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Author Topic: Why does the Spirit proceed from the Father?  (Read 774 times) Average Rating: 0
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Android_Rewster
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« on: December 20, 2012, 09:25:58 PM »

 I'm probably going to sound like a noob right here, but I don't understand. :p

 Isn't there that whole scripture about how Jesus says he sent forth the spirit as a helper or something?
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 09:41:52 PM »

I'm probably going to sound like a noob right here, but I don't understand. :p

 Isn't there that whole scripture about how Jesus says he sent forth the spirit as a helper or something?
No, He says He proceeds from the Father and the Father will send Him in the Son's name (i.e. through the Son). John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 09:41:55 PM »

I'm probably going to sound like a noob right here, but I don't understand. :p

 Isn't there that whole scripture about how Jesus says he sent forth the spirit as a helper or something?

http://bible.cc/john/15-26.htm
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Android_Rewster
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 10:09:28 PM »

 Ah. Okay, thanks for clearing up my confusion. :p
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 04:16:13 AM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2012, 04:17:59 AM »

I'm probably going to sound like a noob right here, but I don't understand. :p

 Isn't there that whole scripture about how Jesus says he sent forth the spirit as a helper or something?
No, He says He proceeds from the Father and the Father will send Him in the Son's name (i.e. through the Son). John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7

But the Son sends the Spirit as well (John 15:26). But it probably refers to the energetic sending rather than the hypostatic procession.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:18:35 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2012, 05:02:41 AM »

I'm probably going to sound like a noob right here, but I don't understand. :p

 Isn't there that whole scripture about how Jesus says he sent forth the spirit as a helper or something?
No, He says He proceeds from the Father and the Father will send Him in the Son's name (i.e. through the Son). John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7

But the Son sends the Spirit as well (John 15:26). But it probably refers to the energetic sending rather than the hypostatic procession.

Yes, all actions start from The Father, get accomplished by The Son, and are perfected by The Holy Spirit. Therefore, we can infer that The Spirit perfects the work of The Son, it is The Spirit of The Son by operation, not by procession. But the Son is the Logos of The Father, therefore, ultimately The Spirit is The Spirit of The Logos of The Father. All points back to The Father by operation, as well as by source.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 05:04:55 AM by IoanC » Logged

Wyatt
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 04:28:19 PM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 04:29:52 PM »

I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God
Of who, now?
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 04:49:57 PM »

We profess that Christ "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit", yet we would not say that He was "begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit before all ages." Christ coming to earth is the result of the cooperation of the entire Trinity, yet His eternal origin is found solely in the Father. Likewise, the coming of the Holy Spirit is the result of the cooperation of the entire Trinity, yet His eternal origin is found solely in the Father.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 02:29:50 AM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.

No, the question was why aren't the Three Persons of The Trinity three separate gods. Why do they act as one God? Because there is only One Father, who is the will and source of the other Two Persons, The Father being unbegotten.
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 05:42:33 AM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.

It is the good old Eastern misconception that the West believes that the Son is another principle or aitia of the Holy Spirit, while this isn't the case at all.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 05:44:11 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 07:15:08 PM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.

It is the good old Eastern misconception that the West believes that the Son is another principle or aitia of the Holy Spirit, while this isn't the case at all.

Which recension of Roman Catholic dogma, from which era, refutes this?
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 07:32:14 PM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.

It is the good old Eastern misconception that the West believes that the Son is another principle or aitia of the Holy Spirit, while this isn't the case at all.

Which recension of Roman Catholic dogma, from which era, refutes this?
How about the Council of Florence:

"The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has His nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom He is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9277
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:33:00 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »

If the Council of Florence still expresses Roman Catholic dogma, it is highly problematic according to the Orthodox understanding.
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 07:51:25 PM »

If the Council of Florence still expresses Roman Catholic dogma, it is highly problematic according to the Orthodox understanding.
How so?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 08:54:36 PM »

Because The Father is the only source of The Holy Trinity, and the basis of the unity of The Trinity. If there was more than one source, there would be more than one God, which does not even make sense logically.
I've heard this argument before, but it has never made sense to me. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternal Persons of the one God, how would the procession of the Spirit by the Father and the Son equate to their being more than one God? The Father and the Son are not two different gods, they are the one true God.

It is the good old Eastern misconception that the West believes that the Son is another principle or aitia of the Holy Spirit, while this isn't the case at all.
The West has quite muddled what it believes. It is not our task to straighten out their mess, but to witness to the clear thinking of the Apostles and Fathers.

This is quite heretical:
Quote
The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end
http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/faith/ECUM12.HTM#1
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2012, 07:55:53 AM »

Why isn't this in the Orthodox-Catholic forum instead?

This is quite heretical:
Quote
The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end


How so?
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2012, 10:57:00 AM »

Why isn't this in the Orthodox-Catholic forum instead?
Because I haven't moved it there. If you think it belongs there instead of here, please send me a PM or a "Report to Moderator" to ask that this thread be moved. Thank you.

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