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.
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« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2012, 02:47:19 PM »

I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).

The Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise. He was granted three marriages but the fourth was seen as adultry. When he married for the fourth time anyway he incurred the condemnation of the Patriarch and the eastern bishops but the Pope of Rome was so nice as to approve of it when he sent the emperor a dispensation.

3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.

Emphasis added. Thanks for confirming my point.

Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.

This. The Council of Trent condemned such abuses.



I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

As far as the Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise

1)  First Marriage (wife died)
2)  Second Marriage (wife died)
3)  Third Marriage (wife died)
4)  Fourth Marriage


What does that have to do with Ecclesiastical Divorce?  In the west we don't put a limit on the number or marriages (I guess that is another difference between us) and not only that it shows that the Pope was appealed to as the authority in settling the dispute between him and the Patriarch.
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« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2012, 02:48:24 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

In the context of my previous statement, you do not believe Christ has a vicar on earth that speaks with absolute authority like we Catholics do.  Pinning down Orthodox theology and discipline is like trying to pin down a tomato seed on your plate.

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.
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« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »

I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.
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« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2012, 03:20:35 PM »

Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.

Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  Grin
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« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2012, 03:21:44 PM »

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.

I don't recall... but seeing as how he was the only major figure (that I can recall, anyway) who stood in the way of union, and led the fight afterwards, let's not dismiss him so quickly...?  angel
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« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2012, 03:28:17 PM »

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.

I don't recall...

It's written on many scrolls in his icons.

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« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2012, 03:33:24 PM »

It's written on many scrolls in his icons.

It's all Greek to me...  Wink
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« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2012, 03:34:36 PM »

It's written on many scrolls in his icons.

It's all Greek to me...  Wink

That's what St. Mark of Ephesus must have said when the works of the Latin fathers were presented to him  Wink

Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.

Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  Grin

Allowing NFP does indeed sound quite hypocritical.
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« Reply #127 on: December 28, 2012, 09:40:47 PM »

Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.

Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  Grin

First I would like to say that to use NFP without a grave reason is a grave/mortal sin.

NFP is not at the same level of using Artificial methods of Birth Control because the essence of the act of martial relations is not frustrated. It is not sinful for a married couple to have relations during times of the month when the women is less likely to become pregnant.  It can be a mortal sin if the primary end of doing it is evil (selfishness, greed), not avoiding some evil (another child reducing the couple to abject poverty, government forced abortion, frail health of the women etc)

Divine revelation in Genesis 38 shows that God however harshly punishes any attempts to frustrate procreation by the spilling of seed, which in essence is what the use of condemns does.  It appears to break the natural law, because the essence of the marital act is for the man to put seed in the women which can result in a pregnancy.  The Catholic Church has always been consistent in its condemnation of the spilling of seed and of birth control.  NFP is an allowance  because the couple still copulates in a manner that still allows for pregnancy to happen and does not involve the loss of seed.

To my knowledge the Orthodox communions initially supported Paul VI Humane Vitae, but later in 2000 the Russian Synod allowed condoms.  However, I would describe what I have observed from being an outsider that there is harsh tension in the Orthodox community over the sinfulness of the act and to what degree it is a sin.  You have a local pastor in my area Father Josiah Trenham (Antiochian Orthodox St Andrews Riverside) who absolutely condemns any form of birth control, and to my knowledge I know Bishop Hilarion also is opposed to birth control.  Everyone one else is either silent or invokes "economia".

My point when I said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not the author of this confusion was to point out that in the Catholic Church the Pope has ruled definitively on the matter that all forms of artificial contraception are evil.   So it is safe to say the Catholic Church opposes artificial birth control, but you cannot say the Orthodox allows artificial birth control nor the Orthodox condemns artificial birth control because many voices without any absolute authority say different things.

SN I would be interested in a citation from the book Noonan wrote were he concludes that periodic continence would have been condemned by all the early fathers.  I am aware of some of the strict writings from the Fathers on matters like relations during Pregnancy and some of their very harsh comments about marriage but I would like to know more.


