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Author Topic: What would you do? Inclusive language  (Read 1412 times) Average Rating: 0
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choy
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« on: December 17, 2012, 01:53:03 AM »

What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 AM »

If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 01:59:12 AM »

If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.

This.
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 04:28:07 AM »

If a priest or deacon was doing this during services, then a word to his bishop would be in order. If a choirmaster/mistress or other person responsible for compiling services did this, then the priest should be informed. If the priest thinks it's not necessary to correct him or her, then his bishop should be informed.

Thanks.  My thoughts are the same.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:49 AM »

What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

It is acts like this that make one understand why inquisitions are needed. I would ban such a person from ever stepping near a chanter stand again.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 11:35:13 AM »

Take pity on them and pray for them, for they are steeped in ignorance.
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 11:41:37 AM »

Was it a priest or deacon who did this?
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:53 PM »

Was it a priest or deacon who did this?

No, but the person does play an important role in the parish.  But lay.
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 02:19:41 PM »

Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 03:12:29 PM »

Was it a priest or deacon who did this?

No, but the person does play an important role in the parish.  But lay.

If he be clergy, let him be defrocked.  If he be a layman, then let him be excommunicated.
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 03:19:35 PM »

I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANAXIOS thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 03:26:11 PM »

I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.

Fixed it for ya.
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 03:28:10 PM »

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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 04:31:23 PM »

Have you asked him (or her) whether it was intentional?

I am pretty sure it is intentional.  The first instance was Lent and I was sitting right in front of the person and beside the Bishop (Service at the Tomb, so we are not at the altar and I was serving) when the person read the reading and there was a part that said "men" only (this was about the dried bones if I remember correctly) and the person said "men" paused for half-a-second, and then added on-the-fly, "and women".  Literally in my mind I said, "WTF?!"

Okay, fine, I let that slide.  I know that there are places in the Liturgy today that we use "brothers and sisters" instead of "brethren" so I said it is not a big deal.  But this Sunday I had sore throat so I wasn't able to give the usual congregation the pleasure of listening to my singing voice, so I stood quietly letting others do the singing.  That is when I noticed.  At the First Antiphon, "Shout to the Lord all the earth, sing now to His Name, give glory to His praise.."  Then I heard the person say rather clearly, "sing now to God's Name, give glory to God's praise."  Then again at the Anaphora, "Holy, Holy, Holy... blessed is He who comes..." becomes, "blessed is the One..."  Then again before Communion, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord, God the Lord has appeared to us."  Again it becomes, "blessed is the One."

And we're a Latinized parish, we have pews with kneelers, and we have the service books in every pew.  Everyone sings with the books open.

I know I'm planning to leave soon for Orthodoxy but I don't want to leave without bringing this up, for their own good.
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 04:37:27 PM »

I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest.

And kneelers? Shocked
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 04:44:05 PM »

I think you can better bring it up with the person it concerns first before telling the priest.

Too late Tongue

And kneelers? Shocked

It is what it is Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »

Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well  Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 04:55:44 PM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:03 PM »

I cringe every time I hear my priest say, "humankind". But, we all have our faults. The poor man is, in private, a very traditional priest. But, having grown up in San Francisco of the Midwest and spending nearly a decade in Boston, has certainly changed him to be more...sensitive.
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 05:26:03 PM »


Everyone sings with the books open.

How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox?
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:06 PM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:59 PM »


Everyone sings with the books open.

How is this proof of Latinization? Is memorizing the Liturgy now required to be Orthodox?

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 05:41:48 PM »

Please don't tell me you have Stations of the Cross as well  Cheesy

No, but you know they were there in the past because where the stations of the cross would have been have been replaced by Byzantine icons.
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 05:42:42 PM »

I would stand in the middle of the nave when this person does this, shout ANATHEMA thrice, and then stomp off in a huff.

Fixed it for ya.

