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Author Topic: Muslim family taking Greek Orthodox school to High Court over hijab ban  (Read 9926 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: December 30, 2012, 03:23:39 PM »

Japanese schoolgirl uniforms

You do realise that a lot of those uniforms are just adult fetish wear, don't you?

Even if they were actual uniforms, the Japanese culture, religion, and moral compass is leagues away from ours in the West.
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« Reply #181 on: December 30, 2012, 03:47:21 PM »

Japanese schoolgirl uniforms

You do realise that a lot of those uniforms are just adult fetish wear, don't you?

Even if they were actual uniforms, the Japanese culture, religion, and moral compass is leagues away from ours in the West.
Yes, there is alot of water between us.

Secondly, I find interesting parallels to stereotypical Prussian/German culture. The neighboring countries like Korea have the same kind of attitude towards Japanese based on parallel WW2 experiences. The same approach about traditional unquestioning respect towards authority, similar militarism and imperialism, which in both cases was overly self-confident and unfortunately brutal and uncompromising toward opponents.

In any case, these are stereotypes found among their neighbors, who themselves can sometimes themselves be authoritarian, at least among themselves (eg. within Chinese or Russian culture, for example).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 04:03:57 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #182 on: December 31, 2012, 07:13:16 AM »

Has anyone, other than myself, gone to this schools webpage to see if they even utilize school uniforms and if so, what do they look like?  There is a lot of speculation and guessing going on when a quick visit to the school page will answer this simply question.  But, I will do it for you.

Yes, they have uniforms. 
Yes, with the exception of what appears to be kindergarten, they all look the same.
No, the females to not have any head coverings.  It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.

Does it stipulate they can't?

you're right, it doesn't matter one way or another what we think.


Point is, what did the school think or declare before she enrolled about headcoverings?

We're not getting any info on that either way.

No, the point is the school makes its own rules. 

If they require females to wear head coverings, it’s their choice, but they said no.  There appears to be a standard uniform code and anything outside that code is not accepted. 

If I am in charge of an institution and I say, “You will wear this and this,” but I do not exclude what you can wear, you think it acceptable.  However, the truth is, when I say, “You will wear this and this,” that is all you are going to wear.  If you don’t have permission, the answer is no.  How long of a dress code do you want?  If you mention all the things you can’t wear rather than was you are allowed to wear, the book would be about 3 tons.  Let’s be rational about this whole thing.
Yes, let's be rational is right. Let's use a little logic here;

1. The family is Muslim.

2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

3.The school reportedly had some sort of a "private discussion" about the dress code (although no one is telling us what was agreed upon in said meeting) prior to their enrollment.

4. Muslim girls begin to start wearing headcoverings around the age of seven.

5. School forbids girl from following her religion.

Now, like I said, let's use a little logic here. You're telling us  that this school had absolutley no knowledge of Muslim tradition and none of this was ever acknowledged before the family signed on until she began to cover herself?

I find this hard to believe.

Someone is being disingenuous here, either the school was too vague about their own rules or they distinctly mentioned the ban on hijab or headcoverings in the private meeting which the Muslims in turn disregarded or had a change of heart in complying to the rule.

I'm sure all this will come out in time or in the courts.

Until then all we can do is speculate.
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« Reply #183 on: December 31, 2012, 07:18:20 AM »

The Greek school must do one thing: hire a camel and send the student with her family to Mecca. The Muslima is free even to cover herself in shrouds in the house of Hubal-lah.  Grin
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« Reply #184 on: December 31, 2012, 07:21:46 AM »

Japanese schoolgirl uniforms

You do realise that a lot of those uniforms are just adult fetish wear, don't you?

Even if they were actual uniforms, the Japanese culture, religion, and moral compass is leagues away from ours in the West.
Actually, if you ask many Japanese they will tell you that the pollution of their culture is mainly coming from Western influence.

You can see the whoreification of their young women even at that age from those pics and that is definitely not traditional Japanese dress. Japanese culture prior to the American/Western infestation after WWII was one of the most conservative socities on the planet.


Women in traditional Japanese garb here;


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« Reply #185 on: December 31, 2012, 10:00:23 AM »

Quote
2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

Why do you assume the school could deny her entering the school? Turn it around, the family KNEW it was NOT a Muslim school.
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« Reply #186 on: December 31, 2012, 10:07:41 AM »

Quote
2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

Why do you assume the school could deny her entering the school? Turn it around, the family KNEW it was NOT a Muslim school.


These are two fails I mentioned in the OP.
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« Reply #187 on: December 31, 2012, 10:10:26 AM »

Quote
2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

Why do you assume the school could deny her entering the school? Turn it around, the family KNEW it was NOT a Muslim school.