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« Reply #128 on: December 28, 2012, 09:42:44 PM »

I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.

As a discipline it goes back to the Apostles, I would have to look up how far the Canon goes back.  Eastern Catholics do have the Sunday Obligation requirement because it is one of the 6 precepts of the Church that all Catholics must obey.  I believe they have certain allowances granted (such as I think they are allowed to attend a Vespers service as an alternative to Divine Liturgy though I do not know for sure).
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« Reply #129 on: December 28, 2012, 09:54:43 PM »

domNoah,

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think you make particularly good points about things being definitive in Catholicism and unclear in Orthodoxy. I will (hopefully) come back tomorrow and post a bit more, but for right now I'll provide a couple quotes from Noonan. I no longer have the book in question, so I'm stuck with what little I typed into a notepad file, but fwiw here's what I found that might be relevant...

Quote
"'Contraception is a term which could be applied to any behavior that prevents conception. Sexual continence is contraceptive in effect; sexual intercourse when an ovum will not be fertilized avoids procreation as much as intercourse where a physical barrier is used to prevent the meeting of spermatozoa and ovum." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 1

"In addition to these three chemical or mechanical ways of blocking conception, there was belief in a sterile period for women... Indeed, the first of the several contraceptive measures which Soranos prescribes is avoidance of 'sexual intercourse at those periods which we said were suitable for conception' (Gynecology 1.19.61)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 16

"The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

"...once married, one may not avoid children. It is lawless and shameful to lie with one's wife where the conception of offspring is avoided: 'This is what Onan, the son of Juda, did, and God killed him for it.' You may marry to give an outlet to your incontinence, 'but you ought not to temper your evil so that you exterminate the good of marriage, that is, the propagation of children' (Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 2, 12, 12)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 137
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« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2012, 03:31:47 AM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.  Sense the bishop holds primacy in his diocese if they sold indulgences then the Orthodox Church in that diocese approved of the selling of indulgences.
I don't think the views, teachings or approval of some falliable bishops can represent the whole Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #131 on: December 29, 2012, 07:54:58 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
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« Reply #132 on: December 29, 2012, 07:59:19 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
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« Reply #133 on: December 29, 2012, 08:12:05 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?

Its faith and doctrines also keep changing , how do they explain?

I remember Catholic church even murdered the scientists who claimed the earth is in circle/oval shape in medieval when I learned history in college.(the faith that  built upon the Science....)
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« Reply #134 on: December 29, 2012, 08:33:06 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
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« Reply #135 on: December 29, 2012, 08:39:29 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not true (at least  history proves it),it is  only a claiming in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked
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« Reply #136 on: December 29, 2012, 08:43:08 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked

*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.
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« Reply #137 on: December 29, 2012, 08:48:02 AM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked

*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.

To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... Cry
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« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2012, 08:54:49 AM »

To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... Cry

Argh...

"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matthew 16:18)"

I think you just don't want to understand it.
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« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2012, 08:58:09 AM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided
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« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2012, 09:04:10 AM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided

Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
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« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2012, 09:07:12 AM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided

Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
That means church only does not fall about its faith and doctrine ?
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« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2012, 09:07:34 AM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided

Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
That means church only do not fall about its faith and doctrine ?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say all along.
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« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2012, 09:15:27 AM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?
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« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2012, 09:16:52 AM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.
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« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?
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« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2012, 02:57:48 PM »

domNoah,

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think you make particularly good points about things being definitive in Catholicism and unclear in Orthodoxy. I will (hopefully) come back tomorrow and post a bit more, but for right now I'll provide a couple quotes from Noonan. I no longer have the book in question, so I'm stuck with what little I typed into a notepad file, but fwiw here's what I found that might be relevant...

