|
choy
|
 |
« on: December 17, 2012, 01:53:03 AM » |
|
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 AM » |
|
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
OrthoNoob
Sr. Member
 Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox (Catechumen)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 729
|
|
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 01:59:12 AM » |
|
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.
This. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 04:28:07 AM » |
|
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.
Thanks. My thoughts are the same. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
arimethea
Grand Protector of the Orthodox Lands of the Great Lakes and Ohio River Valley
Moderator
Archon
Offline
Posts: 2,693
Does anyone really care what you think?
|
|
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:49 AM » |
|
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?
It is acts like this that make one understand why inquisitions are needed. I would ban such a person from ever stepping near a chanter stand again. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Joseph
|
|
|
|
katherineofdixie
|
|
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 11:35:13 AM » |
|
Take pity on them and pray for them, for they are steeped in ignorance.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."
St. John Chrysostom
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 11:41:37 AM » |
|
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Ἔπαγε, ἔπαγε, μὴ γὰρ ἴδοι με σιωπῶντα ἥλιος."-Polemon of LaodiceaAll ye self-proclaimed intellectuals, come and read Lucian in the Book Club!
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 PM » |
|
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?
No, but the person does play an important role in the parish. But lay. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 02:19:41 PM » |
|
Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Ἔπαγε, ἔπαγε, μὴ γὰρ ἴδοι με σιωπῶντα ἥλιος."-Polemon of LaodiceaAll ye self-proclaimed intellectuals, come and read Lucian in the Book Club!
|
|
|
|
Punch
|
|
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 03:12:29 PM » |
|
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?
No, but the person does play an important role in the parish. But lay. If he be clergy, let him be defrocked. If he be a layman, then let him be excommunicated. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
God did not create man equal. Samuel Colt made man equal. Blessed be the Peacemaker.
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 03:19:35 PM » |
|
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANAXIOS thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 03:26:11 PM » |
|
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.
Fixed it for ya. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Ἔπαγε, ἔπαγε, μὴ γὰρ ἴδοι με σιωπῶντα ἥλιος."-Polemon of LaodiceaAll ye self-proclaimed intellectuals, come and read Lucian in the Book Club!
|
|
|
|
vamrat
|
|
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 03:28:10 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 04:31:23 PM » |
|
Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?
I am pretty sure it is intentional. The first instance was Lent and I was sitting right in front of the person and beside the Bishop (Service at the Tomb, so we are not at the altar and I was serving) when the person read the reading and there was a part that said "men" only (this was about the dried bones if I remember correctly) and the person said "men" paused for half-a-second, and then added on-the-fly, "and women". Literally in my mind I said, "WTF?!" Okay, fine, I let that slide. I know that there are places in the Liturgy today that we use "brothers and sisters" instead of "brethren" so I said it is not a big deal. But this Sunday I had sore throat so I wasn't able to give the usual congregation the pleasure of listening to my singing voice, so I stood quietly letting others do the singing. That is when I noticed. At the First Antiphon, "Shout to the Lord all the earth, sing now to His Name, give glory to His praise.." Then I heard the person say rather clearly, "sing now to God's Name, give glory to God's praise." Then again at the Anaphora, "Holy, Holy, Holy... blessed is He who comes..." becomes, "blessed is the One..." Then again before Communion, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord, God the Lord has appeared to us." Again it becomes, "blessed is the One." And we're a Latinized parish, we have pews with kneelers, and we have the service books in every pew. Everyone sings with the books open. I know I'm planning to leave soon for Orthodoxy but I don't want to leave without bringing this up, for their own good. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 04:37:27 PM » |
|
I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest. And kneelers?  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 04:39:00 PM by Cyrillic »
|
Logged
|
"Ἔπαγε, ἔπαγε, μὴ γὰρ ἴδοι με σιωπῶντα ἥλιος."-Polemon of LaodiceaAll ye self-proclaimed intellectuals, come and read Lucian in the Book Club!
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 04:44:05 PM » |
|
I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest. Too late  And kneelers? It is what it is |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 04:48:02 PM » |
|
Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Ἔπαγε, ἔπαγε, μὴ γὰρ ἴδοι με σιωπῶντα ἥλιος."-Polemon of LaodiceaAll ye self-proclaimed intellectuals, come and read Lucian in the Book Club!
