OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 09:07:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: John the "Baptist"?  (Read 1376 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,238


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: December 13, 2012, 07:30:18 PM »

This is something that I have been questioning for quite a while. Is it necessarily accurate in the English Gospels to say that St. John the "Baptist" actually Baptised people and Baptised Jesus? I know that many Protestants like to use this to support "Believers Baptism", but the reality is that Baptism as we know it did not even exist until after Jesus' Crucifixion. St. John's "Baptism" was actually just a Jewish mikvah--which was merely just a cleaning to attain ritual purity before entering the temple. Likewise, people got several mikvahs, whereas we only have ONE Baptism in Christ. Likewise, the purpose of Baptism is not to attain ritual purity like the mikvah, but to participate in Jesus' death so that we too could be resurrected and walk in the newness of like (Rom 6:4-5)--not to attain ritual purity. In reality, the only similarity between Baptism and the mikvah is that they both involve immersion. We shouldn't translate the Mikvah into Baptism because it is misleading, and I have no doubt that the majority Protestant translators behind the popular NIV translation purposely translated it as "Baptism" to try to discredit infant Baptism.

Thoughts?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 07:46:45 PM »

This is something that I have been questioning for quite a while. Is it necessarily accurate in the English Gospels to say that St. John the "Baptist" actually Baptised people and Baptised Jesus? I know that many Protestants like to use this to support "Believers Baptism", but the reality is that Baptism as we know it did not even exist until after Jesus' Crucifixion. St. John's "Baptism" was actually just a Jewish mikvah--which was merely just a cleaning to attain ritual purity before entering the temple. Likewise, people got several mikvahs, whereas we only have ONE Baptism in Christ. Likewise, the purpose of Baptism is not to attain ritual purity like the mikvah, but to participate in Jesus' death so that we too could be resurrected and walk in the newness of like (Rom 6:4-5)--not to attain ritual purity. In reality, the only similarity between Baptism and the mikvah is that they both involve immersion. We shouldn't translate the Mikvah into Baptism because it is misleading, and I have no doubt that the majority Protestant translators behind the popular NIV translation purposely translated it as "Baptism" to try to discredit infant Baptism.

Thoughts?

Hmm, in the Syriac tradition, we almost always call him "Mar Yuhannon Mamdana" or St. John the Baptist. So for me, he undoubtedly baptized Jesus.
Logged
Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,603


Great googly moogly!


« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 07:47:37 PM »

John the Baptist is known by that name because he introduced Baptism as we know it.

The fact that it was a Jewish Mikvah before him is only more reason why they called him the Baptist.
Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,238


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 07:50:14 PM »

Saying that St. John Baptised people before Jesus was crucified wouldn't make any sense at all, since Baptism is participating in His Crucifixion. How could we have participated in that before He was crucified? Likewise, how could Jesus Himself be "Baptised" before He was crucified and resurrected? Jesus doesn't need Baptism because He was going to be crucified and resurrected.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 08:10:41 PM »

In Coptic, too, he is called Iwannyc piref]wmc, which is "John the Baptist". (According to Crum, "refti" is "baptize", "pi-" is the article...not sure where "oms" comes from; I guess it's some kind of nominalizer.)
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2012, 08:28:26 PM »

Is it necessarily accurate in the English Gospels to say that St. John the "Baptist" actually Baptised people and Baptised Jesus?

His baptism wasn't the Spirit filled baptism into Christ that brings one into the Church, otherwise the disciple who knew John's baptism wouldn't have been rebaptized by apostles. John's batism was for the forgiveness of sins, and while Christian baptism is "for the remission of sins", it remits sins because of the uniting with in His death and resurrection, which John's baptism did not do.

Quote
I know that many Protestants like to use this to support "Believers Baptism",

How so? I don't see the connection, they would do better to use examples of Christian baptism from Acts.