Quote
"'Contraception is a term which could be applied to any behavior that prevents conception. Sexual continence is contraceptive in effect; sexual intercourse when an ovum will not be fertilized avoids procreation as much as intercourse where a physical barrier is used to prevent the meeting of spermatozoa and ovum." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 1

"In addition to these three chemical or mechanical ways of blocking conception, there was belief in a sterile period for women... Indeed, the first of the several contraceptive measures which Soranos prescribes is avoidance of 'sexual intercourse at those periods which we said were suitable for conception' (Gynecology 1.19.61)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 16

"The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

"...once married, one may not avoid children. It is lawless and shameful to lie with one's wife where the conception of offspring is avoided: 'This is what Onan, the son of Juda, did, and God killed him for it.' You may marry to give an outlet to your incontinence, 'but you ought not to temper your evil so that you exterminate the good of marriage, that is, the propagation of children' (Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 2, 12, 12)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 137


Cheers My Friend, Smiley

I was definitely aware of Augustine teaching, though on sexual matters he is one of the harshest Fathers, including casting quite a harsh glance at relations when the women is pregnant, or when a couple is elderly.

I remember reading an article a while ago, about the Patristics on this matter and they also almost exclusively used Augustine, that is why I was curious if other Fathers weighed in on the matter.

It is important to remember though that while NFP is often sold as "just as good or better then ABC" by those obnoxious pseudo apostles of NFP in the Roman Catholic Church the fact remaining is this, it is absolutely possible to become pregnant while using NFP, and that if it is being done for the avoidance of children as the primary end not the avoidance of some evil (Desitituion, forced abortion, a women in frail health) then it is still a grave/mortal sin.


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."



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« Reply #147 on: December 29, 2012, 03:00:05 PM »

To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

That's scary.
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« Reply #148 on: December 29, 2012, 03:01:47 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.
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« Reply #149 on: December 29, 2012, 04:07:25 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

That's cool.

Naw biro, you're not going to hell. Much rather I.

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« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2012, 04:16:37 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biroGrin

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  Sad

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  Cool
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« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2012, 05:18:01 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biroGrin

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  Sad

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  Cool

God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.
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« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2012, 05:18:54 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.
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« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2012, 07:52:45 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

I can't tell whether you're serious or not. Since it's Christmas, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Ho ho ho!  Cool
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« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2012, 09:06:48 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.


And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.
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« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2012, 09:13:30 PM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked

*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.

To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... Cry


People are fallible.  People make mistakes, even the Pope and other bishops.  People are the weakness.  The Church itself is not fallible.
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« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2012, 09:15:48 PM »

To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

That's scary.

Perhaps this is in relation to women who purposely lost their children.  I don’t know, just guessing.
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« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2012, 09:16:47 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biroGrin

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  Sad

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  Cool

God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.

I think I guessed wrong in my previous post.
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« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2012, 09:17:58 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.


And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.
^ This.  Context is usually lost when picking only certain citations.
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« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2012, 12:44:05 AM »

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

How about the exact quote and source.

J Michael beat me to the punch; however, this paraphrase has upset 2 of the female members of the board who are (or were) connected to the Catholic Church
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« Reply #160 on: December 30, 2012, 01:40:37 AM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

and yes his body is still incorrupt to this day.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad). 

It is not a sin if a person tries to have children naturally and cannot. 
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« Reply #161 on: December 30, 2012, 02:03:21 AM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.


And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.


 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864
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« Reply #162 on: December 30, 2012, 02:35:01 AM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation.  St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

and yes his body is still incorrupt to this day.

He helped rejuvenate the Catholic Church in France post-Napoleon.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad).

We've gone around in circles about Humanae Vitae.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #163 on: December 30, 2012, 09:41:25 AM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation.  St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.


I disagree with you.  For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places. 

Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15  Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

As far as the Church Fathers go

"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1-4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps.”

Augustine, Against Faustus, 15:7, A.D. 400

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? What then?  Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with His laws?  Yet such turpitude.  The matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks."

John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 24, A.D. 391

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« Reply #164 on: December 30, 2012, 09:58:37 AM »


Augustine, Against Faustus, 15:7, A.D. 400

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? What then?  Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with His laws?  Yet such turpitude.  The matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks."