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 04:55:44 PM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Luckster
Double Dipper
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 134
|
|
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:03 PM » |
|
I cringe every time I hear my priest say, "humankind". But, we all have our faults. The poor man is, in private, a very traditional priest. But, having grown up in San Francisco of the Midwest and spending nearly a decade in Boston, has certainly changed him to be more...sensitive.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
sheenj
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 991
St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...
|
|
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 05:26:03 PM » |
|
Everyone sings with the books open.
How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:06 PM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish. I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:59 PM » |
|
Everyone sings with the books open.
How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox? Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 05:41:48 PM » |
|
Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well No, but you know they were there in the past because where the stations of the cross would have been have been replaced by Byzantine icons. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 05:42:42 PM » |
|
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.
Fixed it for ya. That'll work, too. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 07:20:34 PM » |
|
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?
Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 07:23:32 PM » |
|
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?
Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent. I've raise the issue to our priest, I'll see what he responds back with. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM » |
|
That dude appears to have other issues as well, which make me doubt the sincerity of his idiotic nomenclatural convictions. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
Nephi
Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,265
Ecumenism Lite
|
|
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 09:02:55 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:10 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? Pew books=books in pews, in general--hymnals, Bibles, liturgical books misplaced copies of "Chicken Soup for the Catholic Soul." Pews=benches, usually with backs and optionally with cushions upon which people sit during the sitting parts of liturgical services. They originated in Ancient Orthodox Egypt as reed mats, and evolved into benches in Medieval Orthodox English monasteries, IIRC. Pew books are normally kept in racks on the backs of pews, or are stacked at the ends of pews, but hipster pews have slots underneath, which is very convenient for not banging one's knees on the back-racks. None of this should, of course, be confused with the Pew Research Center, which is something else entirely. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:29 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? We have pews, and there are books in the pews.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:25:09 PM by choy »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Tallitot
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,191
|
|
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 09:25:02 PM » |
|
go bell, book and candle on'em.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If people cry at weddings...why don't they laugh at funerals?
|
|
|
|
Melodist
|
|
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 09:29:36 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish. I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 09:35:45 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish. I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants. Well, the Orthodox parish I am moving to does not have pews. Well, there are the pews around the sides for those that need to sit or can't stand at all, but not the Western-style rows of pews throughout the nave. And they don't have books there. I know there are some copies of the text for the Liturgy by the door on a table. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nephi
Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,265
Ecumenism Lite
|
|
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 09:37:34 PM » |
|
We have pews, and there are books in the pews. I guess I don't see why it's a problem for there to be books in the pews, especially if the problem is the pews themselves. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:38:52 PM by Nephi »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nephi
Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,265
Ecumenism Lite
|
|
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 09:41:55 PM » |
|
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews. And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish. I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants. This is the case for the two Orthodox churches nearby. The nearby monastery doesn't have pews, but it has chairs in the back and then in the middle these chair-like cubicle things that can also be stood in. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 09:45:17 PM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish. I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year. I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this...  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 09:50:50 PM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers Thank you for saying that, I was just going to add that I went to a Greek Orthodox church for St. Nicholas Day and they had kneelers AND an organ. And they knelt for the consecration. So there.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
|
choy
|
|
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 10:07:50 PM » |
|
Okay, I am in touch now with our priest so I will refrain from commenting about it. With that I will leave this thread.
Prayers for everyone is much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 10:17:56 PM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish. I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year. I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this... Yes, you were about to explain how the Orthodox Church is teetering on the heretical cliff, about to fall off into the abyss. Next, we'll be having jumbotrons and liturgical dancers. Leotards in HD, oh my! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
|
Kerdy
|
|
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 AM » |
|
I don't do much "inclusive" language. I prefer people speak the truth straight out.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
|
|
|
Ruprecht
Formerly Subdeacon Bob.C
Jr. Member
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Church of N.A.; New England Diocese
Posts: 42
|
|
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 02:09:39 AM » |
|
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers Well, in the four Antiochian and three Greek Orthodox parishes I have visited or been a member of, they have all had pews but no kneelers. You can always identify the newest ex-Catholic converts: they are thee ones that say "Ouch!!" when they go to kneel down and go an extra 3 to 4 inches to the floor rather than to a spongy kneeler! I remember the first time hitting the floor at my first Greek parish during the procession of icons at the day of Orthodoxy. Wow, did that hurt, knee caps on marble! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