As far as language goes, "baptize" means "to immerse". It's the word the gospels use to describe what John did. There is nothing wrong with calling him "the Baptist.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,260


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 11:10:34 PM »

If I may be permitted a little tongue and cheek ( Cheesy):

Since John's baptism for repentance was nowhere commanded in any scripture John knew (the Old Testament), and since Baptists are sola scripturists, John was no Baptist.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:11:00 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
OrthoNoob
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 993



« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 02:31:44 AM »

Saying that St. John Baptised people before Jesus was crucified wouldn't make any sense at all, since Baptism is participating in His Crucifixion. How could we have participated in that before He was crucified?

The same way the Apostles partook of the Bloodless Sacrifice prior to the Crucifixion?
Logged

http://avengingredhand.wordpress.com -- My blog

'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,213


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 03:03:23 AM »

Matthew 3:11:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,260


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2012, 03:00:41 PM »

Saying that St. John Baptised people before Jesus was crucified wouldn't make any sense at all, since Baptism is participating in His Crucifixion. How could we have participated in that before He was crucified?
Gk. baptizo simply means to immerse.

That John did baptize finds independent attestation in Josephus. http://www.josephus.org/JohnTBaptist.htm#Purification

Likewise, how could Jesus Himself be "Baptised" before He was crucified and resurrected? Jesus doesn't need Baptism because He was going to be crucified and resurrected.
During the blessing of the waters at Theophany our priest emphasizes that Christ's baptism by John was quite unlike John's baptism. With John's baptism of repentance the people were blessed, their sins being washed away- by the water. Christ's baptism was something entirely different. His baptism was not unto repentance, to wash away his sins, for he had none. Instead of being blessed by the waters, the waters were blessed by Jesus Christ.



He sanctified the waters, making them holy, preparing the way for our own holy baptism into His death:

"it is important to note that in Jesus’ baptism, the action of cleaning is reversed. Instead of being cleansed, Jesus Christ is one who cleanses. By His holiness, He purifies the waters that He enters.  The waters are now restored to their cleansing and life-giving power. The Blessing of the Waters is a remembrance of the miraculous event of the sanctifying of the waters of creation.  But this Orthodox service also extends its blessing in our time.  In Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church blesses the waters of earth that they may be a blessing to the Church, our homes, and the world." http://orthodoxway.tripod.com/id27.html
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 03:05:02 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,718


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2012, 03:04:28 PM »

Baptist is just an old way to spell Baptizer. It has nothing to do with the Baptist Church, which was founded many hundreds of years after the saint's lifetime.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 06:14:34 PM »

Mark the Evangelist mostly used the word Baptizer instead of Baptist. NET Bible has the following note:

While Matthew and Luke consistently use the noun βαπτίστης (baptisths, NET Bible Mark 1:4, footnote 9
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,213


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 10:25:31 PM »

Quote
βαπτίστης


The accent mark is in the wrong place. It should be on the final η. Linguistically, there is no distinction between "baptizer" and "baptist". Both words mean the same thing.
Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,022


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 11:05:18 PM »

James, you will find many cornerstones of Ukrainian, Russian or Rusyn Orthodox (and Greek Catholic as well) parishes dedicated to St. John in the American Midwest and northeast from the late 19th and early 20th century which read  "Святого Иоанна Крестителя" or "Svjatoho Ioanna Krestitela"/ Saint John the Baptist. Those folks neither had Protestant English bible translations nor were they influenced by them. They simply named their churches as they had in Europe for centuries - prior to and after the Reformation.

I'm not familiar with any called "Предтеча" or "Forerunner."
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 08:02:24 AM »

How old is the title "Forerunner"?
Logged

LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,213


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 08:04:40 AM »

How old is the title "Forerunner"?

As old as scripture.
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 08:09:13 AM »

Hebrews 6 (RSV)
Quote
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz′edek.