John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 24, A.D. 391

I'm not a big fan of contraception myself or anything but there were no oral contraceptives like the pill in antiquity. I don't think that the technology was advanced far enough to meddle with hormones. The "medicines of sterility" more likely refers to abortifacients and that's why St. John Chrysostom says "murder before birth".
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« Reply #165 on: December 30, 2012, 02:46:03 PM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

and yes his body is still incorrupt to this day.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad). 

It is not a sin if a person tries to have children naturally and cannot. 

Thanks for posting the original and the context--perhaps had you done so in your original post the 2 female members here who appeared to be upset by your "paraphrase" would not have been. 

It is also important, I think, to add (if I dare to presume to do so) to what St. John Viannay wrote, that if a woman repented, through the Sacraments,  of previously not bringing children into the world, either through contraception or abortion, when she was capable of doing so, her sin would be forgiven and she would not be condemned to hell.  But all of that would be between her, her confessor, and God--not us.
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« Reply #166 on: December 30, 2012, 02:47:39 PM »


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.


And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.



 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864

Yes, precisely what I meant.  Wink
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« Reply #167 on: December 30, 2012, 04:08:30 PM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation.  St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.


I disagree with you.  For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell?  It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.
 
Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

There are lots of threads on Natural Law and Scholasticism.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15  Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques.  Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).

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« Reply #168 on: December 30, 2012, 05:35:39 PM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation.  St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.


I disagree with you.  For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell?  It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.
 
Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

There are lots of threads on Natural Law and Scholasticism.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15  Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques.  Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).



My understanding is that IVF is frowned upon as being immoral by the Catholic Church.  How does the OC view it?
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« Reply #169 on: December 30, 2012, 05:44:30 PM »

I don't see anything wrong is that as long as no one is being murdered in the process.
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« Reply #170 on: December 30, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »

Here you go  Smiley

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation.  St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.


I disagree with you.  For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell?  It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.
 
Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

There are lots of threads on Natural Law and Scholasticism.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15  Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques.  Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).



My understanding is that IVF is frowned upon as being immoral by the Catholic Church.  How does the OC view it?

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The Orthodox view will always be to consult with one's priest, spiritual father and/or bishop to receive adequate spiritual guidance and moral strength.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/63/

The link mentions a leading Orthodox bioethicist, Fr. John Breck, and the potential warehousing/destruction of human beings.
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« Reply #171 on: December 30, 2012, 07:00:36 PM »

Does anyone remember this scene in the book Pierced by a Sword ... a Mormon dies and sees a light far off. As he gets closer he realizes that the light is actually the fires of hell, and a demon greets him with the words, Contraceptives have made you mine. He replies, I didn't know it was wrong.
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« Reply #172 on: December 30, 2012, 07:03:39 PM »

One more question.

I always heard Catholic Christian mentioning a service called " Mass". Is Mass as the same as Liturge?

Yes, although some understand "mass" to refer only to Western liturgies (the Roman Rite liturgy being the predominant one).
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« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2012, 10:22:25 PM »

PeterJ, YEAH! I remember that scene! Wonder if there's a sequel in which a certain self-righteous Catholic novelist is similarly greeted with the word "Divorce!"?
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« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2012, 10:36:11 PM »

 Shocked
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« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2012, 10:39:19 PM »

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son
Papal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.
Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.
The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......

Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths.

Actually, "speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals" is redundant. "Faith and morals" is one of the conditions entailed in "ex cathedra".
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« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2012, 04:49:30 PM »

As I see it...

To Catholicism there's only one real difference between the two sides that can't be explained away: what I call the scope of the Pope. Is his office divinely instituted to govern the whole church and teach for the church on faith and morals? Both sides believe the church is infallible; papal infallibility is a subset of church infallibility. Both sides believe the episcopate is divinely instituted (the bishops are successors to the apostles). But is the Pope's office, Bishop of Rome, just a man-made application for that divinely instituted episcopate, like the Bishop of Scranton or as the Orthodox believe about all their patriarchates? The last is what I think Orthodoxy teaches. (Orthodoxy doesn't per se hate the Pope! It venerates pre-schism Pope saints as Popes. As Ware wrote, in Orthodoxy a special place belongs to the Pope.)

