OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 04:18:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Muslim family taking Greek Orthodox school to High Court over hijab ban  (Read 10597 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #135 on: December 25, 2012, 07:27:11 AM »

These Muslims do not wear them:


Soooooo, anyway...hijab is a muslim garment and I understand why a private Orthodox school would not allow it to be worn.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 07:28:15 AM by Kerdy » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #136 on: December 25, 2012, 08:00:10 AM »

Soooooo, anyway...hijab is a muslim garment

 Roll Eyes



« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:00:37 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #137 on: December 25, 2012, 08:19:32 AM »

You have an unparalleled skill for making non-points.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #138 on: December 25, 2012, 08:22:33 AM »

Soooooo, anyway...hijab is a muslim garment

 Roll Eyes



The monastic Habit: khiton, undercassock, mantle, klobuk, paraman, etc.

 Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:26:22 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #139 on: December 25, 2012, 09:07:59 AM »

 Roll Eyes Thread going nowhere...
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #140 on: December 25, 2012, 12:37:06 PM »

The monastic Habit: khiton, undercassock, mantle, klobuk, paraman, etc.

How are they different from hijabs?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 12:37:25 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #141 on: December 25, 2012, 01:09:01 PM »

Because as I tried to explain in my earlier post, Michal, it is more than just a piece of fabric. Yes, they look similar, but their motivations are different. Hijab was invented for Muslim women to be identified as Muslim women and "not troubled" (or whatever translation your prefer). Is that why nuns wear their coverings? No. So they're not comparable.

[Incidentally, a friend of mine who got a degree in Near Eastern/Arabic history (with a specialization in interactions between early Islam and the Byzantine empire) at NYU told me that the real roots of the hijab lie in harassment of Muhammad's wives by people in Arabia due to their being recognized. One of his companions told him something like "You know, your wives would be harassed a lot less if they couldn't be identified", and voila, the hijab was born. I don't know how true this is, but apparently he got it from some Arabic source.]
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #142 on: December 25, 2012, 01:13:57 PM »

Because as I tried to explain in my earlier post, Michal, it is more than just a piece of fabric. Yes, they look similar, but their motivations are different.

Did that school ban "motivations" or a piece of fabric?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 01:16:10 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #143 on: December 25, 2012, 01:33:13 PM »

That was not your question. You asked how they're different than the hijab. That can be answered without reference to the school's decision. Quit moving the goal posts, Michal.
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #144 on: December 25, 2012, 01:37:15 PM »

People do not put on "motivations" or "ideologies". They put on specially formed pieces of cloth. And my question is what it the (real / material) difference between the ones called hijab and monastic habit as I do not see anyone.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #145 on: December 25, 2012, 01:43:04 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Logged
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #146 on: December 25, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Seems modesty went out with Byzantium as well.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #147 on: December 25, 2012, 08:35:06 PM »

Because as I tried to explain in my earlier post, Michal, it is more than just a piece of fabric. Yes, they look similar, but their motivations are different.

Did that school ban "motivations" or a piece of fabric?
Please stop running around in circles.  
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:40:13 PM by Kerdy » Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #148 on: December 25, 2012, 08:39:14 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Seems modesty went out with Byzantium as well.

Modesty isn't asking women to constantly have their heads covered, or asking women to cover most of their body.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #149 on: December 25, 2012, 08:39:43 PM »

People do not put on "motivations" or "ideologies". They put on specially formed pieces of cloth. And my question is what it the (real / material) difference between the ones called hijab and monastic habit as I do not see anyone.
I suppose US Army troops and Nazi SS troops were the same in WW2 as well.  I mean, both were well trained in an organized military, both had weapons, both wore military uniforms, both killed their ememy.  They are essentially the same, right?

A poor example to be certain, but I hope the irrational correlation presented makes my point.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:42:50 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #150 on: December 25, 2012, 08:46:02 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Seems modesty went out with Byzantium as well.