But this is in reference to Jesus.  Do you know where else?  Or would it be in the Greek OT?
Logged

Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 08:26:25 AM »

Actually, it was only Matthew and Luke who preferred using the word Baptist as a title. Mark the Evangelist, however, mostly used the word "Baptizer". NET Bible has the following note on Mark 1:4

While Matthew and Luke consistently use the noun βαπτίστης (baptisths, “[the] Baptist”) to refer to John, as a kind of a title, Mark prefers the substantival participle ὁ βαπτίζων (Jo baptizwn, “the one who baptizes, the baptizer”) to describe him (only twice does he use the noun [Mark 6:25; 8:28]).  (Footnote 9)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:30:34 AM by Theophilos78 » Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 08:27:12 AM »

Hebrews 6 (RSV)
Quote
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz′edek.


But this is in reference to Jesus.  Do you know where else?  Or would it be in the Greek OT?

Malachi 3:1 Behold I send my angel (=messenger), and he shall prepare the way before my face.

Malachi 4:5 Behold I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Mark 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first? 11 But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. 12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, But have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. 13 Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist.

There are lots of verses in the OT that speak of a messenger/angel hastily going before to announce the arrival of the Lord and prepare the way. Hence the title pro-dromos/prae-cursor, even if it doesn't appear as such in Scripture. 

Icons of St. John depict him with wings - as an "angel in the flesh", because of his ascetic life, but maybe also to link him with the above mentioned prophecies.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:28:15 AM by Romaios » Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 08:29:48 AM »

Hebrews 6 (RSV)
Quote
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz′edek.


But this is in reference to Jesus.  Do you know where else?  Or would it be in the Greek OT?

A word search shows that forerunner does not occur in the Tanakh. In the New Testament Yeshua is called forerunner in Hebrews 6:20 in addition to Yuhannan Mamdana, who was identified as forerunner in Luke 1:17. It is highly likely that the title forerunner was derived by the Church from this particular verse in the Gospel of Luke.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 08:37:11 AM »

Actually, it was only Matthew and Luke who preferred using the word Baptist as a title. Mark the Evangelist, however, mostly used the word "Baptizer". NET Bible has the following note on Mark 1:4

While Matthew and Luke consistently use the noun βαπτίστης (baptisths,   (Footnote 9)

Matthew and Luke use the noun βαπτιστής, not βαπτίστης.  Wink

The suffix -ιστής is always stressed.
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,213


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 08:41:32 AM »

Umm, Romaios, you must have missed post #12.  Smiley
Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 08:44:28 AM »

Umm, Romaios, you must have missed post #12.  Smiley

I didn't, but Theophilos must have - hence his post #17.  Smiley

And the only way to convey Greek accents is to stress them again and again.  Grin
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:49:44 AM by Romaios » Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,213


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 08:48:18 AM »


And the only way to convey Greek accents is to stress them again and again.

 laugh laugh laugh

Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 08:55:22 AM »

Thanks Romaios and Theophilos78. Smiley
Logged

Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2013, 09:02:07 AM »

Umm, Romaios, you must have missed post #12.  Smiley

I didn't, but Theophilos must have - hence his post #17.  Smiley

And the only way to convey Greek accents is to stress them again and again.  Grin

This is because post 12 is incomplete since the board went down last night right while I was trying to post it.  Grin

I simply copied that footnote from the NET Bible. They do not have Greek Orthodox editors.  Wink
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:05:35 AM by Theophilos78 » Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,715



« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2013, 09:39:05 AM »

In Greek Prodromos, 'forerunner', is often used.
Logged

On a OC.net diet.
Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 346



« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2013, 11:00:44 AM »

In Greek Prodromos, 'forerunner', is always used.
Fixed that for you.
It's much more common to name males "Forerunner" (Πρόδρομος) than "Baptist" (Βαπτιστής), or to build a Church dedicated to "St. John the Forerunner"; in fact I don't think I've ever heard of any Greek male named "Baptist" (like they do in France, "Jean-Baptiste", or in Spain, "Juan Bautista/Batista")
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:01:41 AM by Apostolos » Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.101 seconds with 56 queries.