Catholicism says sacramentally the two sides are the same but with that big difference, an inch wide but infinitely deep, they are on parallel tracks. Union is zero-sum; one side has to cave on that Pope issue. Since both sides claim to be the one true church, of course strict Orthodox rail against ecumenism.

The rest of it's either explainable (the filioque, purgatory*) or discipline not doctrine. Before the mid-1900s, being against contraception wasn't 'just a Catholic thing'; it was generally Christian. About it, most Orthodox now sound like mainline Protestants did in the '50s and evangelicals do now: plausible, cautious and conservative (for married couples only and only for good reasons; ask your pastor). Rome holds the line.

Beyond that? I'll stick to something not controversial here. I think we can agree that Rome made a huge mistake by trying to modernize its services in the '60s, making its liturgy more Protestant, less like the Orthodox. The professional theologians' claims, that the Second Vatican Council moved Rome closer to you, are, obvious to any visitor to each church, false. The older Mass (Latin Mass, Tridentine Mass) is obviously more like the Orthodox Liturgy. It's the preferred rite for Western Rite Orthodox! (That and orthodoxified versions of Anglican services. At first, the late 1800s, it was the only Western service the post-schism Orthodox approved for use.)

I think the Roman Rite in antiquity was probably simpler and duller than the '50s Mass. Around 1000 there was a reform in the Roman Rite in which much was copied from the more flowery Gallican Rite, which in turn was influenced by Eastern rites. So that and the many beliefs in common (priest, sacrifice made presence, Real Presence in the holy Gifts/Communion) explain the 'family resemblance' between '50s Catholicism and Orthodoxy. (Why a number of Roman Rite Catholics have taken refuge in Eastern Catholic churches.)

Orthodoxy to its lasting credit has kept alive a grassroots folk religion naturally resistant to wholesale changes ordered from the top, like the 'Reformation' or Vatican II. Historically Western Catholicism worked much like that too. (The Pope was actually a distant figure people didn't much think about.) Something the West should relearn from you.

*I'm not a credentialed theologian but 'from the Father through the Son', and prayer for the dead supposes an intermediate state. Orthodox enthusiastically pray for the dead. Purgatorial fire's not doctrine.
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« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I've heard that Catholic Church used the doctrine of pugatory to make money in late Medieval.People can suffer less in pugatory fire if they donate more money to church.

How about 'Jesus ransoms us from Father'? Was this whole concept completely formed in late Medieval?

And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?

No. There is no "Jesus ransoms us from Father" that I know of. St. Paul talks about the crucifixion paid as a ransom to death, IIRC. And no, there is no Orthodox Church father teaching that the Father is some sort of psychopath that has to be appeased by a divine whipping boy in order to love us again. That is not Christian at all and frankly is blasphemous.
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« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2012, 08:11:41 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

Nice try, but no cigar. No mention of materiality or created nature of the fire.
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« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2012, 08:15:01 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church).  Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.


However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates"  here is some info on them from an orthodox website
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates


In the West, IIRC, indulgences did not begin by being sold. They were originally part of the penance system whereby a person says a prayer and can have his penance reduced--this before the general RC teaching on purgatory began.

And what references we have of "absolution certificates" being sold in the east is sketchy. My understanding is that it was not a universal practice. It's certainly not traditional.
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« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2012, 08:18:03 PM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

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You will never be able to understand the Orthodox Church with your mind. Put that quest aside and just go to your local Orthodox church as much as you can and keep your heart open to God. All these questions will not do you good because they will never end.
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« Reply #181 on: December 31, 2012, 08:19:35 PM »

Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?

...

sigh

Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....Huh

INFALLIBLE ? Cry

Even if indulgences were/are wrong (something I do not say) it doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church would have called a crusade or killed a puppy wouldn't have disproven her claim to infallibilty at all.
Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...