Modesty isn't asking women to constantly have their heads covered, or asking women to cover most of their body.
Actually true modesty is a woman doing it on her own volition.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #151 on: December 25, 2012, 08:51:32 PM »

People do not put on "motivations" or "ideologies". They put on specially formed pieces of cloth. And my question is what it the (real / material) difference between the ones called hijab and monastic habit as I do not see anyone.
I suppose US Army troops and Nazi SS troops were the same in WW2 as well.  I mean, both were well trained in an organized military, both had weapons, both wore military uniforms, both killed their ememy.  They are essentially the same, right?
A poor example to be certain, but I hope the irrational correlation presented makes my point.
Yes they were all soldiers. This includes the Red Army of the Soviets, the allies of the American Army.

 That is a poor example in a way because just about all fighting men on every side believed that "God" was on their side.

Just like the monastics and the hijab-wearing Muslims.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #152 on: December 25, 2012, 08:55:34 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Seems modesty went out with Byzantium as well.

Modesty isn't asking women to constantly have their heads covered, or asking women to cover most of their body.
Actually true modesty is a woman doing it on her own volition.

You have a really weird idea of modesty, or at least an idea that seems incredibly misogynistic.

To me, if a girl wears shorts slightly above her knee rather than shorts up almost to her crotch, she is being modest. The other day there was a girl in Chipotle who basically had those obscenely short shorts and they were kind of a similar appearance as Michael Jackson's glove. It even caught the attention of the older women in the store. I would consider that obscene. However, if a girl were to wear knee-high shorts, she is being modest.

I would like to see more girls wear skirts, not because I have some screwed-up view of modesty, but because I think they are actually more attractive and beautiful that way.

There was a time, not too long ago, when girls weren't allowed to wear pants because they were seen as too "sexy" and obscene, even though they showed no skin and men were allowed to wear pants. In fact, there was even a time when pants were considered barbaric and obscene.

If we stuck with antiquated ideas of modesty, we'd all look like the Amish.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:57:52 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #153 on: December 25, 2012, 09:15:15 PM »

The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Seems modesty went out with Byzantium as well.

Modesty isn't asking women to constantly have their heads covered, or asking women to cover most of their body.
Actually true modesty is a woman doing it on her own volition.

You have a really weird idea of modesty, or at least an idea that seems incredibly misogynistic.

To me, if a girl wears shorts slightly above her knee rather than shorts up almost to her crotch, she is being modest. The other day there was a girl in Chipotle who basically had those obscenely short shorts and they were kind of a similar appearance as Michael Jackson's glove. It even caught the attention of the older women in the store. I would consider that obscene. However, if a girl were to wear knee-high shorts, she is being modest.

I would like to see more girls wear skirts, not because I have some screwed-up view of modesty, but because I think they are actually more attractive and beautiful that way.

There was a time, not too long ago, when girls weren't allowed to wear pants because they were seen as too "sexy" and obscene, even though they showed no skin and men were allowed to wear pants. In fact, there was even a time when pants were considered barbaric and obscene.

If we stuck with antiquated ideas of modesty, we'd all look like the Amish.
I think you have it backwards, the way some of these woman are dressing (or not) with all their parts hanging out all over and exposed we seem to be moving back in time and look like some of those primitive tribes from National Geographic where the men treat women like property and take them at will. you want to talk about a twisted idea of "modesty".

We are removing all barriers for the social  mores and values of a society and won't be long to we descend back to the brain of the beast.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,438


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #154 on: December 25, 2012, 11:50:06 PM »

^I'm glad somebody is thinking clearly!

Quote
The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Really? Where did you derive that sentiment from?

Personally, I find modesty as a beautiful expression of faith, and find it hard to understand why some women don't want to wear headscarves.
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #155 on: December 26, 2012, 12:17:42 AM »

^I'm glad somebody is thinking clearly!

Quote
The Muslim practice of the Hijab actually has partial roots in Byzantium. But of course, this isn't ancient Byzantium, and that was a cultural thing rather than religious.
Really? Where did you derive that sentiment from?

Personally, I find modesty as a beautiful expression of faith, and find it hard to understand why some women don't want to wear headscarves.

