Author Topic: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...  (Read 1063 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LittleFlower

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« on: December 20, 2012, 03:49:24 PM »
Hello,

I am not Orthodox (I'm Eastern Catholic) but I'm just wondering about the Orthodox perspective on this.

I read that in the Catholic Church, it was not allowed for Catholics to communicate (I don't mean sharing Communion, but communicating as in having conversations, eating together, etc) with heretics/schismatics/etc though I seem to remember it being alright to do this to help in their salvation (so talking to someone about returning to the Church, for example). There was an excommunication for this. Eventually it got so complicated that the Pope changed the canon on this, and according to Catholic Encyclopedia there is no longer an excommunication on this, although it's always been and still is a sin to aid someone in heresy or to give them support in heresy. I'm a little confused about the history of this so hopefully I got this right.

Well I was wondering, if anything similar exists in the Orthodox church. Since I'm Catholic obviously I believe in Catholicism (but I'm not here to argue that) - but according to the Orthodox perspective, - let's say someone was Orthodox and then joined another church, would it be a sin for their Orthodox friends to continue to meet with them, as friends? Is this considered a sin and is there any canons about it?

I would greatly appreciate any information, especially from a priest or deacon.

Again I'm not here to argue this or any other point, just looking for info :)

thanks!

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 05:25:56 PM »
It's not a sin to hold a conversation with a heretic. If there were no communication, how would they be helped to know the truth? Those who are not well established in faith should probably avoid conversing about it with heretics, lest they become confused. That's about it. Mere communicating is not automatically aiding a heresy.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 05:29:48 PM »
This would make a good Hyperdox Herman -


Friends non-Orthodox on facebook to spread the Gospel

Blocks their posts so they can read his but he can't read theirs.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Eastern Mind

  • Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 713
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 05:35:26 PM »
This would make a good Hyperdox Herman -


Friends non-Orthodox on facebook to spread the Gospel

Blocks their posts so they can read his but he can't read theirs.

 :laugh: I thought of Hyperdox Herman too!  :P
"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"

Offline choy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,316
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »
Hello,

I am not Orthodox (I'm Eastern Catholic) but I'm just wondering about the Orthodox perspective on this.

I read that in the Catholic Church, it was not allowed for Catholics to communicate (I don't mean sharing Communion, but communicating as in having conversations, eating together, etc) with heretics/schismatics/etc though I seem to remember it being alright to do this to help in their salvation (so talking to someone about returning to the Church, for example). There was an excommunication for this. Eventually it got so complicated that the Pope changed the canon on this, and according to Catholic Encyclopedia there is no longer an excommunication on this, although it's always been and still is a sin to aid someone in heresy or to give them support in heresy. I'm a little confused about the history of this so hopefully I got this right.

Well I was wondering, if anything similar exists in the Orthodox church. Since I'm Catholic obviously I believe in Catholicism (but I'm not here to argue that) - but according to the Orthodox perspective, - let's say someone was Orthodox and then joined another church, would it be a sin for their Orthodox friends to continue to meet with them, as friends? Is this considered a sin and is there any canons about it?

I would greatly appreciate any information, especially from a priest or deacon.

Again I'm not here to argue this or any other point, just looking for info :)

thanks!

Sorry, where did you get that?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 05:57:20 PM by choy »

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,673
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 06:12:08 PM »
It's not a sin to hold a conversation with a heretic. If there were no communication, how would they be helped to know the truth? Those who are not well established in faith should probably avoid conversing about it with heretics, lest they become confused. That's about it. Mere communicating is not automatically aiding a heresy.

Exactly. I am not aware that Orthodox practice shunning, as the Amish do, for instance.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,564
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 06:30:05 PM »
I've had Orthodox friends for 30 years. I sure hope all of that hasn't been heresy.  :P ;)
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline LittleFlower

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 06:36:57 PM »
Thanks for the replies, well for those interested I got this from St Thomas Aquinas and the "heresy" article in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The canon law changed over time because this got so complicated but apparently it was the case earlier in Church history so I'm wondering about the Eastern perspective.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:39:52 PM by LittleFlower »