Sin is absolved through the sacraments. We don't have indulgences in the Orthodox Church. We have baptism, holy communion, holy confession, and the other sacraments, prayers, repentance, fasting, faith, love, hope, and the mercy and grace of God.
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« Reply #182 on: December 31, 2012, 08:22:04 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Sale of anything holy is condemned--some things explicitly in holy canons, other things by the teachings of the fathers and saints through their word and example. Again, we have the consensus of the fathers--not teachings and doings limited to times and places.
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« Reply #183 on: December 31, 2012, 08:25:21 PM »

Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,

Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?

"Indulgences" has no single universal definition. It's one thing in one place, another in another. And you are still looking at the whole thing through Protestant propaganda, so it will be even harder to try and explain.
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« Reply #184 on: December 31, 2012, 08:29:14 PM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No. It seems to me an "aboslution certificate," which anyway is not a universal practice in the Orthodox Church, is received after the sacrament of confession, like a baptism certificate. Any sale thereof would be an abuse, and condemned.
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« Reply #185 on: December 31, 2012, 08:31:41 PM »

Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?

I thought both churches accepted all of them, but that each had different lists. Unless these are different from the Apostolic Canons.
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« Reply #186 on: December 31, 2012, 08:32:42 PM »

Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.

Well, it appeared to be RCC dogma at Florence. Perhaps now no longer.
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« Reply #187 on: December 31, 2012, 08:33:36 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

What disunity?
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« Reply #188 on: December 31, 2012, 08:35:42 PM »

The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.

Really?



Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?

I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

In the context of my previous statement, you do not believe Christ has a vicar on earth that speaks with absolute authority like we Catholics do.  Pinning down Orthodox theology and discipline is like trying to pin down a tomato seed on your plate.

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.

Diversity does not signify disunity, at least when it comes to disciplines.

Speaking of difficult to pin down, look at RCC dogma through the centuries. That's a headache.
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« Reply #189 on: December 31, 2012, 08:36:11 PM »

Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?

I thought both churches accepted all of them, but that each had different lists. Unless these are different from the Apostolic Canons.

The Apostolic Canons are a part of the Apostolic Constitutions.

Quote
The forty-seventh and last chapter of the eighth book of the Apostolic Constitutions contains the eighty-five Canons of the Apostles, which present themselves as being from an apostolic Council at Antioch. These canons were later approved by the Eastern Council in Trullo in 692 but rejected by Pope Constantine. In the Western Church only fifty of these canons circulated, translated in Latin by Dionysius Exiguus on about 500 AD, and included in the Western collections and afterwards in the "Corpus Juris Canonici".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Constitutions

Quote
The Church seems never to have regarded this work as of undoubted Apostolic authority. The Apostolic Constitutions were rejected as canonical by the Decretum Gelasianum. The Quinisext Council in 692 rejected most part of the work on account of the interpolations of heretics. Only that portion of it to which has been given the name Canons of the Apostles was received in the Eastern Christianity. Even if not regarded as of certain Apostolic origin, however, in antiquity the Apostolic Constitutions were held generally in high esteem and served as the basis for much ecclesiastical legislation. The Apostolic Constitutions were accepted as canonical by John of Damascus and, in a modified form, included in the 81 book canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
  Same source, my emphasis.
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« Reply #190 on: December 31, 2012, 08:36:58 PM »

I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.

Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.

St. Mark was there, he was not some pig-headed guy who never listened to what was said. You were not there. I'll take St. Mark.
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« Reply #191 on: December 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM »

Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?

Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?


Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? Shocked

*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.

To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... Cry


LOL. Yet another way Protestants read Scripure with blinders.
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« Reply #192 on: December 31, 2012, 08:40:18 PM »

But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... Undecided

Sin. Hello.
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« Reply #193 on: December 31, 2012, 08:41:42 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.
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« Reply #194 on: December 31, 2012, 08:44:41 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?
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« Reply #195 on: December 31, 2012, 08:47:01 PM »

To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Huh

That's scary.