I think you have words confused. The Muslim Hijab actually does have parts of its origin in the Byzantine Empire, where the practice of women (more especially higher ranking women rather than lower-class women) was to cover themselves, often to show position rather than modesty. It wasn't rooted in the Christian faith, but rather in the original practice of many Roman women prior to the Christianization of the Empire.
Logged
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,438


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #156 on: December 26, 2012, 12:20:21 AM »

Sorry, I wasn't clear, how did you develop the understanding that wearing headcoverings was simply a cultural thing for Byzantine women?
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #157 on: December 26, 2012, 01:55:38 AM »

Sorry, I wasn't clear, how did you develop the understanding that wearing headcoverings was simply a cultural thing for Byzantine women?

It wasn't universal among all women for one, it was among the more well off families rather than the poor and was inherited from the ancient Romans rather than the ancient Jews.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #158 on: December 26, 2012, 01:57:19 AM »

Congratulations on side tracking the real issue here!  Bottom line, it's up to the school. 
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #159 on: December 26, 2012, 02:53:01 PM »

So then, whose standards of modesty should we use for secular society? What time period? What culture?

Should women dress like this:



If so, which one?
and that doesn't even include Asia.
Logged
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2012, 07:36:08 AM »

Congratulations on side tracking the real issue here!  Bottom line, it's up to the school. 
So the school has absolute power.

Tell me, would you feel the same if they banned her for her race or ethnicity?
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2012, 12:15:12 PM »

So then, whose standards of modesty should we use for secular society? What time period? What culture?

Should women dress like this:
I don't see why some Orthodox Christians make such a fuss and complaint about young women who want to wear headcovering? Yes, of course, if the outfit covers the whole face except for a small slit for the eyes, it would present a problem of identification. But for a simple scarf or covering of the head, I don't see the problem that some Orthodox Christians on this forum have with that.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:16:15 PM by stanley123 » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »

Can someone move all these posts out of "news" so I can make some acerbic points?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,086


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2012, 07:24:16 PM »

Can someone move all these posts out of "news" so I can make some acerbic points?

Maybe you could start a spinoff thread in Other Topics. Just a thought.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2012, 08:47:44 PM »

Congratulations on side tracking the real issue here!  Bottom line, it's up to the school.  
So the school has absolute power.

Tell me, would you feel the same if they banned her for her race or ethnicity?
Yes, it's a private school.  They make the rules.

They didn't, but for clarification, do you mean in the same way some schools are male or female only or how some are restricted to a certain race?  Like those schools?  Or do you mean like scholarships which are reserved for specific ethnical groups?  Something like those?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:51:08 PM by Kerdy » Logged
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,217



WWW
« Reply #165 on: December 29, 2012, 06:41:41 PM »

One of the big problems with the school's logic is not that it is anti-Muslim in particular, but that it can apply similarly to Orthodox.

The school's logic can be that the veil discriminates against women. But that is one of the occasional claims made against women wearing veils in Orthodox countries. St Paul said women would be submissive to their husbands as heads of their families, and the husbands would have to respect their wives in return. St Paul's idea of the husband being the protecting head of the family though has been sometimes depicted as anti-female. So this kind of reasoning used against Muslim head coverings can then be used against Orthodox women.

Another kind of reasoning can be that the headscarf is showing a strong religious character in a school that should be equal or without a religion showing itself strongly. But this thinking can also be used against Orthodox girls who are more strongly religious.

I think Orthodox who care about the issue should be OK with women choosing a custom where it matches an Orthodox one, rather than banning it because it's part of a religion with whose basics we disagree.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 06:42:22 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #166 on: December 29, 2012, 08:50:59 PM »

People do not put on "motivations" or "ideologies". They put on specially formed pieces of cloth. And my question is what it the (real / material) difference between the ones called hijab and monastic habit as I do not see anyone.
I suppose US Army troops and Nazi SS troops were the same in WW2 as well.  I mean, both were well trained in an organized military, both had weapons, both wore military uniforms, both killed their ememy.  They are essentially the same, right?
A poor example to be certain, but I hope the irrational correlation presented makes my point.
Yes they were all soldiers.

