OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 03:11:40 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Liturgical Texts and the Baptism of St. Constantine  (Read 310 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
greek_yogurt
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 21



« on: December 19, 2012, 08:57:16 PM »

I have been in correspondence with an Orthodox priest and we began discussing the baptism of St Constantine. He said that the liturgical texts for the feast day of Sts Constantine and Helen state that St Constantine was baptized by Pope Sylvester. I was initially skeptical because of the Donation of Constantine.

Now the majority of scholars say that St Constantine was baptized on his deathbed. If this is true, then what are we to make of these liturgical texts? I listened to a talk given by an Orthodox priest which said if something is in our Liturgy, then we have to accept it. How do we reconcile this contradiction of scholarly evidence that shows that St Constantine was baptized on his deathbed and the texts that sate the opposite? By the way, the priest did not send me the texts, so maybe someone can help me here as well. Are liturgical texts in effect infallible?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 09:03:42 PM »

I have been in correspondence with an Orthodox priest and we began discussing the baptism of St Constantine. He said that the liturgical texts for the feast day of Sts Constantine and Helen state that St Constantine was baptized by Pope Sylvester. I was initially skeptical because of the Donation of Constantine.

Now the majority of scholars say that St Constantine was baptized on his deathbed. If this is true, then what are we to make of these liturgical texts? I listened to a talk given by an Orthodox priest which said if something is in our Liturgy, then we have to accept it. How do we reconcile this contradiction of scholarly evidence that shows that St Constantine was baptized on his deathbed and the texts that sate the opposite? By the way, the priest did not send me the texts, so maybe someone can help me here as well. Are liturgical texts in effect infallible?
No, they are not, and yes, if they say that, here they are incorrect.  The baptism of St. Constantine by St. Abp. (Rome had not yet taken the title "Pope") Sylvester is a later legend, the Vita Sylvestri, perhaps of Roman origin, made up by embarrassment that Abp. St. Sylvester was not a giant in an age of giants in the Church.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 09:10:35 PM »

As far as it has been explained to me (and my fallible comprehension) liturgical service IS teaching, but as we see in the scriptures and the liturgy, some things are allegorical, romantic and even historically inaccurate. But this does not negate truth and lesson making.

On the subject of Emperor Constantine, I have heard that he was baptized near death (at the end of his life). Could this be taken as "on his deathbed"?

I can not recall the exact date of his feast day so I'll look it up and get on my menalogion to read the Synaxis and Troparion/Kontakions to see what they say. I'd be willing to bet that we will find it not being stated as to the exact timing of his baptism. This would not be a lie, just something left out.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:14:12 PM by simplygermain » Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 09:18:12 PM »

Menologion says "...at the end of his life, having prepared his whole life for it."
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 09:21:03 PM »

Menologion says "...at the end of his life, having prepared his whole life for it."

Further explanation given to me is that him being the emperor of Byzantine Rome, was obliged to lead as a soldier and therefore pay homage to Mythra. When he no longer had to do this, he could finally become a baptized Christian.
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.044 seconds with 31 queries.