Abortion is murder, lawful marital relations in which the couple tries to avoid the natural possibility of conception are penanced in the canons (by may be mitigated by the confessor), and mutual abstention from marital relations to devote themselves better to prayer is never condemned. So....?
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« Reply #196 on: December 31, 2012, 08:49:27 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.
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« Reply #197 on: December 31, 2012, 08:56:50 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.

I didn't realize that annulments were dogma.  Are they?  I do know that they are not marriage.

Quote
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility.
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is binding until death separates the spouses.
“There is no such thing as the annulment of a consummated sacramental marriage. The expression
is sometimes used inaccurately for the declaration of nullity of a union reputed to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such.”2 It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/28_Annulments.pdf

You're the one that stated that the RCC made new dogmas about marriage, so please show us, with citations, what those are.

Yes, annulments are pretty odd, and not always easily understood.  The whole concept of them kind of makes me squirm very uncomfortably, but they're not a dogma of the Church, afaik.  In the grand scheme of things, I suppose that one could say that they are a form of Catholic oikonomia. And, since there are no emperors any longer....
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« Reply #198 on: December 31, 2012, 09:22:15 PM »

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?


It is. Yet it is the RCC which has ben inconsistent and has made new dogmas.

Which "new dogmas" has the RCC created about the Sacrament of Marriage?

Seems to me like they have. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. Anullments are pretty odd.

There are different understandings of marriage in east and west. We stop at three. You keep going, at least for emperors.

I didn't realize that annulments were dogma.  Are they?  I do know that they are not marriage.

Quote
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility.
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is binding until death separates the spouses.
“There is no such thing as the annulment of a consummated sacramental marriage. The expression
is sometimes used inaccurately for the declaration of nullity of a union reputed to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such.”2 It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/28_Annulments.pdf

You're the one that stated that the RCC made new dogmas about marriage, so please show us, with citations, what those are.

Yes, annulments are pretty odd, and not always easily understood.  The whole concept of them kind of makes me squirm very uncomfortably, but they're not a dogma of the Church, afaik.  In the grand scheme of things, I suppose that one could say that they are a form of Catholic oikonomia. And, since there are no emperors any longer....

When you tell your wife she looks beautiful, does she ake you justify your feeling with evidence? I said it seemed to me. I'm not an expert on Roman Catholicism, it just seems to me that A, their teaching on marriage has changed and B, many of their other dogmas hae changed, besides the ones they invented.
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« Reply #199 on: January 01, 2013, 12:27:52 AM »

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?

No. It seems to me an "aboslution certificate," which anyway is not a universal practice in the Orthodox Church, is received after the sacrament of confession, like a baptism certificate. Any sale thereof would be an abuse, and condemned.

Not a universal practice, but such things did exist.

Quote
Absolution Certificates were a form of indulgences used in the Orthodox Christian churches of the eastern Mediterranean area during the sixteenth through eighteenth centuries, a use that arose from the influence of western European culture, particularly Latin, as Greek scholars and theologians increased their contacts and education at western schools.
[...]
These certificates were real indulgences that anyone could obtain which absolved them from sin. These were often obtainable for a specified amounts of money. According to Christos Yannaras, the absolution granted by these certificates had no connection with any participation by the faithful in the Mystery of Penance, nor in the Mystery of the Eucharist.
From: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates


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« Reply #200 on: January 01, 2013, 12:32:02 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God and God will use material to torture his enemies forever in hell?
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« Reply #201 on: January 01, 2013, 12:34:17 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"
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« Reply #202 on: January 01, 2013, 12:42:01 PM »

Do Catholic church believe that Hell is the absence of God¨

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. (Ps 139:Cool"

Most Protestant church believe God will abandon his enemies in hell and hell is the absence of God and His love. Also, God will hate, torture ,condemn, show violence and take revenge on his enemies  forever in hell and with the material fire forever.


How about Catholic Church?
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