In this case, I suppose clothing is clothing, whether it be a habit, summer dress, string bikini or a bowtie.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #167 on: December 29, 2012, 08:55:32 PM »

One of the big problems with the school's logic is not that it is anti-Muslim in particular, but that it can apply similarly to Orthodox.

The school's logic can be that the veil discriminates against women. But that is one of the occasional claims made against women wearing veils in Orthodox countries. St Paul said women would be submissive to their husbands as heads of their families, and the husbands would have to respect their wives in return. St Paul's idea of the husband being the protecting head of the family though has been sometimes depicted as anti-female. So this kind of reasoning used against Muslim head coverings can then be used against Orthodox women.

Another kind of reasoning can be that the headscarf is showing a strong religious character in a school that should be equal or without a religion showing itself strongly. But this thinking can also be used against Orthodox girls who are more strongly religious.

I think Orthodox who care about the issue should be OK with women choosing a custom where it matches an Orthodox one, rather than banning it because it's part of a religion with whose basics we disagree.

It also could be as simple as it isn't part of the approved school clothing guidelines with no discriminatory influence or social etiquette influence at all.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #168 on: December 29, 2012, 09:03:15 PM »

Has anyone, other than myself, gone to this schools webpage to see if they even utilize school uniforms and if so, what do they look like?  There is a lot of speculation and guessing going on when a quick visit to the school page will answer this simply question.  But, I will do it for you.

Yes, they have uniforms. 
Yes, with the exception of what appears to be kindergarten, they all look the same.
No, the females to not have any head coverings.  It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.
Logged
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,217



WWW
« Reply #169 on: December 29, 2012, 09:33:59 PM »

No, the females to not have any head coverings. It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.
If it's that simple, what is the point of discussing anything. eg.: School X doesn't allow crosses. It doesn't matter if you think they should, they don't.

I happen to think if a person in an Orthodox school wants to wear crosses or religious clothes matching Orthodox traditions, like modest dresses or veils for girls, they should be allowed to.

Regards.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 09:37:48 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2012, 09:52:34 PM »

Congratulations on side tracking the real issue here!  Bottom line, it's up to the school.  
So the school has absolute power.

Tell me, would you feel the same if they banned her for her race or ethnicity?
Yes, it's a private school.  They make the rules.

They didn't, but for clarification, do you mean in the same way some schools are male or female only or how some are restricted to a certain race?  Like those schools?  Or do you mean like scholarships which are reserved for specific ethnical groups?  Something like those?
I believe they would never stand for racial intolerance as much as religious, that's all.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,138


« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2012, 09:55:23 PM »

Has anyone, other than myself, gone to this schools webpage to see if they even utilize school uniforms and if so, what do they look like?  There is a lot of speculation and guessing going on when a quick visit to the school page will answer this simply question.  But, I will do it for you.

Yes, they have uniforms. 
Yes, with the exception of what appears to be kindergarten, they all look the same.
No, the females to not have any head coverings.  It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.

Does it stipulate they can't?

you're right, it doesn't matter one way or another what we think.


Point is, what did the school think or declare before she enrolled about headcoverings?

We're not getting any info on that either way.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2012, 10:07:54 PM »

No, the females to not have any head coverings. It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.
If it's that simple, what is the point of discussing anything. eg.: School X doesn't allow crosses. It doesn't matter if you think they should, they don't.

I happen to think if a person in an Orthodox school wants to wear crosses or religious clothes matching Orthodox traditions, like modest dresses or veils for girls, they should be allowed to.

Regards.

And I agree with you, unless that Orthodox person willfully attends a private institution which does not allow that sort of thing.  It’s up to that person to ensure they do not find themself in that situation.  Their option is attend an institution which does allow that sort of thing.  If they willingly attend one which does not, they have no room to grip.  If a parent sends their child to an institution like that, they also have no room to grip. 