These are two fails I mentioned in the OP.

Yes, I know, and your (our) interlocutor has not addressed the point, yet, only danced around it.
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« Reply #188 on: January 01, 2013, 08:20:50 AM »

Quote
2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

Why do you assume the school could deny her entering the school? Turn it around, the family KNEW it was NOT a Muslim school.

I don't base my logic on assumptions usually. Is there any evidence that the school couldn't deny them entry?

Anyway, they only let in so many students a year and while seemingly only recognizing Christianity in their admissions policy but other faiths are eligible to enter. They let this family in for a reason, my guess is maybe for high academic reasons.

From the article;

"St Cyprian's admits 52 pupils each year. While children from other religions are eligible, the admissions policy only mentions Catholic and other Christian faiths"


And being a Muslim school is irrelevant. they were already exemplary students in following th school's religious structure.

"Mrs Magliocco said the girl had otherwise observed all of the school's Greek Orthodox practices."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:21:33 AM by Charles Martel » Logged

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« Reply #189 on: January 01, 2013, 10:28:15 AM »

Quote
2. The school knowing full well the family was Muslim and allowed then to enroll anyway.

Why do you assume the school could deny her entering the school? Turn it around, the family KNEW it was NOT a Muslim school.

I don't base my logic on assumptions usually. Is there any evidence that the school couldn't deny them entry?
Then why start now? Does it matter one way or the other outside your HYPOTHETICAL scenario? No.
Quote
Anyway, they only let in so many students a year and while seemingly only recognizing Christianity in their admissions policy but other faiths are eligible to enter. They let this family in for a reason, my guess is maybe for high academic reasons.

Guessing again, aren't you? Not that I care what reason or basis was used to admit her.
Quote
From the article;

"St Cyprian's admits 52 pupils each year. While children from other religions are eligible, the admissions policy only mentions Catholic and other Christian faiths"


And being a Muslim school is irrelevant. they were already exemplary students in following th school's religious structure.

"Mrs Magliocco said the girl had otherwise observed all of the school's Greek Orthodox practices."


Again...SO WHAT? And again, the school did not throw her out.

You continue to demand 'evidence' while you continually rely on your own conjecture.
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« Reply #190 on: January 02, 2013, 11:16:27 PM »

Writing as part of the Orthodox Community in London and a teacher the amount of general ignorance about both this particular school and the British Education system is frankly astounding. Also, amazed to see the entrenched cultural differences across Orthodoxy.

The school is a state school with a faith character .
Almost 7,000 of the 21,000 state schools in England are religious - but almost all are linked to the Anglican and Catholic churches.
This is the first ever Greek Orthodox School and it was set up with a lot of time, investment and sheer hard work by the mainly Greek Cypriot community in London. All schools in the UK have a compulsory daily act of Christian worship and Religious Education lessons. In purely state schools this "worship" is usually a liberal, feel-good, let's be nice to each other mish mash - with no other doctrinal content.
In this school worship follows Orthodox patterns and Religious Education is from an Orthodox perspective. The parents who send their children there sign up to that and follow that. The children start the day with the sign of the cross etc. This girl's little brother is there and makes the sign of the cross etc. In fact, quite a number of the children are from Black Caribbean or Black African families and follow the Orthodox practices. In their final year at the school they go on a trip to Cyprus and are warmly welcomed by the Church there.

Unfortunately, rather than being placed in North London, where most of the Greek Orthodox community is based, it is in South London where the Greeks and Orthodox overall are very much a minority. However, it takes children of all faiths, as I said. Priority is given to the Orthodox and then other Christians. They are quite rigid in their discipline and do not allow any bending of the rules. School uniform is standard throughout all schools in England and is generally seen as a means of encouraging discipline and good behaviour.

Personally, I think the school could have been more flexible and allowed the hijab. But not because all girls should wear headscarves in school. We are not the Taliban - and quite shocked at the misogynistic views that some Afghani Imams wouldn't even say coming from some "Orthodox" here. It is not a Church and even 100 years ago young pre-pubescent girls did not have their heads covered in primary school in traditional Orthodox countries - whereas adult women wore head coverings as a matter of course.
The issue here is not the girl's modesty. She is barely 9 years old and has not worn a hijab for the past two years at the school (which she joined at 7 years old - schooling starts at 4 in the UK).   She had previously gone to a private school and the parents enrolled her in the Orthodox school signing up to follow its worship and ethos. The abhorrent idea is that somehow the male teachers at the school would harbour sexual desire for a 9 year old girl and therefore she has to cover up from their advances. It is the implication that the male teachers are some sort of pedophiles so the girl has to cover up! That is truly outrageous!

