Author Topic: What would you do? Inclusive language  (Read 2218 times)

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Offline choy

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What would you do? Inclusive language
« on: December 17, 2012, 01:53:03 AM »
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

Offline LBK

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 AM »
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 01:59:12 AM »
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.

This.
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 04:28:07 AM »
If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.

Thanks.  My thoughts are the same.

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:49 AM »
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

It is acts like this that make one understand why inquisitions are needed. I would ban such a person from ever stepping near a chanter stand again.
Joseph

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 11:35:13 AM »
Take pity on them and pray for them, for they are steeped in ignorance.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 11:41:37 AM »
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 PM »
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?

No, but the person does play an important role in the parish.  But lay.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 02:19:41 PM »
Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?
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Offline Punch

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 03:12:29 PM »
Was it a priest or deacon who did this?

No, but the person does play an important role in the parish.  But lay.

If he be clergy, let him be defrocked.  If he be a layman, then let him be excommunicated.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 03:19:35 PM »
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANAXIOS thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 03:26:11 PM »
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.

Fixed it for ya.
"We are the hollow men
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Offline vamrat

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 03:28:10 PM »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 04:31:23 PM »
Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?

I am pretty sure it is intentional.  The first instance was Lent and I was sitting right in front of the person and beside the Bishop (Service at the Tomb, so we are not at the altar and I was serving) when the person read the reading and there was a part that said "men" only (this was about the dried bones if I remember correctly) and the person said "men" paused for half-a-second, and then added on-the-fly, "and women".  Literally in my mind I said, "WTF?!"

Okay, fine, I let that slide.  I know that there are places in the Liturgy today that we use "brothers and sisters" instead of "brethren" so I said it is not a big deal.  But this Sunday I had sore throat so I wasn't able to give the usual congregation the pleasure of listening to my singing voice, so I stood quietly letting others do the singing.  That is when I noticed.  At the First Antiphon, "Shout to the Lord all the earth, sing now to His Name, give glory to His praise.."  Then I heard the person say rather clearly, "sing now to God's Name, give glory to God's praise."  Then again at the Anaphora, "Holy, Holy, Holy... blessed is He who comes..." becomes, "blessed is the One..."  Then again before Communion, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord, God the Lord has appeared to us."  Again it becomes, "blessed is the One."

And we're a Latinized parish, we have pews with kneelers, and we have the service books in every pew.  Everyone sings with the books open.

I know I'm planning to leave soon for Orthodoxy but I don't want to leave without bringing this up, for their own good.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 04:37:27 PM »
I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest.

And kneelers? :o
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 04:39:00 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 04:44:05 PM »
I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest.

Too late :P

And kneelers? :o

It is what it is :P

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »
Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well  :D
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 04:55:44 PM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

Offline Luckster

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:03 PM »
I cringe every time I hear my priest say, "humankind". But, we all have our faults. The poor man is, in private, a very traditional priest. But, having grown up in San Francisco of the Midwest and spending nearly a decade in Boston, has certainly changed him to be more...sensitive.

Offline sheenj

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 05:26:03 PM »

Everyone sings with the books open.

How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox?

Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:06 PM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.

Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:59 PM »

Everyone sings with the books open.

How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox?

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 05:41:48 PM »
Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well  :D

No, but you know they were there in the past because where the stations of the cross would have been have been replaced by Byzantine icons.

Offline Schultz

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 05:42:42 PM »
I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.

Fixed it for ya.

That'll work, too.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 07:20:34 PM »
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent.
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 07:23:32 PM »
What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent.

I've raise the issue to our priest, I'll see what he responds back with.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM »


That dude appears to have other issues as well, which make me doubt the sincerity of his idiotic nomenclatural convictions.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 09:02:55 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? ???

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:10 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? ???

Pew books=books in pews, in general--hymnals, Bibles, liturgical books misplaced copies of "Chicken Soup for the Catholic Soul."

Pews=benches, usually with backs and optionally with cushions upon which people sit during the sitting parts of liturgical services. They originated in Ancient Orthodox Egypt as reed mats, and evolved into benches in Medieval Orthodox English monasteries, IIRC. Pew books are normally kept in racks on the backs of pews, or are stacked at the ends of pews, but hipster pews have slots underneath, which is very convenient for not banging one's knees on the back-racks.

None of this should, of course, be confused with the Pew Research Center, which is something else entirely.
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:29 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? ???

We have pews, and there are books in the pews.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:25:09 PM by choy »

Offline Tallitot

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 09:25:02 PM »
go bell, book and candle on'em.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 09:29:36 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 09:35:45 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.

Well, the Orthodox parish I am moving to does not have pews.  Well, there are the pews around the sides for those that need to sit or can't stand at all, but not the Western-style rows of pews throughout the nave.  And they don't have books there.  I know there are some copies of the text for the Liturgy by the door on a table.

Offline Nephi

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 09:37:34 PM »
We have pews, and there are books in the pews.



I guess I don't see why it's a problem for there to be books in the pews, especially if the problem is the pews themselves.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:38:52 PM by Nephi »

Offline Nephi

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 09:41:55 PM »
Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.

This is the case for the two Orthodox churches nearby. The nearby monastery doesn't have pews, but it has chairs in the back and then in the middle these chair-like cubicle things that can also be stood in.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 09:45:17 PM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.

I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this...  :police:

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 09:50:50 PM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

Thank you for saying that, I was just going to add that I went to a Greek Orthodox church for St. Nicholas Day and they had kneelers AND an organ.  And they knelt for the consecration. So there.  8)
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Offline choy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 10:07:50 PM »
Okay, I am in touch now with our priest so I will refrain from commenting about it.  With that I will leave this thread.

Prayers for everyone is much appreciated.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 10:17:56 PM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.

I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this...  :police:

Yes, you were about to explain how the Orthodox Church is teetering on the heretical cliff, about to fall off into the abyss. Next, we'll be having jumbotrons and liturgical dancers. Leotards in HD, oh my!
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 AM »
I don't do much "inclusive" language.  I prefer people speak the truth straight out.

Offline Ruprecht

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Re: What would you do? Inclusive language
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 02:09:39 AM »
I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  :angel:

Well, in the four Antiochian and three Greek Orthodox parishes I have visited or been a member of, they have all had pews but no kneelers.  You can always identify the newest ex-Catholic converts: they are thee ones that say "Ouch!!" when they go to kneel down and go an extra 3 to 4 inches to the floor rather than to a spongy kneeler!  I remember the first time hitting the floor at my first Greek parish during the procession of icons at the day of Orthodoxy.  Wow, did that hurt, knee caps on marble!