Prior to becoming Orthodox, my wife and I discussed sending out children to a Catholic school.  School rules were part of that discussion.  We couldn’t afford the tuition so we sent them to a Charter school.  Guess what, they also make the rules and if you don’t like it, your option is to send your child to a different school, period.  School uniforms were a requirement and even if it was not written in the handbook, they could change the rules, which they did several times.  Like is hard sometimes.  Deal with it.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2012, 10:08:46 PM »

Congratulations on side tracking the real issue here!  Bottom line, it's up to the school.  
So the school has absolute power.

Tell me, would you feel the same if they banned her for her race or ethnicity?
Yes, it's a private school.  They make the rules.

They didn't, but for clarification, do you mean in the same way some schools are male or female only or how some are restricted to a certain race?  Like those schools?  Or do you mean like scholarships which are reserved for specific ethnical groups?  Something like those?
I believe they would never stand for racial intolerance as much as religious, that's all.

No one said it was either of these. You are making an assumption.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2012, 10:14:38 PM »

Has anyone, other than myself, gone to this schools webpage to see if they even utilize school uniforms and if so, what do they look like?  There is a lot of speculation and guessing going on when a quick visit to the school page will answer this simply question.  But, I will do it for you.

Yes, they have uniforms. 
Yes, with the exception of what appears to be kindergarten, they all look the same.
No, the females to not have any head coverings.  It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.

Does it stipulate they can't?

you're right, it doesn't matter one way or another what we think.


Point is, what did the school think or declare before she enrolled about headcoverings?

We're not getting any info on that either way.

No, the point is the school makes its own rules. 

If they require females to wear head coverings, it’s their choice, but they said no.  There appears to be a standard uniform code and anything outside that code is not accepted. 

If I am in charge of an institution and I say, “You will wear this and this,” but I do not exclude what you can wear, you think it acceptable.  However, the truth is, when I say, “You will wear this and this,” that is all you are going to wear.  If you don’t have permission, the answer is no.  How long of a dress code do you want?  If you mention all the things you can’t wear rather than was you are allowed to wear, the book would be about 3 tons.  Let’s be rational about this whole thing.
Logged
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,217



WWW
« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2012, 01:27:42 AM »

No, the females to not have any head coverings. It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.
If it's that simple, what is the point of discussing anything. eg.: School X doesn't allow crosses. It doesn't matter if you think they should, they don't.

I happen to think if a person in an Orthodox school wants to wear crosses or religious clothes matching Orthodox traditions, like modest dresses or veils for girls, they should be allowed to.

Regards.

And I agree with you, unless that Orthodox person willfully attends a private institution which does not allow that sort of thing.  It’s up to that person to ensure they do not find themself in that situation.  Their option is attend an institution which does allow that sort of thing.  If they willingly attend one which does not, they have no room to grip.  If a parent sends their child to an institution like that, they also have no room to grip.  

Prior to becoming Orthodox, my wife and I discussed sending out children to a Catholic school.  School rules were part of that discussion.  We couldn’t afford the tuition so we sent them to a Charter school.  Guess what, they also make the rules and if you don’t like it, your option is to send your child to a different school, period.  School uniforms were a requirement and even if it was not written in the handbook, they could change the rules, which they did several times.  Like is hard sometimes.  Deal with it.
Wasn't what I said OK, brother?

To recap: I think the school should allow students to wear clothes that match traditional Orthodox dress, like girls wearing crosses, headcoverings, and modest dresses if the girls want to. My reasoning is that it makes sense for an Orthodox school to accommodate good Orthodox practices where possible.

I do not have children that go to the school, but I have an opinion about their policy.  Grin

Be Happy. It's almost Old Calendar Christmas, and you can celebrate it at an Old Calendar Church in your region, even if you disagree with it.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:31:48 AM by rakovsky » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2012, 04:45:45 AM »

No, the females to not have any head coverings. It doesn’t matter if you think they should, they don’t.
If it's that simple, what is the point of discussing anything. eg.: School X doesn't allow crosses. It doesn't matter if you think they should, they don't.