That'll work, too.
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 07:20:34 PM »

What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent.
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 07:23:32 PM »

What would you do if there is someone in your parish who refuses to refer to God as "He", "Him" or "His" as per the Liturgical texts and deliberately translates it to something neutral, like "God" (ie. God's Name, instead of His Name), "You" or "One"?

Explain to them that they're on the fast-track to heresy-ville and should repent.

I've raise the issue to our priest, I'll see what he responds back with.
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM »



That dude appears to have other issues as well, which make me doubt the sincerity of his idiotic nomenclatural convictions.
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 09:02:55 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? Huh
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:10 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? Huh

Pew books=books in pews, in general--hymnals, Bibles, liturgical books misplaced copies of "Chicken Soup for the Catholic Soul."

Pews=benches, usually with backs and optionally with cushions upon which people sit during the sitting parts of liturgical services. They originated in Ancient Orthodox Egypt as reed mats, and evolved into benches in Medieval Orthodox English monasteries, IIRC. Pew books are normally kept in racks on the backs of pews, or are stacked at the ends of pews, but hipster pews have slots underneath, which is very convenient for not banging one's knees on the back-racks.

None of this should, of course, be confused with the Pew Research Center, which is something else entirely.
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:29 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.
What do you mean by pew books in the pews? Huh

We have pews, and there are books in the pews.

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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 09:25:02 PM »

go bell, book and candle on'em.
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 09:29:36 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 09:35:45 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.

Well, the Orthodox parish I am moving to does not have pews.  Well, there are the pews around the sides for those that need to sit or can't stand at all, but not the Western-style rows of pews throughout the nave.  And they don't have books there.  I know there are some copies of the text for the Liturgy by the door on a table.
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 09:37:34 PM »

We have pews, and there are books in the pews.



I guess I don't see why it's a problem for there to be books in the pews, especially if the problem is the pews themselves.
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 09:41:55 PM »

Sorry, what I mean by Latinization is that we have pew books in the pews.  And as mentioned above, I am talking about my UGCC parish.

I've only been in a few Orthodox churches, but every one that I have been in has service books in their pews (yes that means they all have pews). The only churches that I can ever remember visiting that didn't have service books are very non-liturgical Protestants.

This is the case for the two Orthodox churches nearby. The nearby monastery doesn't have pews, but it has chairs in the back and then in the middle these chair-like cubicle things that can also be stood in.
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 09:45:17 PM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.

I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this...  police
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 09:50:50 PM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel

Thank you for saying that, I was just going to add that I went to a Greek Orthodox church for St. Nicholas Day and they had kneelers AND an organ.  And they knelt for the consecration. So there.  Cool
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 10:07:50 PM »

Okay, I am in touch now with our priest so I will refrain from commenting about it.  With that I will leave this thread.

Prayers for everyone is much appreciated.
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 10:17:56 PM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel

I am talking about my Eastern Catholic parish.  I don't go to an Orthodox parish until the new year.

I was just pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't as adverse to certain practices as people sometimes imply, at least in my part of America. I've been in a dozen or so parishes over the years, and I'd say that... 11/12 had pews; 11/12 had books in those pews; probably 9/12 had a priest with no facial hair or at most a goatee; probably 10/12 had kneelers; and I think you see where I'm going with this...  police

Yes, you were about to explain how the Orthodox Church is teetering on the heretical cliff, about to fall off into the abyss. Next, we'll be having jumbotrons and liturgical dancers. Leotards in HD, oh my!
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 AM »

I don't do much "inclusive" language.  I prefer people speak the truth straight out.
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 02:09:39 AM »

I can't remember the last time I was in an Orthodox parish that didn't have kneelers  angel

Well, in the four Antiochian and three Greek Orthodox parishes I have visited or been a member of, they have all had pews but no kneelers.  You can always identify the newest ex-Catholic converts: they are thee ones that say "Ouch!!" when they go to kneel down and go an extra 3 to 4 inches to the floor rather than to a spongy kneeler!  I remember the first time hitting the floor at my first Greek parish during the procession of icons at the day of Orthodoxy.  Wow, did that hurt, knee caps on marble!   
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