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 06:37:47 PM »
There is a difference between not communicating with a person who happens to be non-Orthodox, and an Orthodox person who has apostatised from the Church. While I know very few who would actually "shun" such a person, this is something taught quite clearly in Scripture (Titus 3:10) and expressed by many of the Fathers. The reason is to make the person in question realise the severity and gravity of their decision and bring about their repentance and return to the Church. I think such action nowadays is likely to have quite the opposite effect, and so its applicability now would have to be very carefully considered - the letter killeth and all that.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:38:46 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline LittleFlower

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 06:42:52 PM »
There is a difference between not communicating with a person who happens to be non-Orthodox, and an Orthodox person who has apostatised from the Church. While I know very few who would actually "shun" such a person, this is something taught quite clearly in Scripture (Titus 3:10) and expressed by many of the Fathers. The reason is to make the person in question realise the severity and gravity of their decision and bring about their repentance and return to the Church. I think such action nowadays is likely to have quite the opposite effect, and so its applicability now would have to be very carefully considered - the letter killeth and all that.

This is what I am talking about :) not just talking to non Orthodox, but talking to those who were Orthodox, and then joined another faith or left. I was saying how in the Catholic Church, there were strict canons on this before, but then it got complicated so now it's just - not aiding them in heresy, or supporting it. (from what I understand at least, maybe I'm wrong?). Even though I'm Catholic, and I believe in Catholicism, I'm wondering about the Orthodox perspective, on talking to people who left the EOC. Is that allowed? Can Orthodox have dinner with them, etc? meet up? or is there a canonical penalty? what if they don't encourage anything, just meet as friends?

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,762
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2012, 02:31:14 AM »
I'm not aware of anyone being forbidden to be friends, or hang out under any circumstance, with apostates. I can think of examples to the contrary however, with recurring apostates that I know of.

That said, the Orthodox approach to the canons is seemingly quite different from the Catholic approach.

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,673
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 12:13:32 PM »
I'm not aware of anyone being forbidden to be friends, or hang out under any circumstance, with apostates. I can think of examples to the contrary however, with recurring apostates that I know of.

That said, the Orthodox approach to the canons is seemingly quite different from the Catholic approach.

"And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."
Capt. Hector Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean
 ;)
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline domNoah

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
    • Alleluia AudioBooks
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 09:50:57 PM »
Hello,

I am not Orthodox (I'm Eastern Catholic) but I'm just wondering about the Orthodox perspective on this.

I read that in the Catholic Church, it was not allowed for Catholics to communicate (I don't mean sharing Communion, but communicating as in having conversations, eating together, etc) with heretics/schismatics/etc though I seem to remember it being alright to do this to help in their salvation (so talking to someone about returning to the Church, for example). There was an excommunication for this. Eventually it got so complicated that the Pope changed the canon on this, and according to Catholic Encyclopedia there is no longer an excommunication on this, although it's always been and still is a sin to aid someone in heresy or to give them support in heresy. I'm a little confused about the history of this so hopefully I got this right.

Well I was wondering, if anything similar exists in the Orthodox church. Since I'm Catholic obviously I believe in Catholicism (but I'm not here to argue that) - but according to the Orthodox perspective, - let's say someone was Orthodox and then joined another church, would it be a sin for their Orthodox friends to continue to meet with them, as friends? Is this considered a sin and is there any canons about it?

I would greatly appreciate any information, especially from a priest or deacon.

Again I'm not here to argue this or any other point, just looking for info :)

thanks!

If you read that about the Catholic Church it is not true, or it severly exaggerated certain older disciplines.  There was a form of solemn public excommunication where none of the Faithful barring the persons spouse could speak to the person, but that was very seldom used and not thrown around lightly.
The true story of the sword in the stone
http://tinyurl.com/l98rcxp

Ancient Eucharistic Miracles (East and West)
http://tinyurl.com/mnpg8og

St Anthony the Great War on demons
http://tinyurl.com/k7zcycx

http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 11:42:34 PM »
There is a difference between not communicating with a person who happens to be non-Orthodox, and an Orthodox person who has apostatised from the Church.

But not a difference that all Orthodox appreciate, in my experience. A lot of Orthodox seem to lump guys like me together with ex-Orthodox.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: complicated question about communicating with non-Orthodox...
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 12:58:15 PM »
Thanks for the replies, well for those interested I got this from St Thomas Aquinas and the "heresy" article in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let's hope we don't get into a discussion about Aquinas' thinking regarding heretics.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)