I happen to think if a person in an Orthodox school wants to wear crosses or religious clothes matching Orthodox traditions, like modest dresses or veils for girls, they should be allowed to.

Regards.

And I agree with you, unless that Orthodox person willfully attends a private institution which does not allow that sort of thing.  It’s up to that person to ensure they do not find themself in that situation.  Their option is attend an institution which does allow that sort of thing.  If they willingly attend one which does not, they have no room to grip.  If a parent sends their child to an institution like that, they also have no room to grip.  

Prior to becoming Orthodox, my wife and I discussed sending out children to a Catholic school.  School rules were part of that discussion.  We couldn’t afford the tuition so we sent them to a Charter school.  Guess what, they also make the rules and if you don’t like it, your option is to send your child to a different school, period.  School uniforms were a requirement and even if it was not written in the handbook, they could change the rules, which they did several times.  Like is hard sometimes.  Deal with it.
Wasn't what I said OK, brother?

To recap: I think the school should allow students to wear clothes that match traditional Orthodox dress, like girls wearing crosses, headcoverings, and modest dresses if the girls want to. My reasoning is that it makes sense for an Orthodox school to accommodate good Orthodox practices where possible.

I do not have children that go to the school, but I have an opinion about their policy.  Grin

Be Happy. It's almost Old Calendar Christmas, and you can celebrate it at an Old Calendar Church in your region, even if you disagree with it.

Of course what you said was ok.  I may even be inclined to agree with you, but the choice isn’t ours to make.  That is all I wanted to impress upon you.  Personally, I like head coverings.  I think hijabs for the average person is a little extreme, but a nice head covering is fine.

You have yourself a wonderful Christmas.  I have no issue with the Old Calendar.   Grin
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,553


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #177 on: December 30, 2012, 06:58:15 AM »

Quote
like girls wearing crosses,

I imagine most would, as long as they are kept underneath their clothing. Long chains need to be tucked away for reasons of safety and practicality.

Quote
headcoverings,

Irrelevant. Orthodox girls of school age are minors. The tradition of female head covering only applies to adult women, and, in some Orthodox countries/regions, only to married women.

Quote
and modest dresses

Again, irrelevant. Show me a standard, school-approved girls' school uniform which is anything other than modest. No school I know of, religious or otherwise, where a uniform is required, would tolerate immodesty in a uniform.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 06:59:00 AM by LBK » Logged
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,217



WWW
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2012, 02:59:39 PM »

Of course what you said was ok.  I may even be inclined to agree with you, but the choice isn’t ours to make.  That is all I wanted to impress upon you.  Personally, I like head coverings.  I think hijabs for the average person is a little extreme, but a nice head covering is fine.

You have yourself a wonderful Christmas.  I have no issue with the Old Calendar.   Grin
Thanks.

I was the guy in Catholic school who the teachers kept telling to tuck his shirt in. I just think if someone wants to conform more strictly than me, I should give them a pass. Maybe then they will give me one too when I fail to live up to it. Smiley
Logged
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,217



WWW
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2012, 03:12:24 PM »

Quote
headcoverings,

Irrelevant. Orthodox girls of school age are minors. The tradition of female head covering only applies to adult women, and, in some Orthodox countries/regions, only to married women.
Well, I trust your opinion, but it might not always be true:
Quote
We find the basis for covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years.
http://www.stjohnaz.org/index.cfm/resources/attending-divine-services/on-the-covering-of-heads
And besides that, in early Christian times, the age of adulthood was about 13, so in following the ancient custom, a girl in her teens could be of marrying age and wish to wear a covering.

Quote
Quote
and modest dresses
Again, irrelevant. Show me a standard, school-approved girls' school uniform which is anything other than modest. No school I know of, religious or otherwise, where a uniform is required, would tolerate immodesty in a uniform.
Japanese schoolgirl uniforms


But what I originally had in mind is that some Orthodox customs or monastery rules ask for the dresses to be below the knees for modesty. Some private school uniforms do not follow that.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.144 seconds with 72 queries.