What is also interesting is of the thousands of faith schools across the UK - many with similar strict uniform - they choose to pick on the Greek Orthodox one. They were always free to enrol their daughter in another kind of school. But maybe they figured like many of the Slavic background people here that Orthodoxy means headscarves so their daughter would fit in. Or maybe it's an old Muslim tradition to pick on the Orthodox - old habits die hard.

The school should have just allowed it - purely for diplomatic reasons. It really is not a big deal. I teach lots of girls with headscarves in a purely non-denominational school, I also taught in an Anglican state school that tolerated them (they had to be in the colours of the school uniform in both schools). It is interesting how many in their late teens leave the house in a scarf to please their parents and then take it off at school. Or where deeply unsuitable clothing on the rest of their body (midriffs etc) but keep the headscarves as a Muslim tribal badge.

The other issue is, where would it end? Would they then start demanding wash areas, and a Muslim place for prayer, and halal food on the menu, exceptions made for Ramadan and Eid, Muslim teaching in the classroom etc etc.

The question really is do you think that the male teachers in this Greek Orthodox School are pedophiles who would make advances towards a 9 year old girl. Her parents obviously think they are!

Also worth noting - there are many Muslim girls who do not cover up. Also, in Turkey - where our Patriarchate is based (the school is Thyateira, EP) hijabs are also banned in all state schools there. That is in a mainly Muslim country.


« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 11:22:30 PM by Marinaki » Logged
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« Reply #191 on: January 24, 2013, 08:20:10 PM »

I lament the fact that head coverings have become political symbols in the culture wars.
My grandparents still wore hats whenever they went outside the home to do anything until the 1980's.

It is true that at the age of nine years old there is not as strict a view taken toward wearing a head covering.
Children are frequently exempt from certain customs until they are older.
On the other hand there is no reason a nine year old can not have her head covered either, especially being a female.

It seems to me that traditionally minded God-fearing people, whether moslem or christian, are disliked by those who more easily accept
the secularized "man-worshipping" culture, including those the very "sophisticated" greek orthodox people that want compromise themselves into it.

Now what some forget however, is that the hijab which simply means covering could theoretically extend to covering the face as well. Thats the real difference between christians and moslems. Although that is partially cultural, as even many men cover their faces in certain tribes around north africa. If christians and moslems are going to be at odds with each other, it ought not be over the basic idea of the head being covered.

What was once a common tradition throughout the western christian world has in the later 20th century experienced great unpopularity.

Men and women want to dress the same. Everyone wants to be equal and have the same roles.
But God makes us different and unique and to fulfill certain tasks and certain roles - the illusion of complete freedom is the tyrrany of subjucation.

The truth is that a woman who dresses like a man is less free than one who dresses like a woman, and vice versa for men.

I read elsewhere:

Quote
Conservative Amish and Mennonite women wear an outer bonnet (usually black) in obedience to the Biblical commands given in 1 Tim. 2:9-15, 1 Peter 3:1-6, and Titus 2:3-5 that a Christian woman should be discreet, chaste, modest, sober-minded, in subjection, meek and quiet, and shamefaced. The bonnet fosters the proper sense of godly reserve and shamefacedness, especially in regards to interaction with the opposite sex, that is becoming of a Christian woman.
These women would also wear white cap-style headcovering or "veiling", often made of opaque mesh, under their bonnet, in obedience to the commands given in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. These commands are that a Christian woman should have long uncut hair, and that it should be modestly covered with a veil that is a sign of her being under the authority of her husband or father.
Additionally in the bible it says a woman must worship with her head covered and in the Amish and mennonite faith one should be prepared to pray and worship at anytime. Therefore, their heads are covered all the time.

If it means anything to anyone, I can probably find you a few westernized Orthodox secondary schools that also require men to shave their beards off !!  (It doesnt take a royal edict from Tsar Peter the Great !)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 08:26:39 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

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« Reply #192 on: March 15, 2013, 02:37:22 AM »


I was looking at the girl with the red hair in the upper left corner and the one below her, and wondered:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 02:40:09 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #193 on: March 15, 2013, 07:40:54 AM »

I was looking at the girl with the red hair in the upper left corner and the one below her, and wondered:


I've read somewhere, that yes.
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« Reply #194 on: March 15, 2013, 07:52:42 AM »

Remember that Muhammad take a nine year old girl as a wife and knew her (in the Biblical) sense. He is for Moslems the exemplar for all behaviour.

That is something sobering to reflect upon, especially at a time when there is so much concern over adults preying upon underage children.
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